I know Americans get really introverted when there's a US election coming up, but I thought perhaps a few people might have opinions on a few other world events here at

Link.

Kosovo is should be noted has more or less been Serbian since the 10th century and the Albanian ethnic minority (of Serbia) have been seeking Kosovan unification with Albania since the first world war. Since the mid 1980's (prior to the Balkans conflicts in Bosnia) Kosovan Serbs have been complaining of ethnic cleansing and Slobodan Milosovic used these complaints as a means to justify his own nationalist excesses. The USA and the EU both have vested interests in a Kosovo independent of the Serbian capital Belgrade (and thus Moscow) and this has produced many angry observations right across Europe regarding hypocrisy.


Questions for consideration:

Should the world recognise an independent Kosovo?

Is this an example of democracy in action, or war by demographics?

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?

Should the world recognized an independent Kosovo?
I'm certainly no expert in Balkan politics, but if Kosovars have had enough of being treated as rural second class citizens by Belgrade, then exercising their self determination should be welcomed and recognized.

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?
From my very basic understanding of the geography of Kosovo, I believe the Serb minority are generally grouped together. Perhaps that portion of Kosovo should have been incorporated into Serbia instead of an independent Kosovo; assuming of course they wished that to be so.

Should the world recognise an independent Kosovo?

Not in my opinion. This will almost inevitably start a cascade of unintended but related consequences that will have to be dealt with. First, Bosnian Serbs will seek independence for Republika Srpska....something the Badinter Commission had previously as a violation of international law. By what basis of international law can anyone claim now that Srpska cannot be an independent state if Kosovo is accepted as one? And so on...

Is this an example of democracy in action, or war by demographics?
War by demographics.

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?

I think so. I could be convinced otherwise on this matter...these are my thoughts right now.

Basically I'm torn in this issue. On the one hand, the Serbs have not covered themselves in glory with regard to any of the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. While atrocities were committed on all sides, the Serbs were the most apt to turn to violence and so the ones who should have earned the least say in what happens next.

Should the world recognise an independent Kosovo?

Yes, but in doing so it should recognise the implications and precedents that this sets. The least enthusiastic nations for Kosovan independence are China and Russia, who both have good reasons not to want to give anyone the idea that you can become an independent state just because you want to. Especially the people living in Chechnya and Tibet, for example.

Just as the 18th, 19th & 20th century world did when it recognise the United States of America, Australia, New Zealand, the Republic of South Africa, and any number of other nation states that were created by an influx of foreigners who overwhelmed the native population.

Kosovo may be the most recent example, but it is far from being the only one.

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?

Not really - Spanish Basques have yet to peacefully mobilise a political independence movement (they're still using bombs and guns), and French Basques don't really mind being French all that much. Most of the ill-feeling in the Spanish Basque country is comparatively recent, dating from the systematic repression of non-Castilians during the Franco era. The neighbouring Catalans also want a degree of autonomy, and (like the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish here in the UK) they are mostly getting it.

But I can see your concern, and up to a point I share it. Catalonia, Euskaria, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland; these are all places where the original ethnic inhabitants were invaded, persecuted and then colonised and governed from afar, whereas in Kosovo, it's the "invaders" or rather the colonisers/newcomers who are doing the seceding.

There is some precedent for that, too, which is why the official language of the USA is English and not Chocktaw, Cherokee or Mohawk.

It's also important to remember that the proposal is to create an independent Kosovo, and not an entity which will merge into a greater Albania; if (as is the EU's hope) it becomes an EU member state eventually, it's doubtful whether union with Albani will ever happen. The same goes for Serbia.

Is this an example of democracy in action, or war by demographics?

I think it might be both, but I'm not sure that demography is a recognised tool of war. Isn't war a directed agressive effort to acheive some aim or another? I doubt very much that the ethnic Albanians had any special plans for Kosovo 50 year ago; their ambitions for autonomy only became real for them once they were already an overwhelming majority.

It might be a lesson in the demographic effects of repeated wars and ethnic cleansing having unintended (and in fact diametrically opposite) effects to those desired by the aggressors.

It might also be a warning on the long-term effects of continued large-scale immigration. Personally, as we've discussed before, I'm less worried on how this might translate into Muslim populations in Western Europe, because so far they've followed the demographic pattern of every other influx (secularisation of the majority creating anger and frustration in remaining adherents) so my own expectation is that, while things might get worse before they get better, and there would be problems if doors are left open forever, the only really long term legacy of Muslims in Europe will be architecture, language, culture (by which I mean art, music and so on, not FGM and honour killings) and food related.

Should the world recognise an independent Kosovo?

Would the world recognize such is what I doubt. Genocides can be occurring and no one has to care, unless you happen to invade oil rich Kuwait its kind of difficult really to get people to care. Eddie Izzard I think made a good comment on that with the idea that its ok for a madman to kill millions of his own as long as he stays in his own nation or what not.

Is this an example of democracy in action, or war by demographics?

I knew a person who lived during that conflict. He said some things that make me question exactly the state of peace over there. I mean how do you go from an ethnic cleaning type environment to happiness, what is the steps or how many generations does that take really…

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?

Of course. I think there is a huge problem with any step like that in which large groups of people get displaced permanently. I don’t understand how someone could think such actions resulting in peace even if you were evicting pacifists. I think ultimately that’s what you end up doing. Lets say for instance this occurs, would peace persist? That should be the prime question, or else the world communities drive I guess is about other things, more so when they are so apt not to come together on any real standards, mostly again because of selfish human nature I would think, and the prime reason I doubt this would work.

Would America consider letting half of Florida become independent because a lot of Cuban and Cuban-Americans
wanted a new country? That's what's happening in Serbia.

The US just wants to put a Military base in Kosovo. So they are recognizing Kosovo as a new country.
This was explained to me by some (Credible honest )Americans-Serbs.

Good discussion.

Questions for consideration:

Should the world recognise an independent Kosovo?
Probably. When Serbia lost the war and Kosovo was put first under the jurisdiction of NATO and then the UN, they lost effective control. Kosovo is defacto a separate political entity and as such that is the point of departure, not Kosovo as part of a wider unity. The real question has little to do with principle and a lot to do with which would be the more stable outcome. If someone can make the case that going back to having it be part of greater Serbia would bring the surer peace, then I could be persuaded to change my views.

Is this an example of democracy in action, or war by demographics?
Both.

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?
Yes to a degree but each situation is unique. Serbia initiated conflict with its neighbors and eventually with the very public shelling of Sarejevo and other atrocities conducted by ethnic Serbians backed by Milosevitch , causing an international outcry, NATO's hand was finally forced. I'm not sure there would have been a Western intervention in Kosovo without the events leading up to it. I also think there was a fear that if things got out of hand a broader Christian-Muslim conflict might break out. I think some version of the Balkan spark that began World War 1 was in a lot of folks minds. Plus I think in the aftermath of the Cold War NATO was looking for a new role for itself and this fell into their lap. Independence would seem to be the natural final chapter.

1.) We recognize Taiwan and more-or-less, Tibet. China is a bigger threat than Serbia, I daresay. However, the fear is in the Red Square, sure. But it's always been in America's foreign policy to prop up the little guy, at least since World War Two where we kind of didn't and Germany was taken by Nazimania.

2.) Definitely war by demographics, but how else can you achieve anything in a democracy? Vested interests sway voting blocks and determine support of positions of candidates. It's a cause-and-effect relationship.

3.) It's a crying shame, but those who scream the loudest can sometimes move mountains. No slight against the Civil Rights Movement, but those people shaped destiny of a nation. Minorities can and will do it.

Should the world recognise an independent Kosovo?

Using their current method no. Through traditional vetting methods, sure.

Is this an example of democracy in action, or war by demographics?

This is a precedent setting example of geopolitics, and a dangerous one at that. The declaration is based on the unilateral motivation of the Serbs and will by-pass UN approval. Remember Kosovo's status was fixed in 1999 with UN resolution 1244. Today's declaration nullifies that.

This is dangerous because if EU and US support the measure they will effectively allow Kosovo to side step the Veto powers of Russia and China within the Security Council. They will open the door for other territories such as Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Taiwan to follow their precedent. In essence any multi-ethnic region no longer has to be make a case for separation, they merely have to act and hope a large power backs them up. Such a loose definition would even leave Canada open to the Quebecois succession.

Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?

From the reports I've read the Albanians do not want the separation to occur. In Belgrade youth street gangs have protested the declaration by rioting in the streets. Kosovo is rich in mineral including coal, zinc, silver and gold. Do you think the Albanians would let them go easily in midst of a commodity boom?

The only think I will add is that there is not nearly enough emphasis placed on determining if this succession is based on genuine local popular will or an attack from foreign powers to splinter a weaker state. The difference is huge.

With respect Julian, I believe this point of view, whilst common, is biased by the media. Everything I've read regarding the various 'post communism wars' in the Balkans indicates that atrocities were committed by all sides. In Bosnia for example, the Serbs are largely regarded as the 'bad guys' and yet 25% of the murdered were Serbs. People in the west seem to have concluded that the Bosnian Muslims were the victims as opposed to the defeated and very few people at all appear to have even noticed how many atrocities were carried out by the Croats. I've read several times that the Croats were gearing up for the conflict with the Serbs long before the world took notice of the break up of Yugoslavia. In particular I keep coming across references to Croat lobbyism in Washington as having a far greater impact on how the conflict was ultimately resolved. One thing is for sure, Danish soldiers stationed in the Balkans between the Serbs and Croats were regularly used, against their intentions as human shields by the Croats. Danish commanders on the ground complained about this to their superiors and nothing was done about it. Eveentually, the Croats took to shelling the Danish UN troops when ever it was in their interests to do so. At no point were the Croats made accountable for their excessive behaviour, not against Bosnian Serbs or Muslims or against UN peace keepers.

Today, Danish military units are in Kosovo, serving there as UN peace keepers. What is notable is that when ever Kosovan Serbs tread out of line, the Danish soldiers are called upon to 'police them'. When the Kosovan Albanians act out of line, the Danish soldiers are told to look the other way. There is a strong inference that 'the Serbs are getting what they deserve'. Though this is never said out loud, its self evident when both the police and KFOR stand idly by whilst Muslim Albanians set fire to Serb churches... VIDEO

Looking at why the Serbs are treated thus quickly leads to the matter of Serbian troops ethnically cleansing Albanian Kosovans in 1999. Type Ethnic Cleansing Kosovo into Google and first in the list you'll find a US state dept report which says...

QUOTE(US gov)

The number of victims whose bodies have been burned or destroyed may never be known, but enough evidence has emerged to conclude that probably around 10,000 Kosovar Albanians were killed by Serbian forces.

Link.

...dig a little deeper though and you start to find other perspectives: This one for example is from the Roma of the region (and how often do you get to hear about whats happening to them in the western media?)
Link.
I find it hard to accept that 10,000 (estimated) victims of ethnic cleansing justifies the fast track recognition of an independent Kosovo, when (an estimated) 300,000 victims of ethnic cleansing justifes universal indifference.

Whats the actual difference in this imbalance? I am fairly certain I know why the EU wants to see an independent Kosovo. Its called divide and conquer. I'm less certain about the USA, but I suspect Moscow's proximity to Serbia plays a role.


Actually the ethnic Albanians most certainly did have special plans for Kosovo 50 years ago, and even fuurther back as I pointed out in my initial post. In point of fact, Muslim Albanians have been claiming autonomy for 'Greater Albania' from the Slavic peoples since at least 1878 when the League of Prizren was established in Kosovo with the purpose of creating 'Greater Albania'. If you look further back into history you'll see that Kosovo has been a point of contention between the Christian Slavs and the Muslim Ottomans ever since Suleiman the Magnificent entered Belgrade. The conflict we see today is a direct legacy of Suleiman's European campaign. I have to add that I am not surpised that the most volatile region of Europe is where Islam has its oldest foot hold in the continent... I am surprised though that the western powers seem to think that Kosovo under Muslim Albanian rule will ever be a stable state. All the evidence points to the contrary.

An interesting detail about the League of Prizren is that today, the same Prizren, whilst being the scene of more church burnings is also home to the last few Jewish families left in Kosovo (all the others have long since fled). Its going to be interesting how long these last few Jews remain now that Saudi Arabia is importing Wahabism to the region. Who knows? Maybe the dirt poor Albanians will reject well funded Wahabism....


I see two immediate, and compelling problems with your analysis. First, the sheer scale of Muslim immigration into Europe out weighs any previous influx of exterior ethnic people's and second, the amount of Muslims still waiting to get in is far greater than the total population of Europe.

I do not believe Kosovo should have been recognized as an independent state so fast. In doing so I believe the western powers have demonstrated an unfair bias against the Serbs. The Serbs are certainly guilty of many atrocities, but so to are the Kosovan Albanians, the Bosnians and the Croats and yet of these, only the Serbs are continually regarded as 'the bad guys'. Put simply, the Kosovan Albanians, whilst having the democratic right to their own state, have not shown themselves worthy, nor any where near worthy of such immediate international recognition.

We don't formally recognize Taiwan as independent. Even Taiwan has never taken the step of formally declaring its independence as Kosovo just did....because it would mean a war with China.

Bottom line on this issue, the territorial integrity of Serbia is protected under international law. Kosovo has to go through the proper channels in order to do this legally. They have not. That doesn't necessarily mean UNSC formal approval by vote. It can be circumvented, but Kosovo hasn't gone through those channels yet and until it does we should not formally recognize them. If we do, we are not only hypocrites, we are opening pandora's box for expediency. I also predict Kosovo will get an invitation into NATO shortly....What a nightmare this could become.

Newsflash: The US embassy in Belgrade was attacked.

What? A decision by the Bush Administration adds fuel to simmering fire?
Anybody out there want to tell me again the importance of "experience"!
A volatile country with a distinct set of ethnicities that historically have an intense hatred of each others. The Sunni and Shia........oops

Wrong country I apologize.

Should the world recognized an independent Kosovo?
Is it hypocrisy to allow the Albanian peoples to 'annex' a part of Serbia when so many other regions with an ethnic majority (example, the Basques in Spain) remain under the rule of existing states?
Did we let the South go? We should be very careful about decisions that can result in widespread pain and suffering. Even a bystander could recognize the region is only just staying stable and the history of the region illustrates clearly they will go after each other at the drop of a hat.
I agree with Mrs P here

There's a movement in the Scottish parliament to establish an independent country of Scotland and not just another province in the British island.

There's a movement in Quebec to invest it as a separate country from the rest of Canada.

These movements exist everywhere. It's how Lesotho came to be born. International law doesn't mean much to people who didn't help write it. People who write international law, by and large, have firmly-outlined borders and aren't in danger of losing land. Kosovo is inherently right in their move for independence.

I don't really understand this response. Quebec did appeal to become an independent country. Its appeal was denied. Should it simply declare itself independent anyway and should we then recognize it as an independent country? Kosovo has done so. They aren't "moving towards independence" they have declared independence.

I didn't have a hand in writing the laws that run the state I currently live in. Should I obey those laws or simply disregard them? Furthermore, and more important to the point, Kosovo's independent status depends on international recognition. They cannot simply disregard the international community's laws and expect recognition (or certainly shouldn't).

International law mucks everything up. You can certainly bet five hundred years ago in Europe that no one consulted the UN to form a new country. It happened and if the military force could protect it, it endured. The legal proceedings are just one country's attempt to smother the ideals of another.

You vote, and therefore have a hand in successive laws. The nation group of Kosovo voted, was denied, and did what our own Consitution says is okay: to create a government if the one you're dealing with is despotic. From their point of view, Serbia is despotic.

Yes, I believe they should. Borders are flexible. Heck, Africa was chopped up by Europeans in the nineteenth century. Borders are forced on people who cannot defend the ones they set in place for themselves. When did we evolve into this world of black and white territorial claims?

Well, Kosovo now exists under the protection of the UN and NATO. Should the troops leave and let the "new Kosovo" defend itself as an independent country without any protection? Fine with me. If they want a civil war let them have it, but that isn't what is happening. As long as the international community protects its borders it needs to play by the rules.

The British are now sending 1,000 troops to the Balkans. It's last remaining reserve unit is going to be deployed on operations, due to this move by Kosovo.

Mrs P- correct me if I am wrong- but didn't the albanians achieve what they wanted by ethnic cleansing of the serbs in Kosovo?


How do we recognize a state that became a state by ethnic cleansing?

Haven't the Kurds declared themselves independent? Why aren't we supporting this much, much, MUCH more valid claim of the Kurds, while allowing the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo for ethnic albanians?

On 'Democracy Now' two writers familiar with the Kosovo situation debate the matter of history and the present arguments around independence. This is the transcript but the audio and video are available also.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/22/sama...eremy_scahill_a

I think so. There have certainly been a rash of human rights violations committed by the Kosovo Albanians against the Kosovo Serbs since the air war ended, which would qualify as pogroms. Obviously the motive was revenge, and I can sympathize, but it's hugely hypocritical in asserting human rights as a basis for independence while so many Serbs were forced out of Kosovo, and those remaining live in appalling conditions.

Furthermore, Kosovo is rife with terrorist cells. We considered the KLA to be a terrorist agency ourselves until the late '90s. It was a crackdown by the Serbs in response to the KLA that truly led to the ethnic cleansing. Both sides here have behaved very very badly. I think the only hope for reconciliation is time. Lots of time, with older generations dying out. Accepting this independence so readily is a huge mistake and opens wounds that were actually healing. The Serbs no longer hated us so intensely. Well, that's blasted to bits now. Yugoslavia was a ruthless place to live throughout history. Not a lot of good guys behaving well during wars in that area of the world. The Italians were far more fearful of the Yugoslavians during the last great war than the soldiers of any other country.



Well, there you go. Exactly.



Interesting link, Dingo. I tend to side with Jeremy Scahill's overall point on this, but I disagree with some of what was said. I don't believe that the body count for those missing was ever so low as 2,700. In the Srebrenica massacre alone (where the Serbs stormed the UN safehaven and made human shields of the Dutch peacekeepers, killing every male man and child inside) 8000 people were slaughtered at one time. That doesn't include all of the slaughtering that went on just to get the ethnic Albanians to leave their homes en masse and huddle into that safe haven. That was in 1995, so I also find the assertion that the slaughtering was worse after the air bombing a bit specious in that context. And they made vast use of human shields, so there's some crying wolf.

Always lovely chatting with you.

I don't have a problem with Kosovo being a UN protectorate. It did Rwanda a lot of good. Anyway, the more international support coming into the region, the less sway Russia will hold. Kosovo is strategically placed, which is why the US delegations are all brushing up on their dialects.

They've had a civil war. By and by, they lost. International presence is to keep it from happening again. But they tried the legal way. It didn't work. By your philosophy, the US wouldn't exist because it was a violation of British international law. Countries are formed this way, it's just nature.

Hmm, well, I guess we are pretty lucky Putin is in control- because the Russian people sure seem to favor giving massive military aid- including nukes- to serbia to win back thier country.

It is odd that American TV doesn't report on what is happening in Russia during something like this- because it is a very scary thing to me- those folks are the most xenophobic and paranoid, as a society, of invasion, of any in the world- and there is a very, very large population of Russia that feel this is another US imperialist country-grab, in an attempt to eventually invade Russia itself. Not far off considering thier countries history, and our history of oppression and invasion.

I think we are going to see a new round of terrorism, and a much scarier new terrorist soon. Or, rather, in this case, a new type of freedom fighter, and a much more scary freedom fighter.

I think Serbia will probably jettison all ties with Europe, and go to Russia- and China- and a new arms race at some point. And, considering how incredibly unfair this decision is, and how we allowed ethnic cleansing in the region.

Quite frankly- the Serbians had WON the war, until we stepped in.

Meh. I can't see Serbia subjugating itself like that. Chechnya is in dire straits trying to get out of the situation Serbia would be rushing into.

It doesn't make much sense, does it? The Russian people may be wary of outsiders, but they have a long track record of imperialism mostly for the benefit of the motherland. The idea of Serbia contributing very much to that fold seems laughable.

Kosovo, on the other hand, is very much in Russia's self-interest to suppress. I'm not suggesting saber-rattling, but the international community needs to send a clear message that nations need to take their own course without superpowers mucking up the mix.

Um, dude, Kosovo only exists BECAUSE of the super powers- we basically etnically cleansed the area of serbs for the ethnic albanians. If not for superpower intervention- there would be no debate on this issue.

Serbia and the old Yugoslavia were NOT vassals of Russia- no more than Canada is our vassal, despite the similarities of culture and close proximity. They are just traditional allies against- um, Muslims.

Why are we backing the ethnic albanians again?

There is some returning Russia by western backed coups- the orange revolution in Ukraine was a bust, well, damn, pretty much every former "satellite" country that "went western" is finding out they don't like it so much- thier standard of living plummeted, and corruption actually got worse, and crime got worse, basically, the pro-western mafias took over- similar to what yeltsin was- the kleptocracy of yeltsin set Russia way back.

I don't see any of those countries, including Russia, turning into a totalitarian/Stalinist state, but I do see alot of "pushback" going on in those countries- do you agree?

I have no problem with superpowers protecting countries, but hacking them into life is... stupid.

Beats me.

I see a lot of old ideas being invoked from the past hundred years, yes. That's not necessairly a bad thing. What bothers me is how Russia could play in this theater and muck things up for Kosovo.

The scary thing to me is how clueless the west seems to be over the outrage in Russia. They may not be the big dog on the block- but they can inflict a hell of a bite!

AND they have cultural and ethnic ties going back hundreds of years with Serbia. Not to be discounted.

Their economic interest in the region makes them the big dog as far as a country like Serbia is concerned. America isn't doing a lot to vitalize the economy of Serbia or Kosovo right now, except perhaps in the nicest sense prop it up. Russia was able to use its might to shut down the electricy of Latvia or Estonia [forgive me for forgetting which], so that would seem a rather tragic byproduct of agitating the motherland. Perhaps Serbia knows this.

I just read an op-ed I'm in basic agreement with here. This spells the situation out rather aptly, IMO.

Yesterday, the UN War Crimes tribunal acquitted Ramush Haradinaj, a former commander of the KLA of committing war crimes during the 1998-99 Kosovo conflict with Serbia.

I think this belongs on this thread because it is more of the same. There were 100 direct witnesses, and there is strong evidence that they were frightened into not testifying. This person is a horror of a human being. The KLA criminal is freed because the population of Kosovo considers him to be a hero. The international community is cowed. This result rewards and encourages intimidation. And Russia and Serbia are right to view this as "victor's justice." That message is pretty clear.

I think this also helps the Russians in solidifying some allies here- we are talking about a group just as evil as anything the Serbs, Croats have churned out- and instead of healing, we have a new generation of those radicalized and the hatred passed on.