As a food vendor myself I just would never do this. Between me and my partner we speak a few languages well enough to relay our services and we have used them as we host international events. I would never allow something as simple as language restrict my business (me making money) and the customer getting fed.

I imagine this man has done this whole English only..."I am an American I order in English" campaign as a gimmick for the store. It sets him apart from the competition, it gives him press and attention, and probably a very loyal fan base based on his "principles". I would imagine the neighborhood this shop is in is undergoing a change and that the speak English sign resonates with a good many locals.

I don't believe it is racist in and of itself, I can't speak for the intentions of the owner, but I think it is nationalistic and xenophobic and I do believe it is discriminatory as it would make many feel unwelcome or that it was intended to persuade some from not coming to this establishment. I suppose it more accurately creates a discriminatory atmosphere, but for who? If you can't speak enough English to say 1 cheesesteak, I doubt you can even read the sign.

UGH...
People always twist what someone is saying. Seriously.

What Turnea was advocating is that somehow English wouldn't still be the universal language. Have you ever even been to Spain? Spanish is still the universal language, even if some people speak Catalan. In Canada, someone in BC doesn't speak French, and of course if he/she goes to Quebec, they can speak English too. Get it?

The fact is that even in Canada, the "Universal" language is still English.

There won't ever, at least not in our lives, be a time during which the US has broken pace with English for business, public services, etc. We barely can get our kids to speak English.

Turnea- to address what you're stating in reference to English not being the language of business... well, I'd be very surprised. I also find it interesting that you have no international business experience, but have an opinion on this one.

People in a multitude of other nations are still teaching their kids to speak English. The value is that even if they can't speak Mandarin or Spanish or whatever, of course someone in Beijing can often call someone in Paris. It's not about essentialism, but rather the function of the world to date. Sure, there may be a point that it changes, but if I were gambling based upon the investment in education of other nations (Japan included), I'd have to say it will be far down the road.

Where did you get that turnea was saying this? I think you're projecting. Just because English is the official language for business at the moment - and many countries teach English for that very reason, doesn't mean that it will always be the case.

Sorry CR, but I need to call you out for jumping on the "this is racist" bandwagon. That is the SPIN I was talking about when I last posted on this thread. We cannot have a logical debate about this because the minute the subject of mandatory English comes up, the word RACISM shoots out of people's mouths. It would only be racist if the sign specified race, which it does not. In other words, you can be Mexican, Asian, African, etc. --- just place the"order" in English (you don't have to be fluent in English). What is sooooooo evil about such a request?

Exactly DP. The sign did not specify “race” or even language just English since that is the language spoken by the employees.

There are lots of places in the LA area for example where Mexican is the prevailing language and all restaurant staff speak it (and mediocre English) since most of the customers are Mexican. Now if a Russian or Vietnamese person tried to order in their native language that would be a problem.

Nothing at all “racist” about asking people to order in English.

That definition doesn't square with his actions. If it did, you'd have to show where he treated an English-speaking Mexican immigrant at all disdainfully. I'm willing to be that he treats them highly courteously.

People sometimes lose when they be(t). Upon what information do you place your wager?

I highlighted the "if" and made the statement to answer the idea that racism is something you can sue someone over in this case- I don't think it is. I don't know if there is racism or not- like I said, if they except orders in Russian, French and Norwegian, but not Spanish, there is some indication here that doesn't want mexican poeple in his store, simply because that is the net he is casting by logic at that point.

The sign says order in English, so the entire racism discussion is irrelevant, even hypotheticals.

That's what makes it interesting.


For one thing, he himself is the child of immigrants who had to make it here the hard way. Usually such people respect immigrants who try to make it as well. For another, I don't think he'd be in business that long if he was bigoted. Law or no law, that's just not good business strategy. But as it is, he seems to be doing quite well.

I was replying to those posters that have been there, and his posting about the racist T-shirts and what not. I am not saying he is or isn't. I am just pointing out, racism is not something you can sue over in this case, I don't believe. Racism is actually quite hard to prove, as far as discrimination laws, statutes, Union contract grievences etc. Even if he is a racist, I don't think you have a succesful way to be "made whole" here.

What race are Latin-Americans members of? Was the restaurant owner black or asian? If a black restaurant owner in London, England required these Latin-Americans to order in english, is he a racist? If so, define racism. If not, define racism. Again, if these Latin-Americans could only speak english and the Philly restaurant owner required them to order in spanish, is he a racist?

If these Latin-Americans require the restaurant owner to take their order in spanish, are they racist and/or trying to make a political statement?

no. in America, where English is the country's language, how could it be discriminatory to ask a customer to order in English, as the people in the restaurant probably do not understand other languages, and it may just be simpler to require them to order in English.


also, even if they did NOT have this sign, once the customer started ordering in another language they would promptly tell them to order in English.

I knew this was going to get tossed in here. What you failed to report is the number of multilingual countries that aren’t considered industrialized and would be considered under developed. Didn’t do a count but they by far appear to be the majority. On that note…..

It's been proven that in multi-lingual Switzerland if you live in a French speaking canton and move to a German speaking canton or vice versa (and toss in the Italian speaking canton as well) you can expect to earn less money.

And who can forget Canadian. Yes there is a very valuable lesson to learn from our neighbors: a predominately French linguistic/cultural province tried to remove itself from the rest of the country. And since Quebec is the economic center of Canada if they had succeeded the entire country would have suffered.

Could it happen here? Probably not in our life time but you don’t have to look very hard (riots in France) to understand the difference between the collision of cultures in lieu of the blending of cultures, (immigrants assimilating to their new host) especially since that’s become culturally expected in modern times.

The United States main strength? Our economy. It drives everything from our innovativeness to our international benevolence including the opportunity to debate this topic on this board. So why should we allow the slow decay of the most important conduit that is the foundation of our economic strength: our language.

I applaud Mr. Vento’s willingness to take a stand for what he feels is right and as long as no one is refused service he is neither discriminating nor is he a bigot. Like many of us, I would imagine he can see the long term bigger picture and it’s not pretty.

Are you trying to say that multilingualism makes countries poorer? I'll need more than a list of countries to accept this assertion.


Proven, eh? I'd like to see this proof.


This is an argument for why a multilingual country is better off than a monolingual country. Clearly, Franco-phonic Canada adds economic value to Anglo-phonic Canada. It's doubtful that one could exist without the other with the same economic viability.


We have riots here in the US and they all speak English. Or perhaps, I don't understand what you're asserting here.


I agree with the first part: the US's main strength is its economy. The second part is an unproven assertion -- an assertion which is contrary to actual evidence. Furthermore, let's look at the two biggest developing countries in the world: China and India. China has an economic growth rate ~10%; India has an economic growth rate >8%. Both of these countries are very, very multilingual. Frankly, you have an uphill battle to prove that multilingualism is the cause of decay in society.

How is a language a foundation for an economy? I've read tons of economic theory, but none of it deals with this idea.

What I think is interesting is that you put "united" in bold, as if to highlight that the United States' main strength might be its unity, yet you then follow up with a total non sequitur: our economy is our strength. Why highlight the "united" then? Unity isn't needed for a strong economy, stability is. And as has already been pointed out, there are several multi-lingual countries that are relatively stable.

You provided a list of industrialized countries and expected us to make the opposite assertion. I was merely pointing out that there are as many if not more under developed countries that were multilingual.

And you’re making a poor assumption that just because another language is spoken in one of the countries you listed that every one has the same opportunities. One of the countries you listed was Ireland:


Link
http://www.dardni.gov.uk/index/alternative...age-barrier.htm


Was afraid you’d ask. A few years back while researching for a similar topic on here I found a study that is no longer on line. I sent the author numerous emails back then asking permission to post content here and never heard back.

If you had a business with ten employees and they spoke ten different languages what chance would you give yourself for succeeding? I’d give you zero because I think we could agree that in order to contribute to your employer a certain amount of communication is required.

In order to be successful you need the ability to clearly communicate within your own organization and with your customers, suppliers, employees, investors and banking institutions. The costs, inefficiencies and potential liabilities of not being able to communicate concisely are too numerous to list.


Never asserted multilingualism was the decay of society, it’s just economically inefficient.

My employer is global and our largest international market just happens to be in China. I spent four months last year tied at the hip with a visiting Chinese co-worker designing a technology related proof of concept.

While discussing which Chinese character set to use for reporting we got a little side tracked and she started talking about the many dialects in China referring to several as “the poor dialect”. When asked she explained how those in the remote, poorer provinces didn’t stand a chance of bettering themselves by moving to the economic centers because of the language difference.

And the other side of the coin: I’m sure you can guess why the economic centers of China aren’t going to readily invest in the poorer provinces.

So within the same country the different languages create economic barriers. You simply can’t effeciently exchange goods or offer services if you can’t communicate.


Did you examine the root cause of the Paris riots? Poor immigrants couldn’t earn a living wage because they couldn’t find employment and they couldn’t find employment because they couldn’t’ speak French. Sounds like a language barrier to me.


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I’ll assume you had no idea what I just wrote (apologies if you understand Chinese). Imagine the difficulty if we were trying to exchange goods or services.

Most economic theory I read makes several assumptions, one of those is the free and uninhibited flow of goods and services. The language barrier would be an inhibitor.


You’re exactly right.

The reason I bolded United is because the one single thing that unites us all, regardless of our heritage, is our language. Since communication (language) is the cornerstone of economics it’s not an accident that we’ve been able to marshal all our national resources into an economic power due to a single unifying language.

I can purchase any good produced or expand my business from sea to shining sea with ease because we all speak the same language. Take a similar geographic economically developed area like Europe, you’d have to speak over a dozen languages in order to equate the same American opportunities.

Excellent point about stability, see my example above regarding the Paris riots. The language difference was a critical divisor. France has new citizens who are finding it difficult to participate in their economy. And it’s not just France, it’s being repeated in England, Holland, Germany, etc….

No, I provided the list of industrialized nations to show aevans176 argument to Turnea was demonstrably false. Read the threads. And yes, I completely agree that there are far more industrialized nations that are not multilingual. What does this prove?


No, I am not making any assumption or assertion. I was merely showing that aevans176 argument to Turnea was demonstrably false. Read the threads.


I'm not sure where you're going with this. I agree that language can make barriers difficult for immigrants. However, Chinese immigrants to Ireland have nothing to do with the argument. While Ireland is multilingual, please show me where Chinese (Mandarin, for example) is considered part of Ireland's multilingualism. As far as I know, it's English and Irish that are considered the national languages.

To even make your argument work, you can't cherry pick a country and show how multilingualism "breaks" it. You must show how *every* multilingual country is unworkable. This you haven't done.


I don't disagree with the spirit of your argument. What does this have to do with multilingual countries (and their successfulness)?


Sorry, this is a poor argument. All you've done is cite someone's opinion that language barriers are the cause of economic inefficiency. First, there is no study demonstrating this. Second, you've left out all the other factors that create economic barriers, such as transportation infrastructure, power generation/distribution infrastructure, communications infrastructure, housing, jobs, government incentives to build out in these areas... the list goes on.

Third, the European Union seems to have overcome these "language barriers" just fine when creating their greater economic zone.


They rioted because they couldn't get a job and not because they couldn't speak French. Relax the French speaking rules and voila...

So what? I think most people would agree that language barriers cause problems, especially to public services. However, in addition to inefficiency, many of those problems stem from discrimination. This thread is an excellent example: people equate not speaking English to a serious character flaw.

What I think everyone seems to be forgetting is that there is a transition period for learning language. It is not as if someone steps foot on foreign soil and can automatically speak like a native. It takes years to learn, and it can be harder to learn if you are in an environment that treats foreigners (with foreign accents and less than perfect grammar) as if they were stupid and unwilling to learn.

Furthermore, if someone is merely a tourist and on vacation, is it really feasible to expect them to speak a foreign language? I would hope not. I've been to several countries where I know nothing of the language (Czech Republic, Japan, Serbia), and I thought it was pointless to try and learn anything in those language because I would not have understood the response back to me anyways.



This is disingenuous. No one is arguing that a whole business should function with every employee speaking a different language. This debate is about whether or not a sign demanding everyone order in English is discriminatory. This debate isn't demanding that the whole restaurant be able to cater to one foreigner's demands. Also, the simple fact is that most businesses can accommodate non-English speakers, especially in the service/retail industry.

Additionally, it is also economically unfeasible to be unable to adapt to changing patterns. If the neighborhood demographics of Genos is changing and becoming predominantly Spanish speaking, it would be unfeasible for the owner to try and stick to English.



Actually, most of those immigrants (and their children) could speak French. Most of the immigrants in France are from former French colonies or protectorates. They rioted because they were denied basic opportunities that white French citizens took for granted. Some of the rioters were even French citizens. Creating an underclass of darker skinned citizens breeds hostility. This is something that the US can really learn from.



Language can be an inhibitor, but isn't necessarily. And it's honestly a poor argument. If language was a problem, then the global economy would not exist. Strangely enough, companies in the US deal with companies in several other countries and vice versa, and no one seems to complain that we all speak different languages.

I really think that many people are missing the point. OK, F&D, you've clearly demonstrated that language barriers cause problems for immigrants. However, what is the solution? It appears you think that it's OK to deny people services simply because they don't speak your native language. Clearly, that is one solution.

I know someone is going to jump in and say "Well, they should learn English!" Do I disagree? No. If someone is living in the United States, it would be beneficial for them to learn English. Nonetheless, discriminating against people and saying that their efforts aren't good enough (because they don't speak flawless English) does not motivate *anyone* to learn English. Making people feel uncomfortable because they are foreign and do not speak English does not motivate anyone to learn English.

If we really wanted people to learn English, perhaps we could offer long term classes to immigrants. Many ESL programs are run on a volunteer basis or lack the proper resources to fully implement an effective program. Also, there's long waiting lists for many ESL programs (the cheap or free ones).

Also, there's several studies out there that effectively prove that immigrants are learning English, and at a faster rate than their early 20th century counterparts. I can cite several, but the most recent that I read was titled “Linguistic Life Expectancies: Immigrant Language Retention in Southern California.” So signs like the one in Geno's really only make the US look like xenophobic idiots who have no sympathy for anyone who doesn't look like them.

For those that have been waiting to see what the city would decide, take a peek!

Its is without a doubt discriminatory. He is making a point about his problem with the illegal alien population in America. If a bunch of tourists came in for a Philly Cheesesteak I'd bet money he wouldn't turn them down. It wouldn't be discriminatory if there wasn't a message behind the statement.

Is it racist? The group being targeted is illegal aliens that happen to speak (predominately) Spanish as opposed to Spanish speaking illegal aliens. So not a racist policy just a Xenophobic one.

Xenophobic? Could be, except as noted in numerous posts earlier, he has never refused service to anyone. Making accusations such has him being xenophobic make those that are sypathetic to illegals feel better, and that is fine. I don't see anything wrong with a businessman setting policies for his business. Apparently the city doesn't either.

Can I get an "A-men!" I'm a little disappointed it was a 2-1 decision. It should have been unanimous.




IF someone wants to go into a restaurant without shoes on, and the sign says, "No shoes, no service" would you consider that discrimination? The bottom line is that it wouldn't take much for a non-English speaker to learn to say "Give me a Philly cheese steak." The sign doesn't say, "Must be fluent in English" nor does the sign say, "Must be white and speak Engish", nor does it say "Must be a legal citizen and speak English", nor does it say anything else that separates someone based on race, religion, political beliefs, etc. It doesn't even say "When ordering, speak perfectly clear English." ------ It merely says, "When ordering, speak English."

Of course its discriminatory. It should be noted that every patron in there is also guilty of discriminating against all the other restaruants. Here's a news flash:

There is nothing inherently wrong with discrimination. Our political system is built on it. When you go into a voting booth, you are discriminating.

Point taken. I suppose Xenophobic isn't the word I should have used. Maybe Ethnocentric? I don't see anything wrong with a businessman setting policies for his business either. What I personally have a problem with is the number of people refusing to call a spade a spade. This policy wouldn't be news nor would it have even be an issue if there wasn't an illegal alien issue. To say this is not discriminatory is disengenious (and I know I spelled that wrong ::shakes fist at spell check for not reading my mind:. If that is a policy he wants to enact fine by me; but lets not act like it isn't discriminatory. Comparing no shoes no service to this is like comparing apples and oranges. On a side note, if they can't order/speak in English; what makes him think they can READ English?

If one customer is ummmmm, let's say Spanish-speaking, he will have a friend who does read and speak English. He can turn to him and say, "Qué esa muestra dice?" Then his friend will answer, "Dice, 'al ordenar hable inglés'. Usted sabe, usted aprende mejor el lenguaje si usted desea hacer mejor aquí." Then his friend will tell him how to say "Philly Cheesesteak," and he will be a wee bit more connected to the country he has chosen to live in.

The best way to help an immigrant (illegal or not) is to have him learn the language.

As an aside, I walked into a Subway here in Southern California and I tried to order a grilled chicken sandwich for my son. The employee behind the counter (a very sweet, cute, young Mexican guy) did not speak much English. I could see he didn't quite get my order, but he was trying, so I slowly repeated it. Finally, he got it right, and felt like he had accomplished a small feat. His boss then walked over to help him with the register. He told him in Spanish which buttons to push and so forth. The guy was "trying" so I didn't fault him.

You have to start somewhere. But if you are never forced to start, you may never learn. Do we want to be one nation of diverse people who come together in language and mutual respect. Or should we segregate ourselves by language and other cultural differences. I guess it boils down to how you think people will best live amongst each other. Without common language, overcoming cultural and religious differences will be virtually impossible!

Its a shame I missed out on this debate as it clearly illustrates the benefits free-market, and particulary competitive, economics has on discrimination. I argued as much in this thread: Private Sector vs. Government.

In this case, the consenus in this thread has been that the deli owner suffers a natural consequence of discrimination. Turning away customers is not a sound basis for a succesful business! Discrimination occurs only at the cost of lost profits from non-english speaking customers.

Economics will never, ever, ever, ever reward companies who make racial decisions over profitable ones, unless those two goals happen to be mutually inclusive.

Where does race enter into this topic? I don't remember seeing a sign that says only whites may order. It is also known that he has never refused service to anyone, ever. I don't feel it necessary to repost links that are posted already multiple times in this thread, but it is on record that he has not refused service to anyone.

I think this is well said, yet I disagree that if you have a "common language", then you will necessarily get a "common culture". I also disagree with the converse: if you have a "common culture", then you will necessarily get a "common language". However, I think the latter statement is far more likely than the former. While it is true that common language and common culture are correlated, I don't believe one causes the other.

The concern about the "balkanization" of the US into semi-isolated cultural pockets is not without merit. US culture has excelled in embracing foreign cultural ideas because the act of embracing is part of US culture. We shouldn't lose sight of this. Otherwise, US culture stagnates and whithers. Keep in mind that the English language borrows words and even grammatical structure from other languages: "how do you do/fare?" - pre-1600s --> "how's it going?" - 1900s (Germanic phrasing).

doomed_planet, your story about ordering at Subway shows a sensitivity to and awareness of the difficulty for non-English speakers. I don't think the restaurant owner who placed that sign in his window shares this with you.

If that is true, I can empathize with the owner for two reasons:

1) He is tired of people expecting him or his employees to speak and/or understand Spanish in an American establishment.

2) A large percentage of Spanish-speaking "undocumented citizens" do not appear to have much interest in even attempting to speak or learn the language. So to many Americans (myself included), it's insulting and upsetting. I was sensitive to the Subway worker because he was trying to speak English. Had he expected me to order in Spanish I would have told him in Spanish, then English where he can put the order. It's a mutual respect issue. At least TRY to speak the language of your host country. It's not asking too much, and anyone who says it is, has been brainwashed into believing it somehow "violates" the rights of a non-English speaker.

That is simply not true- doesn't mirror reality at all. There were lots and lots of southern businesses that willingly and often discriminated against blacks- and did just fine economically. They would rather lose that market than deal with blacks- and it did not cost them thier business. People still got rich.

OR he doesn't like tourists. OR he doesn't want to try bridge to communication gap. OR he erroneously thinks (like you seem to) that all customers expect the business owner to speak the customers' language(s). OR he's jingoist. OR he gets off feeling a sense of superiority to non-English speakers.

Any of these things may be true.


Who calls them "undocumented citizens"? They aren't citizens. Perhaps, "undocumented workers" are what you're reaching for?


I have never experienced someone not trying to speak their host country's language in a business establishment. I take that back. I have experienced this. Whenever I'm abroad, I eventually see an American try to order in English and then get frustrated when the business owner doesn't speak the language.

That is pure speculation on your part. Whatever his reasons for requesting the customer speak English, it is better for the customer to know English, so he is doing them a favor, if indeed they learn a wee bit more English in their quest for the perfect cheesesteak.



Oh, that was my facetious description. If you prefer "undocumented worker" or even "illegal alien" I will be happy to oblige you.



Oh well, I beg your pardon. If logophage has "never experience it" it must have never occurred.

The truth of the matter is that most non-English speaking hispanics give their business to Mexican-run establishments. There is a huge sector of L.A. that is specifically geared for the Spanish speaking population. There is no need to learn English in many enclaves of the city. How's that going to foster unity in America?

Good point Logo- Americans are the WORST for going abroad and not bothering to learn any other language at all, and then complain if there isn't English directions as well. As a nation, we are hypocritical in the extreme.

I couldn't imagine a German business, in Germany, demanding that I order in German. In fact, when I am anywhere abroad- it seems businesses bend over backwards to accomodate our ignorance.

As Borat would say "very nice"

If they are bending over backwards, it's to grab the money dangling from our wallets and purses. It's not out of "human kindness". Try going over there with no money, and offer your labor for less than their own citizens are getting, and see what kind of a reaction you get.

When Mexicans come across the border (illegally or otherwise) they are most often doing so to provide cheap labor and utilize social services.

When Americans go abroad, we do so to spend our dollars in other countries. We are not there to undercut the wages of their citizens, give our kids an education at their taxpayers expense, or utilize their social services at no expense to ourselves.

But neither do Europeans correct? Or is this to keep dirty mexicans out after all?

I thought it was strictly a language thing, not a racial thing, not targeted to one specific population? Your statements kinda defeat this idea, don't ya think?

When travelling to Europe- I have been poor there, and no one was making money off me, and helped me out, despite my mono-linguistic atributes.

I was a bit embarrased, and learned phrases in some other language- "thank you" in many languages- everyone is nice to you when you make an attempt.

But Americans don't even make the attempt.

No so with a Euro tourist. He/she can go to the Philly cheesesteak place and order "in english"- despite the fact that they are toourists, spending THIER money in the US.

I don't think of them as "dirty Mexicans", but it looks like you do, based on the above statement.



Not really. I was pointing to the absurdity of your comparison. If the Europeans, and that's a big "if" in places like France, are bending over backwards to accommodate Americans, it's out of the desire to take our money.




CR, the influx of Mexicans (and latin Americans in general) compared to young Americans backpacking through Europe with little money in their pocket is just not really even appropriate for this thread.



Yep. And I am sure the Philly Cheesesteak owner is also nice when customers of any country make an "attempt".



They don't make an attempt at what? Learning other languages? Speak for yourself. Many of us DO. I have spent years learning to read and write the Hebrew language, and when I recently went to Israel, the Israeli population, by and large, wanted to practice their English with me, as opposed to me practicing my Hebrew. Keep in mind, English is still the universal language. It's a language that is still important to know, whether you are Mexican, American or European.



Anyone can go the Pilly Cheesesteak and order. It only requires knowing a couple of English words. I don't see the big deal. People love to turn it into a "racial" thing. It's not. It's about the language.

Okay- so it IS targeting one racial group then, not the language issue itself?

Is the policy of requiring all patrons to order in English discriminatory?

I want to take this discussion in a different, but relevant direction.

What if a severely hearing and speech impaired individual comes into the shop? Are they going to try to understand sign language or pointing to items on the menu?

Having taught special education for a quarter century, I am well aware that language is not the only barrier to communication.

BTW: The speech and hearing impaired individual would probably be covered by the "Americans With Disabilities Act."

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761586...lities_Act.html

Yep, pure speculation on my part AND on yours as well.


I see. It's for the customer's own good that the business owner places a somewhat insulting sign in his window. This sign (written in English) is really helping the non-English-speaking customer to see the error in her ways of not knowing English. It all becomes clear to me now.


I just wrote I have experienced it. Or is today opposite day?


In my America, I can go to Chinatown and hear Cantonese spoken where most patrons don't speak English and business owners often don't either. I can go to Little Korea or a Russian grocery store and experience the same thing. I've even been to a Scandinavian specialty shop and been asked in Danish what I'm looking for. Certainly, Mediterranean restaurants are often staffed by Lebanese whose command of the English language is minimal at best. This is my America and I'm happy it exists.

Neither of us have proof that he is a racist. Shouldn't we apply the "innocent until proven guilty" concept here? Or do you have specific proof that he is a racist?



It's only insulting if you read more into it than what is there, which is "When ordering, speak English."



You must have a young child to know about opposite day, or are you a young child yourself? What I meant was that maybe you think, if you haven't seen or experienced something, perhaps it doesn't occur.



That's beautiful. However, in my America, there are millions of illegal aliens living, who don't speak any English, and they are not going to be better off for it. They are huddled along the perimeters of places like Home Depot, waiting to be taken advantage of by American citizens who want really cheap labor. Wouldn't those men be better protected by knowing the spoken language of the country in which they are trying to make an honest dollar? Or would you prefer they remain as vulnerable as possible?

Okay- DP- are we talking he doesn't like tourists, or he doesn't like brown people from south of the border?

I thought we were talking language here, not race or ethnicity?

If he is just singling out brown people from south of the border- then we have racism, because- who is to say that just because someone is brown, and speaks spanish- that they are here illegally? How does the owner of the resteraunt know the difference- can you tell by looking at someone what thier immigration status is?

At first- we are talking he wants everyone to be speaking english- I am thinking, oh, this includes European tourists too? Or, maybe, he just doesn't like Central American/South American dialects of Spanish?

Is he denying service to anyone, speaking any language other than English- or is it a "particular" group of people he doesn't like- it seems that you have some serious hatred going on towards these people at the least- is this your projection of this issue- or are we still talking just language stuff?

Okay- DP- are we talking he doesn't like tourists, or he doesn't like brown people from south of the border?

I thought we were talking language here, not race or ethnicity?

If he is just singling out brown people from south of the border- then we have racism, because- who is to say that just because someone is brown, and speaks spanish- that they are here illegally? How does the owner of the resteraunt know the difference- can you tell by looking at someone what thier immigration status is?

At first- we are talking he wants everyone to be speaking english- I am thinking, oh, this includes European tourists too? Or, maybe, he just doesn't like Central American/South American dialects of Spanish?

Is he denying service to anyone, speaking any language other than English- or is it a "particular" group of people he doesn't like- it seems that you have some serious hatred going on towards these people at the least- is this your projection of this issue- or are we still talking just language stuff?

You seem to be jumping back and forth between language (ism? ) and racism here?

My feelings is that the guy is racist, and is profitting off racist sentiment in America- racism can be profitable too- he is getting alot of "hell yeahs" from rednecks around the country it seems- pretty nice free publicity for a niche market, if you have the stomach for it I suppose?

From what I am gathering here- no one is up in arms over European tourists not ordering in english in this country- hmmm?

Neither of us have proof he is a racist. Neither of us have been arguing he's a racist. Isn't it great when we agree? .


If I were in Germany and a sign asked me to speak German when ordering, I would be somewhat insulted. This is mostly because I would already know to try to speak in my host country's language (and I would wonder if the business owner even wanted me in his country). While I can't read motivations into why the business owner put the sign on his restaurant (which I'm sure had an eagle and a flag on it too), I do know how I would feel if I saw the sign there. Furthermore, after reading the sign, I can't imagine I would be grateful for the "help" it provided.


I've never experienced being a woman, thus women don't exist? Do you know anyone who thinks like this? I sure don't.


I think they would be better off knowing the language of their community and their host country. It only makes sense. I don't understand how this connects to the debate at hand. What does some guy who doesn't like people speaking languages other than English in his restaurant have to do with the above?

He's not singling out anyone. He has a sign posted and it says, "When Ordering, Speak English."



LOL, CR. I've said it before and I can say it again. Requesting (via a posted sign) that customers order in English is not racist. Unless of course you have PROOF that it somehow is?????

I live amongst a large population of illegal immigrants, and I have no hatred for any of them. I have dissatisfaction with our government for its lack of attention to the matter. Unlike some people in this country, I feel very strongly that one of the key ingredients to living in harmony with people of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds is to have a common language. In the USA the common language is English. It benefits everyone (most especially the immigrant) to speak the nation's language. Mexicans who come to live and work are not tourists. They have chosen, for whatever reason, to live and be a part of our country. It is not cruel or unfair to require them to learn the language. Likewise, it is not racist to have a sign that says "order in English."


Other people on this thread are calling the owner of the Philly Cheesesteak racist for requiring ALL customers (some of whom may have brown skin) to order in English. I disagree with such an assertion.


Oh, well why didn't you say so earlier, CR. If your "feelings" tell you the guy is racist we can close the thread right now. End of debate. The man is officially a racist because, ummmmm CR feels he is.



What is it with you and the European tourist analogy. It's inappropriate and not befitting to the debate at hand. But just for the sake of the argument, do you know of any European tourists who went into his establishment and tried to order in their native languages and were served. I doubt it. Who would understand them? You, yourself, made the claim that Americans don't speak other languages, so how could they understand other languages?

When Joey Vento placed that sign in the window of his business he was expressing the frustrations felt by so many of his neighbors and customers. In fact, the feelings of the majority of Americans today.

The immediate area surrounding his steak shop has become home to a rapidly growing illegal alien population, with all of the well-documented problems that brings to a neighborhood. All Joey wants is to see immigrants begin their stay in America by entering legally. They come here to better their lives and they will be helped along that path by learning the language as quickly as possible. That's what that sign represented.

Unfortunately, the liberal democratic machine that is losing its grip on the black population they kept under foot for so long has shifted its focus to the newest class of 'slave', the illegal alien. Their efforts to 'protect' them are nothing more than a means to enslave them and keep them beholden to them, eventually securing their votes.

The liberal democrat machine lost this skirmish, but that's all it was. A skirmish. The 'war' is far from over.

Think about it...........

This is silly. So, because someone comes here legally, they automatically know English? If you honestly believe that, then you really have no grasp on immigration in the US at all. I work with an immigrant population (some legal, some not), and its really not that simple.

I wanted to dispel two myths that have been constantly brought up in this thread. One, immigrants (illegal or not) do not come to this country to use our services. Portes and Rumbaut in their extensive study of immigrant populations in the US note that most people immigrate for social mobility, especially those who come here as unskilled labor. It is far easier to gain entry into a new social class in the US than in other countries, particularly Mexico.

Two, anecdotal evidence is nice, but any assertion that immigrants (legal or not) do not want to learn English is false. Do you think they're so stupid they don't realize what language will help them gain the upward mobility they desire? Study after study shows that immigrants are rapidly learning English (I've posted them before, and the book I mentioned above also cites this) and by the third generation the native language is generally absent from the home. For those that don't learn English, one must really examine the social factors surrounding language acquisition. Something tells me that signs like "This is America. When ordering speak English" do not "encourage" immigrants to speak English. Shaming people because they do not speak the language that you do is a good way to reinforce ethnic enclaves and keep people as a lower class.

Additionally, CR mentioned tourists, which is a good point. Should they be forced to speak English, even when they are only staying for a few weeks? I went to Japan recently, speak almost no Japanese (certainly not enough to order in a restaurant), and yet...No one made me feel as if I was inadequate or less than human simply because I do not know Japanese. Was it frustrating sometimes? Of course, but some how I was able to make my way around. I think many people really underestimate how difficult it is to learn a foreign language. They also seem to forget the courtesy involved in their own experiences abroad.

What is there to be insulted about? I seriously don't understand. If indeed you are there, and you are wanting to speak the language, then you would assume that sign is not meant for YOU, but for others, perhaps.



I know people who assume problems don't exist because they, themselves, haven't seen them up close. That is the point I was trying to make with you.



The guy is merely asking his customers to order in English. You seem to be concluding that he doesn't like people speaking languages other than English based on his request that people order in English, which is pure speculation on your part.

What about a sign that says, "no shoes, no service." Or a sign that says, "Must pay in dollars." What if a guy only has shekels in his pocket?