I don’t usually do long introductions to threads, but I am going to do so with this one. I remember from my days as a kid that there was a certain trust factor between teachers and parents. This was also evident when I started my first teaching job and remained so until about the beginning of the 1990s. Then things began to change and I would suggest that this trust factor has continued to erode until now, even as I write this. Not only has the bond of trust been broken, but from responses in this thread, Click Here, mistrust has become open hostility. I have noted this in other threads as well.

If I am correct in my assumptions, I have these questions for debate:

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

2. Why has it happened?

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

Please keep in mind that I’ve been retired for six years, so I’m not approaching this as an insider.

What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?
Wow. That's really a key question.

First I think is politics and the blame game. When problems arise in the school there is one faction that blames the neglectful parents and another the ineffectual
teachers.

This is a real boon for politicians, pitting these groups against one another to create passion without actually having to implement many policy proposals, just endless debates over merit pay and PTA involvement.

Second is the culture of fear.

We are inundated by molestation scandals and other creepy tales of what can happen to our kids when our backs are turned.

Third is socioeconomics.

It used to be that teaching was a respectable middle class profession. School teachers were role models.

Now teaching is considered a low-wage job and our classist society has heaped the requisite disdain upon all such public school teachers.

Now what to do about it.

Better pay, better study on what's actually wrong in ours schools and a more realistic view of the threats that face kids in school.

I think the bond of trust is broken when parents feel alienated, when they aren't listened to, and feel that their children's best interest aren't being served. Prince Williams County is finding this out as parents are homeschooling their children upon being disgusted with being ignored by the district. Being "supportive" means helping with your child's education, it doesn't mean putting the school or administrators ahead of your own kid.

The general lack of respect for authority that became acceptable in the 60s.

Authority didn't appear to need to be respected. I don't think that one can simply point to the 60s and say it's their fault. It seems more to the point that that's when it became prevalent. There has always been some disrespect for authority. It just came out and became somewhat hostile. But go ahead and draft people into a war they don't believe in and I think you'll see the same results.

Teachers need a generation or two to actually respect them.

***

We're lucky to have great kids and one that is clearly very smart (read he tests well and is in constant danger of being skipped ahead) so that we get along with their teachers. Plus, my wife and I grew up respecting our teachers as well as Police et al.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?
Speaking as both a parent and teacher, I think communication (lack thereof) is a HUGE issue. Parents aren't available and teachers don't reach out. This relates to parental involvement, which seems to have drastically decreased since I was in school. The expectation that schools should take on the full responsibility for a child's education is part of the problem. That parents are frustrated with failing schools and the seeming lack of concern for fixing these failing schools is another part of the problem. I think perhaps it's more of a lack of trust between parents and the school system, not necessarily the teachers themselves. Another issue is pay and the lack of respect for the role teacher's play in our children's lives. This is not just from adults but from children, too. Children used to look up to their teachers...now, not so much. I remember adoring all but 2 of my teachers (those particular teachers had no business being teachers) and was taught that teachers are incredibly important. The apparent increase in the amount of homework (I had a TON of homework in elementary school) frustrates many parents...just what are they doing all day in school if they've got 2 hours of homework a night? That's an issue of standardized testing and the all-but-elimination of anything other than reading and math from the curriculum.

2. Why has it happened?
There are a lot of reasons. Everyone's blaming the other side. Parents blame the teachers/schools, Teachers blame the parents. We also live in a different climate where many more women work outside of the home and simply aren't able to volunteer in the classroom and/or PTA in the capacity that they did 20+ years ago.

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?
Figure out how to open up the lines of communications again...parents and teachers need to be on the same page instead of battling each other. I think there are many parents who just are not involved and that makes it nearly impossible for teachers to reach out, but there are also plenty of teachers who don't communicate with parents who ARE involved. It works both ways (or DOESN'T work EITHER way).

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

From talking to teacher friends here in Blighty, the worst thing is not that teachers have been boxed into a corner vis a vis imposing discipline (because only weak teachers have a problem with imposing discipline without using violence or the fear of it; we all know of a little old man or lady who never raised their hand to anyone yet all the kids were scared of crossing) but that - almost across the board, parents side with their kids now in any dispute of their behaviour, rather than siding with the teachers (or indeed with any other adult).

2. Why has it happened?

A number of factors have come into play.

Schools themselves have adopted child-centred practices - every kid gets called by their first name, for example, and there are no longer "pupils" (implying passive consumers who have education done to them) or "scholars" (the Victorian term that simply describe someone being at school) but "students" (which, wrongly at all but undergraduate levels and above, implies that the kids are the ones actively pursuing their education. They aren't.)

Media-stoked fear of paedophilia, along with longer working hours and community breakdown, means that one the one hand almost everyone in the neighbourhood is a stranger these days, and that one the other strangers are not to be trusted (not only by kids, which is fair enough, but by other adults too).

And, on top of that, a broad media thrust towards "good parenting" and a trend to smaller family sizes, longer working hours, atomisation of the extended family, and more single parents (the majority of whom still arise through divorce, not irresponsibility) has made most parents worried, deep-down about how good they are at parenting.

So if a teacher tells a parent that little Jimmy is a bully or is disruptive in class, etc., a 1950s, 60s or 70s parent was more likely to side with the teacher and scowl down at the kid, say "you're in big trouble when you get home", etc.

An 80s, 90s and 00s parent is increasingly likely to side with the kid and refuse to believe anything bad anyone says about them, and even punch out the teacher (one of my teacher friends has seen this happen more than once).

This is not limited to teachers; any adult who tells off a kid who isn't theirs is these days subjected to a tirade of abuse from the kid (and probably always was), but runs the risk of the parent finding out and then coming looking for confrontation. And woe betide anyone who raises a child's bad behaviour with the parent - it is usually taken as a slight on their parneting skills.

All of this is not helped by a culture-wide mythologising of childhood - kids are now supposed to be inherently good, angelic things that only do bad things because of some past harm that has been done to them, rather than intrinsically amoral beings that have to be taught, and to learn or themselves, how to behave, the difference between right and wrong, good manners, etc.

And I think that, in turn, stems from the popularisation of Freudian psychology, where people are the puppets of past experience, rather than beings with free will. (Wide ranging enough for you? )

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

Well, it won't be simple, quick or easy, since whole trends in society are at fault, not just one thing.

But I detect hopeful trends - there seem to be the first stirrings of a shift away from endless psychoanalysis and drug treatment towards Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, on the grounds that one tends to help identify the causes of problems without doing much to solve them, while the other is pragmatically focused on solving them without worrying too much about the causes.

If that continues, maybe society will begin to realise that how we treat children needs to shift from treating them with kid gloves as if the most important thing about them is that they need to be protected from things, and towards treating them as beings that need to learn and experience things, and not just in school.

Ultimately, I think the role of schools and parents taken together is not to teach kids what to know, or what to think. Between them, the most important thing is to teach kids how to think.

For this reason, science, or rather the philosophy and structure of the scientific method, should be as compulsory as English or mathematics, rather than an option like French or geography.

Very good points, Julian. I can't tell you how many times I've heard excuse after excuse from parents about why their kids act like monsters and/or why they can't participate in their child's education. Parents DO take their child's side more often than not and it's done in a way that is not healthy to a positive parent/child-teacher relationship. I had issues with a particular teacher in 6th grade and my mom took my side because I was a good kid who never got in trouble and who always did what I was supposed to. The teacher conveniently "lost" my homework (but never lost anyone else's) on multiple occasions. She also "forgot" that she'd already graded and sent home assignments even though she claimed I didn't turn them in...she was truly a nutjob. But that is certainly an exception to the rule. Now, parents are excusing everything from cursing at teachers/other students, bullying (this is usually the worst...the bully's parents are usually the ones who make the most excuses), etc. It's funny because they kids whose parents are the best-behaved and most involved are the ones who are most often apologizing to teachers.

My daughter is a good girl and the extent of her 'bad' behavior is that she gets stuck in la-la land sometimes and has to be reminded to focus/pay attention (hey, she gets that from her mama). I have extremely high expecations of her and how she is to behave (whether it be in school, at home, or anywhere else). I can honestly say that I never, ever got in trouble at school (never so much as had my name on the board) and I don't expect any less from my daugther. She is the first one to tell me if she did something she wasn't supposed to, which is almost always related to paying attention/following directions, something we work on CONSTANTLY since he has always been prone to these focus issues. If she does not pay attention in class, she writes an apology letter to the teacher. I let teachers know ahead of time that she has trouble paying attention at times, but that I expect her to be called on it. I don't want her to get used to being allowed to do whatever she wants simply because she's a very smart and well-behaved kid. Teachers have said "well, it doesn't really matter because she understands the material already". Yes, she's very bright, but when she's in 3rd grade, she might come across something she doesn't understand and I don't want her to get used to not having to pay attention. All of her teachers have said the letters and apologies aren't necessary, that she's a kid and sometimes kids daydream and don't pay attention. Well, it's important to ME that she does pay attention and is expected to pay attention, if only because I don't want it to be an issue when she's older and now thinks it's okay to drift into la-la land in class.



This is SO true. With the emphasis in NCLB and test scores and AYP, we are getting dangerously close to completely ignoring the 'hows'. Kids need to learn how to analyze, how to problem-solve...they need to learn how to learn. English and math are focused on so intently at the expense of the other subjects. I believe reading is the most important foundation of learning in the formative years, but once kids are past 2nd grade, there is no reason to toss other subjects aside. Geography is starting to become a thing of the past in schools and that is truly depressing, especially given the world in which we live today and how much we interact with the rest of the world.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

It is 110% the fault of parents, as I say in each and everyone of these debates. Nebraska- the easiest way to fix your problem is to get the parents out voting against your school board elected officials. That would end that program real quick, as soon as some jobs are lost.

When the "involved" parents are heavily outnumbered, and the parents have abdicated thier responsibility for raising thier children to the school district, the basic communication needed between parent and teacher soured. I have been in many countries with poverty a US citizen can't imagine, and when a child is able to get an education, it is great prestige for the parent as well, and there is very little, if any, conflict between parent and treacher just doesn't exist- they are partners in the children's education.


2. Why has it happened?

Parents abdicate thier responsibility until there is some difference in philosophy in that education, and then, and only then, do the parents get involved.

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

Societal changes are needed- any attempts to "reform" the educational system will fail miserably, just like all programs before, until the responsibility for the child is shifted back to the parent.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

I can only speculate, but I’d say parents in general are blaming teachers for their own shortcomings as parents. More and more, it seems, parents expect teachers to step in to the role that they can’t find time for, in addition to providing their darling with one-on-one attention, as if the other 50+ kids in the class don’t exist. Teachers are there to educate kids, not raise them.

2. Why has it happened?

Again, I can only speculate, but it is far more common now than it was 20 years ago that both parents work outside the home, and don’t spend the time with their kids they used to. There are more kids attending school whose families live below the poverty level. In addition, the teaching profession seems to have become the favorite whipping boy for all the ills in schools.

And, to make matters worse, fewer people are entering the teaching profession due to the crappy pay, out-of-control kids, and the opportunities available for better, higher-paying jobs. The lack of exceptional, qualified teachers, and the retirement of many older, more experienced teachers means that many schools “settle” for those who aren’t top quality. And to make matters worse, even the brick and mortar part of schools is crumbling – sometimes literally – buildings are old, up-to-date supplies are old or in short supply.





3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

Offer competitive pay with other like professions. These are the people who educate and form the next generation, and they are the Rodney Dangerfield of professions, especially at elementary and secondary levels. Parents can’t expect teachers to raise their children single-handedly – that’s the parents’ job. Parents need to realize their little darlings aren’t perfect, too. Positive reinforcement is great; but spoiling kids until they are unruly brats who don’t respect anyone but themselves does no one any favors. The relationship between parents and teachers should not be adversarial; both parties should be open-minded and willing to listen to reason. I think guilty consciences plays a big role in parents' belligerence against teachers. As with any relationship, give-and-take is an essential element. There will always be good teachers and bad teachers. If more good, qualified people aren't encouraged by better pay and conditions, we will continue to have more bad than good, and parent/teacher relationships will remain adversarial.

I do completely agree with the teacher pay thing DG. It should be a competitive field. I have always advocated that no senator or lawmaker can make no more money in salary than any teacher with similar seniority in his/her state. And can have no more benefits.

I have a feeling that teaching would become a competitive field, real quick -

I say this because I DO volunteer with our school, alot. I marvel at how these ladies and gentlemen do this for even the fairly good pay that they get in Anchorage. I testified before the school board, assembly and a couple other public comment sessions on the latest teacher contract, dealing with pay hikes for teachers. I just said "pay them, if they want 25% more, they deserve it as much as any CEO in this town deserves his golden parachute- they are worth every dime, can't say that about a CEO up here, now can you? "

Seroiusly- thier pay should be tied to lawmaker pay. That is the only way to get an equitable break for teachers. And attract the best and the brightest for our most important asset in this country- the next generation.

1.) Laziness. I've seen some people blame the parents, but I place blame on teachers who take extreme license with their 'reply all' button. My mother, who was on the school board for several years and became a mom-among-moms in the school district, tracked the number of replies she got from my first day of sixth grade to my last day of sophomore year, and found that teachers only returned her emails fifty percent of the time. She would send messages like "Will mentioned a class project, I'd just like to inquire if you need any assistance..." From personal observation, teachers send one-line and poorly-written responses when they do choose to respond. So I pin that squarely on apathetic or lazy teachers.

2.) The Information Age has jaded teachers. Fewer and fewer attend sporting events where they'd be likely to run-into parents. In my district especially, teachers make the conscious choice to live in another town from the one in which they teach in order to avoid parents at the supermarket or bookstore. These were cultural norms fifty years ago, and I don't really know why it has happened other than to say it has.

3.) Start paying teachers for job-performance and provide incentive to be a cut above the rest rather than provide the same meager wages for the excellent and the embarrassment.

Dude- I have to call your statement on "laziness" pure malarkey. You simply can't be a teacher and be lazy- it is go,go,go from the time the bell rings until you collapse after school for a minute and then start correcting 30-100 papers.

Time management demands less than a one sentance response, seriously. No way they have time to make big ol' long letters for one parent.

There is no real way to objectively demonstrate job performance of a teacher, with the exception of the very good or the very bad- in class sizes of 25 or more. The good teacher will gravitate toward the medicore job peformance review because of the demands placed in the variety of children's needs.

When I am in the class, of 30 or more kids, there are at least 7 kids, minimum, that act out and require more attention than the teacher can give, and she spends most of her time "putting out fires"- especially when they don't have a teachers aid or volunteer.

I usually just make copies for the teachers and sit at the back of the class and do what the teacher asks me to do- but the fact that I am a big male, and my very presence in the room causes less of a discipline problem for the teacher overall- not one detention while I have spent all day in a classroom. The teachers all remark on this- no matter if it is me or another Papa volunteer in the room. The Mom's frequently have the same effect, though not so marked, according to my school's teachers.

I do not get to volunteer as much as I would like, of course- but I make a big point of going to gym with my daughter and her classes- the gym teacher has 3 classes, and one helper- that is 90 kids!

It's their job. Something they choose to do. I had a Spanish teacher lose an entire semester's worth of homework due to his laziness, not mine and certainly not my parents'.

And forgive me, perhaps this is just because I'm currently in the system, but teachers have an entire planning period a day to coordinate affairs with parents, grade those papers, and offer a respite from go, go, go in addition to lunch, and built-in planning days, late-starts, summer vacations, Winter holidays, Spring vacation, etc. Teachers aren't nearly as victimized as that.

It is the duty of a teacher to answer throughly without overlooking a detail that could be crucial to the parent's inquiry. The educational system exists because of parents' paying taxes. So teachers work for parents. It's a basic concept. So teachers need to step it up and deal with parents no matter how annoying they sometimes are. I've met militant parents who act out more than their kids, but that's another debate.

Forgive me, but maybe instead of sending wordy emails, it would be more productive for the parent to talk to the teacher in person, at the many opportunities available (parent-teacher conferences, nights, etc.). If a teacher has several classes a day with 30 or more students in each, that's a lot of parents and a lot of email to wade through. Sure, there are some teachers who don't do a good job, but it's unproductive to paint them all with the same broad brush, especially on the basis of an inadequate (in the parent's opinion) email response.

And gosh, one whole period to do all that? They should wear blue tights and a cape to get all that done in 50 minutes.

Oh I certainly don't condemn them all. I've had some cool teachers who take the time to call my house. But the crux of the matter is, teachers are supposed to get there early, leave late, use their planning period to not socialize with the cute new history teacher, and get grading done on nights and weekends. That leaves plenty of time during the school day [at the very least] to communicate.

This is true indeed but the reverse is also true. Parents ought not be broadsided either.

Remember what I said about the blame game?

Cui bono, my friends?

The only people who gain from the parent/teachers wars are politicians.. and maybe a few lawyers.

Has there really been a fundamental change in the quality of parenting over the back couple decades?

I see no evidence of that.

The problem likely lies elsewhere.

Turnea- you can't see the fundamental change in parenting styles in oh, even one generation? I tell you what- my teacher said I was bad, then my parents believed the teacher- everytime. I had no chance at hoping to get "my side of the story"- it was a given that my side was irrelevent- the teachers viewpoint was everything.

Now you actually have parents believing the cock and bull stories that a 6-18 year old will tell over the several teachers telling them otherwise- I have seen it with my own two eyes too many times.

We had a parent recently assault a teacher over her daughter- and the daughter was a demonstrated "problem child" from word jump. She thought the teacher was being "unfair to her kid" and hit the teacher in the face- she got minimal jail time- I would have prefered 10-20 as an example to other parents.

I see out of control parents at sports games etc.

And on and on

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

Parents are hostile towards teachers because the school system as it is today is designed to dissolve the natural bond between parents and their children. Just think about all the surveys on attitudes. Many teachers no longer look to parents as partners because of bad experiences such as those already mentioned.

2. Why has it happened? Parents sense that schools take children away and no longer provide a quality academic education.


3. What can be done to repair the relationship? Return control of schools to local parent-school boards. Get the federal gov't our of education.

I taught public school for 6 years, when I was fresh out of college. I loved the children, but hated the system which destroyed creativity. When my oldest turned 5, I quit so that I could homeschool, because I didn't want my own children destroyed by the system.

Schools today are turning out a workforce, not teaching children to think. Read The Underground History of American Education by John Gatto for more info.

This is a complicated and interesting subject that does not have a quick, simple answer.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

I think the relationship has changed because society has changed. Society at home bleeds over into the classroom and society has changed its expectations of both parents and teachers and not always for the good.

First off, at home the nuclear family is eroding. More and more kids are growing up in single parent households where the parents are working. Fewer parents are parenting because the parent to child ratio is decreasing. This affects discipline, respect for authority, tutoring that the child gets at home and many other aspects of the child's development.

Society in general has not helped this situation. Society frowns upon tough discipline for kids, has removed corporal punishment as a tool, and generally wants to treat children as small adults. Society doesn't understand (apparantly) that children are not fully developed, are less likely to make good decisions, and (in general) not ready to make decisions for themselves. Children need the guidance of adults and since that guidance is increasingly not being given by parents (both because of time constraints and the admonishment of society) children are increasingly unruly and undisciplined.

When these kids come to school, the teachers are forced to deal with it. Children who are not grounded in discipline at home will be disruptive in the classroom. A few kids can ruin the learning opportunity for the many. Just as society has frowned upon parents disciplining their kids, it is more widespread in school. Schools can no longer crack down on the offenders as they once did and problem kids are integrated into the mainstream rather than seperating them from it.

Society has also turned away from personal responsibility. Parents are looking for someone else to blame their kids' bad behavior on. Teachers are saying that the behavior is outside of their control. Kids are asserting that the behavior is not bad, or if it is, it isn't their fault.

Parents, as part of society, have been influenced to look harshly on criticizing their children and at the same time, blame any bad behavior on others. Children that act out are just expressing themselves. Bad behavior is rationalized as an outcome of the situation the kid is and rather than stopping bad behavior, it is glossed over or (worse) rationalized as the fault of the disciplinarian or the victims of the behavior or the situation in general.

You see this in everyday society where we wonder if it is the environment the criminal was brought up in influenced their bad behavior. Killers are pschoanalyzed as victims rather than predators. Their behavior is rationalized as being caused by something outside of themselves.


2. Why has it happened?

I believe there has been a rebellion against authority going on for some time (the 1960s jumps out). Movies portray this fact nicely. Movies portray the authority figure as the villain in many cases. The bad boss, the evil government, the rogue army general are all archetype villains now. Rebelling against society's norms as been encouraged for so long that it has become the norm. Perhaps we will soon see a rebellion against being rebellious...

In a larger sense, the idea of moral relativism where no one set of standards of behavior are better than any others gives rise to the counter-intuitive viewpoint that all behavior is acceptable. It's just different. Who are we to judge?

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

I doubt much can be done until we restore the idea that you are responsible for your actions. Parents cannot pawn off their responsibility to raise their kids (in a family, ideally) and teachers cannot pawn off their responsibility to teach. Both sides must be allowed to discipline the kids.

NebraskaMom the attitude displayed in your response is part of the problem. It's all the fault of the schools.

I started this thread, with the intent of posting extensively, but to see what other people thought.

This is a two way street and must be seen as that before we can approach the third question, which deals with reconciliation.

So far, I've gotten more from the balanced posts of Turnea, kmsouthern, Amlord, and others than I have from yours.

This is pure speculation based upon my personal experience and/or those of my employees, but here goes....

I think that teachers, for the most part, are attempting to do a good job. This is probably more true with teachers than say, someone working at Sears (or wherever). Most teachers chose that profession in order to help, as obviously they'll never be financially wealthy. I think the issue predominantly isn't with the teachers, but rather with parents and a lack of accountability.

I think we've become a finger-pointing society. Why are people fat? McDonald's is at fault. Why is our economy bad? It must be the President/gov't,etc. We never consider that we put junk in our mouths and spend borrowed money with wanton abandonment. This has spilled over into the classroom.

There's a sales person that works for me that is a single mother. A nice lady, for the most part, who never seems to believe that her children do wrong. For what you or I might've been beaten 1/2 to death for 25 years ago, her kids are coddled into believing that the problems are caused by the school and/or teaching staff.

SOOOO... I THINK that creates a working environment where some teachers and administrators perpetually are covering their rear-ends, out of unadulterated fear (and probably legitimate fear). This, in my opinion, creates a vacuum of efficiency. On one hand, parents think they and their children are never responsible for failure (etc) and teachers are afraid (for good reason) to stick their necks out to help kids.

I remember football coaches, math teachers, etc who made an impact on who I am. Sometimes through a good "kick in the pants" (sometimes nearly literally). Teachers can't do that anymore. No one in a school can even really use harsh words. I find it entertaining that swearing and debauchery are rampant on TV but we can't allow a teacher (who probably knows your kid nearly as well as you) to make critical comments.

I'm not saying there aren't bad teachers, but probably most often there are truly bad parents. Just watch the news. There's always some poor kid who was wronged by society... but never a kid who just screwed up. I'm confident this is true in the classroom as well.

Why do people constantly refer to teacher salaries, as if it has anything to do with the price of tea in China?

I looked up what teachers make in the Cleveland public schools and was shocked to discover that I would be making more money as a teacher than I am as an engineer. Of course, they have a capped payscale at 15 or 20 years of experience. However, teachers in most bigget cities are NOT underpaid for the nine to ten months that they work.

You could make the same comment about a machinist or a welder or a car mechanic: obviously they'll never be financially wealthy. The fact is that you are very unlikely to get rich working for somebody else. W. Berry Fowler, founder of Sylvan Learning Centers, is both a millionaire AND a former school teacher.

I can say that one of the problems our district faces is the busing of students. Thankfully, the US Supreme Court last year decided that desegregating schools based solely on race is no longer legal. We have been busing "inner city" students to the "whiter areas" for a long time. This has made it difficult at best to get the teachers and the parents within a reasonable distance to be able to meet face to face. In our district, you may not be allowed to have your child go to the school that is only a few blocks away. Based on what color your skin is, they may tell you that you have to send your kid to another school across town because "we have too many white(insert any racial makeup) kids already here." Of course now our school is going to use both race and socioeconomic status, which skirts around the new law, but does nothing to create an image of neighborhood schools. In each neighborhood, two houses right next to each other can have kids the same age, but not attending the same school. If our district focused more on creating a neighborhood school that families could call their own, I think more parents would be more inclined to participate. Our district is very much a broken system. Today, I started working with one of our newest board members on a plan to turn this system around and address this issue as well as others such as the No Child Left Behind fiasco. Funny, I am this involved and my first child won't be born until June this year!

Fort Worth ISD has not bussed students to achieve racial balance for years. We do, however, still use buses for athletics, field trips and to provide federally mandated transportation for some severely disabled special education students. The next time you see the dreaded yellow school bus, don't have a fit of diarrhea over it. It's probably being used for something other than achieving racial balance.

I do, however, agree that NCLB is a fiasco, because it is a punitive measure that was never fully funded. NCLB became law under Bush's watch with Senator Kennedy's blessing. We had something similar when Bush was Governor of Texas and, as the late Molly Ivins said, "If it didn't work in Texas, try it on the nation."

The reason pay is constantly brought up is because MOST teachers ARE underpaid (if only by comparing what they COULD be making with their advanced degrees and training in another job) and do their jobs solely for love of the job. I will be teaching in public schools once my baby boy is of school-age, but for now I'm not part-time stuff in private schools. I LOVE working with children. In my area, you're lucky to make around $30K a year starting out and advanced degrees only allow for so much of a jump in the pay scale. My mother-in-law has been teaching for well over 20 years (several years were out-of-state and don't count toward retirement...she can retire in 2011), has a Master's degree (which she's had since she started teaching btw) and takes home less than $1000 a week. Not exactly rolling in the dough and she could be making MUCH more money doing something else with a Master's degree. And that doesn't take into consideration how much time teachers are working when they are not in the classroom with the students. My mother-in-law works at least 10 hours a day and spends her weekends doing lesson plans and grading papers. But we've been down this road with teacher pay before, Amlord. As with any other job, some people are bound to be better off financially than others. It's the luck of the draw with teaching, though.

And as much as I hate that teacher pay IS comparably low (and the 9-10 months of work thing is just not true in most parts of the country - teachers really only have 6 weeks of summer break at most before they have to go back to work...many white collar jobs offer at least as nice of a vacation package after 20 years on the job), I don't like the idea of people who are only in it for the money being responsible for my children's education. Merit pay is all fine and dandy, but how do you measure 'merit'? It's impossible to measure with any accuracy, IMO. I like knowing that teachers do their jobs because they love it and I don't mind sacrificing for a job that I love, but at the same time I wish teachers were paid what they are worth. It's a catch-22 in that regard (for me, anyway).

Teachers are also disgruntled about pay because administrators' salaries continue to go through the roof while teachers' salaries remain stagnant. It's frustrating watching the people who are not in the classroom and who make poor decisions about classroom/per-pupil spending continue to fatten their wallets.

Who is surprised BoF is the first to respond to my post being critical? Not I!

You certainly are quick to criticize, aren't you? I am glad that you think you know what is going on in my school district. It helps understand your posts. Of course we are going to have school buses. I don't deny that. They do serve a valuable purpose. I don't deny that. We do have a problem with our district busing students out of their neighborhood to balance the schools. This is a problem. You want to try to make me look like the bad guy here for the sake of doing so. The district I live in has a problem, and they are doing nothing to solve it. I don't give two farts about your district. You don't know anything about my district, yet you interject your nonsense as if you think you do. I have five emails today alone discussing this issue with a school board member. Why not talk about things you know, BoF before being critical?

Busing students to integrate diversity is done in our district. This is something that I think needs to be fixed.

I did not say what was happening in Iowa only Fort Worth, Texas. While Iowa may still be busing for racial balance, they most likely run buses for the purposes I have mentioned - athletics, field trips and mandated special education purposes.

I did agree with you on NCLB, but perhaps for different reasons.

With all due respect, scubatim, this is a debate board. You should expect people to disagree with you. As Harry Truman is reported to have put it, "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Those of us who have been here for yaers have a rather "thick skin" that allows us to take the heat. Very few of us get paranoid over what is written in response to our posts.

Why would you assume that the busses running in my district would not be mostly running kids from one neighborhood to another and disagree with me if you don't know the facts? I understand the intent of the debate board, but you interjected that the busses are probably running mostly for the purpose of extra-curricular activities. Though to an extent that is true, the fact still remains that our district is one of a handful left trying to interject diversity at each school by busing students across town. It isn't about thick skin, it is about debating an issue you know nothing about. Trust me when I say nothing you have ever said, or will ever say will offend me or hurt my feelings. I am simply pointing out that your assumptions are just that, which are not a basis for valid debate.

I am not assuming anything about your district other than that buses are used for other purposes. Can you call your school district and find out what percentage is used to achieve racial balance and what percentage is used for other purposes? You could then report back to us. The ball is in your court.

A very astute observation. Bussing ruined the public school systems in many cities. In an effort to rectify a perceived social injustice, they ruined a public institution.

I recall vividly being bussed for 45 minutes to an hour each day from the near West side of Cleveland to the far East side in the name of racial balance. It also seemed odd to be that in the name of one value we've sacrificed another.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

I'm 30 and that bond didn't exist when I was coming up in school... so I would have to wonder how far back do we have to go.

KmSouthern


I disagree. In fact I know three female teachers, my cousin and 2 female freinds. Funny each one has a masers degree. 1 can't stand teaching, but can't find a job to her liking paying any money, the other two loved teaching so much that they both moved out of teaching as soon as they could to be councilors.

As a parent I can see the apathy of teachers... and maybe this is the product of years of so many neglectful parents. But you can see their view when it comes to teaching is the same to my veiw of working on computers.... it's a job, it pays the bills...

At the end of the day you can't blame the teacher though... Boo-Boo rolls down hill and parents and their children are at the bottom.

Personally, I have to get on my daughter 3 -4 days a week dealing with her homework. I wrote the teacher and asked her about my daughter amount of homework. I got an answer like... "it should only be an hour"

Hour... right... easily 2 maybe 3 and my daughter is in the third grade. The kids are learning at such an accelerated rate from when I went to school. Spelling math grammer writing vocabulary social studies...

now I had a long day at work... in many household you got two working parents... so the kids don't get in from daycare until we get home... so around 6...

Now I got two hours or more of homework, IF, I want my daughter to learn... because in all honesty, she learns so very little in school... because i am reteaching every math lesson... And as a parent you are so tempted to just spuot out answers to your child just to speed up the process. Because do you think the teacher cares... nope, she is just passing out the grade. It gets so tiresome seeing the frustration and discouragement of your child as well.

But at the end of the day the teacher needs only pass out a grade and await the next class. And that is why the bond has truly went down hill.

What can be done to repair the relationship.

Well we need more teachers, so we can have smaller classes. More teaching has to be done in class, a relationship between student and teacher neeeds to be stronger so that regardless of parents attitudes a teacher does feel it is his/her DUTY to eliminate failure. A teacher has got to feel on a personal level that failure of a student means failure as a teacher. If a child is a student and you are a teacher, that is your JOB ensure they are learning.

And teachers just can't possibly do this with the class sizes in many schools today.

In this case, I think the teacher errs. People learn at different rates. What one person learns in an hour may take someone else longer.

Students also learn through different modalities. Some learn better through visual - reading, graphics, etc. Others learn best through the auditory mode. Some learn by doing hands-on tasks. It seems that this particular teacher is lacking in willingness or ability to adapt to learning speed, modes and styles.

You know what though, I was a special education teacher and we had to consider those things. It's too bad regular education hasn't caught up, but in their defense, they have to contend with those damned standardized tests. That leaves precious time for much else. We used to call that something else, "enrichment."



I thought your first post on this thread was well thought out. The problem with this one is that it reduces the problems of education to a single factor analysis.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

I don't think that bond was all that great when I was in school. I don't think it is in a horrible place now.

I think that education has some serious problems in the country, but as a society we don't value the right things any more. If the grade is more important than the education then the teacher is an obstacle on the way to getting an A.

Americans are working more and more to try to stay in the same place. The modern middle class family is stretched to the limit trying to keep up with working two jobs and getting children in the right place. Supervising homework is hard, actively participating in your child's education in this situation is very difficult.

I think we tend to see grades and degrees and things to get done. We praise the values of education but I think not too many of us value the gaining of knowledge. We look at GPAs, test scores, degrees, certifications.

2. Why has it happened?


If it is happening I think it is scapegoating that isn't entirely fair for teachers or parents. There clearly are bad teachers and there clearly are parents that don't help with their children's education.

But if things go badly the finger-pointing starts.
3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

As with many things in our society, if we could stop looking at things from the point of view of the advocate (of the child or teacher, or coach, or parent, or administrator) and get ourselves to look at things for the collective good. Then we won't pull into our collective trenches with people wearing the same hats and fend of criticism headed in our direction by slinging it at trenches full of people all wearing another hat.

We all need to look at the whole as best as we can and try to find ways to make it synch together better. Today we have such a society of advocacy that we same to be able to spout talking points but not really see the whole picture. Sometimes seeing things from multiple perspectives actually promotes your self-interest. An improved system above provides a better shelter below.

Ughh I'm getting confusing and philosophical (*more than usual at least)

Oh I don't doubt that at all! Not all teachers love their jobs and many of them start out loving it but are quickly turned off by it for a host of reasons ranging from stress, lack of support from parents/administration, not being able to actually TEACH, etc. And in some areas, I don't doubt that teachers are doing well. Pay sucks here and everywhere else I've lived. DOD schools, particularly those overseas, have always been known for their high quality teachers and relatively high pay. But I'm planning to work in a low-income area school with high turnover since that's where I think I'd be needed most. Teaching is often a thankless job and that alone is enough to sour so many who'd otherwise have enjoyed it and/or been great at it. That is all related to the poor relationship between parents and teachers today.



I have heard from many people that homework has increased dramatically over the past decade or so. My personal experiences aren't much help there because I had 2-3 hours of homework a night from grade 3 on, the bulk of which was from gifted/accelerated courses. But it seems there is so much homework now because there just aren't enough hours in a day to prepare a class for standardized testing (which of course has different implications than it did pre-NCLB) while still including important things like geography, science, etc. I totally agree that not enough is being taught in the classroom. I went to great public schools (not exactly a thing easy to come by in AZ) so again, my expereriences are different from most in the sheer amount of material we were expected to - and did - learn. But by in large, kids come home with hours upon hours of homework less as reinforcing what was taught during the day (as it is supposed to be) and more as home lessons and that should not be happening. I can blame a lot of that on NCLB and what it's done to a typical day in the life of a teacher, but also I have to blame discipline issues in the classroom. I can't tell you how much better a classroom is able to operate when you just add one extra responsible adult in the form of a teacher's aide. Larger classrooms are far less of an issue if you've got a teacher's aide. I was a special ed teacher's aide last year (and you so don't want to know the measly hourly rate I was paid with a B.S. - let's just say it was a tiny step up from minimum wage) and it would probably be much more cost-effective for a district to shell out extra money for aides than more teachers and it would have much the same effect. The presence of another adult (and volunteers don't work since they are not allowed to be disciplinarians) makes Johnny think twice about throwing that paper airplane across the room. Sure there might be more kids, but until we start getting into the older grade levels, each kid just sees one extra pair of adult eyes watching his every move (not that the adult is watching everyone else in the process). My daughter's previous school (which was FANTASTIC) had a team-taught class for 1st grade. I was the first in line to get her on the list for that class, for many reasons. She's extremely bright and her individual needs are much more likely to be met in a classroom with two teachers - even if there are twice as many students as a regular classrom (which there were). Teachers who work as a team can utilize the strengths of each teacher (her class had one teacher whose specialty was writing/reading and another whose specialty was math/science) while working together to minimize weaknesses and individual flaws. It also offers another person with whom to formulate lesson plans (which is a HUGE benefit in and of itself). Team-teaching is another extremely valuable tool that should be used much more often. When two teachers collaborate, it's amazing how much material can be covered (and how little time needs to be spent on correcting improper behavior).


It's truly sad that many parents feel this way and they have every right to. Children deserve to be educated by people who enjoy working with kids. I suppose I misspoke earlier when I said that most teach because they love it. Many do, but probably not most. When I worked in childcare teaching pre-K, the majority of folks there thought of it simply as a job that sorta paid the bills. It frustrated me because it seems like such a crazy job to get if you don't LIKE working with kids because there are so many less stressful, better paying jobs than working in a daycare. The teachers I've known, for the most part, have truly loved their jobs and it shows in their classrooms.

I certainly have never felt as if it's just a matter of passing out a grade and awaiting the next class. I choose to teach the little ones because it sets the standard for the rest of a child's academic career and I want to be responsible for preparing children to be successful, thoughtful, and well-rounded. I know I'm good at my job. I want to do everything I can to be the teacher people remember when they are adults and reflecting on those who've impacted their lives in a positive way. THAT is why I teach. I know that not every teacher (probably not even most) share my conviction and passion.

There are so many things wrong with the system that make it really difficult for teachers to do the best job they can as educators. That does not excuse poor performance, however it would certainly improve were things like NCLB examined and fixed, class sizes decreased, increasing the number of aides and/or making larger classes with two teachers, among other things.

But hey...this is all coming from someone who'd always planned to homeschool to avoid all of the above problems altogether (which I know is impossible for most people in today's society) - I know what I'm capable of and I'd much rather be responsible for my children's education as a result

*edited for clarity and to add more about team-teaching

I have not denied busses are used for other puposes. You did have a good idea, though. I think looking at the dollar cost would put a completely different perspective on the issue. I sent an email off asking that exact question. I don't know if the information is actually tracked, but if so, I will get back to you.

Niether a machinist or car mechanic need a four year degree. Both can easily, and do, make alot more money than teachers in my town- and our teachers are pretty far up there in pay.

And that is yearly salary- which, BTW- teachers don't get paid for thier "time off"- they can take a 'salary" type paycheck- take thier regular paycheck and spread it over the full year. Some don't.

they don't get paid overtime, when staying up late to grade papers, or coming in early to set up classrooms.

Most of all- they sure as hell don't get paid for putting up with a lot of crap from absentee parents that have some kind of entitlement issues because they pay taxes that they can abuse a teacher and take up thier valuable time, even though they don't get paid for that time- despite the fact that there are 25+ other whiny entitled parents demanding the same time.

Even if she spends one minute per parent per day- in my daughters class- there goes her one damn 30 minute break in the day.

Ya, I would go get a four year degree for that one.

Well, maybe a business degree so I can offer some basic remedial or honor school curricula to parents that can't find the time to do thier job of helping thier own kids- for a fat fee.

Gotta get me one of them teachin' gigs, give up engineering and project management program right now and get me some of dat school teacher larnin' right away.

Seriously- got to be a pretty sucky engineer here to make less than a school teacher.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

Aside from the occasional anecdotal flame, I am not so sure there is any overt lack of trust between parents or teachers, on any meaningful statistical basis that is. If I were to guess, I would have to agree with some earlier statements that parents increasingly don't have as much time, but lack of time is not equivalent to lack of trust.

If you look at the statistics from the Federal Reserve and Bureau of Economic Analysis, the cash crunch is confirmed as people used to save 20% of their income a few decades ago and currently spend 120% of their income. That certainly suggests that the average household is increasingly being squeezed both for cash and time.

2. Why has it happened?

Any growing social impatience with teachers' expectations of parental involvement can easily be mistaken as mistrust when the problem is simply that parents have not budgeted their time wisely. Some things in life, like pregnancy and a child's education, simply take a certain amount of time to bring to a fruitful stage, and those time requirements have not changed much in thousands of years. What has changed are the cultural expectations of the parents. Parents, I think, have gradually deluded themselves over the decades that their chosen lifestyle was getting better when it was in fact, getting worse. It is an economic problem that has created a cultural problem.

There may also be fringe areas of true mistrust though, such as with issues of curriculum which evangelicals are often found disputing and repudiating. For the most part though, there is a lengthy history of research that shows direct and deliberate parental involvement (or even that of older siblings) with a child's education greatly accelerates a child's achievement and overall performance. Education just left to teachers and schools alone will rarely be as good. Adequate, maybe. But for the best results, a certain amount of parental involvement is essential and unavoidable, regardless of economic pressures.

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

If the problem really does arise from a economic pressures forcing parents to rebudget time improperly, at least with regard to their child's education, then the economic issues have to be addressed, especially in the ways in which they rob people of time.

Cost of Housing: given the cost of housing affects everyone and represents everyone's largest consumer expense, gutting the cost basis of housing will reduce the cost burden in all sectors of society, including healthcare. I am not saying that is possible, but if 50 years ago an individual earner needed only spend 2-3 times the his local median individual income to afford a home, and if today it takes 3-4 times the median household income of 2.5 earners to do the same, then there has been a massive rise in the number of man/woman-hours required to provide for housing over the years. This analysis is inflation independent because I am comparing temporal costs, median income to the median cost of homes. If part of this rise is because people are buying more home than they would have historically afforded, then that could also be a way in which they are poorly balancing their effort, and hence time.

Commute time: as urban areas have sprawled, more time is wasted commuting. As fuel costs continue to rise, it becomes an economic issue as well. The US used to provide for 100% of its oil needs and was an oil exporter. Since the US reached its peak oil production in the 70's (and now national prodution is declining), the US now only provides for 25% of its oil needs and must import the rest. Fuel prices will only continue to rise, as the world now approaches its own peak oil production plateau. All the alternatives are still pricey compared to fossil fuels. Therefore, impractical as it may sound now, cities may one day need to be "renewed" to have smaller reaches, and create more local employment. Self-contained urban areas will likely be smaller in the future, and there would be more of them to accomodate the existing population.

This is not a new idea. The Romans were under even stricter "commute" limits due to the state of transportation tech of the first century AD, and although we won't have quite the same restrictions, we have probably reached the limit of urban sprawl in many of the larger cities. The Romans were well aware most cities could only be built to a certain size for reasons of practicality in transportation, and did so consciously on the planning level. Reducing commuting to reduce fuel consumption will both save money as well as free up more time for people. It's either that or pack everyone on mass transit.

Awareness: Make parents aware of the importance of time-consuming "quality-time" with their kids in which they role-model the love of learning. Properly inform parents that education starts in the home, not at school.

I think it depends on the school system. I my schools the bond is still there and generally kids respect teachers and visa versa – in our inner cities and some suburban communities the opposite is true.


The system was broken when teachers were forced to keep violent and unruly kids in the classes. The standards for academics and behavior followed a steady slide from the late 60s based on these policies – for students and teachers.



Give teachers the power and responsibility to deal with students. If the kids parents thnk the teacher is someone who can be easily overruled when Jonny is a bad boy then the relationship no longer exists.

Teachers need to demand more from students and parents and the school needs to stand behind the demands.

This is a half-truth, Ted.

While teachers can demand more of students, I don't think they have much say-so regarding parents.

You might want to explain this one.

1. What has broken the bond of trust that once existed between parents and teachers?

2. Why has it happened?

3. What can be done to repair the relationship?

I see this as a symptom of a much greater social movement, the conglomerating of environments and the mobility of the population. Bussing in my neck of the northern woods was used to bring in kids from the rural communities where the schools were shutting down due to economics, i.e., lack of cash. Then after graduation there was a scattering to the winds of those 500 or so grads due to a lack of jobs in the area and also a paucity of real career choices.

There was plenty of trust while I went through the third grade in a neighborhood school in a class size of about a dozen. That school shut down, and off I went to a bigger one that had class sizes of around 20 to 30. That held through to graduation. Then there was college and the big auditorium-style classrooms full of a couple hundred.

Onward to work where companies were selling out left and right. Few still exist today, having been sucked into much larger organizations. You want to get rich? Start a company and sell it. Seems to be a common tactic, so the challenge is to come up with a good idea or one that threatens Microsoft.

Overall though, people don't get a chance to form life-long relationships. I can think of arguments pro and con on this, but it seems to me that the real problem with our school systems is also the real problem with our society.

In a nutshell it's lack of permanence. I don't think that's easy for people to take, especially kids. Sure permanence can get boring. I was bored in my little home town of 10,000 and I can see the kids around this place being bored. It's about the same size. Yet boredom has cures but living in a constant state of insecurity has fewer. People have been living one job away from disaster for decades, maybe half a century, while the population grows and the value of a buck erodes.

The thing is that we can't turn back the clock. The thing is that there's no panacea for all this. Some think that the charter school is the answer, that if you just privatize education it will all fall into place. That's not necessarily so. Others think that if you just have open schools, the problems will dissipate. Nope, that's not the answer either.

I don't know if there is an answer. We might want to reduce this situation down to basics:

How is trust earned?

How is trust maintained?

What destroys trust?

I do know this much -- people accustomed to constant change tend to build trust relationships faster than those who are not. That's a bright spot to look toward. Apparently the building and maintaining of trust is a learned skill.

I also know this -- once trust is lost, it's nearly impossible to regain.

Regarding teachers and parents, either side can blow it. Then one might head into stereotyping, as in all parents suck or all teachers blow. Or, and this is probably more common, one gets into a hatred of all people everywhere. None of them are trustworthy, and one might be unsure of oneself as well.

Yep. Basing this opinion on literature throughout the ages, that's nothing new. And when I think about how unstable most lives have been throughout the millennia, our modern problems might be nothing new too. The world is just a tough place in which to live. Stuff happens, so be prepared.

I'm also wondering if these perceptions are typical of living so many decades on the planet. I'm wondering if there ever was so much more trust between parents and teachers, or if that was an illusion of childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. In simple terms, an illusion of ignorance. The older you get, the more you experience and since the world is a tough place, the more cynical you become. Then there's the good-old-days illusion.

Another one might be the respect for authority. That has certainly taken a beating over the past fifty years, partly because authority has been abused so much, partly because . . . well, simply because authority has been abused so much. That goes back to losing trust, doesn't it.

Ah well, life is a carnaval. Watch out for the carnies.

I should mention that blaming desegregation busing for this is... well its hard to put into words just how ridiculous that is.

Busing in and of itself never really caused any serious problems and in fact in some areas was a resounding success.

The only real problem with busing was that it served as a conduit for the frustration of a nation that had not yet come to terms with racial equality. The controversy over busing was always a symptom, never a cause.

On a historical note, I see where some people are coming from. There was also some reverse-busing where my father went from a rich white neighborhood to... not a rich white neighborhood. So, my grandparents weren't too sweet on cooperating with the officials from my dad's new school, though they were far from racist. They simply found it more of a problem communicating from across a city during a time without email and the ability to up and run to a parent-teacher conference.

In any event, it's becoming more and more of a cop out to use depersonalizing techniques to communicate, therefore your child who may just be a face in a crowd is guarded by a person who, to a teacher, is just a name on a computer screen. May as well be a monkey in a dress for all some teachers care. I really, really believe people have to make people care, this goes for both sides of the coin in this debate.

Perhaps... but there's still phones, mail, and the family car.

It's at best a minor inconvenience.

It hardly the reason why white families fled integrated schools en masse. Heck Boston had riots over busing. I bet it wasn't because of the PTA meeting commute.

Well, my father had to be taken out of his North Carolina town and bused into a separate community altogether because they were having to equalize the ratio, so it was a pretty huge inconvenience and he couldn't do sports his junior and senior years of high school because his parents both worked and most of his friends couldn't drive, so historically, it was a pretty sticky situation.

And you're probably right. I th