I have read many articles regarding various states authorizing drivers licenses to illegal aliens. It appears that this a very polarizing issue, and I have not found a thread here at to discuss this issue specifically. By typing "drivers license illegal" into Live Search, I came up with almost 4 million hits. This is an issue that I don't understand why there is a debate, but I am sure my fellow debaters on can show me why!

Questions for debate:

1. Should states allow illegal aliens to recieve state issued driver's licenses (or state IDs)?

2. Why or why not allow illegal aliens to recieve driver's licenses (or state IDs)?

This is really one question:

1. Should states allow illegal aliens to receive state issued driver's licenses (or state IDs) why or why not?

So the answer is no. If you are an illegal alien you should receive no State issued anything, no services, no benefit - nothing. If you're here illegally and working you should be sent home and the company or people who've hired you should be fined heavily.

I mean the title is really descriptive... Illegal Immigrant, Illegal Alien.... ILLEGAL. This ain't rocket science.

If you're an illegal alien you clearly want to be here. I applaud you and your efforts. Now go home and do it the right way. I don't care what country you're from or what skill set you bring. It's not that difficult to come to America legally. I work with a slew of people from Ireland, Germany, India, Pakistan and Mexico. They're all fine individuals and the all have legal papers. Last week one got his US Citizenship and we had quite a bash for him. He deserves to be an American as much and probably more than a lot of people who lucked out and were born here.

1. Should states allow illegal aliens to recieve state issued driver's licenses (or state IDs)?

2. Why or why not allow illegal aliens to recieve driver's licenses (or state IDs)?

What I see here is a question of morality versus advantage. On one hand, illegal immigrants make up a sustantial part of our nation's working poor. From an ethical standpoint, they deserve a certain level of nationalization, even something as tawdry as a driver's license.

Now, from a national standpoitn we all know that's never going to happen. We cannot afford to give even an inch of authenticity to illegal aliens, if we wish to keep exploiting them as we do. and in the end, national priorities overtake ehtical ones. We did not become a world superpower by being nice people. We became as we are by exploiting people.

Screw that! Your viewpoint is God damned bumper sticker. If it's so horrible in the US explain why these people are willing to die to get here to work. I got guys here from Pakistan making 3,000 (three thousand) times more than they were making in Pakistan. We're hardly hardly exploiting these people. You have no fraking idea what you're talking about. Your line of thought drives me up a wall. You have no idea what you're talking about. How many people are you employing, how many people are you charged with hiring, what the Hell gives you the idea that we're exploiting workers in America? Please, I beg you bring up Wal-Mart. PLEASE.

Alright, baphomet bring it on.

Personally, I'm, with you. Illegals are the perfect fodder for our industry. We don;t pay their healthcare, but they pay our taxes! ANd, though the bleeding-hearts in this country detest that, I think its fantastic. We have an entire subrace of slaves to do our bidding.

But don;t label it as right. Rather, disregard morality completely. We do what we want, to whoever we want, mexicans, Iraquis, candians, whatever. Who needs conscience to get in our way?

NO they “deserve” to go the hell home. The ethics are clear. They are criminals who should NOT be here.





Give me a break. We don’t need them. We let in legally 3,000 + people a year. We can replace every one of them and we can pay the legal aliens or citizens minimum wage – as REQUIRED BY LAW.

We will see a price rise in some vegetables and maybe wine. Big deal.

On the other hand the people who replace then will most likely not be sending 50 billion a year out of the US – but spending it here.

You have it exactly backwards. It's the exploiters who are all in favor of legitimizing their presence here and encouraging others to come. You don't see them out in the forefront demanding that illegals not be given various citizens' privileges.

Then again, you don't see them petitioning for the right to pay their illegal employees' health and dental insurance, now do you?

Get real. Name a manual labor job, and we've got mexicans in it somewhere. Mexicans who do it cheaply, and don;t complain when we mistreat them, for fear of deportation, or worse. Hmm...now what social subgroup does that remind you of?

And, like you say, they're here illegally. THey deserve to get thrown the hell out of our country. But they haven;t yet. Haven't you ever wondered why? If we really didn't need them, why are we still using them?

Because they're cheap. Because we can force them to do all sorts of low-down dirty work. ANd god help us, no matter what happens, we patriotic youngbloods are going to keep 'em that way. Can i get a "god bless america" here, please?

That's fascinating, maybe you could start a thread about that. Too bad this one's about drivers' licenses, remember? Would you mind explaining how giving illegals these licenses would make things less convenient for the exploiters? You'd think they'd be all in a snit over the idea if that was the case. Instead, the ones most fervently against the idea all seem to be people who are very much the enemy of those who knowingly employ illegals. Who'da thunk it?

Driver's licences are just the start; where does it stop?! First partial amnesty, then permanent, before you know it, you're giving those dirty mexica free passage through this country!

I really don't see how driver's licences help illegal employers. Oh maybe in the transportation department, but how many illegals can even afford to buy a car? The more authentic these illegals get, the closer and closer they come, to the point where we're actually forced to give them rights! Now isn;t that just terrible?

I'm not saying that they're right to be in this country. But aren't they just a little bit pitiful? Living in tents, filthy, unwashed, and outlawed, doesn't that just rub 'ya the wrong way?

Not really, first, because they made the decision to sneak across the border, not me. They made the decision themselves.

Secondly, not sure that I have seen all illegal aliens living in tents, being unwashed. I live in Iowa, meat packing central. Not many tents except put up around Saylorville Lake at the campgrounds.

Needless to say, this still doesn't explain why anyone that is here illegally should get to recieve a government issued ID card or drivers license. Can we compare illegal aliens (those that have entered this country illegally, or in simpler terms broken the law) to someone that has a warrent for their arrest for any number of non violent crimes? If someone goes to get their drivers license and they have a warrent for their arrest, would they be arrested? Why the exemption for illegal aliens? Maybe this doesn't happen, but as a tax paying citizen, I would hold my LEA in contempt if they had a wanted criminal standing in front of them, and did not arrest them. I just can't wrap my head around the concept of allowing those that are here illegally (wanted criminals) into a government building that has LEO stationed there, and not getting arrested. Isn't that a waste of taxpayer money?

If it was so terrible then the exploitive employers you refer to would show some signs of worrying. They don't seem to be. It's far more likely (to put it mildly) that they know perfectly well that giving illegals licenses and other government bennies will only make the U.S. more attractive to illegals, and therefore improve their bottom line.

It's kinda ridiculous that I should even have to be explaining this. It's also bizarre that anyone would seriously advocate such a schizophrenic approach to immigration law.

1. Should states allow illegal aliens to recieve state issued driver's licenses (or state IDs)?

It should be up to the state to determine and not the federal government. Some states may wish to provide licenses and others not. Let democracy run its course.

2. Why or why not allow illegal aliens to recieve driver's licenses (or state IDs)?

I've only run across one argument against giving illegal aliens driver's licenses... wait for it... let me look around... I know it's here somewhere. Oh yeah, here it is: they're here illegally. This isn't a very convincing argument as far as I'm concerned but then I've also been known to speed from time to time...

As it is, I think there's a great risk associated with having unlicensed and therefore uninsured motorists on the road. Not having insured motorists will drive up the cost of insurance for everyone. Insurance companies need to cover the risk somehow.

I forget; sarcasm is often hard to convey across the dry expanse of the internet.

Blackstone, i am mocking the schizophrenic approach of which you are so skeptical. I simply find it funny that these immigrants are being pushed out from every direction, and still they do not leave. Please, are you trying to tell me that the impoverished illegal masses are able to stand against the deportative (neologism) might of ICE?

If we truly wanted them to leave, they'd be gone.

Please tell me you're capable of understanding the very essential difference between doing something illegally and actually being here illegally. The latter is a continuously illegal action. It would be like giving you a license to speed while at the same time making it illegal for you to do it.

But I guess then we can at least have insured speeders...

Yes, the difference is that speeders run the risk of killing themselves and other people on the road. An illegal immigrant on the other hand isn't running the risk of killing anyone by being here illegally.

But I guess then we can at least have unlicensed drivers who happen to be illegal immigrants

We are really debating whether or not to license illegals for the purpose of having people here illegally, but driving legally, so we can save on insurance? This is the argument? Really? THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY! Them driving should be our lowest priority. Getting them out of our country and convicting those that employ, house and otherwise enable them to be here should be our priority. This argument that we should give them licenses to ensure our insurance rates go down is a ridiculous diversion of the actual issue at hand. If they weren't here illegally, we wouldn't have to worry about them driving illegally without insurance. A state giving illegals drivers licenses only further enables people to not follow the laws of our land, and to continue to come here illegally. Why would I come here legally if I can get everything I need from the state, and not have to pay for any of it?

First, this is an issue for the states and not the federal government. You're, of course, welcome to try to get your state to not provide licenses to illegal immigrants.

Second, licensing drivers says nothing about citizenship. But, looking at the California DMV page on driver's licenses, I see legal presence requirements. Clearly, there are many ways to prove your eligibility for getting a driver's license. It looks like in California though you need to be here legally in some form or another when you get your license; it doesn't seem to say anything about what happens when your legal status expires.

Third, you can ALL CAPS as much as you like but there are clearly different types of illegality. It is illegal to speed, for example. It's ILLEGAL TO SPEED (heh, make it any easier ). So, if you speed, you are committing an illegal act. It is illegal. A speeder is being illegal.

Fourth, yes, insurance is a big concern. Having a set of drivers on the road who cannot get insurance raises the costs for everyone. It doesn't just raise insurance costs. It raises medical costs. It raises litigation costs. I don't like it when my costs are increased because we want to "spank" those illegal immigrants for being illegally present.

Which goes to the fifth point... Really, the reason why this is a debate at all is because you want to "spank" those dang illegal immigrants for illegally being in this country illegally. You want to create such a disincentive to come into this country that you're willing to drive every "legal's" cost of living upwards. But, California doesn't permit illegal immigrants to drive, yet they are driving. So, all you're doing is making yourself feel, what? better? more self-righteous? I'm not sure. I think someone with a degree in psychology could better explain the pathology being exhibited here.

Well, so it's been claimed, anyway. And yet you've admitted to doing it.


Well, neither does a shoplifter or a tax cheat. But even that's neither here nor there. It just amazes me that there are people who can't see the inherent absurdity of saying that it's illegal for a person to be in this country, and saying we should legitimate it at the same time. Almost makes me wonder what's been wafting in the air lately.

And I said it was a federal issue when?


Yes a speeder is breaking the law, but there isn't any provisions for exportation for speeding. Speeding does have it's penalties that are usually enforced when LEO catch them. We have laws dictating what happens to people that are here illegally. They need to be enforced, we don't need to be giving them reasons to stay.


We wouldn't have those issues with the illegal aliens if we just enforced the laws and kicked them back to where they came from. Again, enabling them by giving them benefits isn't going to solve the problem, keeping them out of the country illegally, and making them come back legally solves all of the problems you listed. Why is that so bad?


Thanks for the evaluation, but you are off. If these people came here legally, they could get licenses and insurance, thus solving all of the issues you claim are being solved by giving them drivers licenses. By not enforcing the laws that are in place before they got here, we have allowed the issues that you keep bringing up to increase. It has nothing to do with them having licenses, it has everything to do with them not coming to this country legally.

Yes, I do want to "spank" those dang illegal immigrants for illegally being in this country illegally, back to where they came from. When they come back to our country legally, I will be here with welcoming arms ready to give them the same opportunity as every other American with education, jobs, insurance and drivers licenses.

We agree here. Good.


I don't understand what you're trying to say here. There are different ways of enforcing the law depending on the transgression? Um. Okay. I agree.


Fair enough. Let's do that. What does this have to do with driver's licenses? You mean by giving them licenses and not kicking them out of the country when they apply? All that will do is make it so they don't get licenses but drive anyway. And they'll drive without insurance.


Not licensing a driver isn't going to prevent that person from driving. So, they still get the "benefit" of driving. What other benefits were you referring to?


We're talking in circles. Illegal immigrants will drive with or without license and thus with or without insurance. Solve that problem and then we can discuss further.

I will just cut through all of the other 'stuff' and get to the point of the entire discussion. By giving illegals licenses, we are encouraging more people to come to this country illegally. Instead, if we enforced the laws regarding immigration and deported those that are here illegally, we wouldn't be telling them that we would love to have them come here without consequence. Employers are already doing that, why have the states do it as well?

Ya right except that when you get on a plane the “license” is your form of identification. So I would like YOU to be on the plane with all the bogus licenses. With people we know squat about except that they are ILLEGAL.


And they can go to any state with this piece of crap license and use it to board planes or for any other purpose that requires identification. Great idea sir.

LOL

Such a basic concept, isn't it? It just comes down to this: Are we serious when we say that their presence here is illegal, or is just a big joke that politicians like to tell people? Those are the only two choices, and the question needs to be answered unambiguously by the-ones-who-know-who-they-are before any serious discussion can even begin.

Wish granted! Random spot checks for valid licenses. Or even checks during routine traffic stops--easier to check whether a person's license is valid than to have to check on their immigration status at these same times. Please continue your excellent discussion.

Right.
This is a weird spot where I've become slightly liberal, but for practical purposes not out of moralitly.

I believe that illegal immigrants should have some way to begin the documentation process. In Texas, as you know, the drivers lic are sent to the home address and not issued on the spot.

Along with the license, we could send resident alien paperwork. If they get pulled over without beginning the documentation process, put them in an tent city jail in E Texas farming until they've worked off their debt. Then force them to be documented and pay taxes like the rest of us.

My brother is a brick mason in Shreveport, La. Even in Shreveport, this is an issue. No documentation in any industry makes it easy to take cash payments at a discount. If they're forced to be documented and pay taxes (and be subject to the legislation of the IRS... which WILL come pick you up for non-payment), chances are better that at least the likelihood of being "better" documented presents itself.

We cannot build a wall they can't dig under. We cannot put 2500 agents shoulder to shoulder on the border. We can't have constant surveilance of our coasts. So long as there is work in the US, which there will be, aliens will immigrate legally and illegally both. The notion and goal should be to "nudge" the line closer to legal in my mind. At least then they help bear the tax burden that provides basic services and they're less of a financial strain on a community.

I'm probably with you on this. I have no problem whatsoever with immigrants--we're all immigrants from somewhere. I also harbor no gloom or doom scenario regarding illegal immigrants. They have simply skirted a documentation process that needs to be completed. Anything that works towards that goal is fine by me. Conversely, anything that works against that goal I have issues with (ie, anything that lets illegal immigrants continue to function normally in our society without having to complete that documentation).

I agree with both you, Hobbes and aevans176. Licensing people is not a moral issue and never was. It's a practical issue. Anything we can do to encourage legal immigration is good, but let's not use the wrong tools for the job.

The problem I have with this is that it allows them to enter the country illegally. I know that right now we have illegals streaming across the border, but that doesn't justify not enforcing the laws that are on the books, but that is my point exactly. We need to enforce the laws preventing those from crossing the border, as well as sweep across the nation to pick up illegals and send them packing. By allowing them to come to the country before beginning the documentation process as you have suggested, that allows them to be here long enough to do whatever harm they want if that is why they cross the border.

You lost me here Hobbs and we usually agree. If they are “illegal” they should not be allowed to cut the “line” and they can and should go back to Mexico and come in legally like millions of others have done. THEN they should be paid minimum wage which would be their right.

Companies that hire illegal aliens should be finned millions and their CEOs led out in handcuffs. This would end the problem in short order.

States like Okalahoma that just passed tough laws are seeing it happen. Illegal aliens are LEAVING because they know they will not find work and they cannot hide because local cops CAN and WLL enforce the immigration laws that our government is not.

Let’s hope this spreads.