kmsouthern:


droop24:


This video has the audio. While the bus driver's voice was appropriate, the line of questioning was not.

"Sammy, I need you to explain to these people why you are on the bus"[size="3"][/size]

Reeeeallllly!. That is nothing more than inviting a kid to fight you verbally. Once again, keep driving(as she was doing at the beginning of the clip) and let the proper administrators deal with it. A kid doesn't need grilled like that. Since folks believe that bus drivers shouldn't be workign with kids to this degree, the smart option would've been to keep driving. Is not standing up, she isn't waving her hands wildly in the air, nor does she pose a threat to the others. Was she loud? From the video, it sounded like a typical school bus. Sorry folks, the bus driver's line of questioning shows she made a bad situation horrible.

Let's be clear. At the beginning of the video the exchange is this:

"Alright. Sammy? I need you to explain some thing to these guys: Why are you on this bus? Why are you on this bus?"

"Because I like going to my school... ...the way I... transport to..."

"It's probably the only way you can get to and from school?"

"No, no, no, no."

"Why don't you find another way then, if this is not the only way, apparently you don't appreciate it and look at all these people that you're putting out."

"Okay, Seriously?"

"Seriously. Why are you here now, come on."

"Seriously, I'm getting off the bus now, lady."

I've heard exchanges like this between students and other people in authority before. The bus driver is trying to deal with a disruptive student. I don't know the nature of the disturbance, but I doubt the bus driver stopped the bus on a whim.

The essence of the driver's statements at this point is this: If you don't appreciate the service provided to you and you can find another way to and from school, you should use it. It is also a common tactic by a person in authority to use the fact that the disruptive child is holding everyone else up with their disruptive behavior to get the disruptive behavior to stop. There is nothing abnormal about the exchange to that point. This child escalated the situation by standing up and trying to get off the bus. But, let's be clear, the bus driver did nothing extreme in stopping the bus and dealing with a disruptive student in the manner that she did at the outset.

I see nothing wrong with the line of questioning, either. I cannot agree that the bus driver could have known that the teen would behave the way she did, stand up and demand to get off of the bus...particularly when she knew she was being videotaped. Furthermore, the line of reasoning that the driver stopped for no real reason other than to simply antagonize this girl is just strange to me. The driver had two more loads of passengers to transport after that run....middle and elementary school. She had less incentive to stop and waste her time than anyone on that bus.

For what it's worth, "Sammy" was creating a disturbance

And the law contends that she has absolutely no right to remove herself, AND charges the bus driver with the responsibility of overseeing that fact.

From the U.S. Department of Labor's website:

I don't see anything that says she can't let a student of the bus. I see something about only letting students on the bus, but thats a different thing.


But whats the school policy? We don't really know. Common sense would suggest a student at the age of 15 should be allowed to get of when the bus is stopped, especially since from the quote you posted, the driver is only responsible for what happens on the bus. I guess there is something I just don't understand here - are these 15 year olds under special supervision or something, since they are not allowed to make the decision to get of a bus when its stopped - or is the driver ALWAYS tasked with ensuring each and every student only gets off at a predesignated stop on the route home from school, where a parent is readily available to greet them? If thats the case, I wonder why the driver didn't tell the girl. This is the main reason I blame the driver most - I cannot fathom why she didn't want to let the girl of the bus.


Keyword here is boards... so I would also logically conclude, that the responsibility of the school stops, when the girl gets off then bus on the way home from school, no?


I'm guessing, and I may be very wrong, that students often get off at other stops, for example if they have to visit friends, meet their parents somewhere, go to work or a million other things. If thats the case, whats the harm here in letting the girl off? There should be no lawsuits, and anybody in this case that files one is a moron in my opinion, but then again, its the American get rich quick scheme, so no wonder so many do it.


And thats comparable how exactly?


To me the belittling tone she used, when asking the girl why she was on the bus, is an implicit way of saying get off, even if the words were not uttered directly.
I have had many teachers calling student out in the same way in front of other kids, often for no apparent reason, and its a great way of provoking a reaction. The driver of a bus, or a teacher for that matter, should know better, but this one didn't. I am sure belittling disruptive students in front of other kids is a way of teaching loved by many, I just don't think you can naturally assume the kid will behave responsibly, if that was the case, they wouldn't be called kids.


The students is rather walking towards to the exit, and expecting the driver to let her pass, which she then doesn't. The driver apparently interpreted that as a challenge, which I think is dead wrong, and to me the bus driver started the physical aspect of this confrontation. I agree its was unnecessary, the girl should learn when something is worth fighting for, and this definitely was not, but that doesn't mean I think all the fault lies with her.


Just because kids are kids doesn't mean they can't and won't stand up for themselves, or that they shouldn't.
This was clearly as case where the girl should have been smart enough to swallow her pride, for the sake of all involved, but that doesn't excuse the actions of the driver.

As I have said, I will gladly put all the blame (almost) on the girl, if it can be shown, that the driver categorically could not let her of the bus, except at a predesignated stop, without violating US law.




And the law contends that she has absolutely no right to remove herself, AND charges the bus driver with the responsibility of overseeing that fact.

From the U.S. Department of Labor's website:

I don't see anything that says she can't let a student of the bus. I see something about only letting students on the bus, but thats a different thing.


But whats the school policy? We don't really know. Common sense would suggest a student at the age of 15 should be allowed to get of when the bus is stopped, especially since from the quote you posted, the driver is only responsible for what happens on the bus. I guess there is something I just don't understand here - are these 15 year olds under special supervision or something, since they are not allowed to make the decision to get of a bus when its stopped - or is the driver ALWAYS tasked with ensuring each and every student only gets off at a predesignated stop on the route home from school, where a parent is readily available to greet them? If thats the case, I wonder why the driver didn't tell the girl. This is the main reason I blame the driver most - I cannot fathom why she didn't want to let the girl of the bus.


Keyword here is boards... so I would also logically conclude, that the responsibility of the school stops, when the girl gets off then bus on the way home from school, no?


I'm guessing, and I may be very wrong, that students often get off at other stops, for example if they have to visit friends, meet their parents somewhere, go to work or a million other things. If thats the case, whats the harm here in letting the girl off? There should be no lawsuits, and anybody in this case that files one is a moron in my opinion, but then again, its the American get rich quick scheme, so no wonder so many do it.


And thats comparable how exactly?


To me the belittling tone she used, when asking the girl why she was on the bus, is an implicit way of saying get off, even if the words were not uttered directly.
I have had many teachers calling student out in the same way in front of other kids, often for no apparent reason, and its a great way of provoking a reaction. The driver of a bus, or a teacher for that matter, should know better, but this one didn't. I am sure belittling disruptive students in front of other kids is a way of teaching loved by many, I just don't think you can naturally assume the kid will behave responsibly, if that was the case, they wouldn't be called kids.


The students is rather walking towards to the exit, and expecting the driver to let her pass, which she then doesn't. The driver apparently interpreted that as a challenge, which I think is dead wrong, and to me the bus driver started the physical aspect of this confrontation. I agree its was unnecessary, the girl should learn when something is worth fighting for, and this definitely was not, but that doesn't mean I think all the fault lies with her.


Just because kids are kids doesn't mean they can't and won't stand up for themselves, or that they shouldn't.
This was clearly as case where the girl should have been smart enough to swallow her pride, for the sake of all involved, but that doesn't excuse the actions of the driver.

As I have said, I will gladly put all the blame (almost) on the girl, if it can be shown, that the driver categorically could not let her of the bus, except at a predesignated stop, without violating US law.


EDIT: fix quotetags

Look I don't need "if's" I only use if to try to counter your argument and others. I don't have to assume anything.

The video comes on and the bus driver is driving the bus to the curb, and the passengers of the bus are acting orderly. You have to assume this or assume that. Or maybe that or maybe this, because you know as well as I do that the girl is not acting disorderly at the time we see the bus driver pulling over.




Well then let's not debate "if's-thens". Is the child being disorderly when the bus is pulled over. no. Is the bus driver then, stopping the actions of a disorderly child when she pulls the bus to the curb?? The answer is again no, because she is not stopping what is not going on.

I have no problem considering that the student did something wrong, but the fact I entertain "what ifs" does not mean they are needed for my argument. The evidence shown thus far supports my argument.

My argument is thus:
The student is acting in a orderly fashion when the bus driver pulls over the bus. Thus the confrontation was unnecessary as it pertains to the bus driver keeping a orderly and safe environment. The bus drivers actions both verbally and physically, CREATED an unsafe and chaotic environment. Any previous behavior that may have been disorderly were not taking place at the time of the incident. The best solution is to REPORT the actions of the student who are better equipped, better trained, and have more resources to judge and correct disorderly behavior of a student.



But I can see there is no disorderly behavior going on when the bus driver pulls the bus over. Thus what ever WAS done is not BEING done.


We say no disruptive behavior. She does have a right to defend herself. And yes you are right I would consider it a challenge. But saying that. If I were in your house and you belittled me, then upon my telling you "I'm leaving" at which time you physically barred me from leaving, I think would also be a challenge to a fight, what about you?

With concerns to acting??

Listening to the arguments of posters here I have never seen better acting jobs. When you talk about the actions of the bus driver you talk in moral irrelevent terms. "She has the right" "she is not obligated" You all dismiss the humiliation "her right as an authority figure", you dismiss the shoving as "guiding", you dismiss the fact she say "F___ you, you B____" You dismiss the fact that she over reacts to the teenager calling her mother with the response of "well I'm going to call the police" , you all dismiss her refusal to talk to the mother which is an opportunity to diffuse the situation, by saying "she not OBLIGATED to talk to her mother.

I could go on forever at the acting job put forth my You, Mrs P, Entspeak, DR, BA and maybe some others. You all are looking at the bus moving yet some one argued.. the bus was still at the time the tape starts. You guys are looking at the bus driver start the confrontation verbally and physically, but some of you are actually saying the girl starts it. You guys are looking at an orderly bus when the video starts, but are pretending "this girl must have been very disruptive." You guys are looking up rules and policies about how she could not let the girl off the bus... like you have no COMMON SENSE. If the only two options is let the girl off the bus or assault (which IS against the law) her... the bus driver is not going to get fired for letting a 15 year old kid with her mom on the phone and another parent outside the bus. That is "LALA land..." Lastly, you all pretend that every decision the bus driver made from initial confrontation, to cussing, to getting physical, to not allowing the teen of the bus, to not involving other adults at her disposal.. did not lead to a greater and greater volatile and chaotic environment.

But you have to pretend... else you don't and others don't make any sense.



Entspeak


A perfect example of two people pretending.The girl walks to the bus driver because that is the exit to the door. Look at the words of the two woman. One says "I am getting off the bus" the other says "no you are not"

Can we use reasoning and logic yet, or do we still have to pretend we are in lala land?? Cause logic and reasoning would indicate... one of them wanted to merely leave the situation, the other want to not allow that person to leave.

Now in LALA land, I am sure that wanting to leave a situation or a confrontation, is the same as starting the confrontation. But in reality, if you want to stop someone from doing something, you must initiate a confrontation.

Concerning the physical pushing an shoving, do we have to pretend again or can we start using our minds, yet?? I can do either. In lala land we ignore the words of both people, we only see the student as either a ) getting in the face of the bus driver or b ) bowling the bus driver over to get out on the door. Either way works for fairyland.

But if we want to look at reality, which I am sure most of you don't, you see a teen getting up demanding to get off the bus walking in the diection of the bus. At the point of collision she pulls up and says she is getting off the bus. The bus driver say no you are not" At the point when there is physical contact the word of the teen is "get your hands off me" and "your not allowed to touch me" and the words of the bus driver are "sit down" That is the verbal... let us move on to the visual. Visually we see a student grabbing chairs and seats as she is being pushe backwards.. and we see a bus driver pushing her backwards. Both verbally and visually the evidence points to the bus driver being confrontational and the aggressor.. but we can pretend other wise.. right??

So, if your kid were on that bus and demanded to let off anywhere he/she wanted along the way, you'd have no problem with the bus driver doing that?

I can tell you that I would have major problems if the bus driver dropped my kid off anywhere but school or home. Or do I lose my right to that expectation because you don't care?

I'm trying to figure out any scenario that would put the complete blame on the student because right now, many are seeming to state there's not much she could do that would make her 100% responsible for her behavior.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but *I* am not suggesting she let the girl off right then and there. What *I* am suggesting is that the bus driver should have addressed the issue in a responsible and adult-like manner, which she did not. When the kid is trying to exit the bus initially and says as much, the bus driver's first reply is "no you are not". Not, "I cannot let you off the bus at an undesignated stop for XYZ reason" or even "please return to your seat" or even "return to your seat". Those would all have been acceptable and smart responses.

Maybe the fact that I'm a teacher makes me feel strongly about the bus driver's plausability here. You can't just say and do whatever the heck you want just because you're in a position of authority. The bus driver's careless handling of what seemed to be a situation that was in control at the time she pulled over the bus (yes, the bus is CLEARLY still moving at the beginning of the clip) was completely unnecessary.

Many people are saying that a bus driver should not be expected to know how to handle difficult situations because it's not part of the job description. Using that argument/logic, it's even MORE reason for her to take her complaint to someone whose job description DOES entail handling these situations instead of attempting to handle it herself.

Perhaps she could have spoken to the girl's mother, as the girl requested, instead of grabbing and throwing the girl's phone. If that's not childish and immature behavior, I don't know what is.

There are a dozen things the bus driver could have and should have done in the face of a disruptive student (as is being reported...we don't actually SEE any of this in the video until after the bus driver stops the bus and confronts the student).

* not stopped the bus at all (clip shows nothing out of the ordinary on a bus full of kids) and taken her issues up with administrators/supervisors AFTER making her required stops
* stopped the bus, talked to kid to explain why she stopped the bus (which does not include belittling her)
* stopped the bus, talked to kid and when kid tries to get off the bus, explain that she is not allowed to because XYZ (not in a nyah-nyah you're not getting off this bus manner)
* stopped the bus, talked to kid, explain that she is not allowed to get off for XYZ, and if confronted after explanation, inform student that she will let her off at her designated stop
* stopped the bus, talked to kid, explain that she is not allowed to get off for XYZ, and if confronted after explanation, inform student that she will let her off when appropriate, and if kid still tries to get off bus, THEN restraint MAY be warranted.

She did none of those things.

I can say I wouldn't have any problem with that. I wouldn't let my 15 year old kid stay out binge drinking late at night, but I think 15 years is old enough to be entrusted to get off a bus at another stop than usual. When I was 15 I don't know of any parents who didn't trust their kids to do that at my school. If the bus was driving to school that is a different matter perhaps, but I really don't think its the job of the bus driver to force kids to stay on the bus against their will, unless she has responsibility for what happens to kids outside the bus, which hasn't been shown is the case here.


Glad I wasn't your kid then. In my high school 14 and 15 year olds could be entrusted to get on and get of the bus without help from the driver, and I think its a bit much to expect the driver to keep track of students, so that they only get off at certain designated stops. Also its unnecessarily controlling - if you don't trust children at that age to make their own decisions about getting off a bus, my opinion is that you are expecting a degree of control which is unreasonable.


Of course the student is 100% responsible for her behavior. Everybody is, always. What some are saying is, that maybe her behavior was not totally unreasonable and perhaps to be expected, as the situation played out. The students is by all accounts a spoiled brat, and from the video also unsympathetic in her behavior, but that doesn't mean the driver has to instigate a confrontation, or that she is justified in doing so. Children are legally allowed to talk back to authority figures, as far as I know, so her lack of respect and discipline is irrelevant, as far as she is not breaking any laws.

Daytonrocker


DR, stop thinking about "a" scenario and think about this one. Your daughter is not 8, but 15. Do you remember being a 15 year old?? Sure you think you know everything, but you realize as you get older you didn't. But a 15 year old is old enough that we trust our younger kids with them. 15 year old does not go to daycare after school do they?? Why not?? A 15 year old is grown enough that they may go home after getting off the bus or they may go down the street to their freind's house. Would you go out on a date and leave your 15 year old at home alone. If you did would you think people need to call DCS on you??


This is what I mean by "lala" land

You talk about how irrate you would be at the kid, how irrate would you be if your daughter calls you telling you that the bus driver is pushing and hitting you, and when you ask to speak to the bus driver the bus driver but you in more fear of the danger your daughter is in by throwing the phone down. Now you can't talk to the bus driver or your daughter.

Finally, as a father I would, like you, hope my kid just ignored the bus driver and behave the way I raised her. But if the choice is the bus driver assault my 15 year old daughter or let her of the bus... yep I'm the kind of father that would rather see my daughter walk home and I handle it, then get beat down by the bus driver... what about you...

Carlsen said:

What's the policy on a city transit bus? People can't get off just because the bus is at a red light, can they? Of course not.

I'll call the Gilbert Transportation Department tomorrow and find out if there is a law, or a policy backed by law (which is what I was referring to), but I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts there is some sort of front-porch-to-front-porch policy in which the school is liable for the student's safety.

You can't tell me that once the kid steps off the bus and there's a group of bullies with baseball bats standing there that the bus driver can assume no liability for closing the doors and driving away. But I'm all for getting the facts. I'll see what I can find. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I am. But I don't think I am.

Carlsen said:

Believe me, I wish we could do that with disruptive students. Imagine what the mother of this brat would say THEN! "They left my precious snowflake in the middle of traffic!"

Do you think if she COULD let the girl off, she WOULD have, Carlsen? I mean, if we're going to paint this bus driver as being mean-spirited, let's be consistent.

Mrs. Pigpen said:

She was. Apparently when the bus was pulling over, however, she was very calm and in her seat and behaving.

And for this, we're all to believe that she did absolutely nothing wrong.


Do you think?

When the kid doesn't arrive home and it's now 7pm, whose fault is that? My bets are on the schools. And I'd also bet that the bus driver IS accountable to say whether or not the kid got off the bus at the stop or not.

Again, I'll check. This is good stuff.

Carlsen said:

Okay, someone you barely know after you correct them walks straight up to you and doesn't stop.

How do you interpret it, Carlsen? She's not stopping. Are you going to let her shove you aside and possibly injure you? Or are you going to put your guard up?

Where I grew up, if someone intentionally walked into you, they'd bump you with their chest first, knock your balance, and then push you over with their arms. So yes, I would definitely interpret that as an aggressive physical confrontation on the part of the aggressor. On top of that, she's back talking and displaying a generous portion of disrespect and anger. I would most definitely be on the defense., which would include putting my arms up and keeping someone at a distance until I figured out what was going to happen.

Droop said:

Verbally, highly debatable - to a stretch.

Actions? The girl walked right into her. :33 through :37 shows that.

But I find your second sentence even more interesting. So this girl could be slapping the head of the kid in front of her, but as long as it wasn't taking place after she pulled over, she shouldn't address it?

Here is that news report quote again: The video shows Sullivan stopping the bus after repeatedly warning 15-year-old Samantha Taylor to sit back in her seat and stop touching the boy in front of her. If that's a distraction to the bus driver to keep order in that she has to pull over, then that's what it is.

So I'm curious. Because that wasn't happening after she pulled over, the bus driver should have ignored it?

Droop said:

And therefore, the problem doesn't exist?

What if the kid was throwing apples at the bus driver, but wasn't throwing apples at the bus driver at the time the bus was being pulled over?

And that's a fair comparison, because both would be distractions to the driver enough to warrant addressing the situation.

Droop said:

Uh huh. You let your kids ride the bus, pull up in your car, and ask the driver to release your own kid to you.

Good luck with that.

The law and common sense are two different (sometimes opposing) concepts. You know that as well as I.

Again, I ask. If this bus driver COULD have dumped that brat on the street, don't you think she WOULD have? It's obvious and COMMON SENSE that she could NOT, therefore, your entire argument is moot.

Droop said:

She did have the right.
She was NOT obligated.
She DID have the right as an authority figure.
She ISN'T obligated to talk to the mother.

It's pretty obvious that you think breaking rules for someone's convenience is acceptable, regardless of the penalty for the person in charge. You and Samantha have something in common there.

The best acting job I've seen is on video, from a kid who is practically begging to be disciplined, and who obviously has faced little (if any) consequence in her life. But don't let me get in the way of adults having control over kids when they're doing such menial things like DRIVING A BUS or being SCHOOL OFFICIALS or any of that nonsense.

Droop said:


Fallacy: Hasty Generalization.
Fallacy: Strawman Argument

Ding ding ding! Try again, Droop.

KMSouthern said:

And she should have formed these sentences AS Samantha unexpectedly jumped out of her seat, and then fit that in between :33 and :37, and tell me how many words per minute you'd have to speak to get that out.

She was determined to get out, and wasn't listening to reasoning. That much was obvious.

So what makes you think she'd have listened, even if the bus driver DID say XYZ?

Would she have *light bulb goes on above head* instantly found her respect, gotten back in her seat and behaved? You can't say yes without giggling a little.

KMSouthern said:

No, of course not. There are boundaries. But as a person who is directly in charge of the well being of students lives, I'd give her a little leeway with a confrontative brat in order to maintain authority if that's what it took.

Otherwise, you'd have to call it something else. But it's not authority. What good is it if you can't fairly OR unfairly enforce it?

I'm curious. Is it more important on that bus to have the kids respect the driver, or for the driver to assume authority regardless of weather or not the kids like or respect her?

Droop said:

Glad you asked!

Or option three: Follow the directions of the authority and sit down and shut up like you're supposed to.

Was that so hard? I can see you didn't consider the obvious, Droop. And the lesson: Teach your kids to show respect, and they won't look like asshats on the evening news. That's just soooo much to expect from kids, tho, right? Not to commit aggravated assault on a school official?

Hey, by the way - the bus driver is back to work:

Bus Driver Involved in Fight, Back at Work, but Reassigned.

She must have followed a couple of rules, wouldn't you say?

She didn't do "everything," she pulled over the bus and confronted a girl who was in her seat, and who was not any more of a distraction than anyone else. There was a normal level of chatter on the bus at the time the video showed the lady pulling the bus over. She didn't have the right to try and embarrass the girl in front of her friends and other students. That is why it's appropriate to have the administrator meet the kid, or pull the kid out of class and have him deal with it in his office.

Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned by BA in particular, that bus driver's can't be expected to be arm-chair psychologists in handling these children. If that is truly the case, then she should've recognized her limitations, called for help, and kept on driving to allow a teacher or administrator take care of it. That kind of argument only proves that she erred in trying to do what she did.



That's right, and if the bus driver had done it right, the girl wouldn't have stood up in the first place. She would've been bawling in the principal's office and four less people would be charged with assault.



It's the responsibility of the adult to work hard to make sure it doesn't get to that point. The bus driver was "dragging it out."

We do know the school policy. It is set out in detail in the Student code of conduct for Higley school district found here. If you click on the student code of conduct link to the upper left and it will open the pdf document.

And more importantly, here is what the Arizona Department of Safety - the department that trains the school bus drivers - has to say:



Apparently, students are assigned bus stops and they are not supposed to get off at other stops without parental permission. The bus driver is not allowed to let them get off at any other stop from the one they are assigned.

This is the strictest intepretation of the rule. However, we do not know the conditions under which a bus driver is permitted to order an exodus from the bus. I'm sure in whatever courses they must take to drive large transporters, these provisions are covered. I'm still in favor of the bus driver in this whole instance, so rationally it can be assumed what was done was done to better manage or protect everyone involved. A bus driver cannot control a mob in motion, in close quarters, with numerous obstacles.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are not yet a father. Furthermore, I will add that the girl on the bus behaved EXACTLY the way her parents raised her. That is why her parents should be held accountable for her actions as a minor.




Of course they are. Does anybody think for a minute that a school would be so permissive as to open themselves up to potential lawsuits when they drop someone like this girl off wherever she pleases. What happens when she gets molested by some stranger nearby? The school (i.e. all of us taxpayers) gets hit with a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It is the potentiality of such lawsuits that makes public schools very stringent in their adherence to policy - they have to be.

The best response to this subject in my opinion - well stated.

When I see kids in the grocery store or mall acting like brats, it's because they can act like brats. And I'm sure it's my responsibility to endure it when it affects me. I don't get mad at the kid, but I feel like smacking the parents in the head for tolerating that behavior.

But yes, if that kid would have been let off the bus and molested, killed, maimed, or whatever, the bus driver would be facing a very, very large lawsuit along with the school, school board, video camera manufacturer, bus mechanic, school janitor, teacher, principle, guidance counselor, Sponge Bob Squarepants, and George Bush.

But can somebody please - for the love of God - please show me how those rules change because apparently, it's ok to let a 15 year old off the bus, but not an 8 year old. Can someone point me to that magic cutoff age and/or procedure that allows the bus driver to make this decision?

All of this bus stop talk is unnecessary. This entire situation could have been resolved by continuing on the route and reporting the student after the fact. End of story. Kid still gets in trouble for misbehaving. Everyone is happy (except for bratty kid).

Everyone acted irresponsibly. No one is excusing the kid. Some are defending the bus driver and saying she acted correctly.



I never said she would listen. She might have, and we'll never know. What I said was that there were steps that should and could have been taken to avoid the confrontation. The best scenario would have been to take up the complaints with a supervisor since her "job" is nothing more than transporting students to and from school safely (this is what others in this thread have said). If her job is merely safe transportation, behavior problems should be dealt with by someone who has a clue.

And as a teacher, believe you me, I've dealt my my fair share of brats. I had one kid tell me he wanted me to die. He was a seriously troubled kid and all it took was a little bit of patience and work to realize that he just needed someone to pay attention/listen to him...granted he wasn't a teenager and was an elementary school kid. But there are smart ways to deal with obnoxious and even confrontational kids of any age.

All of the people who are excusing the bus driver and focusing solely on the bratty kid's part in this scenario seem to be ignoring the notion that the bus driver had many other options that would have resorted in the kid still getting into trouble but no one else being facing charges. If the kid had followed directions in the first place, the bus driver wouldn't have pulled over the bus. Yes, this is true. But she did not, so now the bus driver has to take charge of the situation in an appropriate manner. She, also did not. Just because the kid did not follow directions does not give the bus driver a free pass to act a fool.

AZWW


You do realize a policy backed by law is still just a policy? Assault is against the law; backtalking the bus driver... is not.


She is saying I am getting off the bus. I hope you never ever are around groups of people. If people walking your direction threaten you, you should definately think about isolating your self , thoroughly. Everyday I walk in the oppisite direction of people on the streets of Chicago. I don't see fights everyday. Do you know why. Because when two people are on a collision course, before colliding they twist their hips turn their shoulders, or simply walk around the other person...

Look AZWW you and others want it both ways:

On one hand, the girl is trying to get off the bus and the bus driver can't let her.

On the other hand, the girl is stepping up to the bus driver to start a physical altercation.

Well if the bus driver CAN'T let her off and the girl is trying to GET off ,wouldn't logic dictate the bus driver must PHYSICALLY PREVENT her from getting off? And since the bus driver has it in her mind that she is going to physically stop the teen from getting off, wouldn't she be the reason a physical confrontation was initiated? Are we allowed to use reason in this debate anymore??




Exactly, the problem does not exist, it existed. Touching a student and throwing apples at the bus driver are both equally dangerous in terms of distraction? But i notice you are back to the "what if" game.. I thought we were done with that game, me and you.

Where I grew up, if someone intentionally walked into you, they'd bump you with their chest first, knock your balance, and then push you over with their arms. So yes, I would definitely interpret that as an aggressive physical confrontation on the part of the aggressor. On top of that, she's back talking and displaying a generous portion of disrespect and anger. I would most definitely be on the defense., which would include putting my arms up and keeping someone at a distance until I figured out what was going to happen.



My point is moot?? Until you find a LAW stating that it is illegal to drop a child off at a stop other than their designated stop, and a LAW stating what a designated stop is, my point is not moot... you just ducked it. But I can find you a law saying it is illegal to assault someone... would you like me to?

And no AZWW she would not drop the kid off if she could, because she is a bus driver with a superiority complex with students, likely cause she feel inferior to her peers. That behavior is exhibited in the manner of how she did not want to talk to the mother or the parent outside the door. She had no interest in order of the bus, her only interest is that she was veiwed "in charge."



You see AZWW, having authority does not make ones actions just in and of itself. This is a philosophical difference between you and I. If we all thought like you there would never be revolutions, to include our own. People would just lay down.

I am asking you for the neccessity, justness, and appropriateness of the Bus drivers actions. I understand why some one would want to leave a place where they were being demeaned?? I don't understand why the busdriver felt the need to discipline a child by trying to belittle her. I understand why a child being confronted by an adult would want to include an adult they trust, like their mother. I don't understand why an adult confronting a student would be oppossed to the idea of speaking with the parent, and in fact throw the phone down.

AZWW you can pass your phone to some one right now, they are perferctly within their rights to throw it to the ground, well, as long as they don't damage it, but that doesn't make it right.

I challenge you to explain why you think the bus driver would not talk to the parent.



Except AZWW... the bus was orderly and controlled. So she doesn't need to pull over the bus to have control it is already there.



Option three is not availible to the bus driver, so you can stop dodging now.

The whole of your argument at this point is:

What is the legal definition of Bus Stop?
The Bus Driver is a moron, with no social skills, an ego maniacal streak and an authority complex.
The 15 year old girl did nothing (I can see on the video tape because she's sitting down when I see her) to provoke this and even if she did see the above.
A "beat down" in my world merely requires physical contact and therefore the bus driver "beat down" the aforementioned 15 year old girl who was simply acting as 15 year old are wont to when treated poorly.

***

Droop this is pretty weak coming from you. Maybe it's time to just admit 60/40 culpability against the girl and I think we can all safely stop talking about this.

kmsouthern,

Is the bus driver supposed to be driving with a student standing and creating a disturbance? No. IF she hits a bump or has to turn and the student falls and hurts herself, who is responsible? So, if, after repeated requests to stop standing up and touching another student, you are saying that the bus driver should not have stopped?

droop,

So, considering the fact that the requests were repeated, are we to understand that the student was constantly standing until the bus driver started to pull the bus over? Or did she start and stop, start and stop? Just because the student was sitting at the moment the bus driver was pulling over in order to deal with her, doesn't mean that the bus driver shouldn't have pulled over and shouldn't have dealt with her.

If a child after repeated requests to put down something that they are not supposed to be holding, puts the offending item down when the parent comes to correct them, should the parent then ignore the offense? That appears to be the line of reasoning here and I don't think it makes sense.

It's the equivalent of accepting the "I wasn't doing anything" defense.

I am not saying that she should not have stopped at all. I'm saying that not stopping is preferable to getting into a confrontation with a student that results in violence. I'm saying that she could have stopped the bus and addressed the kid in a completely different manner. She could have stopped the bus, stood up, turned around, and said "for your safety, I cannot operate this bus while you are standing" or any number of things other than what she did in fact say. If the bus driver does not have the capability/responsibility (back to the job description argument some were using) to deal wtih bratty kids, then she could have radioed in after repeated requests to sit were ignored at which point someone WITH the proper authority could have told her what to do. She had plenty of reasonable options, none of which include physical confrontation. However much fault/blame we place on the girl, the bus driver's actions DIRECTLY caused the confrontation. The kid's INDIRECTLY caused it.

I see it differently. The driver DID radio in several times for help. The student directly caused the confrontation. She is almost an adult, and perfectly capable of reading her own student code of conduct guidelines, which she violated egregiously and repeatedly. The driver was indirectly culpable, by doing the not-optimal. I might not have handled the situation the same (with 20/20 hindsight especially), but she did nothing in violation of the rules.

DoomPlanet


Then it would be just another instance when you are wrong in this debate, not that that is likely an issue for you. Two kids, 6 and 8, boy and girl. And no I do not have a problem with corporal punishment.



Yes I do. Did you ride the bus in High School?? There was no point when I got on with a note saying "this is my stop" Not even the first day of school. And when I got off the bus driver did not call off roll. Samantha, Johnathan, Eric, Susie, and Tim this is your stop" I rode the bus for 4 years of High school (though not often my senior year), not to mention that in my Senior year if my boy, who could drive wasn't going to school the bus driver didn't even recognize me. But i was at the appointed lace at the appointed time, so the bus driver let me on. And when I got off I just let the bus driver to drop me off at my stop, or I got offf at the stop and walked for 5 minutes... it depended on the bus driver.

But I would love to hear about the High School students that are/were daily given role on the bus. Sounds made up to me. Any Students still in or recently out of High School care to chime in.



You know I empathize with you and bad kids in public laces I feel the same. But I also feel the same about bullies. Don't like them... But what's the grocery story got to do with this situation.



Yeah right DR, and what would the jury say when they see the tape shows that a 57 year old woman tried to hold the girl and tell her to go back to her seat, but the only way to keep her on the bus was to assault her?? What would happen to your imaginary lawsuit then DR.... let me guess... no response.




The magical cutoff age is when the child is big enough that you and your daughter would have to jumper to attempt to keep her on the bus. So it varies...

Rules and policies are not laws.... if the only way to maintain a policy is to break the law.. which should go out the window first??




You make up an argument that isn't mine, then call it weak. Why not just address my arguments. And I hate to sound like i am negotiating , but you give me 60/40 on the bus driver being at fault and i will make that deal.

The bus driver is ill-equipped to handle an unneccasry situation. As Myself, KMSouthorn, Nebraska, and a few others pointed out the bus driver had options on multiple times to act like an adult. She was just as bratty as the brat. Cussing and throwing phones down. So the bus driver gets the 60 percent fault, for the following reasons.. not knowing her limitations, initiating the conflict unneccessarily, and acting like a bratty child even though she is an adult. Deal??

55/45 Bus Driver and a limited edition "Bus Brawl '08" keyring (the Sterling Silver not the plated 18k).



I have to admit hearing what you've said here and in other threads about children and raising them (me == g4 & b9) I wonder why you're more concerned with the bus driver. You know your kids will handle this differently - because you taught them to.

I found it.. direct url is:

Higley Student code of conduct

First I just want to say OH MY F****** GOD. Who writes this garbage? You would think children and parents in the US are mindless automatons the way the rules are spelled out in detail.

I have read the chapter titled "Bus Safety Program (Policy EEAE)". Absolutely nothing about students only allowed to get off at certain stops, just that they need a general permission to ride the bus.
I would think if they had rules about pre-approved stops, then it would definitely be in this document, but maybe its in another section? I admit to not reading the entire thing. 30 pages of that, and I would probably have to be committed.

Of course there is something about ALWAYS doing what the driver says, no matter if the world is coming to an end, but that is just a policy. I don't think that technically gives to driver the right to keep passengers on the bus against their will. For sure, if this student has signed the document, she should be expecting a whole range of disciplinary measures from the school, but that doesn't change the fact, that I still think the bus driver should have let her off to avoid a unnecessary physical confrontation, that benefited none of them.

Well I suppose our definitions of what constitutes "direct' and "indirect" are different then. The bus driver directly caused the conflict by pushing the student. The student indirectly caused the conflict by not following directions.

Using your direct/indirect logic, would then a child who was not following directions be directly responsible for an abusive parent's actions since it was the child's fault the parent got abusive in the first place? Of course that makes no sense.

The tape shows the bus driver on the radio after she initiates this situation. I do not see or hear anything to suggest that she had previously radioed authorities. Assume for argument's sake that she did, I highly doubt the person on the other end would have suggested she get into a shouting match with a teenager.

Both of these people screwed up. Both of them are at fault. We cannot be sure what would have happened had the bus driver used better judgment (the kid may have returned to her seat, she may not have...we'll never know). We DO know that when the bus driver addressed the student after stopping the bus, her actions directly led to a physical confrontation that COULD have been avoided.

Okay, at what point does she cuss before the full out physical altercation occurs? Which, by the way was clearly instigated by the student who is seen very clearly pushing the driver back in an attempt to get her confiscated phone. It appears to me - from the angle at which the girl is attempting to bend to reach the phone - that the phone is most likely sitting on the driver seat. Again, the driver is the person in authority.

kmsouthern,

You do not know whether or not the bus driver told the student that she would be unable to continue if she didn't stay in her seat. You have no idea what was said in those repeated attempts to get this child to behave before the bus was pulled over. The fact that she points out very clearly that now the child is holding people up with her behavior indicates the bus driver may have stated that she couldn't continue with the student behaving the way she did.

Again, and this is clear on the tape... the bus driver is pushing the child back to her seat. She is not pushing the child simply to push the child.

And it is absolutely ridiculous to believe that a bus driver who is not allowed to let a student off the bus could know that the child would attempt to get her phone by shoving her aside. The bus driver has to maintain control until a person of authority shows up. The child would not do as she was told. The bus driver, in no way, caused the physical altercation. In no way, shape or form. The child started the disruptive behavior, refused to cooperate, there was an attempt to physically get the child to comply, that attempt was resisted... the CHILD started this, not the bus driver.

Hmmm.. seems like I stand corrected, to a degree:

Fox News interview with the girl in the bus

She apparently did need special permission to get off the bus at another stop, and apparently thats why she called her mom, so the mom could talk to the bus driver about that.
Maybe she is just saying this now, but it seems logical. You want to get up the bus, but you know you are not allowed to. You call the only one you can think of that can give you that permission, but the driver isn't interested. Catch 22.

Also, in the interview she recognizes she could have behaved better, but also claims the only reason she was singled out by driver, was because she was on her cellphone, which she claims is permitted. Will be interesting to hear the drivers side of the story. I still tend to believe she was not hitting the boy in front, because then why wouldn't they release a video of that, since it would be part of the incident? That leads me to another question: how come the video was released in the first place?

From the code of condut:

You're right. I don't know what she may have said prior to that tape coming on. What I DO know is that from the time the bus driver stopped the bus to the time she pushed the student to her seat (which is the beginning of "physical confrontation" by my definition of physical and confrontation), she did not once tell the child to return to her seat. When the child got up and said she was getting off the bus, the bus driver said "no you're not" and pushed her back to her seat.

I happen to think an adult should be the more responsible party here. My job entails reacting to unruly children in a responsible manner. I've taught my child to be respectful (almost to a fault..she's the kid who's likely to be bullied because she's always nice to everyone and won't speak up for herself if someone is bothering her...we've talked about this on many occasion). Obviously others disagree with me and no amount of further analysis of the situation, short of getting the footage of what took place prior to the bus being pulled over, will change any opinions on this matter. I do wonder though, why the footage begins at this particular point. Shouldn't there be footage from the entire bus ride? Does the bus driver have the ability to turn on and off the camera?

I think everyone is to blame. The kid is a jerk. The bus driver is a jerk. They both acted like fools and should both be held accountable for their actions.

I have even wanted to be lumped in with "conservative thinkers" on any issue except law and order stuff- but man, now I see why the word "liberal" has become such a dirty word. Seriously- giving this 15 year old the pass we are seeing here (she should be dating the girl with the most cigarettes and parental rights terminated, obviously a little princess with a borderline personality disorder) - and at worst, the bus driver should be given a class on how to deal with personality disorders.

Bottom line is- this is a shining example of why we have so many troubles with our schools- too much leeway given to spoiled brat kids, and too much second guessing the adult.

A nice hot steaming cup of STFU should have been that girl's only option.

I do not favor breaking the jaw of a child- but tazing her in this situation would have been entirely appropriate.

As long as we have a society that reacts so badly towards the adult and completely lets off this student the way she has been allowed- this points to the real problem in this country- the parents.