PHOENIX — Charges may be forthcoming after a fight involving a Higley Unified School District bus driver and three teenagers that was captured on a security video, authorities said.

Gilbert police released a copy of a district videotape Thursday that shows a Williams Field High School girl and bus driver Kim Sullivan in a disagreement last Friday that escalates over the course of 15 minutes.

The tape shows both are verbally combative with each other.

Later, Sullivan takes the girl's cell phone and calls for security and a student on the bus called 911 after the bus had stopped and the shoving match began, the video shows.

Police are investigating three teens and Sullivan, 54, in connection with the situation.

Higley officials have sent a letter home to parents saying they are conducting their own investigation to determine what disciplinary measures to take.

SOURCE

WATCH THE VIDEO

Questions for Debate:


1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?

2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?

3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?

What surprises me more than anything is the interview with the mother of another (also confrontational) student later. After seeing this tape, she feels her daughter acted correctly! I would be so ashamed if my child acted this way. I wouldn't show my face on television, and my child would be grounded for life.

1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
Yes. What else is she supposed to do?

2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
I don't see how. Stun gun? Sounds good to me.

3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?

Every confrontational student on that bus should be barred from taking the bus. Let them walk home. Let those crappy parents carpool their own nasty kids.

The bus driver's daughter for 3rd man in. She should get 10 minutes and game misconduct.

However, my wife after watching the video thinks the bus driver is completely wrong.

Everyone in this situation acted irresponsibly. The bus driver was the instigator of physical violence and, I don't care how much of a 'brat' the kid was...there was no reason for the bus driver to put her hands on her, which she OBVIOUSLY did. The bus driver could have easily avoided the entire situation by telling the girl WHY she wasn't allowed off the bus at that spot. It's impossible to know what happened leading up to the bus driver stopping the bus, but the kids certainly didn't appear to be doing anything unruly. The kid obviously should've sat down and that, too, could have avoided any further issue.

Were this a teacher, there would be outrage against the teacher (and rightly so) and the teacher would likely be fired immediately. As much as a kid might get 'in your face', you are the responsible adult and it is your JOB to practice restraint. I realize that being on a bus means there was little intervention of others possible, but that doesn't excuse her use of physical force when it appeared completely unwarranted. Had the student managed to get off the bus at any point, the bus driver would certainly have had all of the proof she needed to say she did everything she could/should have done to not allow her to do so.

But everyone involved was responsible for escalating the situation in some way. I don't know about what charges should be filed with the exception of charges against the bus driver since she made the confrontation a physical one. There was simply no reason for putting her hands on the student. That the girl was loud and obnoxious does not change the fact that the bus driver, the supposedly responsible adult, was the one who ultimately created the situation.

To me, the answer depends on two things:

A)Why did the bus driver stop when at the beginning of the clip, the girl is seated and appears to be talking with her(the bus driver)?

B )What is the protocol in the district for drivers who have a "situation" on the bus? If she is supposed to pull over, then she did the right thing. If the kid was just being argumentative and was still seated(which she was at the beginning of the clip) then the driver should've continued on and have encouraged her to drop it.





Since the girl was seated at the beginning of the clip, it's apparent that the bus driver did a horrible job of de-escalating the situation. She should've kept driving and radioed for help and had an administrator meet her somewhere between the bus and the school if the girl was being verbally abusive/inappropriate. Unless a student gets physical with you first, you cannot touch them. That is a basic rule of law and standard that this person violated. She has a right to block the student's pathway, but beyond that, no, she can't physically manhandle the student.

Pretty much everyone who was actively involved should be punished.

-In touching the student first, the bus driver committed battery
and should be charged.

-The girl yelling at the bus driver should be charged with assault and battery

-The bus driver's daughter should be charged with battery

-The girl's friend should be charged with assault and battery

How should they be punished? A reprimand from the school according to what the handbook says and also according to what the laws are regarding assault and battery.

1.) Teachers, school administrators, and janitors may do it at their leisure. Just because it's a moving vehicle, people still argue that it's a piece of the school just as a base in Germany is still American soil. So the driver had every inherent right to pull over.

2.) Let her continue until a dean, Youth Resource Officer, and Assistant Principal could be standing at the unloading area at the school waiting for her. The driver is an adult, and the girl is a kid. Sticks and stones wouldn't have broken the woman's bones if she had waited it out.

3.) The girl. Goodness, she exists in public school and should know better than to ever, ever, ever consider something so rash against a public employee. It's a deplorable situation and she ultimately drew first blood, in the sense that she pulled the first physical blow.

1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?

Absolutely.

2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?

She called for help which did not come. I don't know what else she could've done at that point.

3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?

The use of physical force to stop a disturbance is completely appropriate - especially the type used by the bus driver at the beginning of the video. The idea that the bus driver is not allowed to touch a student when that student is escalating a disturbance is ridiculous.

Garner-Hayfield Community School District Information for Parents and Students



This isn't the same school district or even the same state, but I can't imagine that the policy is much different. I don't think it should be.

This child stood up on the bus and demanded to get off the bus. She would not sit down. It was certainly appropriate for the bus driver to use the level of physical force she did in an attempt to get the child to sit down. It was this girls indignant behavior that escalated the situation. It was the girl who escalated the problem, it is the girl who should be punished.

The student should be suspended and her parents should find her another way to school.

I agree with Mrs P- and this emphasizes my point in other threads about parents and thier entitlement feelings and all of that

the mother of the teen should be sued and forced to live on the street IMHO- seriously- she should have life long consequenses, with costant public service announcements showing her face as a picture of 'a bad parent"

The girls that were acting so badly should be banned from the public school system for life, and put in juvenile jail until they graduate, the boot camp kind where death may very well happen if they are not very, very good.

We need to stomp on these people so hard they never have another chance to catch thier breath and utter another word.

The parents of these children, and thier behavior, is an example of everything that is wrong with America, and they should be terminated with great predjudice.

The Bus Driver was completely in the right, in every way, and she had no choices in her actions other than abandon the buss and all the kids and walk away.

I feel bad for her.

This is a case that TRULY calls for "canning" singapore style the kids and the parents of the kids- very seriously, a public canning would be the truly best answer for those unruly kids and the parents of those kids. I seriuously think that it would be the best solution, over a 1 week period, 25 blows a day.

It would be a very good wake up call for parents to quit turning out monsters like those girls.

Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
Leading question.

The actual point of conflict is the method of "regaining control."

Here the first thing tried was use of intimidation.

As anyone who has actually worked with kids, particularly those with behavioral problems, this is a almost universally stupid strategy.

It occasionally works if you know what you're doing, but the stare-down is not for amateurs.

CR you've worked in the mental health field, you know as well as I do that fear and rage are a hair's breadth away. Try and intimidate an angry kid and your just a likely to provoke a "fight" as a you are a "flight" response.

kmsouthern has it right, no one's hands are clean here.

Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
Well I was told in training to talk to kid down. Identify the source of distress, and allow them to come up with ways to handle it themselves with careful guidance.

Never initiate a physical confrontation. It's not worth anyone getting hurt.

Who should be punished, and why? And How?
Here nebraska29 cuts right to the point. The students both clearly need a time out, detention for a while.

The bus drivers culpability depends on here adherence to protocol.

I don't see fear and rage here Turnea- and boy do I know both well! - what I see here is some spolied brat children with a ton of electronic gizmos that cost a months salary that have never been truly disciplined in thier life, and when someone tells them to do something, they feel that they don't have to do it- obviously the mother of the one girl is a total waste of oxygen, just for the way she defends the indefensible actions of her daughter.

The number two reason we see in the creation of sociopaths is total lack of consequences for behavior- I am looking at three as I type this, right now.

You have a kid here that OBVIOUSLY does this at home, and it works.

If I were a lawmaker- I would make a law giving more leeway to the bus driver, pepper spray and tazer would be at the top of the list. I am not joking. These kids deserved to be tazed, at the least. That would cool thier jets, right now. Maybe take a little of that "I have a right to fight adults on the bus" right out of them.

People like this give the lord helmets and teds and the extremist muslim groups of this world validity in thier words- who wants thier societies kids to be like these little wastes of skin?

I hate it when our society gives the religious right any credence to thier arguments on public schooling- I really, really do.

It is also a clear argument FOR spanking- which I am usually somewhat neutral on- but these kids have had no serious consesquences for thier behaviors- EVER.

The "you are sent to your room and you can just mull this over on your myspace page, ipod and cell phone" generation.

I have two kids, and I would be mortified to EVER see them behave this way, and would make them write an apology to the bus driver, call her and apologize for my kids behavior, and probably be looking to ship my kid out of the country, probably Russia, since I have kin there, and I would hire the biggest, meanest Russian drill instructor in an area with NO amenities, no electricity or running water, where they have to work hard just to survive. I want a place that does NOT have child protection laws, and no one to complain to.

It is the only way to turn brats like this around.

I see NOTHING here that gives the teenage girls ANY excuse, any way to blame the bus driver, whatsoever. The parents of these kids are just horrid. They should seriously be banned from any public school in the country that does not have a boot-camp like setting, with harsh penalties for bad behavior.

You can not rehabilitate anyone, especially kids, when you have parents actually defending thier actions, and there are no serious consequences to both the child and the parents.

Battery? BATTERY? The driver tried to get the girl to sit back down in her seat when she jumped up and headed down the eisle demanding to get off. The driver cannot let her off on the side of the road. She was within her rights there. She did not assault this teenager nor use excessive force. Every bit of this could have been avoided if this spoiled brat had just sat down.



I think it's natural to want to defend your own mother. What would you have done in her position? If it were my mother, that girl would be in a coma.

This is why these kids are the way they are - you can always find someone who can't take full responsibility for their own kid.

If my daughter did that, she'd be seriously grounded, lose a few toys - like her cell phone - and be writing apology letters for a month. It's not the bus driver's responsibility to deal with punk kids. Her job is to drive each kid to school and home safely. She is not your babysitter, your proxy parent, or an administrative assistant.

She's a fricken bus driver. Nothing more - nothing less.

The kids in question should be denied the opportunity to ride the bus to school indefinitely. If you can't accept responsibility for your precious little snowflake, don't expect someone else to.

Someone upthread was talking about training they had regarding "talking down" the child or "de-escalating the situation" "identifying stress" - ummm this woman is a bus driver. I don't know what kind of funding your district has but mine is pretty well funded and I'm pretty sure they teach the bus driver how to drive the bus and don't require psychology certificates for employment.

However...

The bus company clearly isn't following it's own protocols when it didn't provide the back-up the driver was asking for.
The bus driver does (appear) to grab a clutch of the girl's hair as the girl tries to push past her.
The bus driver is in a total lose-lose situation: If she let's that girl off the bus she's in trouble and God forbid if that kid got hurt after being let off.
The daughter and friend weren't helping any in this fracas.

So...

Everyone gets a stern talking to and the three girls get detention for a week. (plus that'll keep them off her bus for a while)

But...

Apparently that won't do instead we need to get the driver fired and give the kids sealed records.

You know...

The more I watch the tape the more I wish the bus driver had a stun gun to shut that girl the Hell up.

1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?

Of course. On a bus, the driver is the authority. If the driver says sit down and shut up, then you should sit down and shut up because the consequences of a school bus driving being distracted by a host of boisterous children doesn't bear thinking about. Its the drivers responsibility to ensure the childrens safety, thus the driver decides who is making a nuisance of themselves and why. I seriously doubt, having watched the video, that this bus driver acted out of a sense of malice.

If you feel the driver is out of line, then the thing to do is to make an official complaint.


2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?

There was none. Any one can turn around and say 'thats not what you should have done', but the bottom line is; children do not all respond in the same way and a spoiled child as this girl was was never going to do as she was told because, like so many children in this age, she has become accustomed to a degree of control without consequence in her life that leads her to acting in the manner shown on the video.


3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?

I'm right behind Mrs P. I watched the video and was 'turned off' by the display of irresponsible irreverence displayed by the girl. I didn't see what else the bus driver could have done. The moment the girl decided to rebel against the authority of the bus driver, then the driver was stuck in a catch 22 situation.

The girl, and her parents should face reprimand at the hands of a court. There is more to assault than hitting some one. This girl abused her status as a minor to force her will on a person charged with her safety.

1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?

Of course the bus driver has that right. The girl was a detriment to the safety of everyone on that bus to begin with. She showed a complete lack of respect for the safety of other students, the authority of the person in charge of her safety, and a personal sense of dignity.

It must be so frustrating to have to deal with individuals like the two girls who were disrespecting the responsibility of the bus driver, who likely is paid a minimal salary for having to deal with the segment of today's youth who are a clear indication of what bad parenting will result in.

2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?

If it were me, at the point when it became clear the girl wasn't going to show any respect for my authority I might have sat back down in my driver's seat and waited for authorities to come. It's a shame that this girl will not be called out for her unacceptable behavior. Instead, she is seen by many as a victim.

If it were up to me, like CR said, I would ban her from ever using school transporation again. Let her parents, the ones who have taught her to disrespect others, drive her to and from school.




You hit the nail on the head. There is a clear lack of respect for the job that the bus driver has to do. It is evident in so many aspects of society. Adults are setting examples for their kids. I see it in every facet of society. Even the way police officers are treated is alarming to me. I witnessed a man being pulled over by a police officer. He got out of his car and started yelling at the officer. I happened to be putting gas in my car and a lady standing next to me was also in shock to see the clear and blatant lack of respect. That same guy will be dialing 911 when he needs help and he'll criticize the cops for not coming to save him in time.

The incident we are discussing is but a microcosm of a societal flaw that seems to be getting worse as populations grow.

3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?

The parents of this girl should be help accountable, as she is a minor. Maybe if we start holding parents accountable for the actions of their offspring, they will take the job of parenting a little more seriously.

...bandwagon time....

Death to Critical Thinking!


Oh they were both afraid throughout the video its easy to see in their stances even if the audio is a bit fuzzy.

All I'm saying here is be realistic.

Should the kid have sit down and shut up? Yes, absolutely and thats why she has culpability

So now what? Is everything that happens next automatically gravy?

That's my question to all of you, does the end of a peaceful bus ride justify any means to achieve it. Were do we draw the line?

For a person who's aligned themselves with a party that talks about the greater good for all the answer is easy... Yes.

For a person like me who tries to follow the rules of society the answer is also Yes.

So, what happens next? Since the girl in question refused to do what she clearly was supposed to do, it became the bus driver's problem? Should they put that in an employee manual:


Explain your "critical thinking" comment to us obvious retards please.

Ah, I'm no democrat... they are far too conservative for my tastes.

In any case I'm all for the greater good, but I'm also for the least-harmful way to achieve that end.

You scoffed a bit when I talked about deescalation training but that something I learned just to get a part-time job at a treatment center. It's not rocket science it's SAMA they teach this stuff to cubicle jockeys for pete's sake.



There has to be a protocol for a confrontational student, fact is dealing with bratty kids is part and parcel of being a bus driver. It's expected.

I mean all this knee jerk talk of the good old days of corporal punishment (or CR brave new world of tazers) is just impractical. Deal with reality with a clear head I always say.

Bratty? You call these "bratty"?

"Let me off this &#^$ing bus!!"

"Don't touch my boobs, you pervert!"

Id' hate to see your definition of a punk kid.

Had a couple questions directed at me- so I will answer them

1) AS the policy suggests- it is a danger/safety issue. At that point- least restrictive possible, as long as safety is maintained- in fact, the bus driver was TOO slow to react, if anything (not that I am blaming her for being slow to react, I think she exhibited remarkable restraint actually)

So there is really no de-escalation here, except "crisis management" in the safety arena

I actually teach de-escalation and am a "Mandt" instructor- or rather was- I got tired of the fecal matter that is spread about it at this point- most of those "classes" are not about de-escalation at all- it is all about minimizing liability and protecting the employer- NOT the employee.

The employer says, to cover thier butts "gee, we sent them to this accredited school to deal with combative students...."

Okay- there are lots of things that do work- unless the student/Patient/ whatever doesn't WANT to de-escalate- and, in fact, pushes into the point that staff MUST react.

"Know your limitations and the limitations of this course"

"Whenever you physically interact with someone, you both stand the chance of getting hurt"

"Understand your place in the Crisis cycle"

"Keep your hands opened and relaxed"

how much does this help me when I am faced with a two hundred pound murderer looking for a "freebie"?

And I don't get ANY protective equipment- I am just REALLY good at bobbing and weaving until help arrives.

What this illustrates, unfortunately, is the need for a official police officer (not rent-a-cops) on each and every bus.

Sound kinda expensive, don't it?

WE always seem to think this happens "in the inner city"- well, actually- it is the middle class white kids that seem the most entitled and spoiled.

Inner city groups that are of an ethnicity other than white, or poor white kids, are usually happy to be there, in a safe, warm enviroment.



I deal with these little wastes of oxygen all the time- some we are able to save- but most of this stripe- we can not. The abused poor kid from a bad home are almost always salvagable- it is the privileged/entitled/spoiled white kid that I see as almst always unredeemable- they have just been allowed free riegn too long.


Yep, I really think tazers and police training is appropriate for all bus drivers, and a mandatory "behavior code" signed by every parent, that one infraction of this nature, will cause them to be permanently barred from any public school, and has hundreds of thousands of dollars of fines to the parents, is the only way to stop some real violence in the future.

We need some serious protections for bus drivers and students, from parents and students.

IMO the school bus is a place that is still under school authority. The display of rude aggressive stupidity by several students is just a minor example of how bad it has gotten in and around out education system.

I would expel all students involved in that especially the big mouth with the phone for at least a month.


Looks like they charged everyone.

PHOENIX — Police on Friday charged a driver with aggravated assault and disorderly conduct in connection with a brawl involving three students on an Arizona school bus, MyFoxPhoenix.com reported.

In addition, the 15-year-old was charged with aggravated assault and disorderly conduct, and the 14- and 16-year-olds were charged with disorderly conduct.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332050,00.html

The driver gets the shaft though. Assault is a felony in most places. She will lose here job – sounds quite unfair to me.

I think Turnea is right are wrong.

Let's start off topic then go to topic.

As a society we have moved away from the "it takes a village" mentality of raising our children. DR, CR, BA, Mrs P, or who ever else, how would you all feel if a stranger caught your kid doing something wrong or destructive and came over and smacked the living crap out your kid. What if they just took off their belt and started to spank one of your children. I had a talk with my wife about allowing a babysitter to spank our kids. She was adamant, I mean adamant that never will that happen. We don't even let people we know and who know our kids physically discipline our children. Only we are to physically discipline our kids and some don't believe we should be able to do that as parents.

Now the answer to my question above is pretty irrelevant because as a society we HAVE moved to the point where someone physically disciplining our children, even when it is warranted. But if you believe that you are the only one who should spank hit smack,pull the ear, whatever to your kids than you are doubly not "critically thinking, as Turnea commented.

DR


Ok I will, but just remember I didn't call all of you retarded, you did!!

The Bus driver has the right to to control the bus. She has the right to pull it over. But, she is an adult and needs to think like one and not act like one with the same age and mental prowess, as a 14 year old drama queen.

Again we are taking a breadth to critically think here right.

Your the bus driver, your the adult, you stop the bus and plan to do WHAT!?!?!

Now she stops the bus to get control, but loses more control, because in this situation you can't get control by stopping a bus. Now the young girl is in the Bus drivers face. Now the bus driver has made it about ego. She is going to show this little girl who's in charge. If the little girl is a raging brat, the bus driver is just as much a fully grown raging idiot!

Either let the girl off the bus or drive the bus, the back and forth is escalating the situation creating a more dangerous situation. The girl can't get off a moving bus. Take her to school or her stop and report the incident. That is what the adult should do.

Why in the world would stop the bus, get out your seat and attempt to impose a physical authority you don't have. You think the little girl doesn't think.. "she's not allowed to hit me" She knows it's a bluff. And then when that bluff is called the bus drivers ego takes over.


The kid is WRONG, but the kid is still a kid... what's the bus drivers excuse for acting just like the kid in the "I'm tougher than you kid??"

1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?
Sure, but in this situation she should have just kept on driving and not worried about it. I'm not sure what caused the lady to stop the bus, but it appears that in doing so, she made things worse. The bus driver had the mental capacity of ...well, a bus driver. The bus drivers initial questioning of the child was an attempt to belittle her. Confrontations are always avoided when one of the parties, has a way to gracefully back out. In doing so, a compromise is reached and peace is achieved.

Did I miss a societal promotion? When did bus drivers become the unreproachable icons of authority? I saw a short fat lady with education just good enough to pass a driver's test getting into a head-rolling, finger-waving bitchfest with a teenie-bopper. Bus driver folks, bus driver. This lady took her GED to the DMV to get herself off WIC, but now she's SOL.

2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?
Why can't the bus driver let the kid off the bus? There were numerous alternatives, physical confrontation was the last one. The bus driver could have told the kid to wait and get her a ride, or called the school, her dispatcher, the cops, someone. Instead, she stands in front of the door and engages in child-like behavior. The adult is supposed to behave like an adult.

3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?
This is easy, pull them both into the office. Explain what they did wrong. Suspension for the driver and in-school detention for the student, followed by a week of moderated bus rides or transfer the bus driver to a different route.

Ted, don't ever hold a position of authority. The only thing I want to see you holding is a broom, or a mop. OK, maybe a shoe-shine kit, but beyond that, you're too dangerous to society.

I want to add...

I thought I had seen the video on the news, but then I looked at the video from the link. I suggest if anyone made the same mistake... they look at this video instead of the edited news clip.

This Bus Driver is HORRIBLE.

She start physically pushing the girl.. (1:00) She starts cussing at the teen... "F___ you, you Bi___" (1:28) she throws the girls phone (1:42) when the girl tries to give the bus driver the phone with her MOM on the phone. And she is touching the girks breast.

I never saw the beginning.....

But wow.. this bus driver doesn't stop the bus to gain control. The Bus driver stopped the bus to START a confrontation.

She stops the bus and just calls the girl out to "explan why you are riding a bus to the rest of the kids" So the bus driver makes a big deal of the girl riding the bus.... then the bus driver makes a big deal of the girl getting of the bus.

Then when the girl goes to get HER phone that the bus driver is throwing around the bus driver decides to open up a can of Whoopin... only thing is... oops.. the girl fought back.

Whenever I saw this it always started with the child screaming at an adult, but that isn't how it happened.

The kid says "I'm going to call my mom so you can talk to her." the bus driver answers.... "i'm going to call the police" Hello anyone see an issue here?

So now I ask all of you this. If your child called you and you asked them to put you on the phone with the adult in the confrontation, how would you feel that the adult would not talk to you about your kid, but instead throw the phone.

This bus driver created such an unsafe environment that at the very end of the tape.... the kids are in so much shock that 90 percent of them run off the bus through emergency exit.

The bus driver mentality in a nutshell.

I'm going to belittle this kid, I'm going to push this kid, I'm going to disrespect the kid and her mother, I'm going to cuss at this kid, i'm going to smack this kid around.

Did I mention that there was no reason to pull the bus over??

And Gee, I wonder why we have gangsters and thugs in school running rampant- because of just this kind of attitude. I pretty much can bet that county will be upping taxes in that area to pay for bus security officers or police now. We have stepped up to having 2-3 adults per bus ourselves now.

That is to make sure we don't have stuff like this- when we had a kid left on a bus, that alone was enough to step it up. But guess what- we needed a bond the next year to pay for it- upping everyone's taxes. In this case- the bus driver was correctly fired.

There have been some disturbances on buses, a kid or two ended up in plastic restraints, and kicked out of the system, and in juvenile hall until 18 years old. Parental rights terminated.

THAT is the way to deal with a situation like this fellas.

But it is the lack of responsibility placed on the teen and parents in this situation that will make EVERYONE pay.

Ya, good going- let the punk kid who should be tazed and arrested for her behavior get off with a slapped wrist.

This is why school uniforms, school vouchers, and not wanting to pay for school bonds every time they come up to vote- and everything else a "social conservative" base thier arguments upon- because kids are allowed to get away with this in our schools.

We will have to abandon our public schools because of parents and kids like this- and end up having only good education for those that can afford it, because if I see a school or law enforcement district allow this kind of thing without PERMANENT expulsion from ANY public school in the state, and some fines on the teen that the parent will feel deep, deep in thier pocket book- you will quickly see my back as I take my kids somewhere safe and orderly.

Luckily, I do live in an area that blames the right people, and the right person will be jailed.

And when that changes, I will literally move out of the district- immediately.

Taking out a belt? Smacking the living crap? For Criminy's sake. The bus driver did not physically discipline this girl. She tried to make her sit back in her seat. To use your above analogy, that would be the equivalent of a store owner stopping a teen from bolting with something taken from the store by grabbing their arm, holding it, and waiting for the authorities. This "child" is the age of a babysitter, incidentally, old enough to take care of a child herself and old enough to understand that her actions have consequences. Not the equivalent of a toddler.

turnea



Exactly!, and her ineptness in handling the situation is well documented. If the girl is seated, why is the bus pulled over? Furthermore, whatever she was saying, wasn't quite cutting it as the girl then got up and approached her. The driver then compounded that screw up by grabbing the girl's wrist needlessly. The absolute last thing you want to do is have a head to head conflict, that's what they want! Instead, you use other strategies.

Mrs. Pigpen



The police have charged her, though I think it's aggravated assault. Laying your hands on others without permission is an offense. If we all did things like that, we would regress to the pre-k years.



At the beginning of the clip, the girl is seated. Now a lot of this depends on protocol. If she is seated and is cussing or something, she won't get off a moving bus! It's not like you just push the doors and you're out. If it was necessary to pull over the bus, she should'veonly blocked the passageway out and not have grabbed the girl's wrist first. Furthermore, what right did she have grabbing at the cell phone? Let the brat call and direct her back to her seat by pointing the direction to sit down.

Baphomet's_Advocate:


I work at a state facility for juvenile girls. The number one committing offense is assault. Maintenance, cooks, and even administrative paper-pusher types all have mandatory 40 hour training in de-escalation training. It isn't that hard to do and it's smart to have everyone trained. Public schools are a whole different ball of wax, but at facilities like mine, a written policy for de-escalation and intervention skills is mandatory for American Correctional Association accreditation. There is no excuse why people can't be trained for it. If you interact with kids, you need it-it's that simple.



I've taught girls who have stabbed people with pencils, who are facing adult charges after having pulled out large clumps of hair, requiring workers to get counseling and stress management debriefing, not to mention girls who have pulled guns on people. I do this thing each and every day. I've had to de-escalate girls determined to pick a fight with me. It requires you to think one step ahead of them and features thing like "parallel talk," "false choice," tactices, not to mention a heck of a lot of rapport building. It isn't easy BA, but it's possible and the bus driver showed a complete lack of Intelligence in how she handled it. In a situation like that, someone has to be the adult. Grabbing at people and trying to manhandle them FIRST is unbelievably stupid. Now when the first hand goes on you, then that's different. No one is advocating that you should never physically intervene, but if you are competent at mental talking down, you won't have to practice your physical intervention skills.

To me, this isn't about political parties and I'm quite surprised that the mentioning of them would come up here, but then again, maybe I'm not. This issue is more complicated than an Archie Bunker, slap-the-knee-darn-right!-reflex reaction.

I see, if someone attacked your mother you wouldn't defend her? That's pre-K? Okay.

I have to ask, did you ride the bus in middle/highschool? I was "assaulted" on a daily basis and no one was ever charged. I would have loved a bus driver to step in and stop it. Once, someone grabbed my ponytail and dragged my down the eisle by my hair. No one said a word. I was groped nearly every day. Riding on the school bus is like being shut into a penitentiary without a guard for a half hour.

********

Now that the bus driver has been suspended, I should add:

Who should be punished, and why? And How?

Anyone and everyone who had a part in the suspension of this bus driver should have to drive a school bus for a year.

She's a bus driver. Her job is to drive the damned bus. The 15 year old should have sat down. We don't see everything in the video. We're only seeing what happened AFTER she stopped the bus not what led up to it.

My wife, BTW, said essentially "How would you feel if this happened to our son?" To which I replied, "Our kid wouldn't have gotten in this situation."

I think this was also the attitude of the mother prior to the incident happening. In this mindset, it becomes a lot eaiser to defend your children once they do something wrong as you seek a justifier. Even though you're probably active in your child's life and therefore more of an expert on saying such things, I've noticed some parents who say that are always absent until the Consequence Express starts rolling in. So it's a likely situation that the mother of this child creating this flack is simply in disbelief that her precious daughter could ever talk down to The Man in any shape, form or fashion. Which, most reasonable people know is an illusion until itself.

You are comparing an institution where violent and troubled youth are sent, to a school bus whose function is driving kids to and from school. To expect a person to have the psychological expertise to handle unexpected situations like the one that occurred is asking too much. How about that girl be asked to sit in her seat and be quiet for however many minutes it takes to get her to her destination.

Furthermore, to train every school bus driver to deal with situations like the one that occurred costs the taxpayers more money. I would sooner support the girl getting counseling on her mommy and daddy's dime.




Now look who is "blaming the victim". Where are all the parents of those youth whose tempers you help de-escalate? Are they not the truly culpable party? Yet, there is little mention of parental responsibility. Instead, a school bus driver, undoubtedly making close to minimum wage, is now supposed to exert the skills of a highly trained therapist. That is ABSURD.


Boy, it's a sad state of affairs when teenage girls who should know better are behaving like criminals, and people are running to defend their supposed right to behave in that fashion with no culpability.




If that girl didn't run to the defense of her mother I would think there is something very wrong with her. It is a natural instinct to defend someone you care about, especially your mom.

It took me about two days of training, though we renew every year or so.

Learning how to deal with a confrontational student is too much to ask of a bus driver.

Man, we really must think these people are idiots.


Are you of the opinion the bus driver did absolutely nothing wrong?

Let's try and get a handle on the actual points of debate.

Everyone gets quite harped up on the idea of protecting kids, so I imagine this would be a welcomed expense. After all, flight attendants are trained in health and safety as well as having to deal with unruly passangers. I seen no reason why bus drivers, who by and large perform the same function with a younger audience as flight attendance, why these people shouldn't be qualified. After all, putting children on a speeding metal deathtrap may seem peachy to some parents, but one mistake and then it becomes a top story on the six o'clock news.

I'd feel a lot better about the state of education across the board if we would hire professionals with qualifications and not settle for able bodies.

CR I'm not sure what attitude you are talking about, but I have to agree with you. If we were only smart enough to carry around tazers and just start tazering kids who step out of line this situation will be resolved... well up until kids start dying here and there from heart attacks... but hey its all in the name of rule and order right??

Mrs P


Exactly Mrs P. This is not a toddler. Do you understand that?? If I am stealing from a store like in your analogy, and the clerk decides to hold me... he better be able to hold me. And if it some old man trying to hold me while i'm a 16 17 year old kid... and I am stronger or just as stronger, it is STUPID for the adult male to challenge me.

Mrs P you and others are willfully neglecting to see the actions of the Bus Driver. Adults don't start confrontations with children when not necessary. You are going to ignore the fact that the bus driver pulls over the bus just to get her jolly's off by belittling the teen on why she has to ride the bus.

Then after doing that she is going to escalate it to a physical confrontation. And then when she figures out... damn this girl is just as strong as me... She is going to escalate it by telling the child "f___ you you B___". Then after the girl is giving her the phone with her mother on the phone she is going to escalate it by throwing the phone. Then she punches the girl in the chest, smacks her hands... Then when the girl tries to push past the bus driver to get her phone, the bus driver attacks the girl....




maybe your past experiences are clouding your judgement. And I'm not being sarcastic or mean when I say this. As you watch the video you see the girl on the pphone minding her own business. It is not unruly. She's not jumping in her seat. She is not starting a commotion. The bus driver is not establishing order How can any of you look at this video... and say that?? She is responsible for the chaos.



BA


LOL if your kid picks up any of your mannerisms he'll be the first to say something smart out of his mouth

Agreed we don't see what has the bus driver heated... but whatever it is... it isn't happening when the bus driver pulls over the bus. When the video is starting the bus is moving, and the girl is just sitting in her seat on the phone, agreed???

The only thing that changed this is the escalation of the bus driver.

edited to add

Doomed Planet



If you look at the video DP you'll see that the parent was on the phone that the bus driver threw on the ground... several times. Anybody know why the bus driver refused to explain the situation to the mother?? oh that's right... because the bus driver was out of control!!

It's not that I think bus drivers are idiots. Their job is to DRIVE A BUS, not to be a counselor, anger-management specialist, baby-sitter, police officer, etc. They are there to get students from point A to point B. If a student cannot sit and obey the rules they should be removed and barred from ever taking that bus again.




Like I just told Turnea, it's not their job to be the crisis negotiator for unruly kids. And the minute we start placating the actions of juvenile delinquents, we will perpetuate the problem. There should be a no tolerance policy for anyone who behaves as that girl did. The police are called, she is removed from the bus, end of story. No mommy-coddling or negotiating is necessary.




I did look at the video. I saw the girl say that the bus driver punched her. I saw no punch. Furthermore, I would love to know how many other times this girl has been a problem to others, INCLUDING her parents. There are rules when riding on public transportation. There are rules when you go into a movie theater, the mall, a restaurant, etc. That girl did not follow the rules and the bus driver called her on it. If you want to defend the right of a teenager to act inappropriately, that is your right as a debater. I still stand behind the actions of the bus driver.

*I mentioned in a previous thread that I might have handled it differently once I saw the out-of-line girl had no sense of respect, but I do not fault the bus driver AT ALL for how she handled it.

Not in the real world.

I think any bus driver who isn't qualified is basic deescalation techniques, CPR, First Aid, etc. is really in the wrong profession.

I think the problem is that people are being impractical. The world is more complicated than your job title. They're are also reasonable preparation for likely problems.

I think confrontational students on the bus is about as obvious as it gets.

Realizing that we don't see what happens before the bus driver pulls over the bus, let's examine what we DO see...

Video begins with students in their seats (there is a boy at the back of the bus who gets up when the bus stops).

Several kids are talking on phones.

Bus driver is in the process of stopping the bus for reasons unknown (I assume it's because the student, Samantha, was talking since Samantha makes reference to this later in the video)

Bus driver gets up out of her seat and approaches student. Bus driver says "Alright Sammy, I need you to explain something to these guys...what are you doing on this bus? Why are you on this bus?" (she is using a mocking/sarcastic tone here - note: if bus driver thought Sammy should not be on the bus, this should have been dealt with before the bus ever started moving)

Sammy replies "Uh, because I'm going to school...it's the way I transport myself..."(bus driver cuts in)

"It's probably because it's the only way you can get to and from school"

Sammy shakes her head "no"

Bus driver says "Why don't you find another way then...(unintelligible)...it's not the only way, because apparently you don't appreciate it. Look at all these people (unintelligible)"

Sammy says "Seriously", to which the bus driver responds "seriously"

Sammy gets up and says "I'm getting off the bus now", then the bus driver says "no you're not leaving" and pushes her back to her seat.

Now, the bus driver made NUMEROUS mistakes here, the most obvious one being pushing the student back toward her seat. We as adults are looking at this situation as adults, lest we not forget. Most kids don't know bus stop protocol, so when a bus driver says "why don't you find another way" while the bus is stopped, a natural response would likely be to do just that. All the bus driver would have to do is explain to the kid that she wasn't allowed to get off the bus at that location. Okay, really, all the bus driver had to do was drive the kid to the stop, let her off, then take up any compaints she had with a particular student with her supervisors. THAT would have been the smart thing to do.

The bus driver created this situation by her actions. We aren't privy to whatever led to the stopping of the bus (that information sure would be helpful), so we can only base our opinions on what takes place from the time the video footage starts. Kids are in their seats and talking on phones. No one is acting inappropriately or disruptively from anything I can see...that only happens AFTER the bus driver gets up and confronts the student.

Make no mistake about it, my daughter would be smart enough to know that she should have simply followed the bus driver's directions and returned to her seat and you'd better beleive she'd be in big trouble if she reacted the way this girl reacted. I'm not excusing the student's behavior in any way. But to come to this bus driver's defense just doesn't make any sense to me. All of these people are to blame. The bus driver, the first student, the second student, the bus driver's daughter...they are all at fault here and thankfully they were all reprimanded for their culpability. The number of people completely excusing the bus driver's actions is just astonishing.

No I don't agree. The ~10 minute version seems to start when the bus is already stopped. There's a boy in the back of the bus who seems to be questioning the stopping of the bus. It's tough to say for sure though.

I notice too that the kids on the bus seem to be ticked off at the girl. I could be mistaken about that.

DP



Then drive the bus and stop starting fights with students



I don't defend the right for a teenager to act inappropriately, but nor am I going to defend the actions of an adult that is being childish. none of you are addressing this particular situation. The bus was orderly when she pulled over the bus. If a situation happened prior, it was not happening at the time. The bus driver could simply drop off the kids at their stops and report whatever incident. Why is the bus driver causing the commotion?

Your stance is that of stubbornness, the same as the bus driver and therfore it is appropriate you stand behind her actions.

QUOTE

Did the bus driver have any respect or was her only concern was to show the lowly students how she was the HBIC... (Head Busser in Charge)

BA

You don't agree but you don't know for sure..

Alright from the point you see the camera on.. what is the girl doing and what is the bus driver doing?? Is everyone in their seats?? Is there a commotion going on that the bus driver is getting up to stop??

I think it is obvious the students were divided... and some just wanted to get to the destination. but at the end you hear another young man calling his mom saying the bus driver is psycho (which she was). She starts pushing the student then calls the police or whoever saying she is being assaulted.

Well, how nice - now the bus driver is a psycho. This from the party of tolerance.

I'm glad most people don't have your attitude when it comes to unruly kids. Otherwise, kids would roam free to do whatever they want because a response could be deemed "psycho".

Let's say the bus driver was a babysitter instead. Maybe she was house sitting/baby sitting for you while your spouse and you went away for a couple days on business. Many would agree allowing a 15 year old to stay home alone for several days would not be appropriate. So, all the babysitter had to do was make sure your kids are safe, are eating, going to school, or whatever things they do are happening normally.

But the kid decides she's going to go outside 11 o'clock at night and basically, walk the neighborhood. So basically what you are saying, is that the babysitter should not attempt to keep your kid from walking the streets because those efforts could be construed as psycho. Fundamentally, you are saying that if your kid decided to leave the house and walk the streets, there is nothing stopping her/him from doing so if asking the child not to doesn't work. For the babysitter not to become part of the problem, she should allow your kid to do whatever he/she chooses if a confrontation could ensue.

You can't see how ridiculous this argument looks? If the kid didn't act like a punk, there would be no confrontation - it's as simple as that. You want the bus driver to share accountability for a problem she did not create. If the kid has a problem with the bus driver, fine - tell your parents, teachers, guidance counselor, or whoever else you need to help resolve the problem. Rebelling is not an answer nor is it permitted. That bus driver is charged with the safety of those kids on the bus.

If a bus driver allowed kids off the bus because of their demands on a bus my daughter was riding in, I would go absolutely fricken ballistic. There would be a confrontation with school officials that would make this one seem live a love-fest. This is when your lack of responsibility becomes my problem.

In fact, I could probably say with a reasonable amount of confidence that if my kid rode that bus with this kid who was being a problem, I would demand that kid never be allowed on that bus again as long as my daughter was riding in it. I don't want her in a bus where confrontations occur on a level that causes that bus to deviate one millimeter from it's scheduled stops. I don't want a bus standing still with my daughter in it while the bus driver is distracted by confrontations. I don't want my daughter to ride in a bus where the driver does anything but drive. Period. End of story.

Your kid's right to pitch a fit does not override my demand that the bus take my daughter right home while stopping only when it's supposed to. The parents of all the other kids in that bus deserve the same expectations as me.

You're talking around each other.

All droop is saying is that it's smarter to just get the bus moving so that she can't get off than to get into a physical confrontation.

Houses don't move...

Nobody covers themselves with glory in the video clip (though seeing another few minutes of footage from before the start of the clip linked in the opening post might easily change a lot of perceptions - maybe this Samantha creature had spent the whole journey singing "the driver is a retard" to the tune of Camptown Races?)

This Samantha kid is a horrible brat who needs a thick ear, but it is not the place of a bus driver to give it to her. I went to school on a bus and it was generally the older kids - prefect level - who doled out the discipline, not the drivers or other passengers (it was ordinary public transport we used, not exclusive-use school buses). Unfortunately, with drivers only needing to be 16 in most of the USA, and cars (and petrol) being cheap by international standards, most of the kids that are old/mature enough to fill this sort of role are not riding on school buses anyway, which is a shame as I found (from both directions, i.e. being an annoying kid then growing into a more mature one) that this kind of system worked well. Better than a security camera and an after-the-event prosecution, anyway.

The bus driver needs some training in how to deal with stroppy kids - she's not JUST a bus driver, or else all she would do is drive empty buses around all day. Part and parcel of the job of bus driving is dealing with passengers, and that include stroppy little misses, dealing with bullying, vomiting drunks (though hopefully not on school runs), etc. The driver's intentions may or my not have been noble - without the missing preamble footage I can't tell. What I can see is that she made a total hash of whatever she thought she was doing.

I'm slightly confused here.

Those of you who are against the bus driver (no one seems to be for the screechy girl) - is it because she is an authority figure who misused/abused her authority? Or is it something else?

The gist of the Law & Order folks appears to be if the girl had just sat down and shut up none of this ever would have happened... Or am I misreading your responses?

I wouldn't even say misused authority so much as simply thoroughly screwed up the situation.

She just clearly didn't know what to do and it shows.

The fact that she got physical is why the state is charging her with a crime. What about that authority my Law and Order friends?

(That reminds me of Titus's sig which had me laughing for a full day )

Stop trying to be fair... we are not talking around each other DR is being willfully stubborn. Notice how people have not addressed the points I make, or KMSouthern, or you for that matter.

All I wrote and DR harps on the fact I call the bus Driver a psycho.... it's hyperbole DR you can address some of my other points at anytime


Well people of tolerance aren't to tolerent of intolerent behavior and attitudes, now are we??

If people had my attitude towards kids there would be a lot more smack down going on in the world... but like I posed earlier... who hereis for allowing me a total stranger to smack the living crap out of your kid if if I deem your kid is acting out of line?? Any takers... No one?? That's what i thought.



Let's not... because it is this situation that has shaped my view on this situation. THIS bus driver did everything WRONG!!

Oh the girl is in her seat on the phone she did"something" to irritate me earlier... well let me pull over this bus and tell her how much she needs this bus and embarass her infront of her peers.... oops.... now since I made a big deal of how much she needs this bus she wants to get off...

Well she now demands to get off the bus, but I'm not letting her... how about I push her back to her seat... oops.... this little girl is towering over me and is just as strong as me.

Well I can't physically make her take her seat I guess I'll just push her, cuss her, oh yeah a screaming match with teenager on a bus, that is going to resolve this situation... oops...

Now, this little tramp is going to call her mom... i'll show her... i'm going to call the police... "help I'm being assaulted by the student I just assaulted..." oops... better leave that last part out...


Well I'll be damn now this little girl has her mother on the phone, maybe if I talk to the mother I can explain the situation and the mother can talk her daughter down... naw why be civilized... get the phone with the parent on and sling it to the ground, "I'm running this @$%@$#%$, this is my ^&%&$#@^ bus!!" oops...

Now this little &*%$$^& has the @#$^%^&@%# audacity to try to push past me and get her god @*&%^ phone. I'm going to yoke the $%@# out of this @!%# little*%^&^& OOOOOPS!!! She is fighting me back!!!

Hell yeah!!! BAM!! It's on and popping, I got my daughter here now we gonna jump this little brat!! GET SOME!! YEAH!!!! OOOOOOOPPPPPPSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanted to show the student who was in control, I wanted to stop that one student from getting off the bus.... now I've lost all control and most of kids have just opened the emergency door and bolted like roaches when the lights turn on. A parent is banging on the door outside the bus............. what just happened and how did it get so out of control??


So you'd rather your daughter sees a situation get completely out of control like this one?? You'd feel safer with your daughters bus driver if you knew that the bus driver was willing to open up a can of whoop butt on your daughter and anyone else?? Hey, people out of prisons are looking for jobs.. nothing like a scary figure to set those brats straight right??



Hey I'm with you... BUT, you are not making sense. The student didn't start the confrontation. The student wasn't doing anything so wrong that the bus needed to be pulled over. You don't want you daughter riding with a student starting a confrontation... but you are cool with your daughter riding with a bus driver that starts confrontations with students... yeah, DR that makes sense.



When exactly are you willing to debate this situation, because I don't know what you are talking about. Have you looked at the video?? The bus driver stops the bus to pitch a fit... the student was not driving.. the student was not screaming.. the student was not throwing a fit...

That's the part I'm not getting, why are you guys pretending that you are not seeing the bus driver start the confrontation

BA



Her authority as a bus driver extends only to the point of getting those kids home safely. She created an unsafe environment because of her ego. If Samantha was doing something before we see the video, which she may have been... she no longer was.. so all the driver had to do was drop her off and report to those with greater authority than herself.

Where does her responsibilities stop? If a student shoots another student in the head, is it the bus driver's responsibility to handle the situation correctly? If a student starts choking her in an attempt to get hold of the steering wheel, is it the bus driver's responsibility to handle the situation correctly?

My point is, if her job is more than picking up and dropping off kids to and from school safely and in a timely manner, where do her responsibilities stop? Some arbitrary level of violence or one that makes you feel better?

You said it; not much more to add. The problem with kids like this one is they just do not respect authority. They must do what the driver says--period. No way can that driver let the kid off the bus--the school is in loco parentis for that child, who is not the age of majority.

I know but I'm in a charitable mood .

Besides I think it's getting results...


Ironically, enough SAMA training does prepare one for the latter (the trusty choke release).

The former I think we all know, call the cops and haul the ... butt.

...but in general her job responsibilities end with being able to deal with thing that a bus driver is more likely than not to encounter at some point.

"Punk kids" seems pretty likely to me.

1. Does a Bus Driver have the right to pull over and regain control of students?

I believe a bus driver should have that right; however, I don’t know what that particular school district’s rules are for controlling disruptive passengers, but I think it is far safer to do it from a stationary position than while driving.

2. Since the Bus Driver can't just let kids off, what would have been a better way to handle the situation when the student became confrontative?

I would like to believe a 50-something year old woman would be able to control a bratty teenage girl without resorting to physical violence. But, in this day and age, it comes as little surprise. Violence seems to be a first option, rather than a last one. What a great lesson to give her daughter. I know this is 20-20 hindsight, but isn't there a system in place to instruct drivers how to handle these situations? Perhaps a call to someone in authority at the school might have been a better way to handle the situation? Or heck, since so many here think teachers ought to be allowed to carry weapons in class; how about allowing bus drivers to pack heat - she could've just blown the kid's head off - end of problem <bad jk>.

3. Who should be punished, and why? And How?

I saw nothing in the coverage of any real injuries incurred as a result of the scuffle. Charges of disorderly conduct have been levied against the driver and the girl. That seems fair. However, seeing as how this is Maricopa County, the driver may end up being the victim of Sheriff Joe’s tent prison (which I think would be going too far), while the student may get a slap on the wrist, suspension and possibly some community service, and a tale to embroider about how she “kicked the driver’s ---“

That being said, an adult should not resort to physical violence against a minor. Lowering herself to that level removes any sense of authority she may have held. Her behavior was shameful. My gut feeling is that she should be fired from her job as driver, because she is obviously not psychologically equipped to deal with a busload of rambunctious teenagers.

About the only person in this sorry incident who acted intelligently was the boy who called the cops. Pretty sad when a kid is more mature than the adult.