Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Bill Clinton's Gaffe
America's Debate > In the News > Election 2008
Google
BaphometsAdvocate
Here's what he said:
QUOTE
"Everybody knows that global warming is real," Mr. Clinton said, giving a shout-out to Al Gore's Nobel Peace Prize, "but we cannot solve it alone."

"And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canada -- the rich counties -- would say, 'OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.' We could do that.

"But if we did that, you know as well as I do, China and India and Indonesia and Vietnam and Mexico and Brazil and the Ukraine, and all the other countries will never agree to stay poor to save the planet for our grandchildren. The only way we can do this is if we get back in the world's fight against global warming and prove it is good economics that we will create more jobs to build a sustainable economy that saves the planet for our children and grandchildren. It is the only way it will work.

"And guess what? The only places in the world today in rich countries where you have rising wages and declining inequality are places that have generated more jobs than rich countries because they made a commitment we didn't. They got serious about a clean, efficient, green, independent energy future… If you want that in America, if you want the millions of jobs that will come from it, if you would like to see a new energy trust fund to finance solar energy and wind energy and biomass and responsible bio-fuels and electric hybrid plug-in vehicles that will soon get 100 miles a gallon, if you want every facility in this country to be made maximally energy efficient that will create millions and millions and millions of jobs, vote for her. She'll give it to you. She's got the right energy plan."


Questions for debate:
Is Bill Clinton actually suggesting that "rich" countries slowdown their economies?

Could this gaffe hurt Hillary's campaign?

Is there a real industry in energy efficiency?

Bonus Question
Does winning a prize mean your ideas are irrefutable?

*edited to add a question (sorry scubatim)
Google
scubatim
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 08:17 AM) *
Questions for debate:
Is Bill Clinton actually suggesting that "rich" countries slowdown their economies?

It would appear to be on the surface, but I can't imagine why someone that is campaigning for a candidate would suggest such a thing. Aren't we currently trying to 'stimulate the economy' because the economy has slowed down? hmmm.gif

QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 08:17 AM) *
Is there a real industry in energy efficiency?

I don't know if there is an 'energy efficiency industry', however, if you look at Toyota and GE, there is definately benefits to moving industries towards more energy efficient technology. I don't see how this issue is going to create a new industry, I think industries will adopt this issue.

QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 08:17 AM) *
Bonus Question
Does winning a prize mean your ideas are irrefutable?

Though I disagree, that would appear to be the "consensus". w00t.gif
VDemosthenes
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 09:17 AM) *
Is Bill Clinton actually suggesting that "rich" countries slowdown their economies?

Could this gaffe hurt Hillary's campaign?

Is there a real industry in energy efficiency?

Bonus Question
Does winning a prize mean your ideas are irrefutable?

*edited to add a question (sorry scubatim)


1.) w00t.gif I really don't think so. I like to qualify the men [with the exception of one whistling.gif] who hold our nation's highest office as some of the smartest. As such, I don't think someone with Bill Clinton's experiences would be advocating any kind of economic slowdown.

2.) This will definitely hurt her campaign in the national election if she is the party nominee. Republicans will run with this one and try to make it out as Communist propaganda and lefty agendas.

3.) I believe we're living in that world now. A lot of companies are already working with alternative energy resources and biofuels, etc.

4.) Didn't George W. Bush win an Exemplary Service Award when he was in the Coast Guard or National Guard or Boy Scouts?
JohnfrmCleveland
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 1 2008, 11:15 AM) *
4.) Didn't George W. Bush win an Exemplary Service Award when he was in the Coast Guard or National Guard or Boy Scouts?

That award was from his fraternity, and I think it had something to do with balancing empty beer bottles.
VDemosthenes
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Feb 1 2008, 11:36 AM) *
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 1 2008, 11:15 AM) *
4.) Didn't George W. Bush win an Exemplary Service Award when he was in the Coast Guard or National Guard or Boy Scouts?

That award was from his fraternity, and I think it had something to do with balancing empty beer bottles.


Point proven that no one can really be called an expert at something just because they win an award.

It's different if you win fellowships or academic validation, but Al Gore won an Oscar. The Oscars are fine entertainment awards. It was a blatant attempt to validate Gore's work. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he raised the issue. But the Oscars are Hollywood. Not many politicians or scientists would feel good about being accredited by Hollywood U.

So in the end I don't really think Bill Clinton was seeking to use Al Gore to validate the slowdown of the U.S. economy because I like to believe he's smarter than that.
JohnfrmCleveland
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 1 2008, 11:42 AM) *
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Feb 1 2008, 11:36 AM) *
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 1 2008, 11:15 AM) *
4.) Didn't George W. Bush win an Exemplary Service Award when he was in the Coast Guard or National Guard or Boy Scouts?

That award was from his fraternity, and I think it had something to do with balancing empty beer bottles.


Point proven that no one can really be called an expert at something just because they win an award.

It's different if you win fellowships or academic validation, but Al Gore won an Oscar. The Oscars are fine entertainment awards. It was a blatant attempt to validate Gore's work. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he raised the issue. But the Oscars are Hollywood. Not many politicians or scientists would feel good about being accredited by Hollywood U.

So in the end I don't really think Bill Clinton was seeking to use Al Gore to validate the slowdown of the U.S. economy because I like to believe he's smarter than that.

Don't forget that Nobel Peace Prize, too.
Lesly
Is Bill Clinton actually suggesting that "rich" countries slowdown their economies?
I guess it's a gaffe because this reporter thought it a great idea to extrapolate on

And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canadathe rich countieswould say, 'OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.'

And get linked from Drudge and other sites. Yeah, a news-generated gaffe. But he scored ratings!

Could this gaffe hurt Hillary's campaign?
Dunno. Maybe it'll hurt her chances with undecided Republican voters who will be damned if they vote for a Republican this election.

Is there a real industry in energy efficiency?
Dunno, but I think so. We recently paid more for an energy efficient Bosch washer and dryer and we've made up our minds to pay more for hybrid or hydrogen cars in the future. When we buy a new or almost new home energy costs is going to be a big issue with us.

Does winning a prize mean your ideas are irrefutable?
No. Winning an Oscar means your movie is compelling/interesting/etc. A movie based on scientific evidence is only as good as how well you present the views of the scientific community and how current those views are.
BaphometsAdvocate
QUOTE(Lesly @ Feb 1 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Is Bill Clinton actually suggesting that "rich" countries slowdown their economies?
I guess it's a gaffe because this reporter thought it a great idea to extrapolate on

And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canadathe rich countieswould say, 'OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.'

Does winning a prize mean your ideas are irrefutable?
No. Winning an Oscar means your movie is compelling/interesting/etc. A movie based on scientific evidence is only as good as how well you present the views of the scientific community and how current those views are.


I dunno Lesly. It's actually sort of difficult to figure out what he's trying to say. One one hand he says we should do this and that other countries might follow when they see that there's an industry behind it. (Before you jump all over me as some kind of Clintonphobe look around - I'm the one correcting people on what they've been saying the past few weeks.)

And the PRIZE... is the Nobel Prize. I forgot about the Oscar because, well; who cares?
JohnfrmCleveland
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 03:32 PM) *
I dunno Lesly. It's actually sort of difficult to figure out what he's trying to say. One one hand he says we should do this and that other countries might follow when they see that there's an industry behind it. (Before you jump all over me as some kind of Clintonphobe look around - I'm the one correcting people on what they've been saying the past few weeks.)

It seems clear to me - If America can demonstrate (by our actions) that alternative energy, conservation, etc. can be more profitable in the long run than fossil fuels and pollution, then the rest of the world would logically follow. You can't just ask developing countries to cut down on emissions if it is going to cost them badly needed money - but if you could prove that change would be profitable, then they would change.

QUOTE(Bill Clinton)
And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canada — the rich counties — would say, ‘OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions ’cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.’ We could do that.

But if we did that, you know as well as I do, China and India and Indonesia and Vietnam and Mexico and Brazil and the Ukraine, and all the other countries will never agree to stay poor to save the planet for our grandchildren. The only way we can do this is if we get back in the world’s fight against global warming and prove it is good economics that we will create more jobs to build a sustainable economy that saves the planet for our children and grandchildren. It is the only way it will work.

Lesly
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 03:32 PM) *
I dunno Lesly. It's actually sort of difficult to figure out what he's trying to say. [On the] one hand he says we should do this and that other countries might follow when they see that there's an industry behind it.

And on the other hand?

I'm not sure other countries would follow our lead, but we can use conservation to pressure them on related issues on the international scene.

China? No way. Their manufacturing practices aren't that great when it comes to efficiency, and while they're doing a phenomenal job with Africa, taking a long-term approach investing and treating the continent as a possible political ally they may lean on for Taiwan, they're not going to cut back on raw material imports for a few decades.

Our economy is at the service-based stage. I don't think we'd come close to China in terms of raw materials if we somehow trapped manufacturing jobs. I'm looking at his idea more from the perspective of lowering costs for businesses and consumers, possibly decreasing foreign policy consequences with oil-producing states, and taking our ability to increase exploitation of natural resources to a whole new level.
Google
Julian
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Feb 1 2008, 08:43 PM) *
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 03:32 PM) *
I dunno Lesly. It's actually sort of difficult to figure out what he's trying to say. One one hand he says we should do this and that other countries might follow when they see that there's an industry behind it. (Before you jump all over me as some kind of Clintonphobe look around - I'm the one correcting people on what they've been saying the past few weeks.)

It seems clear to me - If America can demonstrate (by our actions) that alternative energy, conservation, etc. can be more profitable in the long run than fossil fuels and pollution, then the rest of the world would logically follow. You can't just ask developing countries to cut down on emissions if it is going to cost them badly needed money - but if you could prove that change would be profitable, then they would change.

QUOTE(Bill Clinton)
And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canada — the rich counties — would say, ‘OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions ’cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.’ We could do that.

But if we did that, you know as well as I do, China and India and Indonesia and Vietnam and Mexico and Brazil and the Ukraine, and all the other countries will never agree to stay poor to save the planet for our grandchildren. The only way we can do this is if we get back in the world’s fight against global warming and prove it is good economics that we will create more jobs to build a sustainable economy that saves the planet for our children and grandchildren. It is the only way it will work.



Yes, that's what I thought he was saying, too. The idea that he's actually endorsing a slow-down in the economy as a solution is frankly as disingenuous as the film poster that quotes a review as saying "Fantastic" when the reviewer actually wrote "I find it completely fantastic that anyone with half a brain would not walk out in disgust at this terrible film after the first five minutes". i.e. It's the opposite of what he was saying.

Is Bill Clinton actually suggesting that "rich" countries slowdown their economies?

No - read the quote again. The "we could do that. But if we did.." bit is the giveaway.

Could this gaffe hurt Hillary's campaign? Not really. I think the people likely to take this with the spin that Bill, and by extension Hillary, thinks that recession is a good thing as most likely the people who'd never vote for a Clinton anyway and never has.

Is there a real industry in energy efficiency?

Yup. Even at a very superficial level, most car manufacturers selling to European markets make their cars rather more fuel efficient than comparable American models. America could cut emissions overnight if they wanted to simply by buying the same models that are sold in Europe (usually by the same manufacturers).

And someone is making money from all the big, rather elegant white windmills (sorry, wind turbines) that are being put up around the world.

Does winning a prize mean your ideas are irrefutable?

Nope. Nobody's ideas are irrefutable. That's why they have to be backed up with some evidence.
BaphometsAdvocate
QUOTE(Lesly @ Feb 1 2008, 04:43 PM) *
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 03:32 PM) *
I dunno Lesly. It's actually sort of difficult to figure out what he's trying to say. [On the] one hand he says we should do this and that other countries might follow when they see that there's an industry behind it.

And on the other hand?

Sorry I thought the other hand was even more obvious... We need to slow down our economies to save the planet.
Lesly
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 1 2008, 05:00 PM) *
Sorry I thought the other hand was even more obvious... We need to slow down our economies to save the planet.

Ahh. It's not readily obvious to biased liberals. smile.gif
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.