In the "gen-y" thread, it has been mentioned that there is "no score kept" at games and what not- and one member erroneously thought it was because of some liberal "barney moment" were it was all about hugs and wuvvies

the truth of the matter is- it came about because of parents over-competitiveness at the game- and actual riots have occured because of this issue at games where the kids were as young as 6!!

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/schoo...lence06-07.html

October 27, 2006: Las Cruces, NM

A 14-year-old male was shot in the leg during a high school football game. The shot reportedly came from four males in the parking lot near the stands where the victim was shot. Police believe the incident was gang-related.

The above incident my wife was a witness, while she was on vacation visiting family last year. She said the gang was called out there to shoot this dude because he was good at carrying the ball and was winning games, and an opposing player's father that has gang connections didn't like that!




http://www.kidzworld.com/article/7111-when...-parents-attack

When Sports Parents Attack!

Angry Coach
If you play school sports or are on any other organized sports team, you probably know how important parents are. They pay for your sports gear, they drive you to games and they help with coaching. But sometimes parents get a little too intense at games and forget about the basic rules of sportsmanship. From tackling players on the field to punching out refs, find out what happens in cases when sports parents attack!


My wife is from Los Cruces New Mexico, and they had to stop taking scores at her high school softball team games- because there would be shootings and stabbings after games, targeting the winning team!



So my question is-

Is the idea of NOT keeping score, declaring no winner or no loser the answer to combat parental over-competitiveness and violence at games, or should there be another solution?

Excellent topic CR!. I wish we had a towel waving smilie, I'd post it right ---> <-----.



LOL-Thanks, coffee is now splattered all over the screen and keyboard.

I'll have you know that Barney is located at this liberal's house. After each soccer goal scored, we huddle up the kids and in relation to the goal just scored, we ask: "How does that make you feel?" We then explore with the 5 year olds how the ball is a metaphor for the proletariat, being kicked by a patriarchal, hegemonic force that vicariously stands for fascism and systematic classist oppression. We then lead a sit-down strike of the insensitive and violent game and go home to eat tofu to our heart's content, all the while, wearing birkenstocks and munching on granola bars...organic thank you.




I don't believe that the primary reason for not keeping score has to do with helicopter parents and their combativeness. The Boston Globe has a good article pointing out that the primary reason for instituting this kind of thing is to drill into the minds of kids, that winning and competitiveness are not everything. Irate parents appears to be of secondary importance in this. I can't help but think that it's more about protecting the little one's "self-steem" as opposed to controlling out of control parents.

Clealy, the problem is helicopter parents-consider the following:

Father hits coach with a bat after daughter is suspended one game for attending prom, rather than attend a game on the same night.

parent tackles 13 year old for a late hit on his son.

Dad attacks referre who was too "rough" on his son.-VIDEO FOOTAGE!!!!

Irate soccer mom stops soccer match as melee takes over game.

Pee-wee football parent fight-VIDEO FOOTAGE

Parent soccer fight

Soccer dad arrested for assault

I believe a more effective strategy would be to utilize a parent/spectator honor code, as well as some sort of grievance procedure. Once parents are trained in this, perhaps their rage can be guided or more easily handled.

for kids below the age of 8, when the listening skills and hand/foot motor skills , keeping score is really not neccesary, and score was kept in the past either out of habit or for parents that are living vicariously through thier kids.

I saw this for the first time in YMCA basketball for my daughter- when they really didn't even know how to score, much less WHY they needed to score

And well, after that, barney in his birkenstocks invaded the court and led the sit-in.

but pretty much after 8 years old, the lack of score keeping is really more to do with bad sportmanship on the part of parents.

BTW- they stopped keeping score at soccer games here for 8 years old and up after one of those nice riots erupted.

Seriously Nebraska, if you are OK with that "ref" picking that boy up by the face mask and you think the father overreacted... well then.. just wow.

That video had nothing to do with keeping score and everything to do with the "ref" being in the wrong by the way he lifted the boy with his face mask.

For the record. I would have knocked that ref's lights out.

I think that is also the problem- when refs make bad calls or do something wrong to a kid like that- it escalates an already tense situation. Eveyone has lost sight of the kids "just having fun" part of the equation- including, in this instance, the ref.

No matter the time and place, a father must ALWAYS protect his child. And if anyone ever lifts my child by the head(face mask). Then they will pay for those actions.

I agree- the ref should have been charged with assault- NOT the father.

That being said- my point is that even the refs are getting out of control here, and if these were isolated incidents, we wouldn't be needing no-score games!

My wife also pointed out that in high school sports in NM, the refs were being bribed by various adult parents NOT for gambling or making money- but so thier kids team would win! Competitiveness run amok is the thing here- we have taken something fairly pure and nice, like a child's game, and made it a life changing issue, so that even a win can be dangerous for somebody!

Is the idea of NOT keeping score, declaring no winner or no loser the answer to combat parental over-competitiveness and violence at games, or should there be another solution?

This solution is punishing the wrong people, no matter how well intended. The children who strive to excel, to push themselves to attain goals are the losers with this solution. Competition is healthy, parental rage is not. But not keeping score doesn't quell idiocy, it just punishes all parties. This falls into the same catagory as the 'mercy rule'........dumb.

I hear you- completely- but what is the alternative? We aren't talking one or two bad apples here- we have ALOT of poeple involved here.

Ban overly agressive parents from watching and their kids from playing. Solution seems easy enough to me. What do we do when anyone acts like this, for whatever reason?

in most of the cases- there are so many out of control parents- that the only other alternative is to cancel sports completely. the examples Nebraska pointed out are the most extreme, and most news worthy- but, like one of his links pointed out- there are such huge consequences to the family over sports- many see it as the only way for thier kid to go to college-

but in cases around the nation- it is seen as the only alternative to completely getting rid of the league or sport completely- because the bad behavior is so all pervasive.

I admit I don't have a solution, other than parental vigilantism - parents taking care of parents.

But I truly don't believe that making events scoreless will solve the problem either. The parents in question, I suspect, get enraged when there occurs a perceived slight against their child, by either referee or other players. I don't seee how the score comes into play, logically. These cretins are going to get ruffled when such an event occurs, regardless of the score. Some sort of disrespect against their esteem, projected onto their child.

Well, there has been a pretty concerted effort to keep this behavior to a minimum- and really, if it were an isolated problem- it wouldn't really BE a problem.

I know, after a near soccer riot here, for under 8 year olds- they did away with score keeping- the W is the issue- NOT neccesarily the score itself- when the other side gets the 'L" on thier column, they start PERCIEVING all kinds of slights that made thier kids get the "L".

I mean, for gawds sake- one parent KILLED another parent in a 'friendly" hockey game!

It seems to have had some calming effect in those leagues where they have said "no Ws, no Ls for either team, ever"- in places like Los Cruces- though, the gang activity is still quite high- in El Paso and Los Cruces they have put in the "no win-no loss, everybody is a winner" due to the pervasive violence or threats of violence- and it appears to have worked.

In the 4-8 year old category- once again, I have no problem with the "no scoring" thing- they are there to have fun, everybody gets the ball equally (or play time, or whatever) and the parents are free to have some 1:1 tutoring/coaching if the parents want that for thier kid.

It has alot to do with relieving the pressure in the end. Pressure is taken off coaches to stop the "win at all costs" stuff we see today, pressure off the kids for the "you need to win, every time" and pressure off the parents to see thier "investment in my kids future" pay off, immediately.

At the younger age groups- they really don't need a score- they need to have fun, learn to listen to the coach, get in the basics of the sport.

I do remember at the YMCA games there were about 3-4 sets of parents that were upset at the lack of score-keeping, the lack of a win-loss record, and the "everybody gets to try" attitude in the 4-6 group that my daughter was in. The kids had a blast though, and there was not a frowny face to be found, anywhere. Except for those parents that were really disappointed in the lack of a W-L record, and you could see the pressure they were putting on the kids to be extremely aggressive- which is good when you are in junior varsity and above, but not really age -appropriate for the younger athlete.

At :18 of it, it does appear as if the boy is lifted up with his helmet. I think the ref grabbed the shoulder pads and used his leverage under the boys helmet to prop him up. Still a bad thing.

So what's the right way to handle it Sleeper? Is the parent justified in storming the field, which only got him in trouble and restrained? Or would you rather have him go through a grievance process to make sure the guy never refs again? Why not sue him for assault? Wouldn't it be a good thing for the kid to sit in a meeting and courtroom and see how a civilized society deals with malcontents and others who "dont' get it"? Or do we teach him that if you are wronged, that anything and everything is fair game? Isn't that part of the problem here? Namely, the lack of intelligent people(i.e.-adults) to adequately handle emotionally volatile situations?

Is the idea of NOT keeping score, declaring no winner or no loser the answer to combat parental over-competitiveness and violence at games, or should there be another solution?

This, other than from the initial thread this one spun off from, is the first time I've heard of such a practice. Guess I haven't been paying attention. Shame on me.

I played football in junior and senior high school. We lost just about every time, guess we didn't have the right contacts in the Northern Minnesota Mafia. Or maybe we just sucked. Whatever, it got to the point where I lost interest in earning that letter jacket and went off to be a motorcycle guy and woodlands wanderer. It wasn't really a clique but certainly a different take on the whole high school experience.

Competition then became how good are you anyway? Can you find your way out of a swamp without a compass or map? Can you find something to eat if you're hungry? How about outrunning a tornado on that little rice burner of yours? Ready for frostbite? Make a fire with wet wood? That sort of thing, competition in a way and the score is whether you survive or not.

While having fun too.

So I'll suggest something like that as a substitution for organized sports, which seems to have something in common with organized religion. They're both organized. Life isn't like that.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on one account. A referee that slings a child to the ground or strikes a child will and should incite fury in any parent. If my child was in a game and was physically manhandled by a referee, I'm coming onto the field. It's really that simple. I've seen video footage of referees getting out of hand. Slapping kids, slamming them, and all sorts of other crazy stuff. You can't blame a parent for jumping into the fracas because the supposed mediator starts slapping their kid around.