Full Version: American Dream Eluding Blacks
According to this article
Questions for Debate:
1 - Can this situation be boiled down to lifestyle choices? How?
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
3 - What can be said about the decline of economic well-being for black men? Why has it declined in the last 30 years when many economic indicators have risen?
QUOTE(Reuters)
Black Americans are failing to climb the social ladder, while a worrying number born into the middle classes are now actually poorer than their parents, according to a study released on Tuesday.
QUOTE(Reuters)
Family incomes have grown for both groups in the last 30 years, partly because many more women are now working.
But this has not closed the race income gap. Median black family incomes in 2004 were $35,000, compared with $60,000 for whites of similar age, and almost one-quarter of blacks live below federally defined poverty lines, three times more than whites.
Part of the problem has been the decline in the relative economic well-being of black men, which got worse between 1974 and 2004. In fact, black men now in their 30s earn roughly 12 percent less than their fathers' generation.
Another factor may be the lower level of marriage in the black American population, leading to more single-parent families supported by one income.
So not only are black Americans still poorer than whites, the chances are high that they will remain that way.
"In terms of absolute, relative and integrated mobility measures, white children have substantially more upward mobility than black children of comparable incomes," she said.
But this has not closed the race income gap. Median black family incomes in 2004 were $35,000, compared with $60,000 for whites of similar age, and almost one-quarter of blacks live below federally defined poverty lines, three times more than whites.
Part of the problem has been the decline in the relative economic well-being of black men, which got worse between 1974 and 2004. In fact, black men now in their 30s earn roughly 12 percent less than their fathers' generation.
Another factor may be the lower level of marriage in the black American population, leading to more single-parent families supported by one income.
So not only are black Americans still poorer than whites, the chances are high that they will remain that way.
"In terms of absolute, relative and integrated mobility measures, white children have substantially more upward mobility than black children of comparable incomes," she said.
Questions for Debate:
1 - Can this situation be boiled down to lifestyle choices? How?
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
3 - What can be said about the decline of economic well-being for black men? Why has it declined in the last 30 years when many economic indicators have risen?
1 - Can this situation be boiled down to lifestyle choices? How?
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
Family, family, family or more specifically -- Marriage, marriage, marriage.
Yes, the statistics cited give median family incomes, but the black family has been splintered and is not commonly headed by a woman with no man in her life. Two thirds of black children are in single parent households and 85% of those are headed by single mothers.
The power of the black father
Study on Wealth and marriage
See also: Ths shocking state of black marriage
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
Family, family, family or more specifically -- Marriage, marriage, marriage.
Yes, the statistics cited give median family incomes, but the black family has been splintered and is not commonly headed by a woman with no man in her life. Two thirds of black children are in single parent households and 85% of those are headed by single mothers.
The power of the black father
Study on Wealth and marriage
QUOTE
What impact do marriage and divorce have on wealth? US data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY79), which tracks individuals in their 20s, 30s and early 40s, show that over time single respondents slowly increase their net worth. Married respondents experience per person net worth increases of 77 percent over single respondents. Additionally, their wealth increases on average 16 percent for each year of marriage. Divorced respondents’ wealth starts falling four years before divorce and they experience an average wealth drop of 77 percent. While in percentage terms divorce hurts women more than men, the absolute difference is relatively small in the US.
See also: Ths shocking state of black marriage
QUOTE
But the slight increase is only one cheerful note in an otherwise mournful tune. The bad news is that the number of Black married couples is only half the number of married Whites, and the situation is getting worse. In 1963 when Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. gave his "I Have a Dream" speech, more than 70 percent of all Black families were headed by married couples. In 2002 that number was 48 percent.
1 - Can this situation be boiled down to lifestyle choices? How?
I imagine they play a part, but I don't imagine it would be a very big part, and I can't think of any way to boil "it" down to make it fit the idea that people's social mobility is solely their own responsibility.
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
The perception that social mobility in the general US population is very large in the first place - it isn't. The biggest indicator of the peak social status of any random American is not intelligence or ability or application (or race, for that matter, though this probably still plays a bigger part than the first three); it is the peak social status of one's parents. This is also largely true here in the UK (and we've still got an aristocracy to use as an excuse - what's yours?
)
The Horatio Alger myth is just that.
Now, in a capitalist economy of almost 300 million people it's going to be really easy to find enough people who have managed to buck the system to confirm that social mobiliy is alive and well and that anyone can do or have anything they want provided they work hard enough. That's not the picture of a mobile society, that's confirmation bias.
Why? Because we all know people who work really hard and haven't clawed their way up to be CEO/movie star/billionaire/whatever. You can't get that kind of success without working hard (unless your folks did, eh Paris?) but success does not automatically follow from hard work.
Someone once said that success is the point where hard work coincides with opportunity (for which read luck - and only lucky people believe that they make their own). My point is that you need BOTH, and in a society where the poor generally are marginalised and excluded, opportunities are just that little bit scarcer for the poor than for everyone else. And, where disproportionate numbers of poor people are black, black people are disproportionately less likely to succeed.
Parenting must play the part, but if the entire black population of North America got married for life tomorrow and raised a whole decent honest crime-free children to mature hard-working welfare-shy adulthood ('cos none of that happens today, of course
) American would be no more of a mobile society in 20 years than it is now. (That is, if that's the ONLY thing that changed.)
3 - What can be said about the decline of economic well-being for black men? Why has it declined in the last 30 years when many economic indicators have risen?
I'm guessing, but I'd say that the economic well-being of the numeric majority of black men 20 or 30 years ago was more likely to be driven by the old-style manufacturing industry that has mostly been outsourced these days. Ghettoisation has meant that new replacement industries (e.g. IT, finance, service sector generally) have been slow to come into predominantly poor blue-collar areas across the board (black and white - are the mostly white coal-mining or steel-making areas of, say, Pennsylvania better or worse off than 30 years ago?).
So unskilled and semi-skilled labour, of which black men were disproportionately part (for many reasons, not limited to but including dysfunctional families and - where did that elephant come from? - racism! Gasp! I said it!) has been hit hardest by the shift towards a "knowledge economy" from a manufacturing one.
QED.
Ok, maybe not, but there must be some element of truth here.
I imagine they play a part, but I don't imagine it would be a very big part, and I can't think of any way to boil "it" down to make it fit the idea that people's social mobility is solely their own responsibility.
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
The perception that social mobility in the general US population is very large in the first place - it isn't. The biggest indicator of the peak social status of any random American is not intelligence or ability or application (or race, for that matter, though this probably still plays a bigger part than the first three); it is the peak social status of one's parents. This is also largely true here in the UK (and we've still got an aristocracy to use as an excuse - what's yours?
)The Horatio Alger myth is just that.
Now, in a capitalist economy of almost 300 million people it's going to be really easy to find enough people who have managed to buck the system to confirm that social mobiliy is alive and well and that anyone can do or have anything they want provided they work hard enough. That's not the picture of a mobile society, that's confirmation bias.
Why? Because we all know people who work really hard and haven't clawed their way up to be CEO/movie star/billionaire/whatever. You can't get that kind of success without working hard (unless your folks did, eh Paris?) but success does not automatically follow from hard work.
Someone once said that success is the point where hard work coincides with opportunity (for which read luck - and only lucky people believe that they make their own). My point is that you need BOTH, and in a society where the poor generally are marginalised and excluded, opportunities are just that little bit scarcer for the poor than for everyone else. And, where disproportionate numbers of poor people are black, black people are disproportionately less likely to succeed.
Parenting must play the part, but if the entire black population of North America got married for life tomorrow and raised a whole decent honest crime-free children to mature hard-working welfare-shy adulthood ('cos none of that happens today, of course
) American would be no more of a mobile society in 20 years than it is now. (That is, if that's the ONLY thing that changed.)3 - What can be said about the decline of economic well-being for black men? Why has it declined in the last 30 years when many economic indicators have risen?
I'm guessing, but I'd say that the economic well-being of the numeric majority of black men 20 or 30 years ago was more likely to be driven by the old-style manufacturing industry that has mostly been outsourced these days. Ghettoisation has meant that new replacement industries (e.g. IT, finance, service sector generally) have been slow to come into predominantly poor blue-collar areas across the board (black and white - are the mostly white coal-mining or steel-making areas of, say, Pennsylvania better or worse off than 30 years ago?).
So unskilled and semi-skilled labour, of which black men were disproportionately part (for many reasons, not limited to but including dysfunctional families and - where did that elephant come from? - racism! Gasp! I said it!) has been hit hardest by the shift towards a "knowledge economy" from a manufacturing one.
QED.
Ok, maybe not, but there must be some element of truth here.
1 - Can this situation be boiled down to lifestyle choices? How?
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
I agree with Amlord, a lot of it is due to black children growing up without fathers. There's a vicious circle of crime, incarceration, unemployment, and unmarriagiability.
It seems to me that it's a bit too easy to dismiss this as "lifestyle choices." It's a complex social pathology.
3 - What can be said about the decline of economic well-being for black men? Why has it declined in the last 30 years when many economic indicators have risen?
I think the decline of manufacturing jobs is a big part of it. As global trade has increased, and manufacturing has moved to countries with cheaper labor, there are fewer low-skill jobs available here. There are still some that can't be exported -- construction, cooking, cleaning, landscaping. They don't pay nearly as well as they used to, probably because employers discovered they could hire illegal aliens to do them.
2 - What would you specifically point to the problem being - what is the biggest hurdle?
I agree with Amlord, a lot of it is due to black children growing up without fathers. There's a vicious circle of crime, incarceration, unemployment, and unmarriagiability.
It seems to me that it's a bit too easy to dismiss this as "lifestyle choices." It's a complex social pathology.
3 - What can be said about the decline of economic well-being for black men? Why has it declined in the last 30 years when many economic indicators have risen?
QUOTE(Julian @ Nov 15 2007, 11:17 AM) 
I'm guessing, but I'd say that the economic well-being of the numeric majority of black men 20 or 30 years ago was more likely to be driven by the old-style manufacturing industry that has mostly been outsourced these days. Ghettoisation has meant that new replacement industries (e.g. IT, finance, service sector generally) have been slow to come into predominantly poor blue-collar areas across the board (black and white - are the mostly white coal-mining or steel-making areas of, say, Pennsylvania better or worse off than 30 years ago?).
I think the decline of manufacturing jobs is a big part of it. As global trade has increased, and manufacturing has moved to countries with cheaper labor, there are fewer low-skill jobs available here. There are still some that can't be exported -- construction, cooking, cleaning, landscaping. They don't pay nearly as well as they used to, probably because employers discovered they could hire illegal aliens to do them.
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