Then maybe you can explain why the bus driver said this, "Why don't you find another way then?"

At that point, Sammy finds another way, her feet. I guess you overlooked that part of the video.

I have read through the debate and what I found was a bunch of Straw Man arguments, especially by yourself.

OH MY GOD!!! SHE HAS A CELL PHONE!! Seriously, the Oscars are over, you didn't get nominated, tone it down.

There are no strawmen here dude, none whatsoever. I have seen this behavior by teens increase exponentially because of this very behavior of justifying and trying to find minutuea of details that somehow let's her behavior off the hook, while holding the adult in an untenable position.

Had she shut up and sat down, and took her medicine, as she should have, there would have been some detention, at worst.

Once again, this is the very reason, the overwhelming reason, we have decreasing freedoms today- is this notion that somehow, a teenager is allowed to back talk and argue with an adult when confronted.

There is no way in heck I would have tried to pull that stunt on a bus, because I knew my parents would, in no way, shape or form, even obliquely, condone my behavior if it was like this little waste of oxygen.

But yet, she feels entitled to this behavior, over and over again. And some people validate it by blaming the driver-

kids like this are experts at splitting adults, and it is working quite well in our society- just look at gang activity in upper socio-economic suburbs.

Look at the columbine shooters- very similar in parental oversite- that is to say- little to none, with no sactions on thier behaviors when behaving badly.

Drove thier Beemers to school with weapons they made in thier parents garage.

Entitled self important brats that are allowed to split adults when she acts badly.

I will tell you- I got one break from my parents, in my life, over a fight involving a guy, um, dishonoring my family by spreading lies about my sister.

Until my Dad got the whole story- I was in serious trouble, no matter "who started it"

This was only 1981 man!

I was not only brining guns and ammo to school then- my principal would have been angry if I didn't- because we were leaving after school on a hunting trip.

I would never even dream of using it incorrectly, in any manner, due to my fear of authority, that lasted until I was an adult and could and should make adult decisions.

I see it 110% the failing of the public school system in this incident- because the parents allowed this kind of behavior in thier child, and the laws in that area empowered them to act this way.

The girl is being empowered by her "oppression by the bus driver " instead of getting the Rodney King beat down she so richly deserves.

Great- when she goes and has her babies by four different daddies, we will blame poverty or something other than the parents for thier children's failures in life.

Let me add this- I love kids, have kids, have raised kids not my own, from bad situations they had no control over, and turn out great- but I have seen too many kids, from privileged homes, that have been enabled by the system and parents like hers in my lifetime.

I have had to give my own son a couple spankings, he is wound a bit tight sometimes, and my daughter, I think only one swat maybe even. It broke her little heart- my disapproval is usually enough to stop both kids in thier tracks.

I have had a cousin live with me (my cousins kid) that was slipping into gang activity, mostly due to being able to split his parents during thier divorce- the mom's fault in this case- the husband didn't play into it- and we turned him right around as well by hard work and hard living in the boondocks.

But kids are geniuses at splitting adults when they see an opportunity- and this is just such a girl that has obviously done it her whole life- look at the lies she tells on the phone.

She really needs to be taken down, and given a good lesson in shame and humilation, in a big enough way to fundamentally change her for life.

Entspeak I can't get the video to play, but listening to what you say, was there any disorder going on the bus from the time you saw it, that created a necessity for the bus immediately stopped for the safety of other students??

If a hand waving of the student is what prompted the bus driver to pull over the bus, can we conclude anything other than the bus drivers ego was hurt by what she felt was a lack of respect? Well Entspeak, we already knew that, by the bus drivers initial line of questioning, we already knew it was about ego when the main point the bus driver was trying to get around to the student was not "Stop doing XYZ", but rather "Tell everyone how much you need me the bus driver" So can we already agree on that and get past it.



Entspeak what are you talking about?? If a cop asks someone to put a gun down and they refuse, then the cop repeats put the gun down they refuse, then the guy puts the gun down, only to be shot in the chest by the cop 10 seconds later. And the cops excuse is well he wasn't compliant 10 seconds ago, what would you say??

I guess what I am trying to say is I don't understand your argument. If your contention is that the bus driver has the right to keep order of the bus and responsible for the childs safety, why are you debating me?? The bus IS orderly, by stopping the bus and having a confrontation with a student, because she bruised the ego of the bus driver, an unsafe environment is created. If you look to the right side of the video the left side of the bus, you'll see cars squeezing by the bus. Your hear a student comment about traffic lined up behind them.. and your contention was all this was necessary because the student waved her off.

Not sure I understand your line of questioning. The student doesn't what a physical altercation, the student wants to get off the bus. The bus driver does not want to let the student off the bus, but wants instead the student to sit back down in her seat. The only way the bus driver can't get what she wants is by use of physical force, unless she has some psychic powers. You talk around that fact. Now, once the bus driver initiates physical force to enforce her will, the only way the student can defy the will of the bus driver is by answering physical force... is with physical force. The bus driver doesn't have to let the student push past her, the bus driver was leaning to the right when the student gets out of her seat. The bus driver then steps to the left and moves slightly forward to engage the student. Go look at the video again all i say is true. The bus driver could have said "It is against the rules to let you off, but I can't force you to stay without breaking the law" and stepped aside. Or she could have talked to the Mom, but of course no one has yet to address this issue other than to say "she is not obligated'




Well what do you here her saying at 1:28? When she juts out her chin.

and... Everyone here agrees that would have been the best response. Nebraska, KmSouthorn, Carlsen, myself, everyone of us has stated the best thing the student could do would be to ignore the Bus driver, or wave her off again. We're not the ones giving the pass. The bus driver pulls over the bus unnecessarily since the bus is orderly... mistake. The bus driver repeatedly throws down a chance to diffuse the situation by talking to the mom... mistake, the bus driver has to make a choice between a physical alter cation with a 15 year old or let a 15 year old off the bus.. she chooses assault... mistake.

The very best thing the student could have done is shut up an ignore the bus driver.
The very best thing the bus driver could have done is report any misbehavior to the administration, instead of stopping the bus to thump her chest.

AZWW


Wheeew WEEEE!! Boy, you did good finding that law. But BAAAM!!! Look what I got baby... some CASE LAW from an appellate court. In a nut shell little 13 year old Julio told his teacher to "F___ off" numerous times. The court found that the law was changed in 1989 from "insulting and abusive" to just "abusive". The courts conclude that talking back to the teacher IS NOT against the law.

QUOTE

[/i]

Now, where were those laws you had to find making it illegal for the bus driver to let the student off.


not yet...



It's hard to see how a adminstrative code not punishable by law is against the law. But lets say you are right... who cares... because everyone is breaking these "laws"

here is code everyone is breaking
I count 5 infractions in the 3 seconds of the the bus moving coming to a stop...

And for the bus driver



What's that whorly sound, yep, engine still running. So again the bus driver starts breaking the "laws" first. She's the adult AZWW and she can't follow the laws!!

The whole bus is acting illegally so what is your point??



Because 1 it creates an unsafe environment, 2 it could lead to a confrontation if not handled properly, 3 she is not trained or equipped to deal with this situation, 4 she has other options like reporting to people who are equipped to handle this situation.



The driver did no know this. If the bus drivers fear was only getting fired she would have talked to the mother of the child in question in an attempt to resolve the situation. Doyou yet consider why the bus driver threwe the phone down??



What other stories??



Was she unorderly when the bus driver pulled the bus over?? Then why did she pull the bus over?? Why not let administrators handle this... that is their job, not hers. Was she right to stop the bus when it is orderly, just to act like a school administrator?



Don't get so caught up in the hype of debate that you lose track of what I am saying. I would not tell tmy kids to buck the system for the sake fo bucking the system. But if it comes a point that they feel abused they should act. Don't allow something horrendous to happen, suffer through it, then come tell me. And I can't judge if I am not there. The most I can do is give them my expectations and hope they follow. As the get older they get more rope to decide. But more than anything they know my standards, cause I'm not a nice dad.



That's not my logic... Answer me this if you dare?? Why do little kids who do get abused allow it?? Why? Because they believe a person i sa person of authority and they have parents that teach them... It doesn't matter what you feel about what the person of authority is doing to you. If you feel wronged you just drink your "cup of STFU" and you can tell me about it, later.

I'm not comparing the actions of some child molestor and this bus driver. I am saying that kids that have tragic thing like this happen believe that authority makes right, and they allow these things to happen because parental/social talks have taught them that authority trumps their ability to make judgement calls of when they are being abused and when they are not, and to act out against abuse if they feel it unwarranted.



Because I understand real life. In this world no one else is allowed to have teeth. They are all bark. My daughters teacher sends my daughter home with sheet of paper I have to sign. Green is good. Yellow is she had a problem. Blue is theyhad a big problem.

What do you think that really does to my daughter??? Nothing. The card is not for them, the card is for me. I'm the one with the teeth, I'm the only one that can lay the smack down, I'm the only one that can make the kid say ouch when they sit... well my wife too, but she rarely does.



Then you are not reading. My kids won't act a fool at the drop of a dime because it's too painful to do so.


Your still not listening. I would rather my kid shut up and ignore the bus driver in this exact instance. How ever the bus driver actions in the instance are so uncalled for that I find the bus driver more responsible for the events that happened.



Well it wouldn't have to appear so if people would just stop making excuse for the bus driver and her actions.

You're all over the place. Columbine, splitting adults, baby daddies, Rodney King? In your mind you have somehow managed to transform the bus driver into the gatekeeper between a peaceful society and all-out cannabilism. Quite a leap.

My My aren't we riding high on the rhetorical seas.

I've got my pin, time to burst a few bubbles.


Couldn't resist

Anywhoo on to the more egregious violations


You...must... be joking.

First off I haven't seen anyone give the kid a pass, let alone the majority of the participating liberals.

Second, "personality disorder" "waste of oxygen"?!

I dubbed her cell phone harpy in jest but really let's all take a deep breath and realize we cannot say anything conclusive about their child's character from this one incident.

Does she crave attention? Well duh, she's 15 and the world revolves around her.

...but let's all ease up on the vitriol, this is a kid were talking about not Ted Bundy.


PC... there the meaningless term that signals an end to all rational thought.

How about practically correct, i.e. responding to the situation like she had more than horse sense?

Turnea- you have just dealt out the "pass" = "any 15 year old craves attention"- you do know that craving attention, regardless, in many countries, and until fairly recently, that kind of attention seeking was slapped down, and hard, usually by the parents?

There is nothing rhetorical about it Turnea- the Columbine shooters had EVERYTHING in common with this girl. Expensive junk given by thier parents. Enabling parents, that took the kids side over the adults in charge. Parents that don't know thier kids every move, all the time, and the threat of losing all privileges for cheating on that rule.

Yep, I have no problem calling her a waste of skin, scuzz bucket lying little pycho path, just from watching her lying and conniving behavior on her precious cell phone.

However, I do give a complete pass to the bus driver, she was in completely unavoidable and uneviable position, and my heart goes out to her.

I can really understand why we have a teacher shortage as well.

I will take this one step farther- this incident is, to me, an example of everything that is wrong with America today- no foolin'

Allow me to explain with questions:

Why do we have a "nanny state"?

Why do kids feel empowered to "call child protection services" if they are disciplined by thier parents?

Why do we have a victim mentality in the US?

Why does no one, top to bottom, in our system, in a position of leadership EVER take responsibility for thier failures and resign in shame?

It comes from a pattern of incidents like this, where a kid is percieved to be a "victim" of the circustances he/she created, and not forced to take responsibility for thier behaviors, and shown that yes, life can be unfair, too bad, so sad, STFU unless it is something important.

The very fact that the parents have NOT done the right thing here, and issued a public apology (with perhaps a negotiation with the bus driver over no civil damages) taken away everything that makes that girls life comfortable- leaving her with a blanket, pillow and two changes of clothes to her name in her room, if not a boot camp like program for her, and humiliated thier daughter very publically, speaks as to "why" of those questions.

We are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law- but we have lost shame when we are guilty, and our society, the good people of our society, have to suffer for it.

Oh, and P.S.- this crap about how kids are afraid to speak up, and it is those well behaved children that are victims of sexual abuse- well, that is pure fecal material. Typically, kids that are victims of sexual abuse (and I have yet to have a single case show me otherwise, in 20 years) are totally out of control with no or little parental control. They get a "pass" for bad behavior, because the kid keeps a secret.

- maybe we ought to start making some investigations as to whether this girl is being molested by her parents?

Violence, of course, is preferable to temper tantrums.

Both are simply emotional reactions one from the parents one from the child. No point replacing one pathology with another.

Second I simply pointed out her motivation. One does not have to act on all cravings. I'm not giving her a pass, but the fact is being a 15 year old girl has to be a mitigating (not exonerating) factor.


All we know was that she had a cell phone she claimed was soo expensive. That's it.

Everything else is conjecture.

I think the Columbine link is far-fetched.


Just some kid giving her friends a little show with little to no regard for those who wanted to just go home.

I've seen psychopath, this is lame.


...and this is why conservatism is a dirty word.

Slather some functionary with the slightest bit of authority and they become infallible.

The situation was indeed avoidable, she could have keep her emotions in check and dealt calmly with the student.

Instead she chose to escalate the situation and play right into the girl's hands.

Uh, Turnea- are you seriously thinking that this is the first time for this behavior? How many social norms did she have to explode in order do find it okay to do this? As my co-workers have said after viewing this vid "she ain't no po girl"- everything she is saying, doing, wearing, having screams "Mommy and Daddy can afford anything I tell them to buy" or darn near it.

This is a clear case of why it is too bad that we don't allow her entire life to be dissected publically, why "confidentiality" rules generally favor the criminal.

I would love to see her school records, I am betting a pretty long history of bad behavior, and changed schools, because the school system is "so unfair" to thier little snowflake.

Look at the other students- not the perp. Most of them are confused as to what is going on, a couple of the guys clearly look like they want to help the bus driver, by body language, but are still stopped by a series of social norms, that are part of any crowd dynamics, especially in children.

She had to have nearly 0 social contraints on her behaviors, in order to behave so badly, so publically.

the little attention whore is used to this behavior, in fact, likes to function in it- she is not exactly contrained in any way by the social aspect and such of her behavior.

Turnea- the strongest behavior modifier has always been the social one- for instance, take the biggest fear on earth- fear of public speaking- it derives from social disapproval.

That is a learned behavior, not something you can be born with- social conditioning, positive or negative, is the strongest conditioning.

This girl has learned that her behavior has no consequences, socially or individually.

Now- as you well know, I am not one for the abject worship of authority figures - adults should and can question authority, and it's appropriate use, and to some smaller degree, in a controlled forum, with boundries, older teenagers as well should do this.

The bus driver is no cop, nor is she paid to be one- she has a set of rules, most of what will take her livelihood if she does not follow them- as the links have provided- I am sure, more than anything else, she would have loved to kick the chunk of human offal off the bus, - instead, she knew her job was in jeopordy, and, she was in a lose-lose situation, unfortunately, this is true for so many parents today.

We have taken away the tools we need to keep kids from turning into low-lifes like this kid, and replaced it with nothing. No accountability, no consequences and no boundries.

I call her names, because it is what she is- she has been allowed to needlessly ruin the life of an adult, due to adult acceptance of "girls will be girls, and the bus driver should know this" - this IS the stuff I am talking about as a "pass"-

30 years ago- none of us would have been even discussing the behavior of the bus driver, and rightly so- and the deterioration of our schools and the violence and all the acting out can be traced to this issue IMHO- assigning any blame to the bus driver, and not giving it all to the out of control waste of skin.

A decent kid, raised to be a decent human being, that has respect for others, doesn't act like this kid- ever- too many social norms have to be broken, not the least of which is "I don't want to look stupid in public".

Without those decent kids, we will gradually lose freedom, because at some point, order will become more important than freedom.

When you go to other countries, and you see the fear of "american culture invading our country" - this is what they fear- our kind of freedom brings a decadence, a rotten aspect, into thier culture.

I don't see this as totally true- but like I have pointed out- the religious right and the Taliban are more alike than different- and what drives them? It is the idea that 'too much freedom" leads to 0 accountability for bad behavior, and, to some degree, since we don't seem to have a mechanism as a society in place to combat this, they are correct.

So we end up becoming the nanny state we have been moving towards, while losing more and more freedom, instead of drawing lines at certain bad behaviors in children, and that fosters another generation of "victims" and such.

Freedom without self discipline will lead to no freedom at all- and they only time to teach self discipline is in childhood- by adulthood, if you don't have it- you will probably be an adult-hood.

WEll no one has took the time to answer the question, but I.

1. Saying the kid doesn't belong on the bus is speculation. The bus driver calls the girl "sammy" or at least it sounds like that in the beginning of the ride. But lets assume she doesn't the the girl does not belong on the bus. Pulling the bus over can not resolve this issue. The bus driver is responsible for getting students to their stops. If she doesn't belong the only options for the bus driver is drop her off at a stop of her choice or turn around the bus and take her back to school.

2. I think it is questionable whether cell phone are allowed on the bus. Someone posted something that showed that cell phones aren't permitted during school hours. But buses tend to run before and after school. Semantics. Even if cell phones are not allowed the bus driver only addressed one person though two people are clearly on the phone. To single out one student for doing something 2 stuudents are doing make the bus driver look like she has a personal vendetta.

3. The bus driver is in quite of a predicament here. What do you do when someone bigger, just as strong as you demands to be removed from your custody. At what cost do you keep them. You have to display good judgment here. The bus driver should have talked to the mother to try the resolve the situation and regain order. sadly the bus driver wasn't interested.

4. Kid didn't make false claims. When the bus driver was only pushing her the kid told her mom the bus driver was "touching" her. The next time the teen has the phone after it is thron by the bus driver the bus driver had popped her in the chest/breast and had smacked the teens hand from pointing at her. That's neither here or ther, cause the second part of the question is the most important. Why didn't she get on the phone to explain the situation to the mother WHY?? Because the woman has an ego the size of the bus. Since the girl wants off the bus she wasn't getting off the bus, since the girl wanter her to talk to her mom, she wasn't talking to the mom, since the girl wanted her phone, she was willing to fight to keep the girl away from the phone. the bus driver is acting like a teen and none of you care.

5. Well if you are talking about prior to the initiating of the confrontation my answer is WAIT, the issue is not pressing and she is not trained to handle these situations. If there standing up for quick periods of times the occasional loud conversation or loud noises happen on public buses, then let that pass till tomorrow. If it becomes a slight distraction report the improper behavior to faculty better equipped to handle students. Do anything and everything to diffuse the situation. Answers to 3 and 4 apply again. TALK TO THE PARENT. And if the choice you have before you as an adult is assault a teenager or let them walk home... let them walk home.

Droop:


And here's the next paragraph.

So then you also must content that when the Bus Driver said, F*** you, you B****" to a fifteen year old, that absolutely no recourse or correction should be issued. Oh! But YOU were OUTRAGED!

I see three dangerous precidents that this brings out.

1. Foul language, particularly "F*** you", is now deemed legally acceptable to use between students and teachers.
2. There really is no legal consequence for even the worst of students among the best and brightest. This is why I have been for vouchers, using vouchers, and will continue to watch the public school system crumble from within.

3. And finally, I got Droop-Winked. Damn you, Droop. I was so sure I had that one in the bag.

<insert "and I would have gotten away with it too...." Scooby Doo quote>

You guys can rip the ultra-Conservative and religious moral segments on many issues. But I can tell you this: Not one of the parents of a kid who did what Droop's hero did above would have even contested the court ruling of a student telling a teacher's aid to continually "f--- off". That kid would still be looking for his teeth in the front lawn instead of looking in different dictionaries for "better" definitions of "insult" and "abuse".

Droop - how hard are you going to be on your kids when they tell the teacher to F--- off, when telling them to F--- off is really not illegal, and just a mere "rule" or "code of conduct"?

Droop:
And why would they follow them? Laws... Policies... Rules... who gives a rats backside, Droop?

You said so yourself.

They can sing F--- and S--- songs to school. That is, unless someone enforces them.

Why don't you type out the actual words like F--- and S---? Because Mike and Jaime would give you three shots and you're gone. See, there's a consequence there, and you've been around long enough (more than me!) to see it happen probably. But I don't have to see it - I just take the rules at face value. If there were no rules, this board would have the look and feel of Yahoo Answers, and be overrun by Ron Paul supporters and UFO enthusiasts.

Being obedient to an authority doesn't automatically mean that the child no longer has an opinion. Or stops BEING a kid, nor is it censoring them.

"But then everyone is doing it, so why bother".... Good god. The adults believe this now....

I guess that answers my question. Everyone will be able to backtalk bus drivers and disrupt them because one person did it and got away with it. Just like several kids had cell phones because nobody enforced everyone NOT having them.

We already see the evidence of kids leaving school more stupid because teachers can't control their classrooms and... you know... TEACH CLASS.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if bus drivers start snapping and rolling buses off bridges.

Or we could just expect kids to listen to authority and back it up very sternly when they don't. Which sounds better to you guys?

Droop:

Yeah, or that the entire bus could jump in. I didn't say it was the only fear. I said it was one concern.

Droop:

I've already answered that. And you didn't respond to it. Either address the point when I answer it, or stop asking the question after I've already answered it. Twice.

There was nothing that was going to come out of that conversation.

We already know that the girl lied to her mother at the first sentence. So the mother, believing the lie (naturally) is going to do what? Board the bus and make the two shake hands and apologize to each other? Consider that her own daughter is full of crap, and become an instant referee?

In what I read from you, Droop, the students have plenty of rights over the bus driver.
The parents have plenty of rights over the bus driver.
The bus driver apparently had the right to STFU and keep driving the bus, regardless of weather or not she thought it was safe. And your proof for that is that we see kids "in control" as the bus pulls over, we're to assume that the problem is over and solved.

Using that same logic, if you're in a bar and someone flicks your ear, and continues to do so until you're ready to clean his clock, but then stops as you get up to confront him, you should just go sit back down. And as many times as that bar drunk wants to flick your ear, say, every 10 minutes as he walks by, as long as he backs down when you get up, you need to keep control. You have that kind of patience, Droop?

I don't blame the bus driver for feeling powerless because of the student's actions towards her. So why would she invite herself to feel MORE powerless with the mother involved? Do you think it was going to help HER situation? We'll never know, but judging by the daughter, that's be a preliminary "hell no" if you ask me.

Droop:

Good. We agree there. Nobody wants something horrendous to happen to kids.

I just don't happen to consider an adult correcting a teenager's behavior is "horrendous".

Droop:

Probably because nobody listens to them, and nobody bothers to ask.

You can't argue that Samantha has this problem. Though, I could see why it wouldn't be a first preference to indulge a self-important drama queen with an "expensive" cell phone. But you went from one side of the extreme spectrum to the other side.

Droop:

Absolute power at age 15 and talking back to a teacher is not to be confused with kids not having teeth.

Samantha did nothing to further any student. She's not the Rosa Parks for bus-riding students everywhere. I'm not quite sure what she proved, but again.. the bus driver is back to work and she's still at home pretending the victim.

Let's crack a few buses into semi-trailers and tin-can some Toyota Priuses because "the driver should have ignored the elephant in the bus and kept on driving, and dealt with it later", but was actually distracted. "No need to confront the student then". Of course, I've seen no opposing response that would actually quantify what WOULD be distracting enough to pull the bus over...

...After all, they were all sitting like perfect angels.


Edited to add:

So much for the whole "It Takes a Village to Raise a Child" theory.

Apparently the villagers charged with such a duty are to do it with their hands firmly tied behind their back, blindfolded and gagged.

AZWW


But I would never claim she broke the law cussing at the student. Unless she was threatening when doing so.
and-

Well they get a beat down from me AZWW, but I don't think they need to be called criminals for it.



Truthfully AZWW I think you are going off the deep end like the bus driver. You don't have to have either or. This is an instance where the bus driver acted irrationally and you have to go high and to the right to defend her.

You have to make touching a student or having a converation on a cell phone, or standing up into an issue so grandoisem so dangerous to the well being of the students that the bus driver just HAD to pull that bus over to save the day. You refuse to look at my views of this as just this instance.

Truth be told the bus driver is louck the media was on her side. When I first saw this on the news i only saw the parts of the girl screaming pushing, dangling her hand in the camera like a little snot. And I formd an opinion that this girl was really bad, but the bus driver shouldn't have just argued with her.

Then... thanks to your link, I finally saw the full scope of the bus drivers actions and her character as a person took a nose dive.It doesn't totally excuse the behavior of the teen, but now it is understandable to me. Instead of an out of control teen and an adult trying to calm the situation down regain order. You had an out of control teen with an out of control adult.



No you didn't, you simply said she is not obligated to.



One she did not lie to her mother, see my argument to DR above. Two, the bus driver is not psychic so how does she or you know all this... if nothing else you'll have the mother giving permission to let her daughter off the bus at the next stop and tell the daughter shut up and sit down to the next stop.



Here we go with the scenarios... and I don't mind them but they are so far from what I envision... to answer your question

If the teen were to say.. throw an apple at the bus driver, sit down, throw an apple, sit down, throw an apple sit down, your analogy would make sense and i would agree with you.

I mean really AZWW what do you envision the teen was doing before the camera came on. Be more specific than distracting



Again... you misunderstand me... what to do.


What I mean is... say you do something bad in school... they suspend you right. But so what that is threee days they gave you off of school. So what?? That punishment has no teeth.

Now those three days, it's up to parents deliver punishment with teeth, punishments that make life miserable. Or just a straight up whoopin'!! Thsi is what I mean by I am the only one with teeth when it come to my kids.

Well, if you are proving to be a distraction to the bus driver, then you are endangering the other students. Isn't that right? So, if the bus driver has to deal with you while she's driving, you are distracting her and endangering the safety of the other students.



If the wave of the hands is an indication that the student didn't care about what the driver was saying to her, it is reasonable for a driver to believe that that student may continue to be a distraction. I think you may be projecting... you haven't seen the whole video. Even the video I provided is missing the initial 6 minutes.



How long does it take to pull a bus over, droop? You'd have to find a safe place to pull over, right?

Besides, droop... this incident started several minutes before which, if you are to believe the reports, involved the bus driver repeatedly telling the student to sit down. Now, we have to rely on these reports because these people have watched the video. They may not be showing all of the video - for whatever reason - but that doesn't mean they're lying in the reports. You are choosing to ignore those reports because it serves your argument to do so. You are basing your argument that the child was not acting up in the 10 seconds it may have taken the bus driver to pull over.

Your analogy is more accurate if the guy puts the gun down and it takes 10 seconds for the officer to reach the guy to arrest him. Your saying the guy shouldn't be arrested because he didn't have a gun for that 10 seconds.



The bus is orderly while the bus is being pulled over. The bus had been disorderly for several minutes before.



The authorities had already been called and were supposed to be on their way. Dealing with a parent who has been lied to about the situation is not in the best interest of the situation. It is true that she is under no obligation to deal with a parent who has been lied to. Then she has a busload of kids and an angry parent to deal with.



I don't hear her say what you claim she says. Again, I've listened to it closely several times. I don't hear her say what you claim she says. Do you have something else to base that claim on?



The student has been causing a disturbance for six minutes... so much so that the student she has been touching has to turn around and shout at her to stop... and the bus driver is supposed to do nothing about this student who has been proving to be a distraction for six minutes?



Well, the law states that the Department of Administration, working with the Department of Safety and the School Bus Advisory Council make the rules for school bus operation. As was posted previously, the Arizona Department of Safety states that school bus drivers are not allowed to let students off at stops other than their assigned stops without written permission.

Yes, the kids was around that age. It's been about 12 or more years since I saw the film, but that scene stuck in my mind.
The whole point of that analogy was that there needs to be someone running the show, and sometimes the right thing to do is to be aggressive and take charge.

In regards to the incident we are debating, the bus driver was trying to exert her authority for the sake of getting her job done. That's the bottom line. I would bet money that the girl who instigated the incident has caused trouble many times before and gotten away with it.

We are going back and forth about how the situation should have been handled by the bus driver. Yet, if this girl had behaved appropriately the incident never would have occurred. She is to blame for starting the ordeal. She was not hurt by the bus driver. Of course the girl played it up for the camera. I know exactly the type of girl that bus driver was dealing with. I was once a 15-year old who had to go to school with girls like this, and let me tell you, there is nothing more vicious and troublesome than dealing with a girl of this nature. They are vindictive, underhanded, immature brats. And that is putting it mildly.




That girl was being disruptive to the point that the driver had to pull over. You know that the driver had a daughter on the bus that day. She undoubtedly wanted to get home like everyone else. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the driver ignored a lot before the girl finally went too far and the driver had to deal with her. Trust me when I say, nobody wants conflict with a girl like that. They are SCARY.



That falls in line with the analogy I gave earlier. Why does she have to coax, bargain, mediate, etc. with this girl or her mother. SIT DOWN for christ's sake, child!!!! This incident is a perfect example of why we need a zero tolerance policy on school buses. You get on the bus, sit down, behave for the ride and when you leave that bus if you want to act like the devil's spawn, more power to you!



Not every fifteen year old girl behaves that way. I certainly wouldn't have dreamed of it, and I rode a school bus. There's a time and a place to be a self-centered, attention-getting monster. She should have saved it for her mom and dad. They are the ones who deserve to deal with that behavior.



What term should I use to describe when a person must dance around and do cartwheels instead of saying what needs to be said.

Strictly speaking no one deserves it, but it's a clueless person who doesn't expect it.

Of course not every child acts that way, I'd even say most don't. But a substantial fraction do... everywhere.

I mean where are we all from, mars?

Has no one seen a bratty kid before?

Any bus driver should expect to deal with a confrontational child several times a year.. that's life.


There are a number.. mealy-mouthed, circuitous, hyper-sensitive, disingenuous.

...but I disagree with the premise. No one must do anything nor has anyone in this debate suggested as much.

We can all say what we want, but don't think were are bleeding-heart ninnies because we happen to disagree.

Take charge, like you, huh? A real go-getter!

You would bet money. Really? Does making statements like this make opinion and conjecture turn into fact? Because I watched the video too, and I have no idea what was going on before the bus stopped, so the only time I discuss it is when I'm going for coffee with the Tooth Fairy. You know the Tooth Fairy right? She lives in imagination land, it's on the same street as your knowledge of what happened before the cameras started rolling.

If the girl had behaved appropriately...so sitting on the bus was acting inappropriately? The girl didn't stop the bus. And the girl wasn't confronting the bus driver.

That's my whole point. A bus driver should not expect to deal with someone of this nature, several times a year. The fact that we accept that is the whole problem. The incident at hand is a clear indication that we are doing something wrong as parents, educators, etc. It shouldn't be this way, and we must take pro-active measures if we want to improve the situation. Blaming the bus driver for mishandling the situation is not the right approach.



Point taken, Turnea.



I am a real go-getter, take charge type of person. But we aren't debating me, are we?



I know this girl. I grew up with her (figuratively speaking). Ask any female debater and they all know what this girl is like. She is a nightmare. The incident we are discussing isn't her first. She's one of those girls who lacks the maturity, self-awareness, and dignity to even grasp what a total pain in the rear end she is.

And as far as the tooth fairy goes, she does exist. She left money under my pillow when i was a kid and she leaves money under my kids' pillows...........Next thing you'll be saying is that Santa Claus is a figment of our imaginations. Gee whiz, ye of little faith.

Well, I've seen and posted more of the video which does show that the girl was creating a disturbance - and that isn't the entire video. The dialogue also shows that this disturbance didn't start in that moment but had been ongoing. Also, this was a 15 minute incident of which you say you've seen about 10. The police say this incident started at a few minutes before 5pm. The video that we see starts a few minutes after 5 pm. The 10 seconds you refer to is 10 seconds in which the bus driver is pulling the bus over.

It's not like the camera was turned on as the bus pulled over - it's going the entire time.

And let's all be clear about something. I've been reading on this thread that the girl was not supposed to be on the bus. That's not true. This girl was supposed to be on the bus. She was sitting in a seat that was assigned to her.

Oh, thanks for the clarification entspeak- I had read so many links on this- I assumed that this was the correct info that she was on the wrong bus- so what was the driver talking about?

Well, you have to look at the question she asks in terms of the point she was making. She asks "Why are you on this bus?" She later answers her own question with "It's probably because it's the only way for you to get to and from school?" The girl replies, "No, no, no, no." Then the bus driver informs her that if she does have another way to school that she should probably take it because she doesn't seem to appreciate the bus service. Riding the bus is a privilege that can be revoked... the school is not obligated to provide that child with a ride to and from school.

I disagree on practical grounds there is no worth counter-measure we could take that would eliminate the problem.

Nostalgia is so dangerous it blinds us to the fact that that kids did act up, including on school buses, and will continue to do so probably until we are all teleported to class.

Because some people of all ages will always be jerks.

All this hand wringing about how awful here parents are will change precisely nothing.

Turnea- true that there has always been brats and such- but it has been our method of dealing with them that has changed. We do not deal with them harshly as before- and that is a problem. The reason that you heard less about brats and such is because they had to choose thier place of acting out much better- because the punishment was much stiffer, and they got little support from thier parents, if any, and those parents that did allow this were usually outcasts, and looked down upon- the great social modifier of behavior again. A person could seriously lose thier job and livelihood because of the behavior of thier kids or family.

I do not believe that this was always good- but when we got rid of that response, we didn't replace it with something healthier- and kids moved into that power vacuum quite quickly.

We did some bad things that kids do today- sure, but darned if we felt that we were going to get away with it when or if our parents found out about it! It is not that some kid wouldn't act out on the bus- perhaps they would- I never saw anything like this, on any level, though I understand it happens quite frequently today as well. But I tell you what- we may have been naughty and stupid too- but we sure as heck made sure we didn't do it in front of an adult!

I favor very, very harsh punishments for kids like this- not really for the kid acting out's benefit to be truthful- they are already a waste of time and oxygen if they are acting like that at that age- she has been doing this for some time, without a doubt, it is the other kids that see that there are very, very hard boundries for certain behaviors- and make no mistake, her behavior was quite dangerous for everyone on that bus.

Entspeak


No Entspeak you have it backwards. If a loud noise, cell phones, or kids talking and touching each other is a large distraction to a bus driver, she is a danger to all of the kids.



I'm projecting?? I'm not the one saying "She MUST have been doing something terrible for the bus driver to pull the puss over." If the bus driver believes that the girl is dismissive of her. Why pull the bus over to talk with a person that will surely dismiss her?



Several minutes?? How many minutes Entspeak?? You don't know. How long does it take to the bus over, I don't know. What we have is a group of debaters pretending that touching another students... several times is enough to distract this professional bus driver in such a way that it will endanger the kids.

And no the reports do not need by false. BUt we have no context to make a judgement about how severe the violation. And when I think about a bus driver who's response to "I'm gonna call my mom" is "I'm gonna call the police" This is a bus driver that over reacts. So I'm not oppossed to the idea that this girl touched a student, or that she may have stood up to do it. But regardless, the bus could have kept going and the students wouldn't have been one bit in danger.



No I am saying the police shoot if danger is imminent, the bus driver should pull over the danger is imminent. If the danger is not imminent the cop shouldn't shoot, do his job, file a report and let the court system do it's job. It is not the cop to mead out punishment. Same goes for the bus driver. If the danger isn't imminent then she should just do her job... drive the bus. Then make a report and file it with the school and allow those better trained to judge and mead out punishment. If the girl is sitting in her seat in her own world, then there is no imminent danger, therefore their is no neccessity.


So you took she was told repeatedly not to touch the boy in front of her and turned that into the bus had been disorderly for sevaral minutes before. Nice technique... did you learn it debatin Ted?? Stop making things up.



Authorities weren't called till after she called her mom. And she didn't lie to her mom the bus driver was touchng her. And she did a good job of not dealing with the busload of kids or the parents.



What am I supposed to do that you don't hear what I hear?? Maybe your choosing not to.Obviously you are not posting what you hear, so you aren't really saying you know what she is saying. I can continue to say what I hear and you can continue to not hear what I hear... either way how important is it to me or you that you hear it?



Oh my my, my, my, She started by doing something small several times. Then you stretched to several times to several minutes. Now you stretch several minutes to she has been causing a disturbance for SIX WHOLE MINUTES... Hey can we go for before the bus ride even started and say she was smacking people as they walked on the bus next?? I can always tell when I'm doing a good job in the debate.

DP

Yes, sometimes the right thing to do is be aggressive and take charge. That is why judgement is so important, wouldn't you agree. You shouldn't go into every situation gung ho shooting fire and brimstone on every situation unless you are George Bush. The bus driver exhibited bad judgement the issue was not that serious.


Earlier you would have bet money I didn't have kids... I'd stop gambling if I were you...

What's appropriate? left hand-left knee, right hand-right knee, back straight, eyes to the front, mother may I, yes ma'am, ol' mighty bus driver?? Entspeak, who's projecting now, eh??



No she wouldn't want to get her home as soon as possible. Every action of this bus driver points to a person who needs to be seen as in control, complete control. She stops the bus when it really isn't that necessary. She wouldn't talk to the parent on the phone. Her initial line of questioning was to show the student how important she was by embarassing the student. No she didn't care about anything but tooting her own bus horn.

Ummm... no.



Well, droop, as I stated previously, if reports by the police are to be believed, the incident started at 4:57. What does the timestamp say on the video, droop? The reports say the incident occurs over 15 minutes. How long is the video you saw? 10 minutes? Samantha was off the bus at the end of the video. So, there must be more on the front end, droop. In fact, the video I linked to had more on the front end. See, simple observational skills prove to be educational.



Well, as you say, you have no context on which to make that determination, right? Before the student was completely compliant... now you're saying that the bus could've kept going regardless of how chaotic the child might've been. Did you know that the person she was touching was shouting at her to stop touching him? How could you, you can't see the video.





Oh, droop, no need to make things up. If there is an element of disorder in a situation, the situation can't be considered orderly, can it? No.



No, she lied about how the situation started.



Well, she didn't say it, droop.



I'm sorry, droop, you're failure to recognize that someone can actually do something several times over the course of several minutes is your failure and not a flaw in my argument. And I never stated that she was performing a repeating action without stopping for an entire six minutes. It seems that since you no longer have an argument, you are attempting to attack my argument by claiming inconsistency where none exists.

To break it down for you: a child can cause a disturbance over a period of six minutes (which could be considered several) by doing something repeatedly over the course of that time period.

Entspeak


There is a difference between being observational and being clairvoyant, and you're not doing too well at either. Till we see what is on that video we don't know what te disturbance, the severity of the disturbance, the length of the disturbact, the amount of times the disturbance occurred, all we know is what we saw.



That's right I don't know this, which student screamed, were they playing or serious... I have no clue what you are talking about. And my argument is simple the bus could have kept going because the child was not being chaotic, and the bus driver is not trained or equipped to deal with these issues as we saw. Therefore, unless the child is running up and down the aisle smacking kids or something that can seriously jeopardize the well being of te other students allow someone who is trained and equipped to handle this situation.



uhh yeah!! If you have a ten seconds of disorder in 6 minutes, you can't conclude you had six minutes of disorder. Conversely, if you have order at the time the bus is getting pulled over, then the bus driver pulled over an orderly bus, and created disorder, because orderly would have been to continue to drive the orderly bus and drop off the passengers in an orderly fashion, and report any infractions to proper authority. If she had a brain.



What was the lie??

What did she say



I failed to recognize nothing, i caught you doing your Jedi mind trick and called you on it... now you have to back track. Do what you gotta do, playa!! Your exact words were, "The student has been causing a disturbance for six minutes..." A disturbance... for 6 minutes.... gotcha!!