I've been fascinated with the recent infighting between GOP activists and John McCain. Now I know that he has left the conservative reservation in regards to campaign finance reform and the Bush tax cuts, but does being a conservative mean that you are to never disagree on any issue? Is the party not big or inclusive enough to include a few token issues outside the party's stamp of approval?

John McCain; The Anti-Conservative

Thomas Sowell; McCain's straight lies

TIME-McCain frail with the far right.

Bill Murchison; The right and wrongs of McCain
Questions for debate:

1.)Is McCain a conservative? Why or why not?

2.)Can a conservative have some non-conservative positions and still be a bona fide conservative?

3.)Is McCain a liberal or is the far-right critics of him too far to the right?

1.) His economic plan sure makes it seem as such. And being the party of capitalism, isn't that what counts? I think McCain has a clear vision of the future for America's economic interests which vastly differ from Obama's or Clinton's... Ergo, that at least qualifies him as a conservative, even if it's with a little "C."

2.) Of course. It's a stereotype to assume all conservatives are Bible-Thumping-Capitalism-worshipping-anti-Muslim-malcontent-warmongers with too much time on their hands and an altogether ineffective penchant for nation-building... Although, stereotypes do exist for reasons.

In any event, a social liberal can still be a fiscal conservative and identify with the Republican Party. It's just silly to assume one must be a party line towing member of the party to participate.

3.) McCain is socially responsible. You can call that liberal if you choose.

And I definitely would assert people are going way too hard on him. It would be different if he deserved it, but since these are positions he's had by and large for a whole political career, leave the guy alone. Pundits are having a field day because he doesn't want to be the Heir of Regan no matter how many times he may have invoked his name in the past. Just because he wants to make progress isn't a cue for a new witch hunt.

I started this campaign season as a McCain supporter (sort of), but as it has gone on, McCain has turned me off.

He runs ads constantly claiming he is the conservator candidate. He "enlisted as a foot soldier in the Reagan Army". He attacks his opponents on the slightest of provocation.

Where McCain goes off the ranch (irreconcilably for some) are three things:

The Bush tax cuts which he voted against. I give him a pass on this because he wanted spending cuts to match them, ala Reagan in the '80s. One big problem for McCain here is the class warfare language he used in his comments against it. Earth to John: class warfare tactics are Democrat tactics and turn off conservatives.

Immigration reform in which his bill (which failed) called for pseudo-amnesty via a new class of worker visas. Again, I think most people are being too harsh as I don't read that bill as an amnesty bill. It granted visas to high value illegal immigrants and wanted them to pay fines in order to obtain them. Whether it was workable or not I don't know and how to deal with the other 11.99 million illegals...

McCain-Feingold. A direct attack on freedom of speech during an election season, arguably the time in which freedom of speech is most precious. I have no defense of this bill.

Of course these three are big. There are others (ANWR, global warming, His general reputation for "crossing the aisle" may be a boon to some, but it is an anathema to those that want to see how he has gotten Democrats to cross the aisle to our side on anything. Where is the quid pro quo?

Instead, McCain's bi-partisanship has led to liberal policies getting through with no corresponding conservative payback. That's the problem with John McCain: he is too willing to extend the hand, but he cannot reel in gains for his own positions.

1.)Is McCain a conservative? Why or why not?

McCain is a conservative on some issues, but he isn't a very effective one recently. He is more conservative than either Democratic candidate. Of course, neither of the other Republicans candidates are my ideal example of a conservative either.

His ACU rating is consistently conservative, He has always been conservative, as Lieberman was always liberal (until democrats drove him to the right, after sending Ned Lamont up as a sacrificial lamb).

The McCain image was created post 2000, when people felt sorry for him because of South Carolinia and after Bush and team had been so agrressive against him. When Bush turned out to be such a failure, this McCain is a decent and honorable man thing grew and he fell in love with his own maverick persona. The democrats and media created this maverick reality. You look at his National Journal ratings over to the years and he is consistently conservative on most issues, as Lieberman was liberal on most issues. A few highly publicized senate votes and this fake image gets pushed out. Lieberman is a conservative for thinking Iraq is a good thing and McCain is liberal for believing in global warming, not wanting the nuclear option and initially opposing tax cuts during a war? A lifetime of opposing abortion, supporting tax cuts and being on the right with military issues....makes you a liberal? It makes you a liberal because youy accept the beliefs of 95% of the scientific establishment who believes in the harm and reality of global warming?

He ticks off mainline conservatives, because he isn't nasty. He tries to avoid 51 senate majority votes, refuses to question Kerry's patriotism and doesn't necessarily want to appoint divisive supreme court nominees. He's not a good soldier in that way. He gets away from that Karl Rove, Ton DeLay, Rick Santorum, George Allen attack apparatus, where democrats are not colleagues, they're American terrorists.

Conservatives seem to let it go that Romney was Lincoln Chafee just a few years ago, but conservative over a lifetime McCain is somehow the liberal and shadow politician. Why? Because the Republican powers that be can't control him. He's going to run his own ship and at times democratic ideas will be used and consensus will be required.

1.)Is McCain a conservative? Why or why not?

2.)Can a conservative have some non-conservative positions and still be a bona fide conservative?

3.)Is McCain a liberal or is the far-right critics of him too far to the right?

If McCain wins the nomination, we will then be dealing with a very liberal conservative. In my opinion there won't be much difference between McCain and Hillary; in fact she may be the more conservative of the two. Of course the way Rush Limbaugh attacks him daily makes me think that I should vote for McCain. I've never agreed with any of Limbaugh's opinions.

He's out of step with many conservatives on campaign finance reform, global warming, the border problems etc. His positions on these topics are definitely not those of the Republican Party. He possibly falls under a new heading: LIBERAL CONSERVATIVE.

One thing that concerns me about McCain is the following: Last fall during one of his speeches he said "America was founded as a Christian nation."
In my opinion this statement showed that he is either historically and religiously ignorant and illiterate..or worse, that he knows better and would lie to get the bible belt votes which would reveal a total lack of integrity, honesty and character. Senator McCain is not alone in this historical ignorance as other candidates also pander to the religious and political right with equally absurd and idiotic statements about the founding of America. But for some reason, possibly McCain's record of strength, and honor in the military, I expected more from him than this evidence of blatant pandering to the religious right. I just felt disappointed plain and simple!

But McCain wants us to stay in Iraq, is against socialized medicine, had the second-most conservative record during the 109th Congress, supports overturning Roe v. Wade and is an advocate of free trade.

Clinton wants us to withdraw, is a liberal bastion and flag-bearer for socialized medicine, has a far-left voting record, is endorsed by N.O.W. [not a bad thing] and wants to increase taxes.

So, Clinton is more conservative than John McCain?

That's kind of hard to believe.

Yes, I agree with the above. But if you have a question and you can tolerate Rush Limbaugh for more than five minutes, tune in to RL's daily rant again McCain and he will attempt to enlighten you. I have noted that he is against socialized medicine, but his position on the border is troubling.

Only to some people. Obviously some people don't care or have a similiar view on the border as McCain for him to be a contendor.

On Rush Limbaugh, I have only to say that his views go so far right of mainstream America that he holds sway with those who let him.

Well, before conservative came to mean humongous spending, interfering in other countries problems, having the goverment stick thier nose into individual's private lives etc- he might have been conservative. If you consider GW as the new definition of conservative- well, then McCain is probably no conservative.

I will vote against him simply on the basis of that he wants to continue the failed foriegn polices of the last 50 years.

I don't know. I don't know what 'conservative' means anymore. If it means 'in favor of decreasing the size and scope of the Federal government, then God no. McCain is a populist. He embodies the 'there oughta be a law...' voter...I can't stand the 'there oughta be a law' voter.


Sure. Everyone knows all you need to do to be a 'bona fide conservative' is take an oath with one hand on Ronald Reagan's biography.

A liberal, absolutely not. He's a populist, as I said. He appeals to the 'the government should [insert an activity here] voting bloc in this country. He is an anti-libertarian.

With that said, I voted for the third option.

CP

I think you have hit it on the head here CP, nice work!

I think this is why Obama looks appealing to so many non-normally-voting dem group- I think the labels have moved so far afield of what they originally mean, that most of those that consider or call themselves "conservative" are certainly NOT conservative- because thier "ought to be a law"- is big goverment, period, as freedom stifling as any theocracy or nanny state autocracy.

My father [a Conservative] has an adage that states "If you're not a Conservative by the time you get your first paycheck, you will be after taxes." Modifying that slightly, it could be said that so many younger people, touching on your later point of the younger electorate in favor of Obama, "If you're not a liberal by the time you're eighteen, you will be after you have to register for the Armed Forces." So many of my friends are discussing things straight out of Vietnam-period movies wherein the hero and his love discuss ways to draft-dodge. It scares me greatly to think that now instead of my friends' parents, it will be my friends themselves who get shipped off to combat. I think this is why we see a great flock forming around Obama [and to a smaller degree, Clinton] because Conservative has become synonymous with "warmonger" in the eyes of an American generation.

Well, funny, now if you want to watch your wallet- you vote completely liberal- after all- the conservatives are the fiscally ridiculous now-

So really- if you don't want your kids needlessly killed, and then the prez to pimp them as some sort of good thing that they died for no reason, and then spend money like a drunken sailor, while being incredibly corrupt- and oh yeah, a closet gay that coasts for dudes in airport stalls-

you have to be liberal

"Family values" is a joke issue now for those scumbags- look at Reagan for instance- enstranged from half his kids, married at least twice, real a-hole when it comes to being a dad, newtie leavin' his wife in the recovery room for a younger chick without cancer, and oh yeah, cruisin' stalls for dudes, while in a sham marriage for umpteen years.

Not to mention hittin' on same sex pages.

Oh yeah, and selling out to the Oil companies, in a major way, at least in Alaska and Texas.

gotta love them "family values" and "guv'ment" out of our lives" conservatives.

I bet Barry Goldwater is rolling in his grave

Pretty much when someone that is running for office declares themselves as " conservative" I make sure my boy is locked away safe (if he is male and ESPECIALLY if he also says "christian conservative"- most likely means he is gay) and hold on to my wallet- as I am too poor for the obligatory bribe.

There is another similar adage......




The post preceding this one pretty much proves that to be a truism.

When I first saw the topic for this tread my reaction was "who cares?" John McCain is John McCain which means for those mentally challenged - he is who he is and he is what he is. John McCain has a long history, his military service is well-documented as is his long service in the United States Senate. His record is pretty clear and defined, far more so than either of his likely opponents in the election. McCain gets ripped by some self-proclaimed king makers on the right for working across the aisle with :::gasp::: liberals. Ah... duh.... When your party isn't in power you kinda have to work with the other side to get things done. McCain has done that and he's getting ripped for it. Thanks in large part to the efforts of John McCain, Senator (R <- and that stands for Republican not for Rush) - AZ, Janice Rogers Brown is a Federal Judge. Priscilla Owens is a Federal Judge. Thanks to McCain working across the aisle, John Roberts and Samuel Alito were both confirmed to the Supreme Court. In Reagan's words - "Not bad, not too bad at all".

Is he "conservative"? I don't know, I don't care. Come November he's going to be the best candidate running for President and I fully intend to support him in that effort.


Aquilla

1. Is McCain a conservative? For the likes of Limbaugh, Ingraham, Hannity and a lot of other right-wingers, the answer is, "hell, no." For this particularly liberal progressive, the answer is, "hell, yes." Just look at where McCain is on certain issues:

ABORTION: Supports repealing Roe v. Wade.
Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives.
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions.
Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)

CIVIL RIGHTS: Rated 0% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 7% by the NAACP, indicating an anti-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)
Voted YES on Amendment to prohibit flag burning. (Dec 1995)
Voted YES on banning affirmative action hiring with federal funds. (Jul 1995)

EDUCATION: Voted NO on $5B for grants to local educational agencies. (Oct 2005)
Voted NO on shifting $11B from corporate tax loopholes to education. (Mar 2005)
Voted NO on funding smaller classes instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
Voted NO on funding student testing instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
Voted NO on spending $448B of tax cut on education & debt reduction. (Apr 2001)
Voted YES on declaring memorial prayers and religious symbols OK at schools. (May 1999)

source: http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

As the man might say himself, "My friends, is this the voting record of a liberal?"


2. If a conservative can figure out how best to work with the folks on the proverbial "other side of the aisle" to get things done while holding true to his core beliefs, John McCain has pulled off that particular trick. That infuriates the purists who accuse McCain of betraying conservatism by working with the Teddy Kennedys and Russ Feingolds of the world, but unlike them, McCain is a master of negotiation and compromise.

Ideologues thumb their nose at Beltway poltics because they can. But all that proves is its' easier to be loud than it is to be right. For all those who cry and scream that McCain is unlike Ronald Reagan, they forget how Reagan and Democrat Tip O'Neil would work their differences out over a drink in the White House.

3. McCain is a fiercely independent minded conservative who rejects orthodoxy and pandering to the right-wing base of the Republican Party. He doesn't like them and they definitely feel the same about him. But because those who hate McCain the most are the same folks who hate liberals too, a situation has been created where a lot of liberals feel a certain fondness for McCain. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all that.

If Barack Obama wasn't in the presidential race, I have little doubt a lot of moderate Democrats and a whole slew of independents would side with McCain over Senator Hillary Clinton. In a one-on-one contest, while I'm certain McCain wants to be the POTUS, I'm not sure how far he'll go to get it. Would he "swift-boat" Clinton and try to destroy her? Bill Clinton has said a bout between his wife and McCain would be quite civil, but civility has a way of getting tossed aside in the race for The White House.

Even though McCain really hurt his image by trying to kiss and make up with the Far Right over the past few years, he's still the best hope Republicans have to holding onto the executive office. Despite the fact I have no doubts McCain has the experience for the job, his vision is far too status quo and his long-term commitment to the war in Iraq is a definite deal breaker. Even though he's the least unattractive Republican to me, I can't get behind him because there are better options this year.

1.)Is McCain a conservative? Why or why not?

I would say that "conservative populist" would be pretty accurate. Very hawkish, moderately conservative on social issues, not an advocate of reducing government, in general. By my count, that's a 50:50 mixture of conservative and populist. (One might compare him to Huckabee, who is as pure an example of social conservatism and economic populism as one might find in this century. McCain is neither that much of a social conservative, nor that much of an economic populist, but the pattern is the same.)

2.)Can a conservative have some non-conservative positions and still be a bona fide conservative?

Sure. It's when you have more than "some" that you have to consider terms like "libertarian" or "populist." Any discussion of political philosophy has to have at least two dimensions to be meaningful.

3.)Is McCain a liberal or is the far-right critics of him too far to the right?

By no means a liberal at all. His critics on the right baffle me; do they want to throw the election to the Democrats by nominating a "pure" conservative? Surely they would prefer a conservative populist over a liberal populist.

You'd think, but a lot of the Republican Party is still on a Regan High. Which, forgive me, Ronald Regan was no Ronald Regan. He withdrew our troops from Africa when they were attacked, he put is in a deficit, and he was not the great shining warrior that solely defeated the Soviet Union... Just not accurate, but most Conservatives want to believe that. So anyone not measuring up to those standards is not fit to carry the Republican banner. G.W. Bush was the successor of Regan through his father, who was Regan's VP. McCain is coming out of [pardon the term] left-field for the Republican Party and they just aren't coping so well.

We can deal with your abject ignorance of history in another thread, but for now, if you're going to diss the man, at least spell his name properly. It's REAGAN.

Ronald REAGAN.


Aquilla

Oh, who cares how it is spelled, the man was a myth, not a hero, and who cares anyway? Really- he was a fraud and a terrorist, no better than OBL, or rather, worse, considering the death and destruction he caused in central America.

regan is the nicest thing you can do or say about that scuzball.

My apologies on the grammatical error.

Alas, my understanding of history is rather complete in this matter given that "Reaganonmics" promised to "get big government off our backs." Did that happen? Did it happen in his term, nope.

Ronald Reagan acted with other world leaders, kudos to him. But he bucked a lot of procedure in cases mentioned by CR in Latin America and Africa. In his quest to end Communism, Reagan put this country into a tax-fueled shopping spree for defense, which worked to cripple the Soviet economy, but every president, Prime Minister, Pope, Dali Lama, and Boy Scout since the Iron Curtain was rung up had something to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

But I digress. McCain can't compete with any of that, so people lambaste against him.

What were the questions again? Oh yeah, right:

1.) Is McCain a conservative? Why or why not?

2.) Can a conservative have some non-conservative positions and still be a bona fide conservative?

3.) Is McCain a liberal or is the far-right critics of him too far to the right?

(That's right--it's about McCain! With all the talk of Ronald Reagan, you'd think that what the GOP really wants to do is dig him up, stuff him, put a small speaker in his mouth and run him again as the Republican Party nominee in preference to a living candidate! Absence obviously has made the heart grow fonder in his case, as it has, conversely, in the Democratic Party with JFK. Let's get over it, please. The "good old days" really weren't as good as we think we remember them to have been.)

Response #1: Yes, I think it is reasonable to say that Senator John McCain is a conservative, owing to his positions on defense, abortion, health care, the occupation of Iraq, gay marriage, and gun ownership for civilians.

Response #2: Of course a conservative can have some political positions that are not considered to be representative of political conservatism. So what? Do we really want to run robotic candidates that just spout what we want them to without giving a thought to other viewpoints? Maybe so...Even though I'm not going to vote for him, I respect the fact that Senator McCain has actually worked with folks on the Democratic side of the aisle from time to time. What a concept! Much better to have a guy like that win than someone who is so rigid that he can't work or play well with the other kids in the sandbox.

Response #3: McCain is moderate in some respects. That's not a bad thing. When the right wing ideologues managed to get Gee Dubya into the White House for two terms, look what happened. And really, who gives a rat's behind about what Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh say?

(Of course, what did you expect to read from someone who has never thought that "liberal" is a bad word? )

Well, I have it on "good authority" that Senator John McCain is actually a conservative:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080210/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush


So there you have it. Fearless Leader has spoken, so it's got to be true, right, Republicans?!

He is hardly a moderate. He was the candidate the Neocons backed in 2000 and electing him would see them swarming back to positions of influence again. Just because McCain has tactically chosen to team with Liberman to promote some modest steps against greenhouse gases doesn't make him a moderate. Nor does the religion he found regarding campaign finance reform after being tarred as one of the Keating 5. One can't help but wonder how sincere either position is. McCain is a militarist and an imperialist, is that conservative? Perhaps in a modern sense it is but not in the sense of a Robert Taft or even a Pat Buchanan.

(See This Salon Article).

Well I could really care less for what reasons he's a moderate, so long as he's a moderate. But he actually tends to lean into the conservative spectrum. I don't think he's an imperialist at all, I think he's just a defensive conservative; which isn't necessairly a bad thing, but in today's political climiate it could be the kiss of death. But McCain's still kicking and having a strong showing with Independents, so he obviously has some moderate laurels to support his bid.

As a matter of fact, he about left the party in 1,988 I believe. Something to do with Bush not being Reagan enough. A hardcore conservative would never think of leaving the party.

Here is Another Article from a Ron Paulish Libertarian perspective that discusses the Neocons and their ties to McCain and continued influence with others.

Around my lunch time, I switch the dial to AM and listen to Rush Limbaugh. The guy just can't stop fixating on McCain. This past week, he talked about endorsing Obama. Could someone explain to me how McCain's participation in the "gang of 14" compromise was such a terrible, unconservative thing? It basically ensured that Bush would get his nominees. In a number of magazines I read, his participation with this group is one of the cited reasons why conservatives don't like him.

On the McCain-Feingold thing. O.K., so some of you believe he would limit free speech of corporations and other lobbyist groups who want to blow all their money. So if I understand this right, we should enshrine discrepancies regarding spending in politics under the guise of free speech? Am I correct to believe that some people and organizations should have more free speech than others? That is the conservative position? And yes, in giving millions in donations and that kind of thing, that does constitute having a greater voice than say, Jane Doe Constiuent, who can only write a letter or donate $10.00.

1.)Is McCain a conservative? Why or why not?
2.)Can a conservative have some non-conservative positions and still be a bona fide conservative?
3.)Is McCain a liberal or is the far-right critics of him too far to the right?

I don't think I can say he's a rock solid right-winger, but he has been shown to have some very conservative stances, he's pro-life, tough on terror, tough on crime, opposed to socialized healthcare, opposed to new spending, voted yes on DC school vouchers, never voted for an increase in tax rates... if that's not conservative enough for you than you're not just a conservative, you're a right-wing fanatic!

Anyway, I think that being liberal on some issues dose not compromise your conservatism... if you take an unwavering right-wing position on every single issue, I would be very skeptical of your ability to think critically and independantly.

Well, we all know we have to take Mr. Limbaugh and other far-anything activists with a huge pinch of salt given their own vested financial interests in polarized candidates. It does Limbaugh no good to support a moderate Republican. He gets more buzz talk if he talks about endorsing Obama, and in private, I'm sure he would never do such a thing. It's just a stunt to gain limelight. McCain is probably conservative enough for these living, morally-blessed bastions of the Right Wing.