Many democratic leaders in Washington have been holding the Bush Administration and the CIA to the fire over torture. Waterboarding has been the poster child of these charges. Interestingly enough, many of these leaders were aware of these techniques as long ago as 2002 , but said nothing in opposition.

Questions for debate:

Are the attacks of these democratic leaders on the Bush Administration and CIA hypocritical?

Is it acceptable for elected officials to change their minds (flip flop) on issues such as these?

What current issues in America is it ok to flip flop on, and which one's aren't?

Are the attacks of these democratic leaders on the Bush Administration and CIA hypocritical?

I would say that any elected official who was informed of these barbaric practices; who did not object to them at the time; and who will not admit to having been wrongly complacent, would indeed be acting in a hypocritical manner.

I have bolded the most important point. If any elected official will admit to having been wrong, and is willing to pay the price for that admission now, I would not call such a person a hypocrite.

I think it is interesting, by the way, to note the reasons why officials may have been complacent in these acts of cruelty.



Our elected officials are not supposed to panic in times of crisis; they are supposed to care what is done in the name of national security.

it acceptable for elected officials to change their minds (flip flop) on issues such as these?

Yes, if it is a sincere change of mind and not just an attempt to stay ahead of the polls. This is very hard to determine, of course. To demand absolute firmness of opinion is to demand fanaticism. On the other hand, if an elected official seems to have opinions which shift with every breeze, it is reasonable to suspect that person of insincerity and opportunism.

What current issues in America is it ok to flip flop on, and which one's aren't?

It doesn't matter what the issue is, as long as the change of mind is real, and if the elected official is willing to face the consequences of having been wrong in the past.

Questions for debate:

Are the attacks of these democratic leaders on the Bush Administration and CIA hypocritical?

Of course since that approved the techniques and were glad to get the resultant information obtained through their use.

Is it acceptable for elected officials to change their minds (flip flop) on issues such as these?

Any one can change their mind but to do so for crass political purposes is imo unacceptable. Nancy Pelosi approved the techniques along with others – it is too late to now blame those who used them. Beyond that I see no reason a technique can be OK one day and not the next. What is it about water boarding that makes it torture?

Ted, the great thing about your use of talking points in lieu of substance, is it's fun to show how utterly ridiculous your statements are. Except for you, nobody has defended the use of waterboarding either way dependent on party lines. If Nancy Pelosi agreed to waterboarding, then she should go to jail along with anyone else. Now, please show me ONE person who has defended her. Nobody has defended anyone's stance on this except for you.

But mainly, I came to respond to: "What is it about water boarding that makes it torture"

Read for your self here. In 1947, the United States prosecuted Yukio Asano for waterboarding somebody. He got 15 years of hard labor. Later - in Vietnam - here's how it was described:



So, in the past, people have been prosecuted and punished for this behavior. Back when we had principles.

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Your “Talking points” and personal attacks are boring as usual. Nancy approved – did not object to- water boarding after being shown the technique. Why would anyone have to “defend” a procedure they have seen and approved of?

I can’t wait to see them try to put anyone of either party “in jail” for water bosrding.





So what we are saying is that the approval and use should not have happened? Fine lets not use it then – but lets not pretend as some will that they never approved of its use.

And let’s be ready for the deaths that may result from not having the Intel because when we ask the terrorists give us the finger. Oh and lets keep the pressure on the Terrorists to act less like animals with our prisoners – for all the good that will do.

Ted- as it so happens, I agree with some of what you said- Fine lets not use it then – but lets not pretend as some will that they never approved of its use.- damn straight. I have no use for Nancy Pelosi anymore than I have for GW. As DR has pointed out, it is illegal, and soldiers have been put in jail for doing it- and WHOEVER okayed it- for panic or whatever, as VS pointed out- then they not only deserve our scorn, but jail as well. These are lawyers, and should have seen case precedent in the past. They need to be in jail, and it would be extremely hypocritical to say only GW deserves jail on this, and not everyone that else that approved it. There is ample responsibility to go around as far as I have seen so far, and they need to be held as culpable as the administration as long as they were equally informed as the regime. I absolutely do not care which party okayed it- if it is done, they need jail, period.

Once again- the only word we have that waterboarding has worked is the guilty parties involved- Ted- remember- the guilty ALWAYS justify thier actions. I have heard rapists complain about how the prostitutes they targeted "deserved it"- and the CIA agents CLAIMING they work are just as guilty as any other rapist or murderer or S&M torturer.

I will accept no claims of the country being safer by the criminals that make those statements, as it should be with any criminal in our system.

When Jimmy Carter comes out saying that waterboarding worked for the good of the country- I will change that stance.

And lets not forget the facts DR laid out- we have prosecuted soldiers for doing this in the past, and recognize it for what it was- back when we had principles as a country.

Let’s be clear and not pretend that this country has been lily white in the past faced with a ruthless enemy. Did you ever see a documentary on the war in the Pacific? Japanese were shot outright after it was learned that our men were being mistreated and beheaded. And they were NOT prosecuted.

The Genève Convention does not protect these animals and I have some problems with giving them all of those rights.


So if you want to beat up on rough treatment of people you have a long way to look back.

Fact check time. The former CIA agent that stated waterboarding had worked did NOT participate in the interrogation himself. He had only received the information obtained as a result. You know, CR, you might want to consider actually throwing in some truth here and there in one of your typical rants. If, for no other reason than variety.


Aquilla

Aquilla- as long as it is from the CIA it is an unreliable source- what reason do we have to believe him? What reason do we even have to believe that he is not simply a mouthpiece for the CIA ?

Why should ANYONE believe the CIA- lets be real- you want truth? How about the fact that this organization deals out falsehoods for a living- once again, get me some independent evidence from a RELIABLE source- something any reasonable person could believe- a good news anchor- or whatever- some independent verification of any type, OUTSIDE the CIA and the goverment- then I will buy it- otherwise, it is downright stupid to believe anything they say- they have every reason to lie, and NO reason to tell the truth.

I mean, Seriously Aquilla- what motivation does he have to tell the truth? What motivation does he have to lie? Which would any reasonable person think is the greater motivator> Puhleaze, we are supposed to take the CIAs word for it?

And Aquilla- do you buy into the Ted/GW talking point that "nya nya nya na na- thier side does it worse, so we get to do it too?"

Is that what we have deginerated too- we can only compare ourselves to Al-Quaida for good behavior, or muslim extremists, we no longer hold ourselves up to be the good guys?

Are yo saying that we are no better than the Muslim extremists, and we have the same moral ground as they do? The best we got is to say "they are worse"- no wonder the world hates us so much- what a bunch of scumbags we have become when the best we can say is "our torture is not as bad as thier torture"

and lets also not forget legal precedence- we have jailed soldiers for this behavior in the past. It IS a crime, always has been, obviously.

There is no rant here- we have evil poeple doing evil things in our own goverment, and we are not holding them accountable. That is wrong on SO many levels.

WE have basically given our CIA the greenlight to be no different than any other despotic regime in history.

There is NO credible, independent evidence that torture works, or anyone had been saved from anything. None whatsoever. If you are gulible enough to believe the CIA than so be it.

Funny- conservatives that are all about how bad big goverment is, and how they are inefficient, no accountability etc, heck, you are more critical of the post office than you are of the CIA.

I think it is pretty disgusting that you guys hold the minor goverment agencies to a higher standard than you do a near omnipotent org like the CIA.

Questions for debate:

Are the attacks of these democratic leaders on the Bush Administration and CIA hypocritical?

Is it acceptable for elected officials to change their minds (flip flop) on issues such as these?

What current issues in America is it ok to flip flop on, and which one's aren't?

I don't know about you, but I for one don't believe anything the CIA may state or the Bush Administration, even though I'm a registered Republican. Hey, experience is the best teacher and we've certainly had that!

In my opinion if a politician can't change his mind on any issue we have a real problem! I don't understand why we insist on using a pejorative term such as flip-flop when all that has happened is that a responsible person has changed his/her mind. I would hate to progress through my life still believing the same things I believed when I was twenty years younger.

Regarding waterboarding, my concern is about the people who administer this torture! Would any ADers wish to raise up sons or daughters who may be called upon to apply waterboarding? I watched a "waterboarding video" to actually see first hand what occurs! I definitely would not want to think that my adult sons, if they were in the military, had to become involved with this practice. It's hideous and may as well be referred to as what it is: TORTURE!

Well actually CR the CIA does report to Congress – even if much of it is in classified briefings and that begs the question – are they lying too?

You see because they would have to in order to cover up the fact that we “tortured” people and did not get actionable intel out of it.

Can you post the statements of Congressmen saying that the CIA is lying?

I know this does not fit in with your rant but you do see the logic don’t you?

https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/archive...jan_jun2003.htm