So i am reading a debate, and once again, someone is espousing about liberals like Michael Moore who teach people to hate America. And I am dumbfounded as to how people even thinks on these terms, but it is the case. So I would like to debate this idea of loving your country, and conversely the idea of people hating this country.

I think it a well established trend that conservatives label liberals, especially outspoken liberals, of hating America, more than liberals label conservatives of hating America.

Questions for debate

America can be many things, how do you define it?? Borders, Government policies, Ideals and principles, people, something all together other or a combination of certain thing(name them).

How do we determine when some one hates America?

What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?

America is a brand, a team, whatever... it's a thing. So how do you hate it? You hate the thing. Not every part of it.

I hate the New York Islanders. I scream for career anding injuries to all of them on the ice. I hope that their plane goes down in a ball of fire. I hate them. I can't stand them. I don't know any of them personally. Hell I couldn't name 4 people off the roster this year but I'll tell you what... I hate the NY Islanders.

So I assure you they are people out there who hate America just like I hate the Islanders. They just do.

Politics, World Politics especially is sport. You pick a team and root.

George Washington, who is considered the father of our country, advised against political parties. See George Washington, Farewell Address (1796). The rest of our so-called “founding fathers” had no hesitation to choosing sides.

While fascinating I fail to see what, if anything, this has to do with the topic or even my post... unless you're suggesting that George Washington, the namesake for the worst bridge in North America - maybe the world, hated America.

America can be many things, how do you define it?? Borders, Government policies, Ideals and principles, people, something all together other or a combination of certain thing(name them).

I think America is primarily it’s people. Often, the whole does not equal the sum of it’s parts. There is conflict, conflicts produce synthesis and America is constantly emerging just a little bit different than before. Isn’t that the way it’s supposed to be. We were born in conflict with England, there was much conflict in the period of the writing of the Article of Confederation. Conflict has hit its peak and in the Civil War and in the anti-war and civil rights protests of the 60s.

So America, through its people is an emerging nation, not in the normal economic sense of the phrase, but in a cultural and political sense.

How do we determine when someone hates America?

We don’t! Pointing out flaws and trying to make improvements, should be seen, as a rather tired phrase would put it, “tough love.” We can’t equate social and political criticism of the country, hate for the nation.

As G. K. Chesterton, 1874-1936 put it,



http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26905.html


What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?

There is no way to measure love for country.

It is not a matter of love or hate for our country, but rather the lack of civility among the people. In politics, in particular, people have become so polemic and so partisan that there is no place for argument anymore. The opposing party has become “the enemy.” One cannot even agree to disagree for there is no tolerance for opposing views. It is a sad state of affairs when people can no longer even talk to each other without coming to blows. But then this is nothing new in the history of politics. One of Octavian’s first acts as Triumvir was to add his friend, and mentor, Cicero to the proscription lists to appease Antony, who had Cicero’s head and hands mounted on the Senate Rostra in the Forum Romanum. (A high price to pay for his Philippics!) And, in our own history, Alexander Hamilton might have lived to be President had he been more civil in his dealings with Aaron Burr.

America can be many things, how do you define it?? Borders, Government policies, Ideals and principles, people, something all together other or a combination of certain thing(name them).
As you said, America can be many things, but above all (very important issues) America - for me - symbolizes liberty. Living in a socialist European country, I've always lived with the flaws of this kind of society concerning taxes, bureaucracy -> inefficiency, legal [etc], but most of all freedom. State intervention is, here, such a big issue to me, that I no longer see socialism as a “free” ideology. Every day I see political decisions being made to decrease individual liberty - I mean, soon I can't even decide whether I want to buy candy or not - apparently, our government has to do the thinking for me, as I, obviously, cannot do that myself. This is, I think, due to another socialist idea; socialized medicine (or 100% free Medicare as it is here). Even those who suffer lifestyle diseases can have a free liposuction, whenever they ask for it (oh, if you're struck by a heart-attack after 3 in the afternoon, you cannot live; you cannot receive surgery (still, we pretend our healthcare system is the world's best)) - so of course, we cannot allow these people to eat candy, and neither can I who have no problem controlling my weight.
Another thing is the great influence of taxes. Most people in this country pay more than 50% income-tax, which basically means that you're not smart enough to decide how your own money should be spent.

Another thing that symbolizes America to me is the concept of dissent. Dissent is not looked upon as something bad, rather it’s regarded constructive and good, in order to keep society developing. I am a conservative, and I greatly support the US as a nation, but I am often faced with “hatred” and disregard whenever I mention my stands – I live in a country of political correctness that has gone beyond reason (at least in the communities in where I roam) – there’s close to always positional consensus among these people concerning controversial issues, and it’s hard to object to that when people think it’s a matter of course. An honest discussion is not really possible without someone getting insulted.

(I hope this wasn’t off limits for this discussion – it does, though, reflect a part of why I think America is so great. There’s much more to it, of course – history, nature, capitalism (which is also opposed by many where I live) etc.)

How do we determine when some one hates America?
I think this is quite a hard question to answer, as there are many aspects to it. There’s the more and more common socialist America-hater, which is more or less dictated by fashion, I think. There’s also the European media-dictated America-hater, and there’s Michael Moore and his friends, who has no real arguments to why. I really don’t think that anyone genuinely can hate America – of anything they would hate George Bush, which, to a large extent, also is dictated by the media. Hatred against America is not so much rational, as it is trend.

What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?
Why determine? I wouldn’t care that much about determining whether a person loves it or not (with reference to above).

Hate? Perhaps a better word that one could use (at least for the purposes of this discussion) is disgust.

People don't hate the US. Not most people. Oh, admittedly, you have a few radicals here and there, who feel the sudden need to scream "allah allahu akbar!" and blow themselves up in the vicinity of the "mindless, sinful servants of the great satan". But they're the exception. Probably.

With everyone else, asia, euurope, and even parts of africa, (the snobby african countries, mind you, not the ones embroiled in war.) the general attitude towards the "land of the free, home of the brave, etc.", It's more discomfort/disgust. They don't like us. That doesn't mean they hate us.

Case in point; the french make it a point to express their utter disgust for the "crass, uncultured americans", at every possible point. But they've never actually confronted us about it. Then again, the french haven't been in an open conforntation with another country since the second world war, and we all know how that turned out. .

And when it comes to their discomfort, we have no one to blame but ourselves. After all, their only measure of us is through our media. After looking at day after day of the stupid, inane drivel that the average american watches with gusto, how could a frenchman, (or any member of a non-american country for that matter) resist taking a few potshots at us?

Personally, I blame New York. They're the worst possible examples a foreigner could use to judge this country. Crazy, foul-minded (and mouthed), they're dragging down the social desirability of the other americans. Yyyup, they're the worst. Bottom of the social ladder, that's us---er...them. Right.

America can be many things, how do you define it?? Borders, Government policies, Ideals and principles, people, something all together other or a combination of certain thing(name them).

I view it as a few dimensional thang- - America the geography- which also makes so much of our "character" of our country- wide open spaces, geographical things of beauty, like shiprock or Mt Denali,

It is an idea- something we struggle to live up to, and even can be said we mostly fail at- but, in the course of human history, our founding fathers, though in a place of privilege themselves, chose the route of freedom- very, very radical, even liberal

We as a culture, even though we disagree about it's definition very often, verbally say " I love all poeples to be free"- even though we often fail at it.

IN all my travels around the world, the one thing that really seperates the rest of the western world from the US is there seems to be more home ownership and small business than anywhere else in the world. I believe those to be the underpinnings of the most basic way towards freedom, so, I would be able to point at that as an empirical basis for me to say "we are more free in this area than anywhere else in the world, and controlling one's own destiny as your own boss is the pinnacle of freedom to express that destiny"

There are LOTS of reasons why we are also LESS free.

How do we determine when some one hates America?

Blind patriotism is as bad as actually "hating America" IMHO- I often wonder how the modern conservative reconciles thier hatred of freedom for all poeple with the basic (liberal) ideology for freedom for all, even those in the minority, or less powerful.

I think only the suicide is brainwashed enough to blindly actually "hate" America- otherwise- I think it is a boogeyman, like "socialist" or "tax and spend"

What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?

I don't think there is a litmus test of who truly LOVES America, and I think it is a bit odd of an expression. But probably, the english language is a bit more of a failing here?

I know those that harp on "those American hating liberals" are poeple that certainly are really against the idea of freedom, and thier only argument is to say that somehow, thier expression is treasonous to what our country stands for, I suppose, when usually, the opposite is true.

America can be many things, how do you define it?? Borders, Government policies, Ideals and principles, people, something all together other or a combination of certain thing(name them).

America is a very rich country with a really well intentioned constitution and a government of paranoid spooks.


How do we determine when some one hates America?

When they declare jihad against you.


What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?

As BoF said, there is no way to measure love for country. One makes ones stand on the basis of ones perception but perception can change very fast. The flag waving soldier can quickly beocme the legless cynic.

I think the best you can hope for is the maxim, 'I support those who support me'. For as long as America is seen to be supporting the people of other nations, then I think, Gallic disdain aside, most people will look at America with mild and forgiving eyes. After all, we are all human.

The same can be said of Americans looking at America. For as long as people feel oppressed, they will feel resentment, but since most rational people will understand the concept of responsibility then there will always be a fine line between love for ones country and disdain. The best indication I can think of for any community is crime. The higher the crime, the less people give a damn about each other. Communities and countries which suffer from poverty always suffer from crime, so poverty is the most serious threat to a nation.

In reading this topic, I can't help but get the feeling that this has to do with liberals, conservatives, and who loves America more. In thinking about it, I would say there are radicals in both wings that hate America. On the left, I would have to categorize some multi-culti professors and "blame America first" folks who can never say anything positive about this country, it's just: America sucks, America did everything bad in the world, we are white-hetero-hegemonizers. on the right, I would say that people like Fred Phelps hate America and what it stands for. They don't hate America for economic or political reasons like the left, they hate America for it's lack of "moral fiber." I do believe that are those who love this country in both ideological perspectives. How else can you get the ACLU and Bob Barr together for one cause?-the constitution.

America can be many things, how do you define it?? Borders, Government policies, Ideals and principles, people, something all together other or a combination of certain thing(name them).

It's the United States of America, which is defined by the Constitution. The borders are defined with settlements by war and purchase. Whatever culture is here is defined by the people, their ways and customs. The land defines itself without human intervention, except where developed. That definition, the developed portions, varies to degree and extent, from little mountain town to NYC and LA. I've not been to either one, but I hear they are quite different.

I personally prefer the little town to the big city. It's what I grew up with and what I'm hanging onto in older age. The mid parts were in cities, which was good for the time. I can understand those who grew up in cities returning to that familiar scape too.

How do we determine when some one hates America?

They either attack physically or by trying to dismantle the Constitution, process of law, the way we do things here. The British hated the United States at one time. Japan wasn't very happy with it as is. I'm pretty sure the Native Americans during the buildup of the country weren't real thrilled with how it turned out. And now we have a bunch of punks who think they know something trying to kill off the Great Satan. Then there are the crazies among us, and I won't get into that.

What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?

Anyone who puts out extra effort to keep the United States of America alive and well crosses the threshold of self to the idea of nation. That goes from volunteering in the community to earning the Congressional Medal of Honor. I'd put politicians trying to do the right thing for the nation in there, although that can get pretty messed up.

Trying to do the best one can in any particular situation is in there. Purposefully trying to mess things up doesn't count.

Innovating is an expression of love, especially what I see happening with energy and transportation. Of course it helps that oil futures are knocking around $100 a barrel. Just saw an article about extracting oil from algae farms, which would yield a lot more renewable biomass fuel per acre than corn. Iowa might not like that, but a corn farmer converting to algae farming is conceivable. The motive might be self-preservation though, which can be considered less than love or might be considered self-love in a positive way. It depends on the person.

Yelling at each other isn't love, no matter how you slice it. That's ego and probably selfishness, or fear. Probably a lot of fear like a dog barking.

Here's the article on oil from algae:

Green Oil

Yah know, I bet we could build electrical power plants to burn that stuff rather than coal. It'd be cheaper too because of all the special handling that has to be done with coal before burning it and also the resulting disposal of cinders. It'd save mountain tops in the Appalachians. Huh, all this from green slime. Seems ironic.

America is perhaps the freest and most prosperous country ever. A country where opportunity is nearly limitless for anyone willing to work hard. A country where all are welcome who come here legally and are willing to be part of the American dream.

How do we determine when some one hates America?
By the lies that tell about our system of government, industry, people, or any particular aspect of out culture. M. Moore fits the profile perfectly. His “documentaries” loved by people all over the world who DO hate America and say so, an not documentaries but distortions and outright lies.

IMO liberals don’t “hate” the country but clearly some on the far left do and would love to see the US as a Socialist state.

What is the threshhold for determining who truly loves it?
Not sure there is one. Certainly anyone who realizes this country, and all countries are flawed as the humans that populate same, but works to make the best of what they do while not twisting reality to portray this country is very bad in many respects (as Moore does) can love this country.

I'd have to say all in one.

America is not only a vast expanse of a nation, not only do we have a unique and pioneering governmental philosophy, (I'd like to think) but we also are a nation that has perpetually come to the aid of other countries regardless of the cost - economic or in blood.

Being American has always been associated with a certain swagger, a certain naive nature, and a certain entreprenurial spirit that I've never found anywhere else in the world. We are arrogant about our strength and economic power, have a certain cultural and historical ignorance, and are most often characterised by hard charging and relentless business prowess.

I've worked and visited a number of nations outside of our borders, and rarely is there the same expectation. Americans work hard and have over time built an economic foundation that has grown from generation to generation. We also (at least used to) are a place that immigrants can openly and safely make dreams come true without worrying about caste systems, governmental regulations, or economic prejudice. This added to our diversity, made a spot for international investment, and in part has allowed us to change from a predominantly industrial nation to a technological nation.

Actually- I would say Ted is a classic example who hates America- and Michael Moore is the true patriot here. - I have watched a majority of his documenteries, from "Roger and Me" to "Farenhieght 9/111"- it is pretty obvious he loves America, more than you Ted, alot more than you. It takes true love, the kind one friend has for another- to tell poeple something they don't want to hear about thier belief systems. It is like the best friend of a guy that knows his best friend's wife is a scam and con artist, sleeping around, and stealing from their joint resources- it is the friends duty to say "man, you need a divorce there dude, and a good lawyer, and maybe a private eye and accountant"- it makes the friend mad because the dude is talking about his wife, but it is more false pride, 'cause he really doesn't love her anyway- he just needs something to brag about.

Once the guy sets aside his foolish pride though, he can become the better person his friend thought he was all along.

Michael Moore is a true patriot? lol, for real? That guy is a disgrace to liberals everywhere CR, its people like him who have encouraged a younger generation to distrust their gouvernment for anything, and everything. If it were the 1960's he would have peace signs tattooed everywhere, have a full beard, drive a big van, and be smoking dope 24/7, if he doesn't already. Catch my drift? What a joke that guy. Most liberals from what I understand don't even like him, he's managed to dupe what is a relatively small group of people.

Its really hard to determine what qualifies one to hate their own country. That kind of thing id assume would rarely be admitted by those who do. I don't believe the anti-war in America generally hate their country, the ones I suspect hate their country most are the ones who encourage conspiracy theories across the board, in relation to multiple topics. These people would also have to be the type that encourage others to doubt everything their country does, and they would be the type that would put a negative spin on almost everything we have achieved as a nation. Ive meet people like this, but thankfully they make up a minority.

Michael Moore is probably boarder line, its hard to generalize about people I don't know personally, but he certainly spreads his own pessimism to others with enthusiasm. By the way intolerance is another clear indicator of those who have hate in general. Ted obviously doesn't share your views and therefore you say he hates America, just like that. Very interesting if you ask me, hypocrisy such as that is one of the many things id look for when trying to determine if a person has bottled up hate in general, so perhaps thats something you know a bit about.

Ultimately I think we have to be open to each other and not jump to conclusions, to say someone hates America is a bold thing to claim, and that can rarely be determined for anyone that someone doesn't know personally.

From a self-announced conservative, Net (it says so on your nametag---er...profile) you seem to like speaking for the liberals. Any chance that we can convert you?

No?

Micheal Moore, I will freely admit, lacks charisma. He's fat (not that there's anything wrong with that!), scruffy, and, from the various unflattering pictures of him (all pictures of micheal moore are unflattering) seems to lack any knowledge about the words "personal", and "hygiene".

THis has nothing to do with his political stance, nor does it detract from anything he has to say.

Whether he's a liberal anarchist or not, the fact remains; for a time, he was the only one willing to publicly confront the establishment, and hold them accountable to each and every "fact" that they threw at us in the wake of 9/11. Can you say as much? Or are you trying to say that even now, you believe each and every word of the administration's ahem* Escaramento del Toro, dating back four years?

CR is right. It takes courage to stand up and say that something isn't right. Even if you've got all the appeal of a hunk of roadside carrion.

There is a difference between questioning our gouvernment and being willing to think the worst in nearly every case. Michael Moore goes beyond questioning our gouvernment. Heck I question our gouvernment all the time, and do I always trust this administration on all fronts? Nope, but I don't go around preaching my opinion as if it were fact either. Michael Moore wants to believe our gouvernment is hiding something with just about everything. It makes some people feel better about themselves to have someone else to blame. All that man does is blame republicans for all the Ills in our society, and without proof of a conspiracy you wouldn't catch me exploiting anything based on a hunch.

Do you know what my friend Joe believes because of the movie Ferinheight 9/11? He honestly believes George Bush has time to play golf 5 hours a day, now how he deducted that from that movie, I'm not sure. Personally I didn't watch it and I don't plan to. To me its very simple akalae Criticisms are fine, its healthy to ask questions and expect the best of your gouvernment. However its when ones criticisms are over the top and focus solely on the opposing political party when it becomes obvious the person has a deep rooted political agenda, like Michael Moore. I criticize across the board, I criticize Republicans, and Democrats, but at the same time I'm reasonable and realistic. Being the reason I never even actually claimed that Michael Moore hates America, he may be more likely than many to hold that title but fact of the matter is I don't know him, Ive only read of him so coming to that conclusion would be rash and over the top. If Michael Moore did the same perhaps Id take him more seriously.

Also, I spoke of the liberals a bit based on my interaction with them. I have a lot of friends who are either liberal or democrat, so it becomes easy to figure what they are likely to buy into, or not. The general impression I get is that the average liberal does not like this war, but likes America. Over half of the liberals and democrats I've talked to don't particularly like Michael Moore either, my mother cant stand him. As for becoming a liberal myself, I actually agree with liberals in some areas, for example liberals tend to be more pro choice, and so am I. Liberals seem to take Global Warming somewhat more seriously than the right in many cases, and global warming I highly regard as being a serious problem. I agree with conservatives on most other issues however, particuarly this war.

The personal attack aside it is clear that he has been blasted for inaccuracies and lies in every one of his junk movies. He has even gone so far as to try and call them “comedies” after being called on the ludicrous lies.

So if this slob loves America then I clearly am not with him.

“With Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, however, an entirely new note has been struck. Here we glimpse a possible fusion between the turgid routines of MoveOn.org and the filmic standards, if not exactly the filmic skills, of Sergei Eisenstein or Leni Riefenstahl.

To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.”

http://www.slate.com/id/2102723/

Like I said- the "inaccuracies" are mostly very, very minor, and very few and far between- how do you lie about actual video coverage? - once again, you may feel it is an attack (sorry Jaime) but it is the perfect example- I can't think of someone on the right wing that is THAT "head in the sand" about every issue involving America- that blames every single thing in America on "liberals" while ignoring the fact that they haven't had any real power since 1980-

the blind partisanship/patriotism that Ted has spread around here, the "Bush does no wrong, EVER" and "rah-rahing" everything America does, no matter how bad America behaves- for instance- ignoring the FACT that Reagan employed terrorists and thugs in Central America- each one of them equally as bad as any hitler or stalin ever concieved, they just didn't quite get the body count those other guys did-
is really, really ignorant of the evil we have done in this world.


THAT kind of wierd "patriotism" is what IS leading America to destruction- and I think, whether they subconciously know it or not, they hate America.

How can you say you like or love or are even care for an entity- when you so wantonly enable it's destruction by ignoring it's destructive behavior.

I see it like a co-dependent relationship- somone has to tell the guy he has a bum for a wife- and that is where we are-

Michael Moore ain't lying OR misleading- he is telling the truth and it hurts.

What is this damage you are talkinga bout? What is the actual physical harm that is coming to the US via "Roger and Me"?

Now, what is the harm conservative ideology has brought us? It is massive and all pervasive loss of economic might and personal freedoms.

Michael Moore hasn't done anything bad to anyone in his entire life- except make fun of ignorant conseravtives- which can make one mad I suppose- at the best-no one likes a smarty pants I guess, nor do they like hearing "I told you so" over and over again- and that is where we are at- President select GW is the worst president in US history- and tens of millions of poeple are now pointing at self described conservatives saying " I told you so, you are so freakin' ignorant and thick headed- but I told you so"- and that irritates those that it applies to- it irritates them to no end.

But the right wing "America is best " Rah-rah-ers like Limbaugh and Coultier have done immeasurable harm. No liberal has tried to pass a constitutional amendment to limit freedom, no liberal has put forward a law to allow torture, etc etc.

It is this ignoring of the culpability of blame for the entire conservative movement post 1980 that has led us down the the dark trail we are at now.

BTW- for the record- niether Clinton is liberal either.

Ask yourself this- who loves a brother or sister more- the one that cheers them on down a road to self destruction, or the one that tells them what they dont' want to hear, even if it may harm the friendship? "Yes" men aren't friends- they are scyophants- an important difference.

Well I think its easy to see that to many America is either liberal or conservative. Well what about the individual?

I joined the military nearly ten years ago. I did not join up wanting to be someone fighting wars, as weird as that may sound to some. I basically hold humanity in contempt at large for being grossly ignorant of so much can really caring not to change that situation. I don’t have to much vanity in some nationalist sense to put America above this standard I hold as an individual. I don’t see any positive future for humanity as long as we stay separated by armies and what not. I also do not see capitalism and democracy as the end all to human problems. In fact going from the past I would say we are probably close to knowing nothing overall of what it means to be human basically out of lack of will to define it empirically to whatever extent we can. I also know that America is one of the largest consumers of resources on the planet, and does such in manner not respective natural reality in any accord of the sentence. That being said I got out of the army pretty much because of bush, I think he is a pinnacle of everything that I think is wrong with people, or at least a perfect poster boy for the ignorance that I feel exists in humanity, he is a brutal, utterly insane murderer.

So in that regard I made a choice as an individual, and as such for expressing freedom I am sure a great many people would say I am unpatriotic and there is something I must do for the good of there perception As is I don’t know what the big rush is, being problems we are mounting on the earth from an ecological standpoint overall, of course in complete ignorance for the most part, will either set us straight or set us straight to the extinction list, either way that’s my bet for the future.

As on to that I don’t think any one person really is America. I think using the broad variance of America is the only real way to show what American is, its just the fault of many that they would try to end this for some shallow vision they hold, such as being some model of a contemporary political ideology. I mean people speak in terms of culture and in reality they have no real clue of what they are talking about, the closest I would guess many have come to studying culture in any real sense is reading political jargon. Its a completely blind way to live and really unhealthy as evidence by human history. I guess it comes down to the fact there is so much going on in the world today I could care less to support. I mean that latest thing in Saudi Arabia with naming a bear mohoamad or what not, it just goes to show the insanity that exists, this along with the fact we basically support some of the same over here in a different form.

I look overall at my involvement in the military as a mistake, I am also glad I did not accept going the officer route for I could simply see how much I would have come to hate my life really. So I spend my life in America following the best I can my own will, even in the gross fabrication of lies that America is some totally free country. So that would be my best guess on what it is to be American, like most its just green libertarianism in some form executing in time, and typically along with say the bush administration which is barely conscious past base reactions to light and sound. I mean if you asked this question nearly twenty years ago all of the responses would be wildly different then they ones you see here now, and in another twenty years to the same will occur again. Bottom line is nothing is going to change really until people wake up I guess.

Though I am sure that M.Moore will personally be blamed for the loss in Iraq, then the media, then the liberals, the Americans in general, and at no point will that horrendous and brutal mistake be laid on who it should be, for that would be unpatriotic in a land of freedom

What is a country, what makes us love or hate it? Borders are arbitrary lines, drawn by Expansionist conquest or Colonial decree. Our place of birth is also arbitrary. Any of us could as easily been born Iraqi, Somali, Indian, Chinese. Do we grow to love a country, then? And upon what is that love based? In the United States, the history texts used in our schools have long been largely works of propagandist fiction. Is it this whitewashed version of history that teaches us to "love" the U.S.?

Certainly there are aspects of the US one can admire. Our constitution codifies various civil liberties, and places limits on centralized power. On the other hand, our history shows the US to be one of the more aggressive nations in the last 150 years. We have militarily intervened in more countries than most other nations. For a long period of interventionism, these military exploits were baldly in support of economic policies designed to favor US companies in foreign lands.

The US is a decent place to live, if you have some money. Of course a conscientious person must examine the cost of that decency. While espousing high-minded ideals, and touting the several interventions that genuinely fought against fascism, the majority of US intervention has been a decidedly negative force in the world; from denying democracy that might upset US business interests, to denying democracy that might choose so-called "communism."

Having spent the first part of my life living in India, and having traveled fairly widely, my own conclusion is that the US is an OK place to live, but not really better or worse than living many other places. From what I've learned, the qualities which cause most of those who believe the US is by far the Mecca of life and liberty, are myths. There are many places I've visited where though the material is often lacking, though the poverty is greater, and even where economic mobility is less likely, the people in general seem to be nicer, happier, and more welcoming. Not to mention healthier. I've also seen places where many people seemed more mean, less welcoming, xenophobic.

But really, the love-hate question is moot to me. Nations are systems of power designed to control populations. What is there to love about them? I love people, and not one group of them over another. All of us on this earth suffer, grow old, die. All of us are bound by suffering, and addicted to our cravings. We have mothers, fathers, siblings, children. To place any severe emotional investment in a system of power over people is to necessarily lessen the poignancy of the suffering of the other that is excluded from the system we choose to deify. There are certainly those whose blind acceptance of propaganda offer us examples of this falsely-based prejudice. Whether its the American who buys the myths and sees his country as superior in every way, or the Kiwi who may be convinced through other myths that the American people are somehow more stupid and vicious than anyone else.

You know you could have just said liberal = good, conservative = bad, and saved yourself several paragraphs, I mean shucks. To me there is one way to tell who it is that has bottled up anger toward the opposing political party and that is to pay attention to what they say. The ones pointing the fingers consistently at the opposing political party, never to criticize their own are the ones I lose a degree of respect for.

In this one post of yours CR, these are some phases I found interesting..........

1. THAT kind of wierd "patriotism" is what IS leading America to destruction- and I think, whether they subconciously know it or not, they hate America.

2. Now, what is the harm conservative ideology has brought us? It is massive and all pervasive loss of economic might and personal freedoms.

3. Michael Moore hasn't done anything bad to anyone in his entire life- except make fun of ignorant conseravtives- which can make one mad I suppose- at the best-no one likes a smarty pants I guess, nor do they like hearing "I told you so" over and over again- and that is where we are at- President select GW is the worst president in US history- and tens of millions of poeple are now pointing at self described conservatives saying " I told you so, you are so freakin' ignorant and thick headed- but I told you so"- and that irritates those that it applies to- it irritates them to no end.

4. But the right wing "America is best " Rah-rah-ers like Limbaugh and Coultier have done immeasurable harm. No liberal has tried to pass a constitutional amendment to limit freedom, no liberal has put forward a law to allow torture, etc etc.

5. It is this ignoring of the culpability of blame for the entire conservative movement post 1980 that has led us down the the dark trail we are at now.

6. Ask yourself this- who loves a brother or sister more- the one that cheers them on down a road to self destruction, or the one that tells them what they dont' want to hear, even if it may harm the friendship? "Yes" men aren't friends- they are scyophants- an important difference.

Wow, well I hate to have to be the comedian in here, but it seems to me if you were taking a nice quite Sunday walk in a park and a pigeon crapped on your head you would find a way to blame that on conservatives one way or another. Still rather interesting that despite everything you seem to be more than willing to blame on conservatives that they have managed to hold the majority of the presidencies since George Washington, and since you particuarly mentioned our failures in recent decades, its even more interesting to me that 5 of the last 7 presidents were in fact conservative republicans. To continue this charade shouldn't I be in the position to be the one to say that individuals such as yourself make perfect sense because its always is the smallest dog that barks the loudest? Think about it. However I'm not typically throwing out remarks such as that, Ive never defended Republicans on all fronts, and I've never been the type to blame liberals for everything.

To substantiate this below is section 9 of my WOT post. It is basically states in a nutshell what I think of president bush.........

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...mp;#entry228304




I will not hesitate to criticize someone within my political party, and at the same time I wont take someone like Hillary and say she hates America. You can read my criticism on her at the same link, or the separate post I made for that section. I wouldn't even go so far as to say you hate America, although you certainly aren't fond of Republicans, Ohh well.

Yes Net, Modern conservatism has been a curse on America since 1980- because it ditched the small goverment "good" things that conservatives USED to believe in, and took all the bad things of both liberal America and the bad things of old conservative America and mixed them together.

net, as has been pointed out to you- you have never had to sacrifice one darn thing for your country EVER. I have had to go outside the US and see what those policies have done to innocent poeple.

There are a couple of cliche's that hold true- "there is a thin line between love and hate" and "it is possible to love something to death"

That is what the post-1980 conservative has done to America. They took the profoundly anti-freedom social conservative/religious righty and bred them in an unholy alliance with the ideals of big goverment solutions via liberal ideology.

So yeah, I lay blame on everything that has went wrong firmly where it belongs, at the feet of modern or neo-conservatism.

They have done absolutely nothing good in thier entire miserable time in power- nothing. They have done immeasurable harm, in fact, they may very well have destroyed the country, we just don't know it yet.

So, like I started to lead into- you have heard of a 'co-dependent" relationship before, haven't you? There is this enabling of destructive behaviors, where you ignore all the bad behaviors, tell them "no one understands them like I do, you are just jealous because you can never be as good as them, that is why you want to destroy them"

Sound familiar net? Okay how about this "You must hate America, you are just jealous because of our freedom and how rich we are, and you just want to destroy it"

This is the type of transference that happens in all human interactions where one person is behaving in a self-destructive or even totally destructive to all around them behavior.

It is the same on the macro scale.

I mean, you have to be pretty deaf, blind and dumb to think that our health care system is better than northern europes, or that we do pretty much only bad things when we venture outside our borders militarily (at least post WW2)

What usually leads to that self-destruction of that self destructive person is this- they listen to the Teds instead of the Micheal Moore's.

The "it's NOT you, it's them" type speech, instead of a "hey, get your head out of your fourth point of contact" speech.

You dig a bit deeper into that relationship, and you find out that enabler probably doesn't really love that person at all- usualy even hating them, when you scratch down deep enough.

But it is hard to tell, because there is a thin line between love and hate!

They have done absolutely nothing good in thier entire miserable time in power- nothing. They have done immeasurable harm, in fact, they may very well have destroyed the country, we just don't know it yet.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night CR. Tell me all the great things about the two Democratic presidents we've had in the last 30+ years. First you have Jimmy Carter who went down in the books as one of the worst democratic leaders of all time and unlike Bush JR. he failed to earn a second term, Bill Clinton was an improvement but certainly nothing to brag about, thats it, you have to go back to the late 60's to find another Democrat as president. Are you so blind that you cant see that our gouvernment has failed us on both sides? We take more of the blame naturally because we've been in the hot seat the vast majority of the last 30+ years. Most of these presidents were less than impressive, Ronald Regan being the exception to that. I know you don't like him either, but for the most part generally he was very highly regarded, enough so that republicans today compare themselves to him.

Ive figured by now that you will demonize practically everyone on the Right, but like I said if that helps you sleep better to always have a finger to point, then by all means do it. I on the other hand will not demonize you, or the left for having to deal with you.

I have to agree with you to an extent. I mean it seems like America is slowly become more and more partisan by the day in regards to certain issues. I mean I think I am a pretty intelligent guy, at least somewhat rational if not, and all I can say is if someone really knew how to make things right where they heck are they because they don’t happen to be acting right now.

Modern religions like Christianity for instance have had over 2000 years to make things right. At one point in our nations history it was the end all of debates and law. Not to put it down but it hardly led to any kind of a utopia, the same can be said of any modern political ideology. I do not understand how a person could become so bent on some certainly flawed and deffinently temporal ideology to the point in which it becomes worth more then human life. I do certainly think that aspect of humanity can only be answered once the debate on nature vs. nurture is solved to the point in which you could explain it to people at large with the ability to explain it in detail to a small child and have him or her understand. This completely lacks, and in its place you have so much variance of what is right, what is wrong and everything in between. I mean who does not think 9/11 was a pure horrid act of brutal insanity, how do you actually end such regardless of form? I mean in one instance we are in Iraq for reasons no one really understands outside of a few at the white house, at the same time we support a nation that holds the ability or desire by some to put people to death for naming a teddy bear after a super natural figure...

Maybe its just not magical enough to get organic, I have no idea. My life has basically taken me that route though and one thing I can say is I do not think really humanity in total is either ready for such a state or motivation really to try to understand such, I think this is evident even in the simple reality of ecological ruin we are bringing about. I mean most would not remember history in terms of religion used to be nothing but pagan in the sense that organized religion did not exist, nor did wide scale governments that enforce some law or what not over millions soon to be billions of people. I mean tomorrow someone could probably prove mathematically that the uncertainly and chaos of humanity in total is something we can barely understand, what will that mean to some, not much save a reason to hug a nuke which is a very scary thought. I mean if you don’t happen to support life overall what are you really supporting?

That's the beauty of it, well put.




And no one on the right wing hates America? Not christian "reconstructionists" who despites the constitution? Not abortion clinic bombers and doctor killers who can't respect the rule of law?



And some on the right want a pious, theocratic enclave where no one else but them have liberties and rights.

I'd like to get back to these questions.

Maybe it's time we stopped deciding who hates or loves America based on what other people tell us to think.

Who among us is married or in a permanent relationship and loves that other person? What love means to each of us may range from 1) tolerating a bad situation to the point that we won't leave, to 2) having regular arguments and fights and then sharing passionate "make up" sessions, to 3) experiencing a state of contentment regardless of external circumstances or disagreements.

We can't determine for each other who hates America short of someone plotting or carrying out violence against the government or its people. Of course, we can believe a person who actually says that s/he hates America.

I have grown cynical about the flag-waving bunch who feel that dissent is akin to treason or cowardice. There was a time when I would see the Stars and Stripes waving and have tears in my eyes while singing the National Anthem. I don't feel that way any more, because for too long the flag and stirring patriotic music have been used to push a policy of making war, most recently on a country that hadn't attacked our country. We as Americans have been manipulated into a conflict based more on the ambitions of a number of corporatists whose politicians got into office. That is not patriotic.

So do I love my country? Yes, but not from a red-white-blue, we're #1 standpoint. Not anymore.

I love my country because it is home, not because it's the biggest, the best, the richest, or whatever superlative we want to delude ourselves into thinking. Warts and all, this place is still my home. I'm not sure that it's "the best" anything, but it is where my friends and family and I live.

I think it's time that we separated the concept of love from foolish pride. It's also time that we realized that people around the world, whether in democratic, socialistic, communistic countries and/or dictatorships love their families, their friends and their homes the same way we do. We actually have more in common with them than less. To recognize this does not mean that we hate our country.

You need to re-read my post. Didn't specify republican -democrat- I specified "MODERN CONSERVATIVES"- a very specific and fairly new animal to Amiercan politics.

Nixon pretty much screwed up the whole country with his wrongdoing and machivilliean behaviors- and we have Ford and Carter to thank him for. I have said several times on this board that Jimmy Carter was a failed president- for many of the same reasons I say GW is a failed presidency, though on a much larger scale.

However- yes, we have a failed ideology that really came into power with Reagan in 1980, and it has just spiraled into worse and worse conditions for most of the country- and the country is more divided than ever because of this ideology.

I was very, very specific to the political movement, and specific to the year as well.

Though, to be fair, most of the bad things that have led to our imperialistic, nanny state we have now were a direct result of us becoming a real superpower after WW2.

However, we have succeeded in electing progressively worse presidents ever since, and we really got bad in 1980, a watershed moment in US history.

I am not sure if Ronald Reagan even understood how much the religious right hate's freedom for others, and how horrible the religious right really is.

However- they did espouse big goverment in ther ACTIONS (if not thier words ) and the nanny-state we have today- confiscation laws, war on drugs, war on terrorism, war on the poor, sex pollice and all that have found a voice in the relgious right, and it has become a battle of slogans ever since as well.

It doesn't "help me sleep at night" knowing my country is being destroyed by a bunch of scumbags, I wish otherwise, of course.

It is funny you talk about "sleep at night" net- what is it you have done for your country in your lifetime Net. I mean, besides playing video games and thumping your chest over what a wonderful war we have in GW?

Tell you what, when you do something postive for this country instead of just sucking in oxygen and typing at a keyboard- let us all know.

But at this point- really- for someone that "loves" america- what sacrifice have you given to your country? Are there pieces of you in another country? Have you started a business with several employees?

This is the false/blind patriotism that we talk about here- and came up again and again on the 'surge" thread.

The modern conservative doesn't DO anything for his country- he talks about how great it is, talks about how liberals hate America, but really is too afraid to go enlist or go to civilian duty where others really are sacrifcing thier bodies and thier lives.

It is come to a pinnacle under Geedumbya's regime- we have an entire adminstration of poeple that "supported" the vietnam war while recieving deferment after deferment, or serve in a "champagne" unit while snarfing coke and partying away thier time.

This country really doesn't need that type of "love".

Do you even listen to yourself? You seem disgusted and full of hate yourself more than anyone in here, ironically as you talk about people and political groups you never took the chance to really understand, while describing them as being hateful, blind, and scumbags. I'm going to assume that your judgments on conservatives are not even substantiated and are based on extreme political partisanship, and I'm going to tell you why that is. I can say this with confidence because you don't know me from Fred Flintstone yet you are quick to judge me, while questioning my morals, so I don't doubt for a second that you will do this with conservatives in general, especially the ones who don't share your views, whether you admit it or not. You've demonstrated this already, so little you say can be taken seriously because most of what you say is highly slanted.

Thats ok though, I don't blame the left for people like you like I said before. This is because I'm not going to come to highly inaccurate conclusions on a group of people to large to generalize about. I believe most people on both the right and left of politics are good hearted Americans who rarely flat out hate their country. They contribute to their nation in a number of ways, and on a number of levels. You've got some nerve to tell me what I have or haven't sacrificed, and what the modern conservatives haven't sacrificed. Americans have varied and complex lives. We have doctors, nurses, construction workers, writers, actors, plumbers, teachers, athletes, ect. ect. ect. ect. Everyone of these people have the right to believe and support whatever it is they choose regardless of how much or little their lives have to do with what they support or believe. To you this probably applies to everyone but these modern conservatives that you've become so accustomed to attacking that your no longer aware how ridiculous some of the things you blurt out sound. By the looks of the moderating of this form, Id assume I'm not the only one noticing such things.

Actually- once again, you have no idea what you are talking about- having grew up in the right wing religious movement, in fact, we were instructed to vote for RR from the pulpit, even going as far as questioning the "salvation" of those that DIDN'T vote for RR, beecause the left and dems are "agents of the devil and the whore of babylon" (whore of babylon is the catholic church in those days )

When you are specific to a group of poeple- you can make fairly accurate "generalizations"- for instance, I can generalize that the KKK don't like black poeple much- is it inaccurate net? Or, are they good hard working americans with good hearts- because they go to church and take care of thier own when in need?

I have NO problem calling the post 1980 neo-con, or modern conservatives cowards and hypocrites- because thier stances on a variety of issues shows it to be true.

And it is couched in terms of "patriotism" though it is anti-freedom to it's core- no different than the mis-nomer of a variety of programs like "the patriot act" (definately NOT patriotic ) -

but you have to wonder if they love this country at all- or just yearn for the "good ol' days" when you could own a black human being, beat your wife, as long as you were a "good Christian"- and want THAT america, NOT the actual America, warts and all.

Though, I do kinda have to laugh at your characterizations of me- considering, from one point, that I actually lived in that movement and know it inside and out- and have served in the military- all while you sit in your comfy home, live with your parents or something, right? And have never served a day for the US in any way, shape or form.

And this is at the heart of the "hate america" debate- those that say that so often are usually the ones that have really never contributed anything positive in teh first place.

Yes, I do very much judge the religious right and the Neo-cons, because I have seen thier handiwork first hand, and lived within the movement- I daresay you have done neither, and looking at the niativete' you have shown in the "surge" thread- when called several times on your egregious errors, plus your explanation of your lack of service to this country in any form, well, you really don't know anything about the military, or those that serve in the military, or the neo-con movement, or politics post-1980 , so you aren't really in a good place to be making these statements- you have neither lived it NOR have you researched it- which is a legitimate method of entering into a debate that you have NO firsthand knowledge of.

for instance- I am not a lawyer, or a legal aide, and have very little legal experiance outside my own domain of criminal law and competancy and culpability issues- so, if I want to enter into such a debate- I read up on it until I have a clue about what is going on.

I will reference the "free speech" thread going on now- I have not interjected a legal opinion- because I haven't been able to find anything, through links OR PERSONAL EXPERIANCE that would suggest that I know what the hell I am talking about- the only time I entered the debate was to ask for links, citations etc to back up a claim as something other than "faith" in the issue.

One thing I do know about is dysfunctional relationships and "love/hate" issues.

I have heard the same thing from dysfunctional relationships as I hear from the right wing attack dogs "you must hate America because you don't support GW and therefore, don't support the troops and you hate america- did I mention you hate america?"

You just swap in "America" for the name of a spouse- and you get the same string going.

Folks that throw this around alot, it isnt' that they hate ALL of America- they just hate the America that doesnt' fit into thier reality. I don't hate America- but I certainly hate what the neo-cons or the modern conservative has done to my country- the entire movement is based on removing freedoms from other Americans- which is a fundamental 180* out from the ideals that I think makes America worth loving- freedom. Those that don't want freedom for everyone DON'T love all of America- they love thier freedom, but not freedom for all.

You don't have to worry about making blank generalizations about that group- because they are all true, generalization or not.

The neo-con movement stated and oft repeated goal is to REMOVE and make LESS freedoms, NOT more- so therefore, they must hate freedom and America as well.