Full Version: Student and Bus Driver Brawl
1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
Right? It's absolutely necessary.
Having been a school employee for 34 years, I have great respect for school bus drivers.The job entails more than just driving a bus. The driver is the first school employee to see a student in the morning and the last in the afternoon. Between their morning and afternoon runs they do field trips and sometimes athletic events at night.
Special education bus drivers have extra duties. They deliver notes to and from parents, unload whellchairs, etc.Turnea mentioned CPR. Fort Worth trains its drivers in this.
It seems rather obvious to me that one cannot safely operate a vehicle and deal with disrptive students, who at times gang up if adult must maintain order. Although Fort Worth ISD has many daults, it did provide assistants, at least on some special education buses.
I think part of the solution is to have a second adult on all school buses. That would cost money, and god forbid we'd raise taxes to pay for it.
Right? It's absolutely necessary.
Having been a school employee for 34 years, I have great respect for school bus drivers.The job entails more than just driving a bus. The driver is the first school employee to see a student in the morning and the last in the afternoon. Between their morning and afternoon runs they do field trips and sometimes athletic events at night.
Special education bus drivers have extra duties. They deliver notes to and from parents, unload whellchairs, etc.Turnea mentioned CPR. Fort Worth trains its drivers in this.
It seems rather obvious to me that one cannot safely operate a vehicle and deal with disrptive students, who at times gang up if adult must maintain order. Although Fort Worth ISD has many daults, it did provide assistants, at least on some special education buses.
I think part of the solution is to have a second adult on all school buses. That would cost money, and god forbid we'd raise taxes to pay for it.
QUOTE(BoF @ Feb 25 2008, 07:03 PM) 
I think part of the solution is to have a second adult on all school buses. That would cost money, and god forbid we'd raise taxes to pay for it.
You know what would be cheaper? Raising respectful children.
True Story:
Probably 1982 or so <wavy fade out>
The last 2 rows of the school busses for St John The Baptist are removed. It never makes any sense to me but apparently my route has the football and hockey bus so that's where all the equipment goes. The trip from East Islip to Lake Ronkonkoma takes about an hour and ten minutes what with all the stops and Long Island traffic, plus Sunrise Highway is being torn to shreds and rebuilt... anyway... this kid Ed has been riding me for the entire school year. He's a moron. I tell him almost everyday, despite the fact that you out weigh me by sixty pounds I will seriously kill you in a fist fight, you have to stop this. So it's like, I dunno, mid March and I am about done with this kid. I am sitting up front when Ed punches me in the head. I complain to the bus driver that he needs to do something. He replies, "It's your fight." I explain that I am going to hurt this kid badly if he doesn't step in to stop this fight. "Not my problem." When the ambulance workers took Ed off the bus on Portion Road the bus driver stated he had no idea what happened to him.
That's who is driving the bus not trained social workers with certificates in youth issues.
Oh and Ed's jaw wasn't broken, he was just being a baby.
Am I the only one thinking that this little episode with the cell-phone-harpy is an improvement over the flashback? 
I mean really this is not a past vs. future issue, apparently the past was a recipe for even greater chaos.
We can talk about raising respectful kids all we want, but some of them are going to be brats.
Always have been, always will be . The question is what are we going to do about it?
I mean really this is not a past vs. future issue, apparently the past was a recipe for even greater chaos.
We can talk about raising respectful kids all we want, but some of them are going to be brats.
Always have been, always will be . The question is what are we going to do about it?
QUOTE(azwhitewolf @ Feb 23 2008, 09:23 PM)
PHOENIX — Charges may be forthcoming after a fight involving a Higley Unified School District bus driver and three teenagers that was captured on a security video, authorities said.
Gilbert police released a copy of a district videotape Thursday that shows a Williams Field High School girl and bus driver Kim Sullivan in a disagreement last Friday that escalates over the course of 15 minutes.
The tape shows both are verbally combative with each other.
Later, Sullivan takes the girl's cell phone and calls for security and a student on the bus called 911 after the bus had stopped and the shoving match began, the video shows.
Police are investigating three teens and Sullivan, 54, in connection with the situation.
Higley officials have sent a letter home to parents saying they are conducting their own investigation to determine what disciplinary measures to take.
SOURCE
WATCH THE VIDEO
Questions for Debate:
1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
Yes, IMO she must have the right to pull over and attempt to settle the students down.
2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
After carefully viewing the video twice my feeling is that since the Bus Driver is the ADULT in this situation she could have successfully controlled the situation with the spoken word.
ESCALATION is the key word here. The very beginning of the video shows the kids were seated and pretty controlled compared to what I expected before I watched the video. Being a bus driver for teenagers is a tough job, as I bet you'll all agree. I would never take a job like that unless I really new I could control my temper well. It quickly became a "no win" situation once the students began standing and throwing insults. I'm really surprised that bad stuff like this doesn't happen more often in more school districts. Let's face it, Bus Drivers are not given advanced training in anything other than the driver's manual; we really expect a lot out of them for what they're paid and the responsibility they have. Too bad a few of those students won't be taken "out to the woodshed" by their dads! IMO they are badly in need of that particular punishment.
3. Who should be punished, and why? IMO the parents need to punish their own kids, but I'll bet they are all defending them instead. I would hope that lawsuits will not be filed but in this day and age that's probably too much to hope for.
Gilbert police released a copy of a district videotape Thursday that shows a Williams Field High School girl and bus driver Kim Sullivan in a disagreement last Friday that escalates over the course of 15 minutes.
The tape shows both are verbally combative with each other.
Later, Sullivan takes the girl's cell phone and calls for security and a student on the bus called 911 after the bus had stopped and the shoving match began, the video shows.
Police are investigating three teens and Sullivan, 54, in connection with the situation.
Higley officials have sent a letter home to parents saying they are conducting their own investigation to determine what disciplinary measures to take.
SOURCE
WATCH THE VIDEO
Questions for Debate:
1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
Yes, IMO she must have the right to pull over and attempt to settle the students down.
2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
After carefully viewing the video twice my feeling is that since the Bus Driver is the ADULT in this situation she could have successfully controlled the situation with the spoken word.
ESCALATION is the key word here. The very beginning of the video shows the kids were seated and pretty controlled compared to what I expected before I watched the video. Being a bus driver for teenagers is a tough job, as I bet you'll all agree. I would never take a job like that unless I really new I could control my temper well. It quickly became a "no win" situation once the students began standing and throwing insults. I'm really surprised that bad stuff like this doesn't happen more often in more school districts. Let's face it, Bus Drivers are not given advanced training in anything other than the driver's manual; we really expect a lot out of them for what they're paid and the responsibility they have. Too bad a few of those students won't be taken "out to the woodshed" by their dads! IMO they are badly in need of that particular punishment.
3. Who should be punished, and why? IMO the parents need to punish their own kids, but I'll bet they are all defending them instead. I would hope that lawsuits will not be filed but in this day and age that's probably too much to hope for.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 25 2008, 07:45 PM)
QUOTE(BoF @ Feb 25 2008, 07:03 PM)
I think part of the solution is to have a second adult on all school buses. That would cost money, and god forbid we'd raise taxes to pay for it.
You know what would be cheaper? Raising respectful children.
However true that might be, it doesn't seem to be happening. What then is plan B
You make my point by emphasizing cheaper. We certainly wouldn't want to do anything that might raise taxes.
QUOTE(BoF @ Feb 25 2008, 09:31 PM)
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 25 2008, 07:45 PM)
QUOTE(BoF @ Feb 25 2008, 07:03 PM)
I think part of the solution is to have a second adult on all school buses. That would cost money, and god forbid we'd raise taxes to pay for it.
You know what would be cheaper? Raising respectful children.
However true that might be, it doesn't seem to be happening. What then is plan B
You make my point by emphasizing cheaper. We certainly wouldn't want to do anything that might raise taxes.
No we would not. Do you have any idea what I'm paying in property taxes? Trust me when I tell you it's more than my share. I don't want to pay for a security guard on my kid's bus. It's unnecessary. We got by fine without them before. One brat on a video with a school bus driver who's slightly cracked doesn't mean we need to raise taxes. Sheesh.
Well BA- here is the deal- it is going to be more expensive, either way, unless there is some legislative or city law for criminal conduct for the "cell phone harpy" (I like that one 
) - why you ask> let's see- how many lawsuits are going to be settled by the school district by parents that want to teach the school district a financial lesson for exposing thier children to this crap? Oh yeah, not to mention all the lawyers that will have a new case, full time, dealing with the criminal fall out alone. I am sure the bus driver will sue and win against the district as well- after all, she called for backup it seems.
We had a completely different situation, in this case, a forgetfull bus driver that didnt' follow policy on "roll call"- and she left a disabled kid on the bus. Well, of course, parents sued- and bussing budget had to be increased, then, couple fights on bus, bus driver couldn't do it by themselves- new ordinances and policies changed, making kid pretty much responsible from the time they don't do what and go where they are told- they are simply permanently expelled, and usually fined, and of course- jailed if parents don't pay fine.
But it still costs us more money now, with two adults per bus, sometimes three if there is a problem area that needs to be addressed.
Also, we had a parent attack a teacher over her "precious child's" continued detentions for various stupidities. Her fat mama decided to attack the teacher for "being unfair to her child"- she got 18 months for felony assault, and her kid is in a long term residential program, and parental rights terminated.
That is what should have happened here, with the threat of termination of parental rights if the "cell phone harpy" doesn't enter a residential treatment program and get her high school diploma- she will get it by way of the juvenile detention until she gets her high school diploma- jail style.
And the bus driver should get full retirement, and this should be billed to the parents. But that is probably asking too much.
) - why you ask> let's see- how many lawsuits are going to be settled by the school district by parents that want to teach the school district a financial lesson for exposing thier children to this crap? Oh yeah, not to mention all the lawyers that will have a new case, full time, dealing with the criminal fall out alone. I am sure the bus driver will sue and win against the district as well- after all, she called for backup it seems. We had a completely different situation, in this case, a forgetfull bus driver that didnt' follow policy on "roll call"- and she left a disabled kid on the bus. Well, of course, parents sued- and bussing budget had to be increased, then, couple fights on bus, bus driver couldn't do it by themselves- new ordinances and policies changed, making kid pretty much responsible from the time they don't do what and go where they are told- they are simply permanently expelled, and usually fined, and of course- jailed if parents don't pay fine.
But it still costs us more money now, with two adults per bus, sometimes three if there is a problem area that needs to be addressed.
Also, we had a parent attack a teacher over her "precious child's" continued detentions for various stupidities. Her fat mama decided to attack the teacher for "being unfair to her child"- she got 18 months for felony assault, and her kid is in a long term residential program, and parental rights terminated.
That is what should have happened here, with the threat of termination of parental rights if the "cell phone harpy" doesn't enter a residential treatment program and get her high school diploma- she will get it by way of the juvenile detention until she gets her high school diploma- jail style.
And the bus driver should get full retirement, and this should be billed to the parents. But that is probably asking too much.
Sorry folks, but the bus driver made a simple situation worse.
Arizona Republic
There you have it folks, this out of control girl who had to be manhandled first, refused to speak to the driver. Oh wow, that would be difficult to manage. Yep, continuing to drive and having an administrator greet the squatter would be just something we couldn't do, no, can't have that. That would mean the kids would get there on time and princess would then be the administrator's problem.
Once again, if you work with kids, you know the dumbest thing to do is to back a kid into a corner needlessly.
Lecture them if you will, but don't do it in front of other kids, which is another dumb thing this lady did. The girl wasn't out of control, she wasn't a threat to other students, and she was hardly creating chaos on the bus. If she's talking inappropriately, encourage her to stop and let her mouth be the evidence against her when the administration interviews the kids on the bus regarding your(thebus driver's) actions and the kid.
Also, why does party politics have to be interjected here? Comments about "the party of tolerance" have no bearing on this issue.
QUOTE
The ride started with the 15-year-old girl pretending not to be on the list of authorized passengers. Then she and Sullivan were both verbally combative. The situation intensified after Sullivan pulled the bus over and asked the 15-year-old, "Why are you on this bus?" and suggested she "find another way" to get to and from school.
Arizona Republic
There you have it folks, this out of control girl who had to be manhandled first, refused to speak to the driver.
Oh wow, that would be difficult to manage. Yep, continuing to drive and having an administrator greet the squatter would be just something we couldn't do, no, can't have that. That would mean the kids would get there on time and princess would then be the administrator's problem. Once again, if you work with kids, you know the dumbest thing to do is to back a kid into a corner needlessly.
Lecture them if you will, but don't do it in front of other kids, which is another dumb thing this lady did. The girl wasn't out of control, she wasn't a threat to other students, and she was hardly creating chaos on the bus. If she's talking inappropriately, encourage her to stop and let her mouth be the evidence against her when the administration interviews the kids on the bus regarding your(thebus driver's) actions and the kid. Also, why does party politics have to be interjected here? Comments about "the party of tolerance" have no bearing on this issue.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Feb 26 2008, 07:01 AM)
Sorry folks, but the bus driver made a simple situation worse.
Arizona Republic
There you have it folks, this out of control girl who had to be manhandled first, refused to speak to the driver. Oh wow, that would be difficult to manage. Yep, continuing to drive and having an administrator greet the squatter would be just something we couldn't do, no, can't have that. That would mean the kids would get there on time and princess would then be the administrator's problem.
QUOTE
The ride started with the 15-year-old girl pretending not to be on the list of authorized passengers. Then she and Sullivan were both verbally combative. The situation intensified after Sullivan pulled the bus over and asked the 15-year-old, "Why are you on this bus?" and suggested she "find another way" to get to and from school.
Arizona Republic
There you have it folks, this out of control girl who had to be manhandled first, refused to speak to the driver.
Oh wow, that would be difficult to manage. Yep, continuing to drive and having an administrator greet the squatter would be just something we couldn't do, no, can't have that. That would mean the kids would get there on time and princess would then be the administrator's problem. The bus driver is only authorized to transport passengers within her zone. I'm sure she doesn't keep a list of authorized passengers, to check off every time a student rides that bus, but if this girl did not belong on the bus that's actually a rather serious issue. The school bus isn't a cab service like other forms of public transportation would be.
In fact, the driver is culpable if she is transporting a student who doesn't belong there. The bus driver was within her rights to confront the student, and the student was not within her rights to demand to get off of the bus by the side of the road. Obviously the driver couldn't know beforehand that the student would respond by going ballistic, jump out of her seat and demand to get off.
Just out of curiosity, how do you suppose the driver was going to keep the "squatter" on the bus to wait for the admins while letting the other students off and on at stops? Clearly keeping her on the bus for just one, undesignated stop was a wee bit problematic.
Why is the 15 year old getting such a pass on this board?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Feb 26 2008, 07:57 AM)
The bus driver is only authorized to transport passengers within her zone. I'm sure she doesn't keep a list of authorized passengers, to check off every time a student rides that bus, but if this girl did not belong on the bus that's actually a rather serious issue. The school bus isn't a cab service like other forms of public transportation would be.
In fact, the driver is culpable if she is transporting a student who doesn't belong there. The bus driver was within her rights to confront the student, and the student was not within her rights to demand to get off of the bus by the side of the road. Obviously the driver couldn't know beforehand that the student would respond by going ballistic, jump out of her seat and demand to get off.
In fact, the driver is culpable if she is transporting a student who doesn't belong there. The bus driver was within her rights to confront the student, and the student was not within her rights to demand to get off of the bus by the side of the road. Obviously the driver couldn't know beforehand that the student would respond by going ballistic, jump out of her seat and demand to get off.
This is not a trivial point. In fact, it's a can of worms. The student claims to be unauthorized, but the driver can't let a kid off the bus. So, she's stuck with a kid that doesn't belong on the bus.
Everybody keeps minimizing the importance of this conduct, but why do the parents of the rest of the kids on the bus have to deal with this 15 year old's issues regardless of what they are? The more I learn about this, the more I believe that I would have gone ballistic if my 8 year old daughter was on this bus. I don't give a crap how much levity you are willing to give the 15 year old that clearly instigated the situation, but I will do serious physical damage to anyone that puts my daughter's safety at risk when they are charged with that safety. I have zero tolerance for this. You may have some leeway in terms of how your kid is protected, but don't force that on parents like me who don't.
I don't care if that bus driver told my kid to kiss her butt out of nowhere. I would not tolerate my daughter having any confrontation with any adult no matter who it is. That's MY job - not hers. Her job is to drink a nice steaming hot cup of STFU and turn the situation over to me. I'll fix it. That's the job of the parents.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Feb 26 2008, 06:04 AM)
I don't care if that bus driver told my kid to kiss her butt out of nowhere. I would not tolerate my daughter having any confrontation with any adult no matter who it is. That's MY job - not hers. Her job is to drink a nice steaming hot cup of STFU and turn the situation over to me. I'll fix it. That's the job of the parents.
But, DR, you are missing the obvious fact that the parent of the teenage girl who started the incident clearly dropped the ball on parenthood way before the incident took place. We cannot continue to placate the bad behavior of youth if we want them to grow up to be any better as adults.
The girl's parents should be charged and forced into parenting classes.
Verbally combative? Azww? C'mon if that is verbally combative than my momma tucking me at night and kissing me on the head is verbally combative. Your definition of violent should be replaced with the word "tardy". This video reminds me of the Cheech and Chong skit where the teacher goes class?, classss! .......shut-up!.
1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
The driver does have a right because if control is not regained any loss of control would be liability to the bus company. I was privy to this stunt many times in highschool and on public buses where people are jostling between old ladies. If I actually kept a diary of incidents involved I'd have something the width of a Andy Warhol book. Further we had almost but not quite gangs that would follow the offending kid off the bus and demand retribution as soon as the kid exited the bus. This tit for tat persisted for years. Follow up discussions we be blow-off moments where teachers would flip over empty desks thereby breaking wooden legs or having metal desks clank while paper fluttered everywhere. The point is the follow-ups were considerably more violent and out of control than the incident in question and this video barely qualifies as an "incident".
2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
If the kid was not supposed to be on the bus to begin with I can understand the actions of the bus driver to detain her. Still on a school bus the driver usually recognizes every kid. This girl stood out. Why she was let on the bus will be addressed by her employer. However, the snatching of the phone while understandable will go down as a strike on her record given the shoddy pieces of paper we call assault laws. Upon reflection I think the best coarse was to simply quote from the driver's manual thereby declaring what she is and is not allowed to do - well assuming the driver could memorize bits of it. This would accomplish two things: one, it would establish a firm tone (something that was pretty meak on the part of the bus driver) and second, quoting would establish an heir of authourity by officially declaring what are your rights and what are hers. A good memory is a great arbiter.
3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?
The driver should not have escalated by snatching the phone. The daughter who jumped in (while absolutely hilliarious and worthy of an oscar) should be disciplined. Still, defending your mother is not a bad thing so the parent-daughter talk would simply be a sit down discussing restraint and nothing more. I think everyone involved should review the video, this had me laughing for 15 minutes straight and once all offending parties view would probably have a laugh, I know I would. I'm nominating this one for America's Funniest Home Videos.
1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
The driver does have a right because if control is not regained any loss of control would be liability to the bus company. I was privy to this stunt many times in highschool and on public buses where people are jostling between old ladies. If I actually kept a diary of incidents involved I'd have something the width of a Andy Warhol book. Further we had almost but not quite gangs that would follow the offending kid off the bus and demand retribution as soon as the kid exited the bus. This tit for tat persisted for years. Follow up discussions we be blow-off moments where teachers would flip over empty desks thereby breaking wooden legs or having metal desks clank while paper fluttered everywhere. The point is the follow-ups were considerably more violent and out of control than the incident in question and this video barely qualifies as an "incident".
2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
If the kid was not supposed to be on the bus to begin with I can understand the actions of the bus driver to detain her. Still on a school bus the driver usually recognizes every kid. This girl stood out. Why she was let on the bus will be addressed by her employer. However, the snatching of the phone while understandable will go down as a strike on her record given the shoddy pieces of paper we call assault laws. Upon reflection I think the best coarse was to simply quote from the driver's manual thereby declaring what she is and is not allowed to do - well assuming the driver could memorize bits of it. This would accomplish two things: one, it would establish a firm tone (something that was pretty meak on the part of the bus driver) and second, quoting would establish an heir of authourity by officially declaring what are your rights and what are hers. A good memory is a great arbiter.
3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?
The driver should not have escalated by snatching the phone. The daughter who jumped in (while absolutely hilliarious and worthy of an oscar) should be disciplined. Still, defending your mother is not a bad thing so the parent-daughter talk would simply be a sit down discussing restraint and nothing more. I think everyone involved should review the video, this had me laughing for 15 minutes straight and once all offending parties view would probably have a laugh, I know I would. I'm nominating this one for America's Funniest Home Videos.
BA
No one is giving the kid a pass. No one is saying she is acting appropriately. What we or at least me, are saying is the adult in the situation acted completely inappropriate and the child is acting reactionary to the childish actions of the adult on a power trip. Others are giving the pass.
And in this debate a ew of you are not addressing this situation and are not addressing the points made. Mainly, that the inappropriate actions of the adult CAUSE the unsafe environment. You can start addressing these points or just keep feeding off each other. Your choice.
Mrs P
Maybe things have changed... but at the High School level this was not a big deal. Riding on a bus to go visit a freind house after school, or getting on the bus from a freinds house to get to school was not a big deal. But say it is.... "serious issue".
If it is a serious issue why is the bus driver not doing her job? Are busses made so different now a days?? Can you not only get up ONE person at a time? If the bus driver thought it a serious issue, she should observe the students as they come on. She should stand up take a visual survey of the students before she drives off... And before pulling off from the school you ask the passenger to get off, if they don't belong.
You DO NOT pull over a bus mid-route so you can go on some power tripping rant or try to embarrass a student. That is not her place.
You see, that is an issue... one of you address it, please. Again it points to the cause of this situation being the fault of the bus driver.
Mrs P if it is such a big deal why not confront the child before she got on the bus. If it is such a big deal why not just tell the student not to get on the bus again while still driving?? If it is such a big deal why are you asking the student to explain to the rest of the bus why she is on??
And add to that if you LISTEN it seems like the point she is making is... "you ride this bus. because you need it, and subsequently, you need me." Inappropriate adult behavior.
I really don't know, so is it out there somewhere that is what prompted the bus driver or is just this conjecture on your point from your take on the video??
The administrators were on their way before she pulled over the bus?? Are you sure?? If that is the case, it makes even less sense for her to get up and say anything. Just pull over and wait for the adminstrators to do their job.. right?? Again inappropriate behavior by the adult.
DR
The real question is why you are ignoring the fact that the bus drivers actions caused all of this.
You seem to give a lot of leeway to the adult in the situation. In fact you act like she really had some good reason to pull the bus over other than to thump her chest.
Oh turn it over to you, huh. You mean like when the child handed the phone to the adult bus driver with her MOTHER on the phone. "Here talk to my mom" but instead the bus driver throws the phone, with the PARENT on, to the ground. You mean handle it like that DR? Oh what about the parent banging on the door outside.. like that DR. Before you go on another rant about what a child is supposed to do and not do, address that issue.
You guys are not addressing any issues only making excuses of why this adult was completely incompetent and out of control. Don't keep saying she is the adult... RECOGNIZE she IS the adult. Pushing, hitting, cussing, throwing things on the ground that is behavior of a child.
QUOTE
Why is the 15 year old getting such a pass on this board?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
No one is giving the kid a pass. No one is saying she is acting appropriately. What we or at least me, are saying is the adult in the situation acted completely inappropriate and the child is acting reactionary to the childish actions of the adult on a power trip. Others are giving the pass.
And in this debate a ew of you are not addressing this situation and are not addressing the points made. Mainly, that the inappropriate actions of the adult CAUSE the unsafe environment. You can start addressing these points or just keep feeding off each other. Your choice.
Mrs P
QUOTE
The bus driver is only authorized to transport passengers within her zone. I'm sure she doesn't keep a list of authorized passengers, to check off every time a student rides that bus, but if this girl did not belong on the bus that's actually a rather serious issue. The school bus isn't a cab service like other forms of public transportation would be.
In fact, the driver is culpable if she is transporting a student who doesn't belong there. The bus driver was within her rights to confront the student, and the student was not within her rights to demand to get off of the bus by the side of the road. Obviously the driver couldn't know beforehand that the student would respond by going ballistic, jump out of her seat and demand to get off.
In fact, the driver is culpable if she is transporting a student who doesn't belong there. The bus driver was within her rights to confront the student, and the student was not within her rights to demand to get off of the bus by the side of the road. Obviously the driver couldn't know beforehand that the student would respond by going ballistic, jump out of her seat and demand to get off.
Maybe things have changed... but at the High School level this was not a big deal. Riding on a bus to go visit a freind house after school, or getting on the bus from a freinds house to get to school was not a big deal. But say it is.... "serious issue".
If it is a serious issue why is the bus driver not doing her job? Are busses made so different now a days?? Can you not only get up ONE person at a time? If the bus driver thought it a serious issue, she should observe the students as they come on. She should stand up take a visual survey of the students before she drives off... And before pulling off from the school you ask the passenger to get off, if they don't belong.
You DO NOT pull over a bus mid-route so you can go on some power tripping rant or try to embarrass a student. That is not her place.
You see, that is an issue... one of you address it, please. Again it points to the cause of this situation being the fault of the bus driver.
QUOTE
In fact, the driver is culpable if she is transporting a student who doesn't belong there. The bus driver was within her rights to confront the student, and the student was not within her rights to demand to get off of the bus by the side of the road. Obviously the driver couldn't know beforehand that the student would respond by going ballistic, jump out of her seat and demand to get off.
Mrs P if it is such a big deal why not confront the child before she got on the bus. If it is such a big deal why not just tell the student not to get on the bus again while still driving?? If it is such a big deal why are you asking the student to explain to the rest of the bus why she is on??
And add to that if you LISTEN it seems like the point she is making is... "you ride this bus. because you need it, and subsequently, you need me." Inappropriate adult behavior.
I really don't know, so is it out there somewhere that is what prompted the bus driver or is just this conjecture on your point from your take on the video??
QUOTE
Just out of curiosity, how do you suppose the driver was going to keep the "squatter" on the bus to wait for the admins while letting the other students off and on at stops? Clearly keeping her on the bus for just one, undesignated stop was a wee bit problematic.
The administrators were on their way before she pulled over the bus?? Are you sure?? If that is the case, it makes even less sense for her to get up and say anything. Just pull over and wait for the adminstrators to do their job.. right?? Again inappropriate behavior by the adult.
DR
QUOTE
Everybody keeps minimizing the importance of this conduct, but why do the parents of the rest of the kids on the bus have to deal with this 15 year old's issues regardless of what they are?
The real question is why you are ignoring the fact that the bus drivers actions caused all of this.
QUOTE
The more I learn about this, the more I believe that I would have gone ballistic if my 8 year old daughter was on this bus. I don't give a crap how much levity you are willing to give the 15 year old that clearly instigated the situation, but I will do serious physical damage to anyone that puts my daughter's safety at risk when they are charged with that safety. I have zero tolerance for this. You may have some leeway in terms of how your kid is protected, but don't force that on parents like me who don't.
You seem to give a lot of leeway to the adult in the situation. In fact you act like she really had some good reason to pull the bus over other than to thump her chest.
QUOTE
I don't care if that bus driver told my kid to kiss her butt out of nowhere. I would not tolerate my daughter having any confrontation with any adult no matter who it is. That's MY job - not hers. Her job is to drink a nice steaming hot cup of STFU and turn the situation over to me. I'll fix it. That's the job of the parents.
Oh turn it over to you, huh. You mean like when the child handed the phone to the adult bus driver with her MOTHER on the phone. "Here talk to my mom" but instead the bus driver throws the phone, with the PARENT on, to the ground. You mean handle it like that DR? Oh what about the parent banging on the door outside.. like that DR. Before you go on another rant about what a child is supposed to do and not do, address that issue.
You guys are not addressing any issues only making excuses of why this adult was completely incompetent and out of control. Don't keep saying she is the adult... RECOGNIZE she IS the adult. Pushing, hitting, cussing, throwing things on the ground that is behavior of a child.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 26 2008, 05:18 AM)
Why is the 15 year old getting such a pass on this board?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
Oh, you must have missed where I said drivers should be armed and blow away any pesky students. Sort of fits your little homily of beating up a fellow student, n'est ce pas?
No one is saying the teenager's behavior was "OK". That's your violent view clouding your eyesight. No adult should have to "beat up" a student to maintain control of a situation. In the outside world, if an adult whooped on a kid who mouthed off at him/her, assault charges would be filed, and rightfully so, (of course,the same would be true if the situation were reversed). The driver is an ADULT, an authority figure, AND a representative of the school district in which she works, and beating up a student is NOT acceptable behavior. Neither is the kid's behavior, and from what I understand, she has been suspended.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 26 2008, 06:18 AM)
Why is the 15 year old getting such a pass on this board?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
This is really confusing. Are some of you saying we must not deal with children who behave like this? Are you saying this sort of behavior is expected from a 15 year old? Are you saying it's OK? How has the whole of the culpability been heaped upon the bus driver?
To quote two of the participants in this brawl..."SERIOUSLY"?
No one is giving the kid a pass. Many people, however, ARE giving the bus driver a pass and promoting violence against obnoxious kids. This girl was REACTING to the bus driver. There was nothing the kid did prior to being confronted by the bus driver that was anything but maybe bratty and obnoxious, but SHE was not the instigator of the confrontation. No one in this thread has said the girl had no responsibility in this issue. No one. But there are a lot of people (most, in fact) who have said the bus driver was within her rights to shove, manhandle, and start a fist fight with the student.
Frankly, I'd much rather have my daughter on a bus with a bratty kid than with a bus driver who likes to pick fights with bratty kids. Call me crazy.
Let me make this perfectly clear. THE GIRL IS GUILTY, TOO. She needs to learn about humility and a whole lot about respect and following directions. But that does NOT excuse the bus driver's actions and it really disturbs me that people are so apologetic and supportive of the bus driver's actions.
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Feb 26 2008, 10:55 AM)
Oh, you must have missed where I said drivers should be armed and blow away any pesky students. Sort of fits your little homily of beating up a fellow student, n'est ce pas?
See this is where I just don't "get it".
What do you after you've been punched in the back of the head AND you've asked for help? I take care of things. Whatever you do is fine. I take care of it.
So shifting back to the bus driver who, if you simply read the thread, I have stated isn't exactly a pillar of self restraint was put in a position where she thought she needed to pull the bus over an deal with. This isn't some "green" driver either.
I guess what's happening here is that for some of you the second there's physical contact all bets are off and the child must be protected.
I can't help but think that if this girl had sat down, shut up and waited until she got home to report this incident the bus driver would be one we'd ALL be railing against. See for me the moment you become the "cell phone harpy" all bets are of and you lose.
Trouble said:
Trouble...
I haven't posted a written reply yet. I merely posted the topic and a snippet of the article where "verbally combative" was written by the reporter. I didn't write the article. I needed a source.
I'm sorry the reporter sucks and the news editor is stupid. But I didn't write it.
May I direct you to the Associated Press' Feedback Page, so that you may give them a piece of your mind?
I'll jump in and throw my opinion on the board later tonite. I held off on voting and posting so as not to alter the natural discussion.
Then you can take me to the cleaners.
QUOTE
Verbally combative? Azww? C'mon if that is verbally combative than my momma tucking me at night and kissing me on the head is verbally combative. Your definition of violent should be replaced with the word "tardy". This video reminds me of the Cheech and Chong skit where the teacher goes class?, classss! .......shut-up!.
Trouble...
I haven't posted a written reply yet. I merely posted the topic and a snippet of the article where "verbally combative" was written by the reporter. I didn't write the article. I needed a source.
I'm sorry the reporter sucks and the news editor is stupid. But I didn't write it.
May I direct you to the Associated Press' Feedback Page, so that you may give them a piece of your mind?
I'll jump in and throw my opinion on the board later tonite. I held off on voting and posting so as not to alter the natural discussion.
Then you can take me to the cleaners.
Whoops. I thought you took their stance. Why do I keep hearing the old country song "she broke my heart so I broke her jaw" in my head after reading that article? Stupid humans.
No worries.
I did the same thing to Droop224 a few weeks back.
I did the same thing to Droop224 a few weeks back.
QUOTE
Why is the 15 year old getting such a pass on this board?
What evidence is there that suggests she is? Who says she shouldn't be punished? What quotes can you provide to prove that?
Okay, I said I would respond tonight, so here it is.
I think thought they do.
I personally see a lot of generational differences here.
The bus driver is stubbornly expecting respect that she likely had to give when she was a kid and becomes extremely frustrated when she no only doesn't get it, but is disrespected in front of other students. Not excusing the driver, but I think the older you get, the more respect you realize you're not going to ever get that was expected from you. Different people deal with that inequality different ways, and this woman probably reached the end of her rope.
The teenager is well versed on her rights, and is quick to point out that she is "the protected", and in turn throws that advantage at every turn to the very person who is charged with her protection. Ironic. I'm reminded of the little scrawny kid who insults the bully, and then whines that "I was singled out because I'm small". In this case, "I just turned 15, so she shouldn't be distracted by me". "It's the bus driver."
Only after seeing Part 1 of the student's interview do we get a further glimpse into the situation. Part 2 is interesting because the student herself tells us that the first four rows in the bus are for children who have been in trouble before, and are under more scrutiny - and thus - you'd think would suggest that perhaps she is aware that her behavior in the past has caused her to address it. Whatever lesson was taught wasn't learned.
I think the lesson is that problem child - whether in the classroom or not - needs to find their own transportation to school. Perhaps mom and dad can be an influence if they have to be late to work for a week in order to get their kids to school on time. Or perhaps the kids will get the lesson when mom or dad, who refuse to be late for THEIR job, drop the kid off very very early at school, and then have to wait until someone can get around to picking them up.
I think the bus driver should be given a warning. Unfortunately, she is going to be charged with a crime. I guess the oldschool respect side of me is a little sorry that the 15 year old screech owl is going to be punished less than the bus driver who should have received both compliance and respect for a verbal request (or demand!), and got neither.
Somewhere, adults are not only not allowed to tell kids what to do, but we also need to explain why and how when we ask them permission to do something they're already supposed to do, and do it politely - with a cherry on top.
Here's the rub. The kids then go through a process that looks like this:
1. Is it legal? Or illegal? (Not the kid, the "other" person)
2. Can they force me?
3. What are the consequences?
4. Do I feel like it?
5. What if I don't?
6. Can I spin this to mom and dad?
7. Is it my fault?
8. Is everyone else being treated fairly?
9. Was I treated with the utmost respect?
10. Am I even REMOTELY a victim of SOMETHING throughout ANY of this situation?
.... and after all those criteria are considered, the kid who knows the boundaries will make the most self-serving decision, because the excuse resides in one of the 10 criteria listed above.
"Sit down and shut up" doesn't need a freaking thought process. Yet, try telling a kid to do that and see what you get. This article details it quite nicely.
To me, that sends a message that if you're a bus driver, you better be concerned about the road, and scared of the kids. The kid was on the bus with nobody who was going to deliver any form of swift justice, and for the time being, everyone recognized the anarchy. The bus really did belong to the kids. Imagine if a teacher took her phone and put it in his desk in a classroom setting. Would she reach, punch and shove him or her to get it out of the desk like she did to the bus driver for it being on the dashboard? I don't think so.
That's the precident that scares me.
This 15 year old is playing the game exactly the right way. She knows what really happened and what could be seen, and she knew to accuse the bus driver of grabbing her breasts (which, co-incidentally, I don't believe - I can't imagine if the bus driver had been a man!), and verbally interpreted every accusation for the camera. If it was a push, it was a hit. If it was a gentle anything, it became a violent something else. And in our "precious snowflake" world of overprotective, yet void-of-lessons parents, we're teaching the worst lesson of all: 'No matter what we do, if someone else was worse, then it's justified".
I don't care that Samantha will grow up someday and have a kid that disrespects her. That's almost guaranteed. Based on the interview, she didn't learn a thing.
The fact that that kid will be a major sensitive, whiny crybaby for the rest of society to tolerate is the real tragedy.
I have three answers.
One is simple. No busses. Drive, walk, bike, whatever. Do THAT for the environment, and get 50 smelly school busses off the road. I'm not a global warming subscriber, but.. you know... "I'll do my part..."
Two is simple too. If you're a problem in school, you'll be a problem on the bus. Up the privilege standard. Don't have four seats next to the driver to put the rowdy kids. What kind of dingbat decided to put the delinquents closest to the driver?
Three is the best one. If the kid is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong, and demands to get off the bus, I say let them off. Samantha knew the rules (as I previously noted), and knew it was a trump card. I think the best medicine would be to say, "Fine, behave or get out". They're bus drivers, not cops. And if your snowflake needs daycare, it's $14.00 an hour and they can ride the bus together.
I don't have much pity for Samantha. Suspended for 10 days, all the camera time necessary, denies she did any wrongdoing except that she didn't sit down when asked to. That's the ONLY thing she admits to. "I was just reaching for my phone", and denies even striking the bus driver. I find that incredibly hard to believe.
As for the bus driver's daughter (Erin), she was defending her mother. At age 15, would any of you have stood by while a classmate was clowning your mom? NO. Erin gets my "cool kid doing the right thing" award for the week. SOMEONE had to slap some sense into Samantha. Even though it didn't work, it was nice to see Erin try. That's the only actual consequence Samantha will receive on this.
The bus driver was wrong for not going back to the school and refusing to allow Samantha on the bus. THAT would have been the adult acting like an adult if this was a pattern. The school was wrong for putting a delinquent "deserving of the first four seats" in the bus in the first place (Why allow delinquents on the bus?), and then for a delayed response when the bus driver called for help.
I have no pity, because only a few zip codes away, our district had bus monitors. When my son was overheard telling a friend that he had a "completely murderous day" because he had 3 tests in one day, he was expelled from the bus for what the bus monitor decided was a "terrorist threat". Even the kids around him and their parents came to the meeting to defend my son, and they stood by the adult. The lesson he initially learned was that it was better to say that he was having a f***ing s***ty day than be descriptive in his oratory skills. He was 13. And shocked that he was kicked off the bus for using words that weren't swear words - while other kids got away with yelling obscenities. This from a kid with a clean record.
(Edited to add: That wasn't the lesson he learned. The lesson he learned was the importance of using specific words in today's world and to pick adjectives properly when venting his frustration He didn't learn that from the school. He learned that from us.
Adding another adult to the bus just makes more problems, and that's from personal experience. Then they're reporting stuff just to *do something. That's pointless! There are public busses. Maybe it's time to give a student discount and let them figure it out.
This is why I do charter schools. The public school system is broken. Time for the parents to return to teaching their kids, or at least forcing them to be more involved. The public school system just doesn't. But I digress. This is about Samantha and Kim and Cassandra and Erin.
The public system is "bullshoot".
QUOTE
1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
I think thought they do.
QUOTE
2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
I personally see a lot of generational differences here.
The bus driver is stubbornly expecting respect that she likely had to give when she was a kid and becomes extremely frustrated when she no only doesn't get it, but is disrespected in front of other students. Not excusing the driver, but I think the older you get, the more respect you realize you're not going to ever get that was expected from you. Different people deal with that inequality different ways, and this woman probably reached the end of her rope.
The teenager is well versed on her rights, and is quick to point out that she is "the protected", and in turn throws that advantage at every turn to the very person who is charged with her protection. Ironic. I'm reminded of the little scrawny kid who insults the bully, and then whines that "I was singled out because I'm small". In this case, "I just turned 15, so she shouldn't be distracted by me". "It's the bus driver."
Only after seeing Part 1 of the student's interview do we get a further glimpse into the situation. Part 2 is interesting because the student herself tells us that the first four rows in the bus are for children who have been in trouble before, and are under more scrutiny - and thus - you'd think would suggest that perhaps she is aware that her behavior in the past has caused her to address it. Whatever lesson was taught wasn't learned.
I think the lesson is that problem child - whether in the classroom or not - needs to find their own transportation to school. Perhaps mom and dad can be an influence if they have to be late to work for a week in order to get their kids to school on time. Or perhaps the kids will get the lesson when mom or dad, who refuse to be late for THEIR job, drop the kid off very very early at school, and then have to wait until someone can get around to picking them up.
QUOTE
3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?
I think the bus driver should be given a warning. Unfortunately, she is going to be charged with a crime. I guess the oldschool respect side of me is a little sorry that the 15 year old screech owl is going to be punished less than the bus driver who should have received both compliance and respect for a verbal request (or demand!), and got neither.
Somewhere, adults are not only not allowed to tell kids what to do, but we also need to explain why and how when we ask them permission to do something they're already supposed to do, and do it politely - with a cherry on top.
Here's the rub. The kids then go through a process that looks like this:
1. Is it legal? Or illegal? (Not the kid, the "other" person)
2. Can they force me?
3. What are the consequences?
4. Do I feel like it?
5. What if I don't?
6. Can I spin this to mom and dad?
7. Is it my fault?
8. Is everyone else being treated fairly?
9. Was I treated with the utmost respect?
10. Am I even REMOTELY a victim of SOMETHING throughout ANY of this situation?
.... and after all those criteria are considered, the kid who knows the boundaries will make the most self-serving decision, because the excuse resides in one of the 10 criteria listed above.
"Sit down and shut up" doesn't need a freaking thought process. Yet, try telling a kid to do that and see what you get. This article details it quite nicely.
To me, that sends a message that if you're a bus driver, you better be concerned about the road, and scared of the kids. The kid was on the bus with nobody who was going to deliver any form of swift justice, and for the time being, everyone recognized the anarchy. The bus really did belong to the kids. Imagine if a teacher took her phone and put it in his desk in a classroom setting. Would she reach, punch and shove him or her to get it out of the desk like she did to the bus driver for it being on the dashboard? I don't think so.
That's the precident that scares me.
This 15 year old is playing the game exactly the right way. She knows what really happened and what could be seen, and she knew to accuse the bus driver of grabbing her breasts (which, co-incidentally, I don't believe - I can't imagine if the bus driver had been a man!), and verbally interpreted every accusation for the camera. If it was a push, it was a hit. If it was a gentle anything, it became a violent something else. And in our "precious snowflake" world of overprotective, yet void-of-lessons parents, we're teaching the worst lesson of all: 'No matter what we do, if someone else was worse, then it's justified".
I don't care that Samantha will grow up someday and have a kid that disrespects her. That's almost guaranteed. Based on the interview, she didn't learn a thing.
The fact that that kid will be a major sensitive, whiny crybaby for the rest of society to tolerate is the real tragedy.
I have three answers.
One is simple. No busses. Drive, walk, bike, whatever. Do THAT for the environment, and get 50 smelly school busses off the road. I'm not a global warming subscriber, but.. you know... "I'll do my part..."
Two is simple too. If you're a problem in school, you'll be a problem on the bus. Up the privilege standard. Don't have four seats next to the driver to put the rowdy kids. What kind of dingbat decided to put the delinquents closest to the driver?
Three is the best one. If the kid is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong, and demands to get off the bus, I say let them off. Samantha knew the rules (as I previously noted), and knew it was a trump card. I think the best medicine would be to say, "Fine, behave or get out". They're bus drivers, not cops. And if your snowflake needs daycare, it's $14.00 an hour and they can ride the bus together.
I don't have much pity for Samantha. Suspended for 10 days, all the camera time necessary, denies she did any wrongdoing except that she didn't sit down when asked to. That's the ONLY thing she admits to. "I was just reaching for my phone", and denies even striking the bus driver. I find that incredibly hard to believe.
As for the bus driver's daughter (Erin), she was defending her mother. At age 15, would any of you have stood by while a classmate was clowning your mom? NO. Erin gets my "cool kid doing the right thing" award for the week. SOMEONE had to slap some sense into Samantha. Even though it didn't work, it was nice to see Erin try. That's the only actual consequence Samantha will receive on this.
The bus driver was wrong for not going back to the school and refusing to allow Samantha on the bus. THAT would have been the adult acting like an adult if this was a pattern. The school was wrong for putting a delinquent "deserving of the first four seats" in the bus in the first place (Why allow delinquents on the bus?), and then for a delayed response when the bus driver called for help.
I have no pity, because only a few zip codes away, our district had bus monitors. When my son was overheard telling a friend that he had a "completely murderous day" because he had 3 tests in one day, he was expelled from the bus for what the bus monitor decided was a "terrorist threat". Even the kids around him and their parents came to the meeting to defend my son, and they stood by the adult. The lesson he initially learned was that it was better to say that he was having a f***ing s***ty day than be descriptive in his oratory skills. He was 13. And shocked that he was kicked off the bus for using words that weren't swear words - while other kids got away with yelling obscenities. This from a kid with a clean record.
(Edited to add: That wasn't the lesson he learned. The lesson he learned was the importance of using specific words in today's world and to pick adjectives properly when venting his frustration He didn't learn that from the school. He learned that from us.
Adding another adult to the bus just makes more problems, and that's from personal experience. Then they're reporting stuff just to *do something. That's pointless! There are public busses. Maybe it's time to give a student discount and let them figure it out.
This is why I do charter schools. The public school system is broken. Time for the parents to return to teaching their kids, or at least forcing them to be more involved. The public school system just doesn't. But I digress. This is about Samantha and Kim and Cassandra and Erin.
The public system is "bullshoot".
QUOTE(azwhitewolf @ Feb 27 2008, 01:58 AM)
The bus driver is stubbornly expecting respect that she likely had to give when she was a kid and becomes extremely frustrated when she no only doesn't get it, but is disrespected in front of other students. Not excusing the driver, but I think the older you get, the more respect you realize you're not going to ever get that was expected from you. Different people deal with that inequality different ways, and this woman probably reached the end of her rope.
I don't think it has much to do with age and "expectation". It has to do with the actual rules for safety written in the student code of conduct handbook for Higley Unified School District:
QUOTE
Arizona law requires that, with respect to the authority of bus drivers, "Passengers shall comply with all instructions given to them by a school bus driver. A passenger or non-passenger who has boarded that school bus and refuses to comply with the bus driver's instructions may be surrendered into the custody of a person who is authorized by the school to assume responsibility for the passenger or non-passenger."
QUOTE
The teenager is well versed on her rights, and is quick to point out that she is "the protected", and in turn throws that advantage at every turn to the very person who is charged with her protection. Ironic.
Both Ironic and wrong. She was not within her rights, as stated above.
QUOTE
I'm reminded of the little scrawny kid who insults the bully, and then whines that "I was singled out because I'm small". In this case, "I just turned 15, so she shouldn't be distracted by me". "It's the bus driver."
I'm reminded of a punk kid myself, not a "little scrawny one". Her mannerisms were classic school-yard thug....right down to the nasty little toady back-up accomplice with the manners of a sewer rat.
QUOTE
No one is giving the kid a pass. No one is saying she is acting appropriately. What we or at least me, are saying is the adult in the situation acted completely inappropriate and the child is acting reactionary to the childish actions of the adult on a power trip. Others are giving the pass.
I really see your point here. In transporting the girl to the school and allowing administrators to handle it then, that would've been the more appropriate consequence. She could've informed her that if she didn't identify herself, that the administrators would greet her at the school and that she would have to deal with them. The kid would not have gotten away with her actions, the kids would've gotten to school on time, and the police charges and ensuing affair wouldn't have occured. Then again, I guess we are of the mindset that pulling a student's hair is o.k. if we can't get her to identify herself on the bus?
QUOTE
And in this debate a ew of you are not addressing this situation and are not addressing the points made. Mainly, that the inappropriate actions of the adult CAUSE the unsafe environment. You can start addressing these points or just keep feeding off each other. Your choice.
A fight on the bus is very unsafe, agreed. Once again, she tried to manhandle the girl and it blew up in her face. The girl was seated at first, an undeniable fact that shows that further agitating her, was what the bus driver did.
QUOTE
You DO NOT pull over a bus mid-route so you can go on some power tripping rant or try to embarrass a student. That is not her place.
Excellent point, adopting a Napoleon complex isn't wise.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Feb 27 2008, 07:26 AM)
QUOTE
No one is giving the kid a pass. No one is saying she is acting appropriately. What we or at least me, are saying is the adult in the situation acted completely inappropriate and the child is acting reactionary to the childish actions of the adult on a power trip. Others are giving the pass.
I really see your point here. In transporting the girl to the school and allowing administrators to handle it then, that would've been the more appropriate consequence. She could've informed her that if she didn't identify herself, that the administrators would greet her at the school and that she would have to deal with them. The kid would not have gotten away with her actions, the kids would've gotten to school on time, and the police charges and ensuing affair wouldn't have occured. Then again, I guess we are of the mindset that pulling a student's hair is o.k. if we can't get her to identify herself on the bus?
Okay, again I'll ask...How exactly could she do that once the girl was standing? Or are you saying she shouldn't have confronted the girl in the first place? Rather, she should have turned the bus around and silently driven back to the school without explanation instead of continuing on the bus route?
Once this girl stood up, there wasn't much that could be done. And we can certainly conclude from her behavior that she wouldn't have sat on the bus while others were boarding and exiting around her until they returned to the school so the "administrators" could handle it. Some of the responses here remind me of the way we'd refer to the actions one might take while confronting a rabid dog rather than an almost adult human being. "Should have known it would react that way!" "Don't confront it, it might get skitish...." There was no way to know beforehand that the girl would stand up and demand off of the bus in defiance that way. Quite the contrary would be expected, in fact, because she was being recorded.
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Feb 27 2008, 05:48 AM)
Okay, again I'll ask...How exactly could she do that once the girl was standing? Or are you saying she shouldn't have confronted the girl in the first place? Rather, she should have turned the bus around and silently driven back to the school without explanation instead of continuing on the bus route? Once this girl stood up, there wasn't much that could be done. And we can certainly conclude from her behavior that she wouldn't have sat on the bus while others were boarding and exiting around her until they returned to the school so the "administrators" could handle it.
Some of the responses here remind me of the way we'd refer to the actions one might take while confronting a rabid dog rather than an almost adult human being. "Should have known it would react that way!" "Don't confront it, it might get skitish...." There was no way to know beforehand that the girl would stand up and demand off of the bus in defiance that way. Quite the contrary would be expected, in fact, because she was being recorded.
Once this girl stood up, there wasn't much that could be done. And we can certainly conclude from her behavior that she wouldn't have sat on the bus while others were boarding and exiting around her until they returned to the school so the "administrators" could handle it. Some of the responses here remind me of the way we'd refer to the actions one might take while confronting a rabid dog rather than an almost adult human being. "Should have known it would react that way!" "Don't confront it, it might get skitish...." There was no way to know beforehand that the girl would stand up and demand off of the bus in defiance that way. Quite the contrary would be expected, in fact, because she was being recorded.
The simplest solution would have been, as I and others have pointed out above, to continue on her route and report the girl to her superiors. She'd have whatever evidence she needed to make her case and the students would have gotten home. The girl was not an immediate threat to the safety of the other students (not until confronted anyway). The bus driver did not need to take the kid back to the school to handle the situation. When there are problems on buses, you report the kid(s) who need to be reported for improper behavior. The girl only stood up after being confronted. And yes, I consider the manner in which the bus driver spoke to the girl a confrontation...she was picking a fight. And let's assume the bus driver still walks up to the girl and says her piece about how she needs the bus. The girl then says she's getting off the bus. A smart move would've been to tell the girl that she is not allowed to let her off just anywhere, but she is free to get off at "X" stop. Chances are, the girl would have sat down and waited for her bus stop since she was NOT standing demanding to get off the bus until the bus driver told her to find another way. Now, if the girl continues to fight with the bus driver after being given these instructions, at THAT point the bus driver may have been warranted to block the exit and take measures to keep the girl from exiting (not to include pulling her hair).
QUOTE(doomed_planet @ Feb 25 2008, 10:24 AM)
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 25 2008, 06:30 AM)
I'd feel a lot better about the state of education across the board if we would hire professionals with qualifications and not settle for able bodies.
Like I just told Turnea, it's not their job to be the crisis negotiator for unruly kids. And the minute we start placating the actions of juvenile delinquents, we will perpetuate the problem. There should be a no tolerance policy for anyone who behaves as that girl did. The police are called, she is removed from the bus, end of story. No mommy-coddling or negotiating is necessary.
There's a difference between coddling and professionally-handling the situation. If children really are our most precious resource, why does not one seem to act like it? Are we really that fundamentally against giving our kids the best money can buy? Isn't that what this country is about? It's a little hypocritical to say we should do everything possible to shelter our children, then kiss them goodbye every morning and not have certainty they're safe.
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 27 2008, 08:58 AM)
QUOTE(doomed_planet @ Feb 25 2008, 10:24 AM)
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Feb 25 2008, 06:30 AM)
I'd feel a lot better about the state of education across the board if we would hire professionals with qualifications and not settle for able bodies.
Like I just told Turnea, it's not their job to be the crisis negotiator for unruly kids. And the minute we start placating the actions of juvenile delinquents, we will perpetuate the problem. There should be a no tolerance policy for anyone who behaves as that girl did. The police are called, she is removed from the bus, end of story. No mommy-coddling or negotiating is necessary.
There's a difference between coddling and professionally-handling the situation. If children really are our most precious resource, why does not one seem to act like it? Are we really that fundamentally against giving our kids the best money can buy? Isn't that what this country is about? It's a little hypocritical to say we should do everything possible to shelter our children, then kiss them goodbye every morning and not have certainty they're safe.
Good grief! What the bleep is going on around here?
If the girl had a shred of respect instilled in her by her parents this wouldn't have happened at all. The bus driver would have dropped her off where she was supposed to be dropped off like thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of busses do every day. The problem in the story is the girl. Who instigated this? The girl.
I'm not a nut who expects blind subservient child drones siting quietly with their eyes down. I am pretty well acquainted with the 15 year old mind set. The girl on this bus is NOT the norm. She should not be treated as if what she did was bad BUT the school bus driver was a wild eyed out of control bully who's actions are cause of all this. The girl's actions are the beginning of this escalation.
Did the bus driver do a particularly good job of handling this girl? No. That's not her job. Had this girl been taught to be nominally respectful of authority none of this would have happened. None.
QUOTE
Okay, again I'll ask...How exactly could she do that once the girl was standing? Or are you saying she shouldn't have confronted the girl in the first place?
Wow I think I am being ignored, do you get that feeling KMSouthorn??
Mrs P I asked you before are you throwing out conjecture or facts. Are you sure that the administration was on the way when the woman pulled over the bus??
And to answer your question, a confrontation was unnecessary. Is a bus driver within her rights to stop the bus and talk to the students... my answer is yes. Is the student within her rights to not listen to a bus driver. The answer is no.
The bus driver chose to belittle the 15 year old for no apparent reason, and even if there is a reason behind the scene it still was not necessary. The bus driver judgement was bad.
BA
QUOTE
If the girl had a shred of respect instilled in her by her parents this wouldn't have happened at all. The bus driver would have dropped her off where she was supposed to be dropped off like thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of busses do every day. The problem in the story is the girl. Who instigated this? The girl.
Some of that conservative logic going on... huh. What exactly is it that the girl did that cause the bus driver to get out of her seat and take a belittling tone?? I must have missed it.
I think the girl did have respect... just none for the bus driver, especially when the bus driver prattled on about "how much you need me" the girl had enough respect and dignity to say... "no, I don't need you I got two feet let me off the bus". And when the bus driver decided she was going to push, she didn't just buckle down like pansy. In fact if the 15 year old ad less pride, dignity a nd respect for herself, the bus driver could have just humiliated her and the bus would be on it's merry way.
QUOTE
I'm not a nut who expects blind subservient child drones siting quietly with their eyes down. I am pretty well acquainted with the 15 year old mind set. The girl on this bus is NOT the norm. She should not be treated as if what she did was bad BUT the school bus driver was a wild eyed out of control bully who's actions are cause of all this. The girl's actions are the beginning of this escalation.
Actually you are. Are you saying the school bus driver wasn't acting like a bully?? talking down, embarrassing others, pushing, cussing, throwing the kids cell phone to the ground... sounds like a bully to me.
Hell, from your story you broke some kids jaw for doing that...
why'd you do it, if the above is acceptable behavior. QUOTE
Did the bus driver do a particularly good job of handling this girl? No. That's not her job. Had this girl been taught to be nominally respectful of authority none of this would have happened. None.
Not everyone gets those good conservative values when growing up like bowing down to authority and swallowing all they give you even when they are wrong.
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 10:51 AM)
-SNIP-
Not everyone gets those good conservative values when growing up like bowing down to authority and swallowing all they give you even when they are wrong.
Not everyone gets those good conservative values when growing up like bowing down to authority and swallowing all they give you even when they are wrong.
OK. Just say it.
***
The girl is a misunderstood but innocent victim in all this. She shares no culpability in this event. Despite any actions she may have taken she is exonerated due to the heinous, immature actions of the adult. An adult who should not only know better but who by virtue of being an adult should be able to deal with a 15 year old girl.
Further there is no reason a minor should bow down to an authority figure simply because they are an authority figure. It is possible, actually likely, that the authority figure will be wrong. It is unacceptable to grieve your case at a later time with another authority figure because "bowing down and swallowing all they give" is a narrow minded and Conservative value that is counter to what America is all about.
***
Does that about sum up your feelings about bus drivers?
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 10:51 AM)
Mrs P I asked you before are you throwing out conjecture or facts. Are you sure that the administration was on the way when the woman pulled over the bus??
I am not suggesting that the administration was on the way. I'm responding to Nebraska (as I was the first time you asked). He indicated that all the bus driver had to do was "transport the girl to the school and allow administrators to handle it". Seems reasonable to question exactly how she would be able to do that in light of the student's reaction.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Feb 27 2008, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 10:51 AM)
-SNIP-
Not everyone gets those good conservative values when growing up like bowing down to authority and swallowing all they give you even when they are wrong.
Not everyone gets those good conservative values when growing up like bowing down to authority and swallowing all they give you even when they are wrong.
OK. Just say it.
***
Further there is no reason a minor should bow down to an authority figure simply because they are an authority figure. It is possible,
***
Does that about sum up your feelings about bus drivers?
Pretty much... Good Job, BA!!!
I didn't know you could be so insightful. Mrs P
QUOTE
I am not suggesting that the administration was on the way. I'm responding to Nebraska (as I was the first time you asked). He indicated that all the bus driver had to do was "transport the girl to the school and allow administrators to handle it". Seems reasonable to question exactly how she would be able to do that in light of the student's reaction.
I highlight the word reaction... because it is just that, a reaction. Before there was a reaction there was the unnecessary action by the bus driver. You keep going on about how the bus driver was within her rights to stand up and belittle the young lady... and I agree she was. Being within your rights to do something is a FAAAAAR stretch from being right when you do something.
Explain why the stopping of the bus and belittleing tone of "explain to the rest of the bus how you need this bus" was a necessary confrontation. None of you have even attempted to do explain this. The child only demands to get off the bus because of the childish behavior of the adult in her attempts to humiliate the child... do you disagree?
Explain why this adult is throwing the phone with the mother of the misbehaving child on the ground?? None of you have attempted to do this.
If you are responding to Nebraska29 you have to answer why the adult made the bad decision prior to the child getting out of her seat, not act the the confrontation happened after the Bus driver and the child are in each others face.
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE
I am not suggesting that the administration was on the way. I'm responding to Nebraska (as I was the first time you asked). He indicated that all the bus driver had to do was "transport the girl to the school and allow administrators to handle it". Seems reasonable to question exactly how she would be able to do that in light of the student's reaction.
I highlight the word reaction... because it is just that a reaction. Before there was a reaction there was the unnecessary action by the bus driver. You keep going on about how the bus driver was within her rights to stand up and belittle the young lady... and I agree she was. Being within your rights to do something is a FAAAAAR stretch from being right when you do something.
Explain why the stopping of the bus and belittleing tone of "explain to the rest of the bus how you need this bus" was a necessary confrontation?? None of you have even attempted to do explain this. The child only demands to get off the bus because of the childish behavior of the adult in her attempts to humiliate the child... do you disagree?
Explain why this adult is throwing the phone with the mother of the misbehaving child on the ground?? None of you have attempted to do this.
If you are responding to Nebraska29 you have to answer why the adult made the bad decision prior to the child getting out of her seat, not act the the confrontation happened after the Bus driver and the child are in each others face.
I don't see why I would "have to answer that question", as there is obviously absolutely no reason to believe that the student would stay seated on the bus and await her discipline-by-administration while others departed from the bus. Keeping her on the bus would require confrontation, yes?
Edited to add (I think we posted this at the same time): The rest of your questions, incidentally, are numerous parts unsubtantiation and/or irrelevancy. We don't know exactly what happened before that instigated the stop. And you accuse me of throwing out conjecture as fact? I didn't see the driver "throw the phone on the ground" I saw her confiscate the phone, which was also her right. Electronic devices can be confiscated when they are causing a distraction, and this girl was shouting, demanding off the bus and waving the phone in her face.
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Feb 27 2008, 11:33 AM)
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE
I am not suggesting that the administration was on the way. I'm responding to Nebraska (as I was the first time you asked). He indicated that all the bus driver had to do was "transport the girl to the school and allow administrators to handle it". Seems reasonable to question exactly how she would be able to do that in light of the student's reaction.
I highlight the word reaction... because it is just that a reaction. Before there was a reaction there was the unnecessary action by the bus driver. You keep going on about how the bus driver was within her rights to stand up and belittle the young lady... and I agree she was. Being within your rights to do something is a FAAAAAR stretch from being right when you do something.
Explain why the stopping of the bus and belittleing tone of "explain to the rest of the bus how you need this bus" was a necessary confrontation?? None of you have even attempted to do explain this. The child only demands to get off the bus because of the childish behavior of the adult in her attempts to humiliate the child... do you disagree?
Explain why this adult is throwing the phone with the mother of the misbehaving child on the ground?? None of you have attempted to do this.
If you are responding to Nebraska29 you have to answer why the adult made the bad decision prior to the child getting out of her seat, not act the the confrontation happened after the Bus driver and the child are in each others face.
I don't see why I would "have to answer that question", as there is obviously absolutely no reason to believe that the student would stay seated on the bus and await her discipline-by-administration while others departed from the bus. Keeping her on the bus would require confrontation, yes?
No and that's where I would like you to expound, why would she be keeping her on the bus?? You let her off the bus at her stop, or you let her off at school depending on the direction they are going. Then you report any misbehavior to the school adminstrators. There is no unsafe behavior happening when the bus is being pulled over that warrants the driver leaving her seat.
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 12:42 PM)
QUOTE
I don't see why I would "have to answer that question", as there is obviously absolutely no reason to believe that the student would stay seated on the bus and await her discipline-by-administration while others departed from the bus. Keeping her on the bus would require confrontation, yes?
No and that's where I would like you to expound, why would she be keeping her on the bus?? You let her off the bus at her stop, or you let her off at school depending on the direction they are going. Then you report any misbehavior to the school adminstrators. There is no unsafe behavior happening when the bus is being pulled over that warrants the driver leaving her seat.
Why should I expound upon an idea I neither support, nor suggested in the first place?
The entire "should-have-done" is hindsight 20/20. There was no reason to expect this teenager would stand up and demand to get off on the side of the road. And again, we don't know what initiated the stop. We only know what proceeded from there.
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Feb 27 2008, 11:11 AM)
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 12:42 PM)
QUOTE
I don't see why I would "have to answer that question", as there is obviously absolutely no reason to believe that the student would stay seated on the bus and await her discipline-by-administration while others departed from the bus. Keeping her on the bus would require confrontation, yes?
No and that's where I would like you to expound, why would she be keeping her on the bus?? You let her off the bus at her stop, or you let her off at school depending on the direction they are going. Then you report any misbehavior to the school adminstrators. There is no unsafe behavior happening when the bus is being pulled over that warrants the driver leaving her seat.
Why should I expound upon an idea I neither support, nor suggested in the first place?
The entire "should-have-done" is hindsight 20/20. There was no reason to expect this teenager would stand up and demand to get off on the side of the road in the first place. We don't know exactly why she stopped, but I am quite certain the driver is at least as anxious to get home without any trouble as everyone else.
Sorry Mrs. P but I completely disagree about having no reason to suspect the girl would want to get off the bus on the side of the road. I think it's extremely reasonable to make that assumption based upon the actions of the bus driver: pulling the bus over to address her while simultaneously belittling her then telling her she should find another form of transportation. I don't see how it's a huge jump in logic to assume a 15 year old kid might take that as "get off my bus"...especially since the bus driver herself begins to tell the girl to get off the bus at one point.
Droop said:
And the result of her actions on the news, her parents being interviewed, the suspension, possible charges, and getting expelled is much less humiliating?
If the 15 year old had any pride or dignity to begin with, she would have taken the time to figure out what was expected of her and at least get close to it.
She says that she was "just on her cell phone minding her business". Have you guys ever been in a restaurant with someone at a nearby table dang near YELLING into the cell phone? That's distracting to a meal. And eating doesn't take much concentration. Now drive a bus with it.
As far as any respect for herself, she wouldn't have held up 40+ other kids with her tantrum if she had some. The fact that this little darling is plastered all over the news is actually enjoyable because people all over get to hear her cry, whine, complain about her precious little $400.00 cell phone (any bets it was a free phone after activation?) and wrongfully accuse an old lady of sexual misconduct.
And then claim it's the bus driver's fault, and that she is NOT spoiled.
You're right. If she would just have shut up and stayed seated, the bus WOULD be on its merry way. Heaven forbid an adult in an authoritative position corrects a child.
And school officials agree with me. According to THIS ARTICLE, School officials at her school, Williams Field High School, have recommended she be expelled for her actions. Now the parents can give her the attention and correction that parents should give. And hopefully a ride to school to boot.
Gilbert police have recommended aggravated assault charges be filed against her too.
I didn't realize that respect was a Conservative-Only value. Good thing I didn't change my voter registration yet. C'mon Droop. I thought you were bringing me to the liberal side. Does the other side of the fence dismiss respecting authority and elders? On the possibility that perhaps 20-30+ years of life experience MIGHT actually offer more wisdom than the whims of a 15 year old - and especially when that adult is charged with the safety of said 15 year old - only because the possibility exists that the older person might make a mistake or be wrong on occasion?
(insert baby/bathwater shrugged shoulders look)
But let's say either way - those who do "bow down to authority" certainly don't end up like this. Can we agree on THAT? You surely can't be making the argument that this example is going to result in progress! I've seen kids that need to do some bowing down and swallowing of what adults give. They're at the supermarket calling their mom a stupid b**** and the mall sassing and challenging the security guards and calling them rent-a-pigs when they get obnoxious in a store. Now they need rights when the ride the school bus?
There's a balance - or should be. Nobody is saying kids should be at the whim of any adult, rather an adult in a position of authority should expect (and receive) that respect. But nobody wants to talk about that balance when the kids step over the line because someone will be offended that their precious crotchdropping is singled out, and we know how that ends up: lawsuits! So when the parents fail, the kids can't be disciplined at school, there is only one other place kids will learn that there is an actual authority with consequences. The police. And the court system. Shouldn't that be a last resort?
And then "it's a shame that a youth has to go through that!" No, it's a shame that the parents are so uninvolved that their kids award themselves with a criminal record and then blame everyone else. Watch that video. The girl herself threatens "I will sue you" - clueless that she has done anything wrong. She already knows that her parents will blindly defend her, the school system will be ineffective, and a lawsuit is the ultimate revenge for humiliation. She already has been oppressed, molested, humiliated - and narrates this theme throughout the whole video. And this is our future?
The irony of this is when the girl first got manhandled (guided, I suggest), she COULD have sat back down and reported it, whereas the teacher would have gotten in serious trouble, and Samantha would have gotten off scott free. But she had to have her prideful and arrogant hissy fit, "declare her rights" and start demanding and acting on those demands to get off the bus, and demanding her cell phone back - and escalated her own situation to where it was.
Yet, she continues to blame the bus driver. Finally yesterday she admitted she was "immature about it", but still refuses to take responsibility for it because she claims she was defending herself. That's nice to say after you demand and scream like a little mini-God Warrior from Trading Spouses. "She's not a gooood BUUUUSSSSS DRI!!!!!!-VER!!!!!!!!!!!!"
That said, the bus driver could have finished off the route, reported Samantha to the school, and refused to allow her to ride the bus any longer. I'm not dismissing the driver, because I believe (and hope!) that she could at least have THAT option. But she didn't do that, and she is responsible because she didn't cut the cancer out before it grew.
Riding the bus and going to school is still a privilege that can't be abused by immature and prideful arrogance. This girl will hopefully learn that. I'm not making any bets, tho.
Regardless, the adults had better win this one, and justice had better be swift, because the kids truly see this as a "kids vs. adults" issue. Otherwise, you'll see copycats spring up in every district because the precedent will have been set that this is acceptable behavior. I have kids. I can tell you now, if they think it can be tested, it WILL be tested.
And see my post above. I have every reason to hate the school bus system, yet I'm defending the bus driver.
Samantha's prepubescent outbursts is no reason to defend her "rights". She gave that up when she stood up to leave and fought authority - not based on any definitive oppression, but because public correction is now translated with a broad brush of what some define "humiliation". So okay, leave her school career to her parents now, who should have to answer and defend her rights for her. And then they can teach her at home. It does take a village, but parents are part of that village too, and the rest of the village shouldn't have to suffer because the parents only involve themselves when they have the camera crews show up at the house.
And for that matter, leave your cell phones at home. i th0t skool ws a plc 2 lrn, not txt msg evry1.
It was my impression that getting off the bus was Samantha's idea. "Fine, I'll just get off the bus", turned into "Let me off the bus" and then "I'm getting off the bus NOW". How you get that from "Why do you ride the bus, Sammy" is a debate tactic called a Non Sequitur.
Ironically, the rest of the occupants found their way off. I content my above paragraphs that Samantha refused to be corrected, so she went to seek the easiest way out, which was to quickly leave the situation and make it someone else's responsibility instead of sitting down and "swallowing" a little pride and allowing an authority figure to actually have authority. She knew she was wrong then, and now she claims it's all the bus driver's fault because now she's a victim - oh, and that's she acted a little immature but... but... but the bus driver did... and the bus driver did... and the bus driver said....
It wouldn't have killed her to swallow a little pride and bow down to authority. It's really what she should have done. Clearly this lesson remains undiscovered.
KMSouthern, Where in the video does she say that? mm:ss would be great.
QUOTE
In fact if the 15 year old ad less pride, dignity a nd respect for herself, the bus driver could have just humiliated her and the bus would be on it's merry way.
And the result of her actions on the news, her parents being interviewed, the suspension, possible charges, and getting expelled is much less humiliating?
If the 15 year old had any pride or dignity to begin with, she would have taken the time to figure out what was expected of her and at least get close to it.
She says that she was "just on her cell phone minding her business". Have you guys ever been in a restaurant with someone at a nearby table dang near YELLING into the cell phone? That's distracting to a meal. And eating doesn't take much concentration. Now drive a bus with it.
As far as any respect for herself, she wouldn't have held up 40+ other kids with her tantrum if she had some. The fact that this little darling is plastered all over the news is actually enjoyable because people all over get to hear her cry, whine, complain about her precious little $400.00 cell phone (any bets it was a free phone after activation?) and wrongfully accuse an old lady of sexual misconduct.
And then claim it's the bus driver's fault, and that she is NOT spoiled.
You're right. If she would just have shut up and stayed seated, the bus WOULD be on its merry way. Heaven forbid an adult in an authoritative position corrects a child.
And school officials agree with me. According to THIS ARTICLE, School officials at her school, Williams Field High School, have recommended she be expelled for her actions. Now the parents can give her the attention and correction that parents should give. And hopefully a ride to school to boot.
Gilbert police have recommended aggravated assault charges be filed against her too.
QUOTE
Not everyone gets those good conservative values when growing up like bowing down to authority and swallowing all they give you even when they are wrong.
I didn't realize that respect was a Conservative-Only value. Good thing I didn't change my voter registration yet.
C'mon Droop. I thought you were bringing me to the liberal side. Does the other side of the fence dismiss respecting authority and elders? On the possibility that perhaps 20-30+ years of life experience MIGHT actually offer more wisdom than the whims of a 15 year old - and especially when that adult is charged with the safety of said 15 year old - only because the possibility exists that the older person might make a mistake or be wrong on occasion?(insert baby/bathwater shrugged shoulders look)
But let's say either way - those who do "bow down to authority" certainly don't end up like this. Can we agree on THAT? You surely can't be making the argument that this example is going to result in progress! I've seen kids that need to do some bowing down and swallowing of what adults give. They're at the supermarket calling their mom a stupid b**** and the mall sassing and challenging the security guards and calling them rent-a-pigs when they get obnoxious in a store. Now they need rights when the ride the school bus?
There's a balance - or should be. Nobody is saying kids should be at the whim of any adult, rather an adult in a position of authority should expect (and receive) that respect. But nobody wants to talk about that balance when the kids step over the line because someone will be offended that their precious crotchdropping is singled out, and we know how that ends up: lawsuits! So when the parents fail, the kids can't be disciplined at school, there is only one other place kids will learn that there is an actual authority with consequences. The police. And the court system. Shouldn't that be a last resort?
And then "it's a shame that a youth has to go through that!" No, it's a shame that the parents are so uninvolved that their kids award themselves with a criminal record and then blame everyone else. Watch that video. The girl herself threatens "I will sue you" - clueless that she has done anything wrong. She already knows that her parents will blindly defend her, the school system will be ineffective, and a lawsuit is the ultimate revenge for humiliation. She already has been oppressed, molested, humiliated - and narrates this theme throughout the whole video. And this is our future?
The irony of this is when the girl first got manhandled (guided, I suggest), she COULD have sat back down and reported it, whereas the teacher would have gotten in serious trouble, and Samantha would have gotten off scott free. But she had to have her prideful and arrogant hissy fit, "declare her rights" and start demanding and acting on those demands to get off the bus, and demanding her cell phone back - and escalated her own situation to where it was.
Yet, she continues to blame the bus driver. Finally yesterday she admitted she was "immature about it", but still refuses to take responsibility for it because she claims she was defending herself. That's nice to say after you demand and scream like a little mini-God Warrior from Trading Spouses. "She's not a gooood BUUUUSSSSS DRI!!!!!!-VER!!!!!!!!!!!!"
That said, the bus driver could have finished off the route, reported Samantha to the school, and refused to allow her to ride the bus any longer. I'm not dismissing the driver, because I believe (and hope!) that she could at least have THAT option. But she didn't do that, and she is responsible because she didn't cut the cancer out before it grew.
Riding the bus and going to school is still a privilege that can't be abused by immature and prideful arrogance. This girl will hopefully learn that. I'm not making any bets, tho.
Regardless, the adults had better win this one, and justice had better be swift, because the kids truly see this as a "kids vs. adults" issue. Otherwise, you'll see copycats spring up in every district because the precedent will have been set that this is acceptable behavior. I have kids. I can tell you now, if they think it can be tested, it WILL be tested.
And see my post above. I have every reason to hate the school bus system, yet I'm defending the bus driver.
Samantha's prepubescent outbursts is no reason to defend her "rights". She gave that up when she stood up to leave and fought authority - not based on any definitive oppression, but because public correction is now translated with a broad brush of what some define "humiliation". So okay, leave her school career to her parents now, who should have to answer and defend her rights for her. And then they can teach her at home. It does take a village, but parents are part of that village too, and the rest of the village shouldn't have to suffer because the parents only involve themselves when they have the camera crews show up at the house.
And for that matter, leave your cell phones at home. i th0t skool ws a plc 2 lrn, not txt msg evry1.
QUOTE
I don't see how it's a huge jump in logic to assume a 15 year old kid might take that as "get off my bus"...especially since the bus driver herself begins to tell the girl to get off the bus at one point.
It was my impression that getting off the bus was Samantha's idea. "Fine, I'll just get off the bus", turned into "Let me off the bus" and then "I'm getting off the bus NOW". How you get that from "Why do you ride the bus, Sammy" is a debate tactic called a Non Sequitur.
Ironically, the rest of the occupants found their way off. I content my above paragraphs that Samantha refused to be corrected, so she went to seek the easiest way out, which was to quickly leave the situation and make it someone else's responsibility instead of sitting down and "swallowing" a little pride and allowing an authority figure to actually have authority. She knew she was wrong then, and now she claims it's all the bus driver's fault because now she's a victim - oh, and that's she acted a little immature but... but... but the bus driver did... and the bus driver did... and the bus driver said....
It wouldn't have killed her to swallow a little pride and bow down to authority. It's really what she should have done. Clearly this lesson remains undiscovered.
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...especially since the bus driver herself begins to tell the girl to get off the bus at one point.
KMSouthern, Where in the video does she say that? mm:ss would be great.
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The rest of your questions, incidentally, are numerous parts unsubtantiation and/or irrelevancy. We don't know exactly what happened before that instigated the stop. And you accuse me of throwing out conjecture as fact? I didn't see the driver "throw the phone on the ground" I saw her confiscate the phone, which was also her right. Electronic devices can be confiscated when they are causing a distraction, and this girl was shouting, demanding off the bus and waving the phone in her face.
Oh you didn't see her throw the phone down?? Did you see her immature belittling?? Did you see her physically pushing the girl in her seat?? Did you see her push the girl in the breast?? Did you see her say "f___ you, you B____" to the girl?? Did you see her smack the girls hand down?? Did you see the other girl telling the bus driver my mom is two feet away let me off?? Did you see the girl teen in question handing the phone to the bus driver stating "talk to my mother, she is on the phone." Besides a brat screaming at her bus driver... what did you see??
I want to talk about irrelenvency. How about the irrelenvency of what the girl may or may not have been doing before? We don't need to know what the girl did wrong. The fact that even if the girl did do something wrong, it was not sufficient that the bus driver pull the bus over and give a speech. What we need to know is was the girl acting in an unsafe maner that endangered the other kids at the time the bus was being pulled over. When the camera is rolling and the bus is pulling over, and everyone, to include the bus driver, is sitting in their seat, what is the teen doing that is endangering the students.... NOTHING!
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The entire "should-have-done" is hindsight 20/20. There was no reason to expect this teenager would stand up and demand to get off on the side of the road. And again, we don't know what initiated the stop. We only know what proceeded from there.
Well here is what we do know. When the bus driver stood up... did she say... "you can't do this or do that"??? Did she confront the teen in a manner to make her comply with some broken rule by restating the need of orderly behavior??
I mean usually if we want some one to stop something, we tell them to stop doing that which we want them to stop. What we do KNOW is that at the point of initiating confrontation with the student, the bus drivers words served no purpose bu humiliation. Do you disagree??
So it is not hind sight 20/20. Even if we knew for certain that the girl would not have said anything back, the bus driver would still be completely wrong (but within her rights) to talk to that student in that manner. Because the girls reaction is not what makes the bus driver wrong... it's just what got them on the news. The bus driver is wrong either way and I don't need 20/20 to see that.
Edited to add.
AZWW
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And the result of her actions on the news, her parents being interviewed, the suspension, possible charges, and getting expelled is much less humiliating?
Actually i would think it is more humiliating. But it is a part of growing up. Learning the battles to fight, learning when little is gained from losing your cool. Again, the two of them are pretty much making the same mistakes with two differences. The bus driver started the confrontation and the bus driver IS the adult, who should act like one. Your thoughts...
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She says that she was "just on her cell phone minding her business". Have you guys ever been in a restaurant with someone at a nearby table dang near YELLING into the cell phone? That's distracting to a meal. And eating doesn't take much concentration. Now drive a bus with it.
Well there is noise all over the bus as it is being pulled over AZWW. There is also another female on the right side who is also on the cell phone. And if you have ever rode a public school bus they are loud and noisy... not fair, all the ones I have ever ridden out side of elementary were loud and noisy. That's why I don't drive a school bus.
So again, back to the bus driver. If cell phones were an issue she shouldn't have singled out Samantha when another was using. If it were an issue she should have just told her to put it away, without the humiliation or even pulling over the bus. And if noise is the issue she should not drive buses for high school students. what do you say??
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As far as any respect for herself, she wouldn't have held up 40+ other kids with her tantrum if she had some. The fact that this little darling is plastered all over the news is actually enjoyable because people all over get to hear her cry, whine, complain about her precious little $400.00 cell phone (any bets it was a free phone after activation?) and wrongfully accuse an old lady of sexual misconduct.
And then claim it's the bus driver's fault, and that she is NOT spoiled.
And then claim it's the bus driver's fault, and that she is NOT spoiled.
And how would you act in this situation... not if you were a kid, but as a grown adult? BA would break someone jaw. What would you do today, if someone humiliated you, trapped you, pushed you around and destroyed your property? What is your reaction and why?? Tell me your reaction doesn't have anything to do with respect. If you would react are you reacting cause you are spoiled? And before you say "but I'm an adult" ask yourself is a 15 year old incapable of feeling disrespected?
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I didn't realize that respect was a Conservative-Only value. Good thing I didn't change my voter registration yet. C'mon Droop. I thought you were bringing me to the liberal side. Does the other side of the fence dismiss respecting authority and elders? On the possibility that perhaps 20-30+ years of life experience MIGHT actually offer more wisdom than the whims of a 15 year old - and especially when that adult is charged with the safety of said 15 year old - only because the possibility exists that the older person might make a mistake or be wrong on occasion?
C'mon Droop. I thought you were bringing me to the liberal side. Does the other side of the fence dismiss respecting authority and elders? On the possibility that perhaps 20-30+ years of life experience MIGHT actually offer more wisdom than the whims of a 15 year old - and especially when that adult is charged with the safety of said 15 year old - only because the possibility exists that the older person might make a mistake or be wrong on occasion?And I still might... I make you a deal i won't dismiss the teenagers actions if you don't dismiss the adults in this situation. Deal?? Like I said they both handled this wrong...
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But let's say either way - those who do "bow down to authority" certainly don't end up like this. Can we agree on THAT? You surely can't be making the argument that this example is going to result in progress! I've seen kids that need to do some bowing down and swallowing of what adults give. They're at the supermarket calling their mom a stupid b**** and the mall sassing and challenging the security guards and calling them rent-a-pigs when they get obnoxious in a store. Now they need rights when the ride the school bus?
There's a balance - or should be. Nobody is saying kids should be at the whim of any adult, rather an adult in a position of authority should expect (and receive) that respect. But nobody wants to talk about that balance when the kids step over the line because someone will be offended that their precious crotchdropping is singled out, and we know how that ends up: lawsuits! So when the parents fail, the kids can't be disciplined at school, there is only one other place kids will learn that there is an actual authority with consequences. The police. And the court system. Shouldn't that be a last resort?
And then "it's a shame that a youth has to go through that!" No, it's a shame that the parents are so uninvolved that their kids award themselves with a criminal record and then blame everyone else. Watch that video. The girl herself threatens "I will sue you" - clueless that she has done anything wrong. She already knows that her parents will blindly defend her, the school system will be ineffective, and a lawsuit is the ultimate revenge for humiliation. She already has been oppressed, molested, humiliated - and narrates this theme throughout the whole video. And this is our future?
There's a balance - or should be. Nobody is saying kids should be at the whim of any adult, rather an adult in a position of authority should expect (and receive) that respect. But nobody wants to talk about that balance when the kids step over the line because someone will be offended that their precious crotchdropping is singled out, and we know how that ends up: lawsuits! So when the parents fail, the kids can't be disciplined at school, there is only one other place kids will learn that there is an actual authority with consequences. The police. And the court system. Shouldn't that be a last resort?
And then "it's a shame that a youth has to go through that!" No, it's a shame that the parents are so uninvolved that their kids award themselves with a criminal record and then blame everyone else. Watch that video. The girl herself threatens "I will sue you" - clueless that she has done anything wrong. She already knows that her parents will blindly defend her, the school system will be ineffective, and a lawsuit is the ultimate revenge for humiliation. She already has been oppressed, molested, humiliated - and narrates this theme throughout the whole video. And this is our future?
It's not nearly that deep for me is what I am stressing. I'm all for laying the smack down on kids, but our society is not. In this situation the drama could have been avoided, and the drama was started by the bus driver feeling a need to show the bus "King Kong had nothing on her"(training day with Denzel Washington
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The irony of this is when the girl first got manhandled (guided, I suggest), she COULD have sat back down and reported it, whereas the teacher would have gotten in serious trouble, and Samantha would have gotten off scott free. But she had to have her prideful and arrogant hissy fit, "declare her rights" and start demanding and acting on those demands to get off the bus, and demanding her cell phone back - and escalated her own situation to where it was.
Yet, she continues to blame the bus driver. Finally yesterday she admitted she was "immature about it", but still refuses to take responsibility for it because she claims she was defending herself. That's nice to say after you demand and scream like a little mini-God Warrior from Trading Spouses. "She's not a gooood BUUUUSSSSS DRI!!!!!!-VER!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Yet, she continues to blame the bus driver. Finally yesterday she admitted she was "immature about it", but still refuses to take responsibility for it because she claims she was defending herself. That's nice to say after you demand and scream like a little mini-God Warrior from Trading Spouses. "She's not a gooood BUUUUSSSSS DRI!!!!!!-VER!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Thus why she says "I was immature about it", but claims she was defending herself. The bus driver started the verbal confrontation and the physical confrontation. But if she (the girl) would have ate some humble pie, she could just have ignored the bus driver from the start.
QUOTE(droop224 @ Feb 27 2008, 11:42 AM)
No and that's where I would like you to expound, why would she be keeping her on the bus?? You let her off the bus at her stop, or you let her off at school depending on the direction they are going. Then you report any misbehavior to the school adminstrators. There is no unsafe behavior happening when the bus is being pulled over that warrants the driver leaving her seat.
Where exactly was "her stop"? Would the child have simply gotten off at the next stop, claiming it was her stop? What if something happened to the girl after she got off the bus and she was let off at a location that wasn't her actual stop? Who would the parents hold responsible? Who would the law hold responsible? The bus driver? Bingo! A confrontation was necessary. In terms of the phone, she may just as well have tossed the phone on the driver seat. In terms of the struggle, what I saw was the girl continuing to attempt to either get off the bus or grab the confiscated phone. The question is how much force was necessary to prevent the student from doing either. The bus driver couldn't back down and the child wouldn't back down.
I agree that there are serious problems with letting the child off the bus... though school's typically have their legal bases covered with disclaimers to sign and the like.
In any case I'll ask again.
Does anyone believe the bus driver handled this correctly?... anything close to correctly?
We know the kid was way out of line. So now what?
In any case I'll ask again.
Does anyone believe the bus driver handled this correctly?... anything close to correctly?
We know the kid was way out of line. So now what?
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Did you see her push the girl in the breast??
No, and from that angle, neither did you. I did see the girl react with her arm, and then yell about her breast, tho.
Droop, you have far more awesome arguments than to resort to suggesting that this bus driver sexually assaulted this kid. Once the girl yelled "breast", she was empowered with control and had everyone's attention, and showed absolutely no constraint afterwards. Again, if this was a male bus driver, he'd already be in jail.
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Did you see the girl saying other girl telling the bus driver my mom is two feet away let me off??
If you want to talk about "irrelevancy", that is illegal. You can't release a kid from the bus anywhere unless it's in front of the designated spot.
What if she let the girl off because the girl lied and just SAID her mom was two feet away? Would YOU take that chance?
What if the mom has a restraining order due to a CPS hearing and is taking advantage of this situation for a child custody battle that went wrong? I suppose bus drivers should be trained to recognize that too? You want to talk about a legal snafu, that's about as huge as it could get. The driver was right in passing up such an opportunity to allow the mother board the bus or the kid to get off.. But hey, let's hate her for following that protocol, too.
I can see the headlines now. Bus Driver deserts kid in bad part of town... Driver responsible for disappearance of student... Bus Driver releases student to convicted child abuser who asks on cell phone...
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Did you see the girl teen in question handing the phone to the bus driver stating "talk to my mother, she is on the phone."
It's not an obligation that any teacher or bus driver in question has to immediately comply with the demands of a student OR a parent when she is soley responsible for the safety of those kids on school property. Don't like it? Don't send your kids to school property. While we could argue whether or not she was fostering a pleasant environment, there was absolutely nothing to solve with a hysterical mother on the phone. Nothing that mother would have said would have changed anything. Nothing.
That's exactly where I think you have it backwards.
You want a parent involved, empowered and controlling, have them ride the school bus with the disruptive first-four-rows kids. Don't wait for the kid to be a disruptive nuisance before you do something. If the parents are two minutes away, and you don't like how the bus driver does it, spend two minutes and drive your own kids. Problem solved.
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Besides a brat screaming at her bus driver... what did you see??
Disrespect for authority, demands, an attempt to physically recover her confiscated cell phone regardless of the well being of the authority figure, threats to sue an adult, intimidation, demands to do something illegal (get off the bus), 40