Full Version: Hispanics and Obama
I keep reading what are to me surprising pieces about non-black minorities and their supposed issues with voting for Barack Obama because of his race. Lines such as "There’s always been tension in the black and Latino communities." and "Lets face it, Hispanics will vote for a woman president before voting for someone who is African-American." keep showing up in articles. You even hear about the Asian racism.
I find this storyline hard to believe, but the percentages have shown some difficulty on Obama's part winning these minority groups over. Couldn't this possibly have to do with issues though? Obama voted against CAFTA which I can't imagine goes over too well with Hispanics. He also co-sponsored a bill to cap the number of legal immigrants allowed into the country at 200,000 - a 66% reduction. Couldn't Hispanics simply like Hillary or a republican candidate (in open primaries) better?
Questions for Debate:
Is race a driving factor in Hispanics voting for people other than Barack Obama or is it primarily driven by differences on the issues?
Should non-black minorities be offended at the pieces being written by major news sources that suggest racism?
I find this storyline hard to believe, but the percentages have shown some difficulty on Obama's part winning these minority groups over. Couldn't this possibly have to do with issues though? Obama voted against CAFTA which I can't imagine goes over too well with Hispanics. He also co-sponsored a bill to cap the number of legal immigrants allowed into the country at 200,000 - a 66% reduction. Couldn't Hispanics simply like Hillary or a republican candidate (in open primaries) better?
Questions for Debate:
Is race a driving factor in Hispanics voting for people other than Barack Obama or is it primarily driven by differences on the issues?
Should non-black minorities be offended at the pieces being written by major news sources that suggest racism?
Is race a driving factor in Hispanics voting for people other than Barack Obama or is it primarily driven by differences on the issues?
Sadly, many times it IS a factor and I really can't decide why, other than possibly competition or bragging rights for who's been treated the most unfairly by the white majority in our history. I can't speak with any authority on anything other then Mexicans and Mexican-Americans, but by in large, there are deep-rooted prejudices against Blacks (and vice versa). A bit of anecdotal evidence...my husband's best friend (Black) has a Mexican-American wife. Best friend is seriously THE most kind and friendly person I've ever known. His father-in-law has threatened him with bodily harm in the past simply because he's Black and his daughter should not marry beneath her and he's not ashamed to admit it. My step-father is Mexican-American. His father does Affirmative Action work and is quite open-minded, however his mother makes off-color remarks about Blacks all the time. Sometimes it's just comments in passing about looks, but other times it's "Colored people" are so lazy, etc. Anyway, there is DEFINITELY something to the idea of prejudice coming in to play within the Latino community (again, all I know is Mexican/Mexican-American). I think it's ridiculous - they should be trying to help each other out as fellow minorities.
Should non-black minorities be offended at the pieces being written by major news sources that suggest racism?
If they are offended, they should be speaking up and speaking out about stupid, baseless prejudices on both sides (Blacks aso have a lot to say about Mexicans...in my experience it's mostly retaliatory, but that's no excuse). If prominent folks in both sides don't speak out against Latino vs. Black prejudices, it's not going to stop - taking offense is fine, but do something about it!
km, I agree that many times it is a factor. I'm sure that many people are either more or less likely to vote for Obama because of his race. And I can see how in older Americans, race is a bigger factor for them as your personal examples show. I'm just not buying that it is a primary factor in more than 10% of Hispanics voting decisions. There are other reasons for the trend as I've mentioned and I think that a lot of these mainstream sources are just trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Am I completely off the farm here?
I think it depends on which Hispanics you're speaking about. The Cubans in Florida didn't take too well to the return of Elian Gonzalez to Cuba, during Clinton's term. I think it actually cost Gore the vote in Florida (which cost him the election). Do they now support Hillary over Obama? I doubt it.
I have noticed some outspoken racism among Cubans (which is really odd considering about 40 percent are either mulatto or black), but the latino culture is much more sexist than racist. Those men won't (generally) vote for a woman over a man. Of course, just speaking anecdotally here.
I have noticed some outspoken racism among Cubans (which is really odd considering about 40 percent are either mulatto or black), but the latino culture is much more sexist than racist. Those men won't (generally) vote for a woman over a man. Of course, just speaking anecdotally here.
Hmmm, good, but very tough question. So I asked most of my chicano friends and chicana wife. She said "you bet it is racism, for the most part, brown people are more racist than whites against blacks"- I will take her word for it- I don't even pretend to know.
Seems as though Mrs P should be right- I see alot more sexism in American/Latino culture than I see racism. But once again- how would I quantify anything but a guess here?
Alaska has the least illegal immigrants in the nation, with Hispanics being the largest minority. So immigration doesn't seem to be the issue here. I have yet to talk to a hispanic that doesn't outright despise McCain, and they sure seem to support Hillary.
That being said- the Ron Paul for president meetings at the U are nearly 50% hispanic.
BTW- My wife HATES being called Hispanic or Latino- it is "Chicana" or nothing.
It is interesting to have another viewpoint on race in the house.
Seems as though Mrs P should be right- I see alot more sexism in American/Latino culture than I see racism. But once again- how would I quantify anything but a guess here?
Alaska has the least illegal immigrants in the nation, with Hispanics being the largest minority. So immigration doesn't seem to be the issue here. I have yet to talk to a hispanic that doesn't outright despise McCain, and they sure seem to support Hillary.
That being said- the Ron Paul for president meetings at the U are nearly 50% hispanic.
BTW- My wife HATES being called Hispanic or Latino- it is "Chicana" or nothing.
It is interesting to have another viewpoint on race in the house.
2006 estimates from the US Census:
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Black % of population: 12.37
Hispanic % of population: 14.78
Asian/Pacific Islander %: 4.52
Remember, Hispanics have a fertility rate at least two times that of all other ethnic groups, so many of the Hispanic count are in fact younger voters. It is estimated that, "Nearly 67 million people of Hispanic origin (who may be of any race) would be added to the nation’s population between 2000 and 2050. ...an increase of 188 percent. Their share of the nation’s population would nearly double, from 12.6 percent to 24.4 percent." In other words, they are the fastest growing, and by in large, a youthful segment of the population. Note, that in just 6 years, the Hispanic percentage of the population rose from 12.6% to 14.8%. The black proportion of the population has not changed that much in over 100 years.
Although the stats are interesting, there is also a strange habit many have of talking about "Hispanic" as if it were one nationality. There are dozens of countries involved, many mulatto that are in fact part African-American, so "Hispanic" origin does not really say much about a specific political identity much less ethnic identity. There are similarities for sure, many are Catholic, most have a language heritage from Spanish, Portugese, or some native Indian tongue, but I would be hesitant to lump them all together as they come from dozens of countries.
Also , many Hispanics have been here 3 generations or more since the time when Mexico owned California and much of the southwest, but those native Hispanics are also well integrated into American culture and have a lower fertility rate than the recent immigrants. Very often those native Hispanics may not even speak Spanish themselves since their families have been here so long. I have even heard of them vocally resenting the more recent arrivals, possibly setting up a political divide between them.
Recent immigrants and naturalized citizens have quite different concerns than the settled native Hispanics. Remember, they are the ones with the high birth rates, and younger overall population age. Many know of someone struggling with an immigration concern, and that may be a predominant issue with them. Also, with recent immigrants, many likely relate to the same issues that any poorer group would have politically. I would be reluctant to generalize and say race has no bearing on the vote, but the stereotyped high school rivalries of black vs. latino gangs are a bit overblown, imo, and probably won't matter as much as economic and immigration issues in the general Hispanic population.
Given that the two evangelical candidates in the GOP race have dropped out (or are otherwise insignificant), that one possible connection with conservative religious values really is not a factor at all, especially as the religious Hispanics are largely Catholic anyway. The native American Hispanics may go more conservative perhaps, but I would expect the vast majority of Hispanics to be more at home with the Labor-loving rhetoric of the Democratic party than with anything the GOP has to say.
------------------------------------------
Black % of population: 12.37
Hispanic % of population: 14.78
Asian/Pacific Islander %: 4.52
Remember, Hispanics have a fertility rate at least two times that of all other ethnic groups, so many of the Hispanic count are in fact younger voters. It is estimated that, "Nearly 67 million people of Hispanic origin (who may be of any race) would be added to the nation’s population between 2000 and 2050. ...an increase of 188 percent. Their share of the nation’s population would nearly double, from 12.6 percent to 24.4 percent." In other words, they are the fastest growing, and by in large, a youthful segment of the population. Note, that in just 6 years, the Hispanic percentage of the population rose from 12.6% to 14.8%. The black proportion of the population has not changed that much in over 100 years.
Although the stats are interesting, there is also a strange habit many have of talking about "Hispanic" as if it were one nationality. There are dozens of countries involved, many mulatto that are in fact part African-American, so "Hispanic" origin does not really say much about a specific political identity much less ethnic identity. There are similarities for sure, many are Catholic, most have a language heritage from Spanish, Portugese, or some native Indian tongue, but I would be hesitant to lump them all together as they come from dozens of countries.
Also , many Hispanics have been here 3 generations or more since the time when Mexico owned California and much of the southwest, but those native Hispanics are also well integrated into American culture and have a lower fertility rate than the recent immigrants. Very often those native Hispanics may not even speak Spanish themselves since their families have been here so long. I have even heard of them vocally resenting the more recent arrivals, possibly setting up a political divide between them.
Recent immigrants and naturalized citizens have quite different concerns than the settled native Hispanics. Remember, they are the ones with the high birth rates, and younger overall population age. Many know of someone struggling with an immigration concern, and that may be a predominant issue with them. Also, with recent immigrants, many likely relate to the same issues that any poorer group would have politically. I would be reluctant to generalize and say race has no bearing on the vote, but the stereotyped high school rivalries of black vs. latino gangs are a bit overblown, imo, and probably won't matter as much as economic and immigration issues in the general Hispanic population.
Given that the two evangelical candidates in the GOP race have dropped out (or are otherwise insignificant), that one possible connection with conservative religious values really is not a factor at all, especially as the religious Hispanics are largely Catholic anyway. The native American Hispanics may go more conservative perhaps, but I would expect the vast majority of Hispanics to be more at home with the Labor-loving rhetoric of the Democratic party than with anything the GOP has to say.
Hmm, now what would my kids be, if my wife is Chicana and I am white- what would my kids be counted as?
And yes, my wife is very forceful in her insistance that she is "not hispanic nor is she latin"- and resents the "all in one group" thing that media and all that lump her into.
She is not spanish. She is not from latin America- she was born in America, and only one side of her family was "illegal"- her grandparents on her dad's side.
She is bi-lingual, liberal to the point of socialist (makes for interesting conversation when talking to a capitalist libertarian
) who has read lots of Noam Chomsky and not enough Milton Friedman (for balance mind you- I always thought Milton Friedman should be president, and Chomsky vice president )
But the point is- she resents the buttonhole the media is making her fit, and I think that goes for alot of the "hispanic" community, no matter thier political affiliation.
I think even more importantly- is that "hispanic" ethnic group is completely assimilated and you can not seperate hispanic culture from American culture.
Like I said on immigration threads- I fear no illegal immigration- what I fear is unrestricted exploitation of illegal immigrants, and the circumvention of labor laws by big business by exploiting illegal immigrants.
Hispanic immigrants are so integrated into American culture, and integrate so quickly by the second generation, that it is impossible to tell where the American cultire ends and hispanic culture begins.
My kids will be half northern european, half chicana, with a half brother and sister that are completely white as the driven snow.
So I ask- I will have a large family- is my "population" counted as white, or hispanic?
And yes, my wife is very forceful in her insistance that she is "not hispanic nor is she latin"- and resents the "all in one group" thing that media and all that lump her into.
She is not spanish. She is not from latin America- she was born in America, and only one side of her family was "illegal"- her grandparents on her dad's side.
She is bi-lingual, liberal to the point of socialist (makes for interesting conversation when talking to a capitalist libertarian
) who has read lots of Noam Chomsky and not enough Milton Friedman (for balance mind you- I always thought Milton Friedman should be president, and Chomsky vice president ) But the point is- she resents the buttonhole the media is making her fit, and I think that goes for alot of the "hispanic" community, no matter thier political affiliation.
I think even more importantly- is that "hispanic" ethnic group is completely assimilated and you can not seperate hispanic culture from American culture.
Like I said on immigration threads- I fear no illegal immigration- what I fear is unrestricted exploitation of illegal immigrants, and the circumvention of labor laws by big business by exploiting illegal immigrants.
Hispanic immigrants are so integrated into American culture, and integrate so quickly by the second generation, that it is impossible to tell where the American cultire ends and hispanic culture begins.
My kids will be half northern european, half chicana, with a half brother and sister that are completely white as the driven snow.
So I ask- I will have a large family- is my "population" counted as white, or hispanic?
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Feb 23 2008, 06:35 PM) 
Hmm, now what would my kids be, if my wife is Chicana and I am white- what would my kids be counted as?
Despite your intentions, lets hope that we never find out CR.
Since we're all talking anectodally, the only Hispanics that I know well are from work. I work with about 30 Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, half more days than not. Aside from the occasional Gringo comment (from the Mexicans), I never hear a word on race. Maybe it's the setting, but I don't think that it is the case because I hear the sexist comments alluded to earlier quite often.
Could reverse racism play a part?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1689619,00.html
As the above article points out, Obama gets a lot of support from African-Americans simply because of his race, and those of his race who support any other candidate get treated as traitors. Whites support him because of the "bargaining" effect he creates as described on page 2 of the article.
Hispanics, in not supporting him, may simply be showing the lack of bias evident in the other 2 groups.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1689619,00.html
As the above article points out, Obama gets a lot of support from African-Americans simply because of his race, and those of his race who support any other candidate get treated as traitors. Whites support him because of the "bargaining" effect he creates as described on page 2 of the article.
Hispanics, in not supporting him, may simply be showing the lack of bias evident in the other 2 groups.
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