Full Version: Grill Guards
I was at the car wash a few hours ago. It was quite busy and I noticed a number of large vehicles - Tundras, Rams, Suburbans, F350s coming through. Many of them sported sturdy metal grill guards (I call them battering rams).
Here's a link that show you what I'm talking about.
http://www.autotrucktoys.com/dodge_dakota/...13055C1953.aspx
In seeing these vehicles, I imagined one of them rear ending another vehicle and wondered how much they would increase injury and property damage on the vehicle they hit.
Questions for debate:
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
4. Should these devices be legal?
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
Here's a link that show you what I'm talking about.
http://www.autotrucktoys.com/dodge_dakota/...13055C1953.aspx
In seeing these vehicles, I imagined one of them rear ending another vehicle and wondered how much they would increase injury and property damage on the vehicle they hit.
Questions for debate:
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
4. Should these devices be legal?
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
I'm not sure how a grill guard is anymore dangerous to another vehicle than a soft bumper followed by an engine block.
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
No more or less than any other criminal or civil penalties currently tied to an accident and fault.
4. Should these devices be legal?
Adding passive protection to your own vehicle absolutely has to be legal. Accidents are dangerous, but I have a hard time believing that we should outlaw added metal to a vehicle when so many other variables come into play during an accident [speed, direction, road conditions, etc]. Is the inent to make all vehicles equally unprotected, so if an accident occurs, the level of damage or injury is somehow more fair?
I'm not sure how a grill guard is anymore dangerous to another vehicle than a soft bumper followed by an engine block.
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
No more or less than any other criminal or civil penalties currently tied to an accident and fault.
4. Should these devices be legal?
Adding passive protection to your own vehicle absolutely has to be legal. Accidents are dangerous, but I have a hard time believing that we should outlaw added metal to a vehicle when so many other variables come into play during an accident [speed, direction, road conditions, etc]. Is the inent to make all vehicles equally unprotected, so if an accident occurs, the level of damage or injury is somehow more fair?
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
I’d say yes. It’s bad enough when a truck or SUV tangles with a passenger car (the car tends to get the majority of the damage), but worse when you figure there is a giant steel “grill of death” reinforcing the front end. I’m sure the purveyors of the grill guards (who are probably raking in tons of dough) will say they are to protect the driver from road hazards, but I am of the opinion they are deadly to other drivers and pedestrians.
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
Not only no, but hell no. The things were designed in Australia to protect against collisions with kangaroos. We don't have too many 'roos 'round here. Since the majority of owners of trucks/SUVs rarely go off road and the most dirt they will see is fine dust and the occasional pebble thrown up from the road, I see no reason other than macho posturing to have these things (see also Truck balls).
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
I believe there should be increased insurance cost to anyone who puts these monsters on their vehicles. Other than that, I don’t know what could be done beyond outlawing the nasty things.
I once rear-ended an old Chevy Blazer at 3 mph. Normally, that would have caused a minor dent, maybe some paint transfer, but in this case, the guy had a 18-inch trailer hitch extension, which punctured my front grill, the radiator, burst the battery, crumpled the hood, and completely trashed the whole front end of my Toyota Celica. I ended up with over $3000 in damages (in the early 90’s), and his vehicle was unscathed…which didn’t prevent him from trying to sue me for personal injuries. HA! Thank goodness for the due diligence of my insurance company, who determined the amount of force he would have suffered was equivalent to a sneeze.
4. Should these devices be legal?
No, not unless you’re driving in the Australian outback or on a giant cattle ranch.
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
You’d be surprised how many you can see in metropolitan Los Angeles. We have guys who have every gee gaw made for trucks and SUVs piled onto theirs. Grill guards, roll bars, hood ornaments, you name it, they’ve got it. I’ve seen trucks raised up to ridiculous heights with what look like tractor tires on them riding down the 91 freeway. Conversely, I’ve seen Hummers pimped out with low profile tires and giant spinner rims that make me laugh uncontrollably. I wonder how long those tires last on that big-@ss, heavy vehicle? There is no accounting for taste, it seems, nor practicality or safety.
I’d say yes. It’s bad enough when a truck or SUV tangles with a passenger car (the car tends to get the majority of the damage), but worse when you figure there is a giant steel “grill of death” reinforcing the front end. I’m sure the purveyors of the grill guards (who are probably raking in tons of dough) will say they are to protect the driver from road hazards, but I am of the opinion they are deadly to other drivers and pedestrians.
QUOTE
When a normal passenger car hits an adult pedestrian, the person is run not over but under, sliding over the hood and windshield. It's not an experience most of us would envy, but experts say it's the least bad outcome. Something much more dangerous happens when a pedestrian is hit by the flat, rigid front of an SUV: The body is punched away from, then under the vehicle. And if the SUV has bull bars fitted to its radiator grille, this effect is intensified. The force of the collision is concentrated on the relatively small area of the grill's bars, meaning a relatively minor accident can have drastic consequences.
<snip>
"The bull bar concentrates and magnifies the force of the collision in a tiny area," British Member of Parliament Paul Flynn explained. "It's like a stiletto heel. They turn trivial accidents into serious ones, and serious accidents into fatal ones." Mother Jones
<snip>
"The bull bar concentrates and magnifies the force of the collision in a tiny area," British Member of Parliament Paul Flynn explained. "It's like a stiletto heel. They turn trivial accidents into serious ones, and serious accidents into fatal ones." Mother Jones
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
Not only no, but hell no. The things were designed in Australia to protect against collisions with kangaroos. We don't have too many 'roos 'round here. Since the majority of owners of trucks/SUVs rarely go off road and the most dirt they will see is fine dust and the occasional pebble thrown up from the road, I see no reason other than macho posturing to have these things (see also Truck balls).
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
I believe there should be increased insurance cost to anyone who puts these monsters on their vehicles. Other than that, I don’t know what could be done beyond outlawing the nasty things.
I once rear-ended an old Chevy Blazer at 3 mph. Normally, that would have caused a minor dent, maybe some paint transfer, but in this case, the guy had a 18-inch trailer hitch extension, which punctured my front grill, the radiator, burst the battery, crumpled the hood, and completely trashed the whole front end of my Toyota Celica. I ended up with over $3000 in damages (in the early 90’s), and his vehicle was unscathed…which didn’t prevent him from trying to sue me for personal injuries. HA! Thank goodness for the due diligence of my insurance company, who determined the amount of force he would have suffered was equivalent to a sneeze.
4. Should these devices be legal?
No, not unless you’re driving in the Australian outback or on a giant cattle ranch.
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
You’d be surprised how many you can see in metropolitan Los Angeles. We have guys who have every gee gaw made for trucks and SUVs piled onto theirs. Grill guards, roll bars, hood ornaments, you name it, they’ve got it. I’ve seen trucks raised up to ridiculous heights with what look like tractor tires on them riding down the 91 freeway. Conversely, I’ve seen Hummers pimped out with low profile tires and giant spinner rims that make me laugh uncontrollably. I wonder how long those tires last on that big-@ss, heavy vehicle? There is no accounting for taste, it seems, nor practicality or safety.
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
No. If you get run over by an F350, whether or not it has a grill guard is not at the top of your worries. It is really there for exactly what its name says...to protect the grill. It is not any more dangerous to another vehicle.
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
What potential is that? Please be specific.
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
That, of course, depends on the reason they were hit, and again, whether or not the vehicle had a grill guard is almost certain to be irrelevant to the circumstances.
4. Should these devices be legal?
Is there any reason they shouldn't be? Again, please be specific.
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
Anywhere you have a hefty population of those who tend to sport suntanned necks.
No. If you get run over by an F350, whether or not it has a grill guard is not at the top of your worries. It is really there for exactly what its name says...to protect the grill. It is not any more dangerous to another vehicle.
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
What potential is that? Please be specific.
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
That, of course, depends on the reason they were hit, and again, whether or not the vehicle had a grill guard is almost certain to be irrelevant to the circumstances.
4. Should these devices be legal?
Is there any reason they shouldn't be? Again, please be specific.
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
Anywhere you have a hefty population of those who tend to sport suntanned necks.
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
To other vehicles (which these days have crumple zones, airbags, seatbelts, etc), being hit by a 2.5 ton truck moving at a cumulative speed of 130mph (say, a head-on crash between two vehicles moving at 65mph, which is what I understand to be the maximum legal speed on any public road in the USA) is going to result in death or serious injury whether or not that vehicle has grill bars.
The real danger to life and limb comes from lower speed accidents where pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists are involved. There are oodles of statistics, and even more anecdotal stories, to this effect.
Examples of both:
Peer-reviewed paper from British Medical Journal
Anecdotal opinion, albeit from a thoracic surgeon (i.e. someone to whom we could safely give more credence that a random person)
Some more anecdotes, this time from the general public
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
For pedestrians and cyclists, at least, most of these accidents are likely to be urban, and at speeds where the danger to vehicles occupants is almost non-existant, so in these collisions the only trade off is between the loss of human life on the one hand, and the loss of the cost of repairing the car or truck - likely to be covered by insurance anyway.
In other words, it's not a trade-off at all, unless the lives of people driving or riding in these things are worth more than those of pedestrians (the subgroup of which that are at greatest risk being children, of course).
From the driver's perspective, of course their life is worth more to them than a random stranger. But even in a society as individualistic as the USA, government has to value both lives equally. All but the most diehard 2nd Amendment fans accept there are places where nobody should have guns, much less use them.
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
At the widest level, higher road tax, sales tax and insurance costs for all such vehicles.
If the statistics justify it, and costs to the state (e.g. through the law enforcement attention the accidents generate) can be attributed, extra (and unavoidable) taxes placed directly on the manufacturers (or, even better, on the stockholders in the manufacturers) to "encourage" them not to fit these things as standard and not to offer them to urban or suburban customers.
Confiscation of the bars from any vehicles carrying them in urban areas.
For an individual driver, the same penalties that would normally apply, but at higher punishment levels pro rata to the increased risk posed by bull bars. So, if the risk of death in pedestrian accidents is 25% higher, the sentence and/or fine should be 25% highr too. If it's 50%, the sentence/fine should be 50% higher too. And so on.
4. Should these devices be legal?
For farmers or other rural workers they shouldn't be illegal. In fact, I don't think there's a case for making them outright illegal at all.
However, I think there's a strong case to be made for making such grills illegal in urban areas, though. Even in the gun-toting Wild West, many towns and cities made it illegal to carry guns while in town limits, so this kind of approach - as opposed to an outright ban - doesn't infringe anyone's rights.
In this scenario, you can have pointy spikes stickin out of the bars if you want when you're taking your truck up to the mountains to go for a weekend's hunting. go as Mad Max II as you like. But, on the way home, as soon as you get back onto a road where any kind of pedestrians might be, unbolt the bars or face arrest and the confiscation of your vehicle.
People already do this with snow chains - they put them on when they need them, and take them off again when the need is past. I think we should expect people to behave the same way with bull bars/roo bars etc.
5. These contraptions are prevalant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
Can't speak for the USA, but the distribution of such vehicles in the UK appears to owe rather less to the amount of rural work that these vehicle's owners do than to the fairly dim-witted excuses of "it makes me feel safe" and "I like being able to see what's going on from higher up" that the overpaid urban housewives or the posing value of being a wannabe (or genuine) drug dealer/gangster etc. I suspect this is something our cultures have in common.
To other vehicles (which these days have crumple zones, airbags, seatbelts, etc), being hit by a 2.5 ton truck moving at a cumulative speed of 130mph (say, a head-on crash between two vehicles moving at 65mph, which is what I understand to be the maximum legal speed on any public road in the USA) is going to result in death or serious injury whether or not that vehicle has grill bars.
The real danger to life and limb comes from lower speed accidents where pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists are involved. There are oodles of statistics, and even more anecdotal stories, to this effect.
Examples of both:
Peer-reviewed paper from British Medical Journal
Anecdotal opinion, albeit from a thoracic surgeon (i.e. someone to whom we could safely give more credence that a random person)
Some more anecdotes, this time from the general public
2. If so, is the protection of one vehicle worth the potential injury, death or damage to a vehicle they may hit?
For pedestrians and cyclists, at least, most of these accidents are likely to be urban, and at speeds where the danger to vehicles occupants is almost non-existant, so in these collisions the only trade off is between the loss of human life on the one hand, and the loss of the cost of repairing the car or truck - likely to be covered by insurance anyway.
In other words, it's not a trade-off at all, unless the lives of people driving or riding in these things are worth more than those of pedestrians (the subgroup of which that are at greatest risk being children, of course).
From the driver's perspective, of course their life is worth more to them than a random stranger. But even in a society as individualistic as the USA, government has to value both lives equally. All but the most diehard 2nd Amendment fans accept there are places where nobody should have guns, much less use them.
3. If someone died after being hit by a vehicle equipped with one of these, what would/should be the consequences?
At the widest level, higher road tax, sales tax and insurance costs for all such vehicles.
If the statistics justify it, and costs to the state (e.g. through the law enforcement attention the accidents generate) can be attributed, extra (and unavoidable) taxes placed directly on the manufacturers (or, even better, on the stockholders in the manufacturers) to "encourage" them not to fit these things as standard and not to offer them to urban or suburban customers.
Confiscation of the bars from any vehicles carrying them in urban areas.
For an individual driver, the same penalties that would normally apply, but at higher punishment levels pro rata to the increased risk posed by bull bars. So, if the risk of death in pedestrian accidents is 25% higher, the sentence and/or fine should be 25% highr too. If it's 50%, the sentence/fine should be 50% higher too. And so on.
4. Should these devices be legal?
For farmers or other rural workers they shouldn't be illegal. In fact, I don't think there's a case for making them outright illegal at all.
However, I think there's a strong case to be made for making such grills illegal in urban areas, though. Even in the gun-toting Wild West, many towns and cities made it illegal to carry guns while in town limits, so this kind of approach - as opposed to an outright ban - doesn't infringe anyone's rights.
In this scenario, you can have pointy spikes stickin out of the bars if you want when you're taking your truck up to the mountains to go for a weekend's hunting. go as Mad Max II as you like. But, on the way home, as soon as you get back onto a road where any kind of pedestrians might be, unbolt the bars or face arrest and the confiscation of your vehicle.
People already do this with snow chains - they put them on when they need them, and take them off again when the need is past. I think we should expect people to behave the same way with bull bars/roo bars etc.
5. These contraptions are prevalant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
Can't speak for the USA, but the distribution of such vehicles in the UK appears to owe rather less to the amount of rural work that these vehicle's owners do than to the fairly dim-witted excuses of "it makes me feel safe" and "I like being able to see what's going on from higher up" that the overpaid urban housewives or the posing value of being a wannabe (or genuine) drug dealer/gangster etc. I suspect this is something our cultures have in common.
QUOTE(BoF @ Feb 18 2008, 05:54 PM) 
Questions for debate:
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
4. Should these devices be legal?
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
1. Are the grill guards as dangerous as thet look?
4. Should these devices be legal?
5. These contraptions are prevelant in Texas - the land where the deer and macho play. Are there as many of them in other parts of the country.
1. I don't know. I mean the one on my Weber grill doesn't seem very dangerous looking. I think it adds to the look of my grill and shows my guests that I take safety seriously.
4. Absolutely! Especially for those of use who use their grill for stir fry.
5. I think so. We have a lot of deer here in NY and filleted properly venison cutlets are excellent.
I don't have a ride on grill so I can answer 2 or 3.
QUOTE(Julian @ Feb 19 2008, 10:00 AM)
The real danger to life and limb comes from lower speed accidents where pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists are involved. There are oodles of statistics, and even more anecdotal stories, to this effect.
Examples of both:
Peer-reviewed paper from British Medical Journal
Anecdotal opinion, albeit from a thoracic surgeon (i.e. someone to whom we could safely give more credence that a random person)
Some more anecdotes, this time from the general public
Examples of both:
Peer-reviewed paper from British Medical Journal
Anecdotal opinion, albeit from a thoracic surgeon (i.e. someone to whom we could safely give more credence that a random person)
Some more anecdotes, this time from the general public
Julian, these don't directly correlate injury with the grill guards, which is what would be necessary to point to the grill guards actually causing anyone the harm. I can see reading the first one that in fact grill guards could cause more injuries, but still looking for specific statistics. Even if they do, wouldn't the real solution be less running over of pedestrians, and not less grill guards?
I would also add that one of the articles points out that pedestrians could help themselves in such situations by wearing helmets. I could also see wearing orange helping as well (assuming the main cause of vehicle/pedestrian accididents is failure to see the pedestrian--I really hope its not people running over others intentionally ). Yet I don't see most of us doing that. So, to me, this seems just another example of pushing responsibility off on others, when we aren't doing the things we could be ourselves.BA... too funny! Don't think they won't confiscate your grill guard just the same, though!
Bof- I have installed these on probably 40 or so trucks for customers mostly, and I have to tell you- they are more dangerous to the truck they are installed on than anything else- they break at the mounting bolts and fold back, in a 5mph "fender bender" crash- they total your factory grill, radiator, and most of your pulley-driven junk up front.
They are "poser" items- they serve no real purpose, they usual real purpose is to hang other stuff on it- usually lights, but up here, having one of those behind your plow allows you to easily mount disconnect-connect points for your quick release fittings on your plow.
Now- if you have a custom REAL welded up grill guards- ya, that will hurt- but Bof, you kind of mistake what happens in a crash and what hurts. Pointy things sticking off the trucks make for a slightly bloodier death, because by the time you have crunched up a car enough for that stuff to get to the victim- they are dead already usually.
I have the unique viewpoint of having parted out hundreds of cars in my lifetime and sold them locally, and for some years now, on e-bay, and I get to see about every way a car can get hit, and in fatal accidents- a grill guard ain't going to make you any more dead Bof!
I build bumpers, mostly to hold winches and/or snow plows, it is a "bread and butter" item out of my shop, and I know how to build them so they are integrel to the frame and I actually usually attach it to the rear of the vehicle using torsion bars up front to anchor the plow in a manner so it doesn't flop when attaching so far back. So the wieght is usually shifted to an area behind the motor, and between the axles of the truck- so it is considered a "mid-mount"
the reason I am telling you this is because how it is mounted vs the damage it will do, to the vehicle it is attached to and the damage it will do to another vehicle,and how.
Do you ever notice that very few vehicles have the spare tire hung from the back of the SUV anymore?
It is because, in the case of a 5mph accident, it can total the entire vehicle, or, more than 5k dollars in damages. Thopugh the tire and mounting bracket have alot of steel in them, and look like they would protect everyinside the cab better because you have a tire and metal behind you that protects you- well, what really happens is the tire jumps in to the passenger compartment, because it is snapped at the mounting points, and the metal bracket tire and all that junk end up hitting you in the back of the head! In a 5mph crash, it just crumples the entire rear end of your car, shattering all the back windows, wrinkling the roof and buckling the frame on occasion, depending on how the vehicle takes the 5mph hit.
So, the impact is transfered instantly ( BTW- this entire lecture by me is also the basis for the reason of "why airbags work") to the weakest point on the item that is impacted first, - and it breaks the bolts instantly and the entire grill guard shifts back and into the radiator- and could, in very unlucky situations, actually fly over the motor and get the driver and passenger of the car!
I have seen 5mph accidents with the drill guard, and have had to fix the trucks they have come off of- and you always see th grill guard firmly wedged into the radiator.
This DOES NOT apply to a competant welder/fabricater custom built one.
Up here Bof, trucks work, and the "poser" suv's and "cowboy/soccer mom cadilacc- oh snap, there is a caddy-lac poser-truck/SUV are made fun of regulurly.
But, also, up here, most trucks and work SUVs have plows on them, some wiegh as much as your average hyundi.
and Yep, they will kill you and the guy in the truck will barely notice.
Also- Bof, the Ram's with diesels of the 12 valve variety get's nearly 20mpg in the city- so I also have the advantage of this being a good, SAFE daily driver for my children.
Mine has steel and welding equipment in the box, and a car seat in the back seat
They are "poser" items- they serve no real purpose, they usual real purpose is to hang other stuff on it- usually lights, but up here, having one of those behind your plow allows you to easily mount disconnect-connect points for your quick release fittings on your plow.
Now- if you have a custom REAL welded up grill guards- ya, that will hurt- but Bof, you kind of mistake what happens in a crash and what hurts. Pointy things sticking off the trucks make for a slightly bloodier death, because by the time you have crunched up a car enough for that stuff to get to the victim- they are dead already usually.
I have the unique viewpoint of having parted out hundreds of cars in my lifetime and sold them locally, and for some years now, on e-bay, and I get to see about every way a car can get hit, and in fatal accidents- a grill guard ain't going to make you any more dead Bof!
I build bumpers, mostly to hold winches and/or snow plows, it is a "bread and butter" item out of my shop, and I know how to build them so they are integrel to the frame and I actually usually attach it to the rear of the vehicle using torsion bars up front to anchor the plow in a manner so it doesn't flop when attaching so far back. So the wieght is usually shifted to an area behind the motor, and between the axles of the truck- so it is considered a "mid-mount"
the reason I am telling you this is because how it is mounted vs the damage it will do, to the vehicle it is attached to and the damage it will do to another vehicle,and how.
Do you ever notice that very few vehicles have the spare tire hung from the back of the SUV anymore?
It is because, in the case of a 5mph accident, it can total the entire vehicle, or, more than 5k dollars in damages. Thopugh the tire and mounting bracket have alot of steel in them, and look like they would protect everyinside the cab better because you have a tire and metal behind you that protects you- well, what really happens is the tire jumps in to the passenger compartment, because it is snapped at the mounting points, and the metal bracket tire and all that junk end up hitting you in the back of the head! In a 5mph crash, it just crumples the entire rear end of your car, shattering all the back windows, wrinkling the roof and buckling the frame on occasion, depending on how the vehicle takes the 5mph hit.
So, the impact is transfered instantly ( BTW- this entire lecture by me is also the basis for the reason of "why airbags work") to the weakest point on the item that is impacted first, - and it breaks the bolts instantly and the entire grill guard shifts back and into the radiator- and could, in very unlucky situations, actually fly over the motor and get the driver and passenger of the car!
I have seen 5mph accidents with the drill guard, and have had to fix the trucks they have come off of- and you always see th grill guard firmly wedged into the radiator.
This DOES NOT apply to a competant welder/fabricater custom built one.
Up here Bof, trucks work, and the "poser" suv's and "cowboy/soccer mom cadilacc- oh snap, there is a caddy-lac poser-truck/SUV are made fun of regulurly.
But, also, up here, most trucks and work SUVs have plows on them, some wiegh as much as your average hyundi.
and Yep, they will kill you and the guy in the truck will barely notice.
Also- Bof, the Ram's with diesels of the 12 valve variety get's nearly 20mpg in the city- so I also have the advantage of this being a good, SAFE daily driver for my children.
Mine has steel and welding equipment in the box, and a car seat in the back seat
This seems to be a lively subject in the European Union. Germany has already outlawed them, and Britain is attempting to.
This bit is from a bulletin board chat, but it makes sense:
This bit is from a bulletin board chat, but it makes sense:
QUOTE
All modern vehicles are designed to have their sheetmetal collapse in a collision in a somewhat controlled way, to absorb the shock of the collision, and this is an integral part of the vehicle safety package. If you put something out front that materially changes this, you could pass more of the collision energy through to the vehicle passenger compartment, and get less protection for occupants. In a front end crash, which is the worst from an injury/fatality standpoint, you could also change the deployment of air bags in a collision by putting a heavy enough bar assembly up front, which is why the heaviest units are generally marketed only for off road use. Finally, anything that is light guage enough to be of minimal deformation concern in an accident, is also probably flimsy enough to become a source of small projectile parts. Source
DG- to put it mildly- when it comes to automotive laws and licensing and such, and much of northern europe, they are completely insane and lack total common sense and have no freakin' idea what they are talking about- this is where the argument of "nanny state socialism" becomes very, very true in regards to this issue.
I would break it down this way-
In a collision between a little car and big truck- who loses? Seems pretty self evident, correct?
Then, when you add the grill guard, how much of the equation changes- well DG, not darned much, if any, and most of it will happen to the larger vehicle, NOT the smaller vehicle.
Like I said- you won't be any less dead by hitting a stock bumper vs an aftermarket grill guard.
Intrestingly enough- this will help my business if they outlaw the aftermarket grill guards- because I make my money off of custom bumpers, which have never had any regulation at all, and are allowed when hooking up snow plows or winches.
I make them out of 8 inch well casing that is 1/4" steel, and I make it airtight so you can put air in it, and use it to pump up a tire in an emergency.
That set up will DEFINATELY do damage compared to these silly poser-part aftermarket grill guards.
But what are you going to do about that? Outlaw utility trucks> Snow plows?
Grill guards are silly aftermarket poser parts, and it is a waste of time and money to go after them.
Snow plows, on the other hand, will kill you dead, and there isn nothing really to be done about that.
Wish I could post pics on this board- I could illustrate this much better!
I would break it down this way-
In a collision between a little car and big truck- who loses? Seems pretty self evident, correct?
Then, when you add the grill guard, how much of the equation changes- well DG, not darned much, if any, and most of it will happen to the larger vehicle, NOT the smaller vehicle.
Like I said- you won't be any less dead by hitting a stock bumper vs an aftermarket grill guard.
Intrestingly enough- this will help my business if they outlaw the aftermarket grill guards- because I make my money off of custom bumpers, which have never had any regulation at all, and are allowed when hooking up snow plows or winches.
I make them out of 8 inch well casing that is 1/4" steel, and I make it airtight so you can put air in it, and use it to pump up a tire in an emergency.
That set up will DEFINATELY do damage compared to these silly poser-part aftermarket grill guards.
But what are you going to do about that? Outlaw utility trucks> Snow plows?
Grill guards are silly aftermarket poser parts, and it is a waste of time and money to go after them.
Snow plows, on the other hand, will kill you dead, and there isn nothing really to be done about that.
Wish I could post pics on this board- I could illustrate this much better!
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 19 2008, 01:03 PM)
They are "poser" items- they serve no real purpose
Actually, CR, I did see a usefulness for one at the car wash yesterday. One of the attendants was standing on one while he cleaned the front windows. Nice scaffolding.
QUOTE(BoF @ Feb 19 2008, 11:48 AM)
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 19 2008, 01:03 PM)
They are "poser" items- they serve no real purpose
Actually, CR, I did see a usefulness for one at the car wash yesterday. One of the attendants was standing on one while he cleaned the front windows. Nice scaffolding.
Oh man, that makes him even MORE of a dweeb, real truck users KNOW you use the tires as steps!
(in fact, I have made a step that sits on top of my tire as a platform, I just throw it in back when I am done. )
I don't know about safety or utility, but most of the time I see those things, I think:
That person must not know how to drive. Keeps hitting things, maybe trees or rocks or maybe the garage wall.
Seriously though, it's probably just a fashion statement for men with image issues. It's probably good for intimidating other drivers from behind too. That might be another issue.
I drive my Jeep the way God meant it to be driven: dirty and rather scratched up from tree limbs and a few tight turns. It hasn't seen a major highway for years. I probably should replace that noisy power steering pump, but it keeps the deer away. What do you think CR, get a high perf pump and a window sticker?
That person must not know how to drive. Keeps hitting things, maybe trees or rocks or maybe the garage wall.
Seriously though, it's probably just a fashion statement for men with image issues. It's probably good for intimidating other drivers from behind too. That might be another issue.
I drive my Jeep the way God meant it to be driven: dirty and rather scratched up from tree limbs and a few tight turns. It hasn't seen a major highway for years. I probably should replace that noisy power steering pump, but it keeps the deer away. What do you think CR, get a high perf pump and a window sticker?
QUOTE
Intrestingly enough- this will help my business if they outlaw the aftermarket grill guards- because I make my money off of custom bumpers, which have never had any regulation at all, and are allowed when hooking up snow plows or winches.
Granted, CR. You live in Alaska, fer cryin' out loud, where there might be some utility involved.
I think what BoF was talking about was the poser grill guards (your description). There seems to be disagreement whether the grill guards (or bull bars) cause more damage to the owner of them or to the other vehicle in the case of an accident, but there is no denying that they are more dangerous to pedestrians. A pedestrian will go over the hood on smaller vehicles, but the big trucks/SUVs will knock a person down and run them over or throw them a good distance, depending on speed. Add the grill guard to the equation, and you're likely to have fatal crushing injuries, even at slower speeds.I'm not a big fan of aftermarket automotive doodads. The rice burners with the plastic add-on body parts and ridiculous "wings" make as little sense as grill guards, but they generally aren't lethal (not counting dumb--- street racing). They are on par with cow horns on a Cadillac to me.
"Nanny state" or not, at least Europeans have enough sense to consider the public's safety above macho posing.
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Feb 20 2008, 02:51 AM)
There seems to be disagreement whether the grill guards (or bull bars) cause more damage to the owner of them or to the other vehicle in the case of an accident, but there is no denying that they are more dangerous to pedestrians. A pedestrian will go over the hood on smaller vehicles, but the big trucks/SUVs will knock a person down and run them over or throw them a good distance, depending on speed. Add the grill guard to the equation, and you're likely to have fatal crushing injuries, even at slower speeds.
I'll be honest, I don't really understand the argument. Accidents are dangerous. There has not been to my knowledge, a comprehensive study of accidents and the rate of casualites or killed when grill guards are present. CR can correct me if I'm mistaken, but 'poseur' grill guards aren't likely to be made of material any stouter than the stock bumper. 'Real' grill guards have a purpose and are constructed for such.
I think too many people are on the "big truck makes up for smaller........shortcomings......." bandwagon. To declare these as only necessary for people that live in Alaska or similar, disparages all owners who cut wood on weekends, who hunt or fish in that perfect remote spot, who hike or camp somewhere well beyond where the paved road ends, who live in rural areas where deer induced accidents are common, etc.......
I think this is an example of a solution trying to find a problem.
QUOTE
I'm not a big fan of aftermarket automotive doodads. The rice burners with the plastic add-on body parts and ridiculous "wings" make as little sense as grill guards, but they generally aren't lethal (not counting dumb--- street racing). They are on par with cow horns on a Cadillac to me.
I couldn't agree more. If I was Emperor of America, I just might ban extended tires, neon underlights, faux spoilers, spinners and sound systems that cost triple the blue book of the vehicle. But since I'm not Emperor, to each their own.
Actually DTOM, they are A LOT weaker than the stock bumper- look how they are attached- and the type of bolts they use- it is mounted "in shear" when hit from the front- it instantly shears the bolts- where most bumpers are "in compression" when they are hit- a stronger action- but anything over 5mph and you lose the bumper as well anyway.
basically, as anything pushes on the poser bars, the top of the guard rocks back, snapping the "butter bolts" that hold them in the first place- most times, with a couple of notable exceptions- the instructions say "just for looks only" or some similar wording. - the bolts on the connection are not even grade 5!
when you engineer something like this to actually work- the bolts should be only there to locate the item, and the compression action that happens in a crash should be compresing the metal itself, and the bolts should not be used as a strong point in the mounting or use.
but really- it is a temptest in a teapot- there is no need for a law- there is nothing to say that it harms anyone any more than say, oh, putting make up on while driving or being on the cell phone!
basically, as anything pushes on the poser bars, the top of the guard rocks back, snapping the "butter bolts" that hold them in the first place- most times, with a couple of notable exceptions- the instructions say "just for looks only" or some similar wording. - the bolts on the connection are not even grade 5!
when you engineer something like this to actually work- the bolts should be only there to locate the item, and the compression action that happens in a crash should be compresing the metal itself, and the bolts should not be used as a strong point in the mounting or use.
but really- it is a temptest in a teapot- there is no need for a law- there is nothing to say that it harms anyone any more than say, oh, putting make up on while driving or being on the cell phone!
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 19 2008, 08:33 PM)
but really- it is a temptest in a teapot- there is no need for a law- there is nothing to say that it harms anyone any more than say, oh, putting make up on while driving or being on the cell phone!
Both of those things are illegal in most states. So using your logic there is a need for a law.
Most of the people I know who have huge SUVs are women so I suppose they are making up for small penises... That and all the kids they're carting around in the NY snow.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 19 2008, 04:47 PM)
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 19 2008, 08:33 PM)
but really- it is a temptest in a teapot- there is no need for a law- there is nothing to say that it harms anyone any more than say, oh, putting make up on while driving or being on the cell phone!
Both of those things are illegal in most states. So using your logic there is a need for a law.
Most of the people I know who have huge SUVs are women so I suppose they are making up for small penises... That and all the kids they're carting around in the NY snow.
NOt in all states- but who cares really? A grill guard doesn't make the driver better or worse. IN the end, the reason for accidents is probably over 90% "operator error"- real progress should be made in drivers license requirements, more instructions, tiered licensing, those things are shown to decrease all kinds of bad things- control the nut behind the wheel, control the accident rate.
Once the grill guard has intruded into the driver's compartment- the party is over anyway.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 19 2008, 09:11 PM)
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 19 2008, 04:47 PM)
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 19 2008, 08:33 PM)
but really- it is a temptest in a teapot- there is no need for a law- there is nothing to say that it harms anyone any more than say, oh, putting make up on while driving or being on the cell phone!
Both of those things are illegal in most states. So using your logic there is a need for a law.
Most of the people I know who have huge SUVs are women so I suppose they are making up for small penises... That and all the kids they're carting around in the NY snow.
NOt in all states- but who cares really? A grill guard doesn't make the driver better or worse. IN the end, the reason for accidents is probably over 90% "operator error"- real progress should be made in drivers license requirements, more instructions, tiered licensing, those things are shown to decrease all kinds of bad things- control the nut behind the wheel, control the accident rate.
Once the grill guard has intruded into the driver's compartment- the party is over anyway.
I'm with you. I'm not entirely against silly doo-dads on the car. I think they're looking at banning those spinny rims here in NY... I think they look stupid but I don't think they should be illegal.
A coworker who owns a couple of orange groves just got a buckstop guard http://www.buckstop.biz/features.html
it is called a buckstop (read bambi basher) for a reason.
but in the event of a collision, with his truck just about anything short of a tank is going to lose to begin with.
it is called a buckstop (read bambi basher) for a reason.
but in the event of a collision, with his truck just about anything short of a tank is going to lose to begin with.
QUOTE(GuardianAngel @ Feb 19 2008, 09:36 PM)
A coworker who owns a couple of orange groves just got a buckstop guard http://www.buckstop.biz/features.html
it is called a buckstop (read bambi basher) for a reason.
but in the event of a collision, with his truck just about anything short of a tank is going to lose to begin with.
it is called a buckstop (read bambi basher) for a reason.
but in the event of a collision, with his truck just about anything short of a tank is going to lose to begin with.
Plus you get a winch! Yeah baby, 'cept I wonder how the thing performs with Wapiti (aka elk)? Deer are so small, just big dogs on long legs. Then there are the freerange wandering cows.
So I can see the need for real grill guards to protect those vehicles without noisy power steering pumps.
Er, anyone hear of a semi truck? Don't think a pickup would win. A tank might not either, depending on load and velocity.
Anyway, here's a little clip of a biker hitting a deer and winning:
I don't know, could be fake
I've witnessed vehicles hitting deer, it's pretty common around here. The deer tend to stay in one piece and there's lots of blood. One way to avoid them is to pay attention and slow down. It works for me (knocking on wood).
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Feb 20 2008, 12:29 PM)
QUOTE(GuardianAngel @ Feb 19 2008, 09:36 PM)
A coworker who owns a couple of orange groves just got a buckstop guard http://www.buckstop.biz/features.html
it is called a buckstop (read bambi basher) for a reason.
but in the event of a collision, with his truck just about anything short of a tank is going to lose to begin with.
it is called a buckstop (read bambi basher) for a reason.
but in the event of a collision, with his truck just about anything short of a tank is going to lose to begin with.
Plus you get a winch! Yeah baby, 'cept I wonder how the thing performs with Wapiti (aka elk)? Deer are so small, just big dogs on long legs. Then there are the freerange wandering cows.
So I can see the need for real grill guards to protect those vehicles without noisy power steering pumps.
Er, anyone hear of a semi truck? Don't think a pickup would win. A tank might not either, depending on load and velocity.
Anyway, here's a little clip of a biker hitting a deer and winning:
I don't know, could be fake
I've witnessed vehicles hitting deer, it's pretty common around here. The deer tend to stay in one piece and there's lots of blood. One way to avoid them is to pay attention and slow down. It works for me (knocking on wood).
believe it or not florida especially central florida where i live has ALOT of cattle, second only to citrus
so the idea of a cow in the road is not out of the question. we have a couple of incidents a year of people getting crushed by flying beef.
QUOTE(GuardianAngel @ Feb 20 2008, 08:55 AM)
believe it or not florida especially central florida where i live has ALOT of cattle, second only to citrus
so the idea of a cow in the road is not out of the question. we have a couple of incidents a year of people getting crushed by flying beef.
so the idea of a cow in the road is not out of the question. we have a couple of incidents a year of people getting crushed by flying beef.
This is precisely why my Weber Grill has a guard! How many barbecue guests must needlessly die each year? Won't someone please think of the children? Children with hot dogs sticking out of their foreheads!!! Think of them! Running across the lawn in circles slipping on their own brain juices and hot dog grease!
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