Full Version: Everybody loves America?
The entire world is against our actions in the middle east. We are hated as neo-imperalists all over the 3rd world. We say you are either with us or against us. Then why is our country's culture dominant? Why do so many people want to come to our country?
I don't think enough people realize the driving factor in life is to be happy and get nice stuff. Life isn't about politics. Life is about being happy. Politics doesn't do that. The desire for freedom, clean water, food, women's rights, health care and gap jeans is more powerful then politics. America is a really nice country. We are also the one of the only countries that lets people become true Americans. I don't think all the hate in the Arab world is as strong as american freedom and money.
I don't think enough people realize the driving factor in life is to be happy and get nice stuff. Life isn't about politics. Life is about being happy. Politics doesn't do that. The desire for freedom, clean water, food, women's rights, health care and gap jeans is more powerful then politics. America is a really nice country. We are also the one of the only countries that lets people become true Americans. I don't think all the hate in the Arab world is as strong as american freedom and money.
I agree, that we have a wonderful country. I'm glad that we have elections without tanks in the streets and that the elections actually occur on a regular basis.
Many throughout the world admire what our country has maintained for our citizens -- stability. Although, many hate our power, influence and bull dog tactics. Someday, future generations will pay for this dearly.
Many throughout the world admire what our country has maintained for our citizens -- stability. Although, many hate our power, influence and bull dog tactics. Someday, future generations will pay for this dearly.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Mar 23 2003, 06:49 AM)
The entire world is against our actions in the middle east. We are hated as neo-imperalists all over the 3rd world. We say you are either with us or against us. Then why is our country's culture dominant? Why do so many people want to come to our country?
You're lumping a lot of stuff together there. I can dissaprove of American politics and still enjoy American culture. (Although I prefer Canadian artists myself...)
To answer your first question though; I personally think that "American" culture is a bit of a misnomer. The culture that you speak of is an amalgamation of influences ranging from European to African to South American (etc.,); which has been mass-produced and sold the world over where familiar elements appeal to some; and the the novelty of the "other" appeals to other. But that's just my theory. I'd be happy to discuss it elsewhere.
In answer to your second question I think I can be more brief (I can hear the applauding...) If I were living in abject poverty or in fear of my life on a daily basis I would want to go someplace better myself. The entire world (well, a large portion of it anyways) is against your actions in the Middle East, but a lot of those same countries also maintain a much lower standard of living, which cannot just be simplified down to them being less capitalistic or free.
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I don't think enough people realize the driving factor in life is to be happy and get nice stuff.
That may be the driving factor in your life. In someone like Mother Teresa's life for example the desire to help the sick and dying was the driving force. For everyone it is a little different. In America the culture preaches the pursuit of happiness and "nice stuff," as said goals. (And I'm not assigning a value judgement there.)
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The desire for freedom, clean water, food, women's rights, health care and gap jeans is more powerful then politics.
You do realize that other countries have this right? Especially on the health-care front...
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We are also the one of the only countries that lets people become true Americans.
America is the only country that "lets" people become a true American, just like Canada is the only country that lets someone become a true Canadian. Unless you're confusing citizenship with some sort of nationalized ideal. American=Homo Superior does it?
Another thing that contributes to people disliking us is that our nationals are have a reputation for being very, very rude when theyr'e abroad.
QUOTE(Rattlesnake @ Mar 23 2003, 07:41 AM)
Another thing that contributes to people disliking us is that our nationals are have a reputation for being very, very rude when theyr'e abroad.
[QUOTE]
Oh, My! I've been 'abroad' a LOT, and encountered just the opposite. We have a very good reputation as being friendly and cordial when visiting a foreign land.
Are you sure about that? I've known Americans who sew Canadian flags on their backpack's when they're in Europe (especially Holland) to escape the difficulties that American's face.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Mar 23 2003, 07:15 PM)
Are you sure about that? I've known Americans who sew Canadian flags on their backpack's when they're in Europe (especially Holland) to escape the difficulties that American's face.
LOL! You are talking to another! I don't sew a Canadian flag to my backpack, but I have to admit that I tell everyone I'm from Canada when I'm traveling. I don't want to get into any ugly confrontations with the anti-American element that is obviously out there, frankly. That reaction to Americans (IMO) is politically -based, not behaviourly based. The term 'ugly American', I think, stems from the fact that Americans tend to place less value on their appearance. I can sit in a crowded airport and discern who is American, German, Italian, and British without anyone saying a word. If you see a fat slob, that will be an American 99 percent of the time.
My experience tells me otherwise. When I was in Israel a while back the Americans I met while staying in a hotel were rude to me until the found out I was Canadian; and they were still rude.
Link
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What's more hypocritical on our part is the way all too many Americans themselves act when they go to foreign countries.
Friends I've visited in Germany, for example, often remark how Americans fully expect them to speak English and make not even the slightest attempt to learn some German.
"It's as if some of your people are above that,'' one told me a few years ago.
I ndeed, of all the developed nations in the world, U.S. citizens rank lowest in being able to speak or read more than one language -- English.
Yet we're quick to judge others, like those who have spoken another language since they were kids. Tell 'em to speak English, is our retort.
Any wonder the rest of the world considers us to be arrogant?
Friends I've visited in Germany, for example, often remark how Americans fully expect them to speak English and make not even the slightest attempt to learn some German.
"It's as if some of your people are above that,'' one told me a few years ago.
I ndeed, of all the developed nations in the world, U.S. citizens rank lowest in being able to speak or read more than one language -- English.
Yet we're quick to judge others, like those who have spoken another language since they were kids. Tell 'em to speak English, is our retort.
Any wonder the rest of the world considers us to be arrogant?
Link
Ms Pigpen said:
On the contrary I think some Americans abroad are rude arrogant and boorish and their whole attitude can easily classed as ugly. In my experience Americans generally make little to no attempt to speak the local lingo and I have squirmed in embarrassment on many on ocassion when witnessing encounters between americans and locals - most americans seem to believe that by simply raising their voice they'll be understood.....
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The term 'ugly American', I think, stems from the fact that Americans tend to place less value on their appearance.
On the contrary I think some Americans abroad are rude arrogant and boorish and their whole attitude can easily classed as ugly. In my experience Americans generally make little to no attempt to speak the local lingo and I have squirmed in embarrassment on many on ocassion when witnessing encounters between americans and locals - most americans seem to believe that by simply raising their voice they'll be understood.....
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You do realize that other countries have this right? Especially on the health-care front...
Yeah that is true.
Every developed country is participating in the global economy that is facilitated by America.
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most americans seem to believe that by simply raising their voice they'll be understood.....
That is just a generalization like if I said most Europeans are foppish greedy narcissists that wouldn't be true, right.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Mar 23 2003, 02:17 AM)
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The desire for freedom, clean water, food, women's rights, health care and gap jeans is more powerful then politics.
You do realize that other countries have this right? Especially on the health-care front...
What country 'has it right' on all those areas you've quoted?
And as for health-care in particular, all I've read is that there is no system better than that in the US. Socialized health-care has been a monumental failure. There are lengthy waiting lists, sometimes a year or more, for some surgeries and other major treatments. So much so, that when possible people from thos countries come to the US to get their treatment.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Mar 23 2003, 07:53 PM)
My experience tells me otherwise. When I was in Israel a while back the Americans I met while staying in a hotel were rude to me until the found out I was Canadian; and they were still rude.
Link
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What's more hypocritical on our part is the way all too many Americans themselves act when they go to foreign countries.
Friends I've visited in Germany, for example, often remark how Americans fully expect them to speak English and make not even the slightest attempt to learn some German.
"It's as if some of your people are above that,'' one told me a few years ago.
I ndeed, of all the developed nations in the world, U.S. citizens rank lowest in being able to speak or read more than one language -- English.
Yet we're quick to judge others, like those who have spoken another language since they were kids. Tell 'em to speak English, is our retort.
Any wonder the rest of the world considers us to be arrogant?
Friends I've visited in Germany, for example, often remark how Americans fully expect them to speak English and make not even the slightest attempt to learn some German.
"It's as if some of your people are above that,'' one told me a few years ago.
I ndeed, of all the developed nations in the world, U.S. citizens rank lowest in being able to speak or read more than one language -- English.
Yet we're quick to judge others, like those who have spoken another language since they were kids. Tell 'em to speak English, is our retort.
Any wonder the rest of the world considers us to be arrogant?
Link
MY experience tells ME otherwise. I really can't go by anything else. English is the international language, regardless of who 'likes' it and who doesn't. Most (non-third-world) countries require their students to take about 10 years' worth. When in Italy, I speak Italian (I'm half Italian). Usually, the people I'm speaking with will beg me to speak English because they prefer dialect/ they want to practice English/ they hate the way I speak Italian and it hurts their ears..ect. There is no way an American could learn every European language, realistically. Which language would you pick? Each one is exclusive to an area smaller than the state of Texas. Also, there is simply no way to practice. Europeans have a vast advantage because they live in such close proximity to other countries.
As I have mentioned, I am half Italian. The other half is Swiss. I am first generation American, and both sides of my family have mentioned to me that Americans are considered 'friendly', in general. I don't think they were lying, because the situations didn't require it, and they're perfectly willing to say other things about Americans that aren't as becoming! Thus, my response to Rattlesnake who referred to us as having the reputation as 'very very rude' abroad. That being said, I am obviously not the authority on European perceptions of Americans, I can only mention my own experience.
Anyone who has spent time traveling knows that the impression of Americans varies from year to year, and administration to administration. After 9/11, American flags became very popular in Italy. People wore western style clothes, with cowboy style leather fringes. Pointed boots were all the rage. Now, things have changed. We aren't popular because the war in Iraq is unpopular. All of this is politically based, and has little to do with our perceived 'rudeness'.
QUOTE(Musing from the Middle @ Mar 24 2003, 12:30 AM)
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Mar 23 2003, 02:17 AM)
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The desire for freedom, clean water, food, women's rights, health care and gap jeans is more powerful then politics.
You do realize that other countries have this right? Especially on the health-care front...
What country 'has it right' on all those areas you've quoted?
And as for health-care in particular, all I've read is that there is no system better than that in the US. Socialized health-care has been a monumental failure. There are lengthy waiting lists, sometimes a year or more, for some surgeries and other major treatments. So much so, that when possible people from thos countries come to the US to get their treatment.
I meant to say "have THESE rights..." pardon the brain-fart. As for your conclusions on health-care, that has been brought up in other threads but as someone who has used nationalized health-care I can assure you that it is NOT a monumental failure.
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Then why is our country's culture dominant?
Our country does have a culture. Just because we don't beat on drums and chant to the Gods of fire doesn't mean we don't have a culture.
I believe our culture is being an industrious and caring society. We live in a world of 6 billion people in countries that have been around for thousands and thousands of years. In 225 years, 300 million of us pretty much run the world. We worked our butts off and put a man on the moon...many times. And got them home in one piece. We have an economy that allows us to live in relative luxury. We have opportunities to succeed most cultures could only envy.
When disaster strikes in other countries, we're the first people there. How many countries that rely on our international airlines have returned the same when we were decimated by 9/11? How many countries are helping to feed our bums? How many countries come to our aid?
Not only do we feed and care for most of the world, we have to do the same for a decent percentage of our own population who somehow can't survive on their own in the land of opportunity.
We figure it out, design it, sell it, and spend the profits. The rest of the world just whines.
We're not perfect and could improve in many ways. But we're smarter and work harder. And that just *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** everyone off.
I find that post horribly insulting? Americans are smarter and work harder? What are you basing that on? Personal experience? Science? Economics? America is usually around 7th on the HDI rankings on a yearly basis. Other countries have a higher per capita income. Others have a longer life-expectancy or a much more political population.
You want to know what "*** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** everyone off?"
Grand generalizations that the rest of the world is lazy and stupid. Try that. The Romans ran the entire Western World for 400 years. Before them, the Greeks controlled most of Europe (population wise at least) all of the ME, some of the Indian subcontinent and a good portion of Africa. The Mongols overran almost all of Eurasia. The sun "never set" on the British Empire.
Were all of these dominant nations simply harder working and smarter? No. Circumstances led to their rise, and eventual fall. Some within the purview of their control, some outside.
You're doing a great disservice to your country right now. Try asking these questions to the thousands of Americans who ended up in Newfoundland in small towns staying in the very homes of the people there when their planes were grounded after 9/11. Try asking my sister who gave blood specifically for hospital patients in NY. America is always the first to rush in? I'd like to see some citation for that.
Why would a country feed your "bums" when you don't even feed them yourselves anyways. Aid is about helping those in need, it isn't a quid pro quo arrangement.
Again, what are you basing this on? Canada has a strong and innovative aerospace industry. Japan still makes what some people would argue as superior electronics. European cars are just as widespread in Europe as American cars are here. Innovation isn't an American quality. Who is doing the whining exactly?
You want to know what "*** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** everyone off?"
Grand generalizations that the rest of the world is lazy and stupid. Try that. The Romans ran the entire Western World for 400 years. Before them, the Greeks controlled most of Europe (population wise at least) all of the ME, some of the Indian subcontinent and a good portion of Africa. The Mongols overran almost all of Eurasia. The sun "never set" on the British Empire.
Were all of these dominant nations simply harder working and smarter? No. Circumstances led to their rise, and eventual fall. Some within the purview of their control, some outside.
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When disaster strikes in other countries, we're the first people there. How many countries that rely on our international airlines have returned the same when we were decimated by 9/11? How many countries are helping to feed our bums? How many countries come to our aid?
You're doing a great disservice to your country right now. Try asking these questions to the thousands of Americans who ended up in Newfoundland in small towns staying in the very homes of the people there when their planes were grounded after 9/11. Try asking my sister who gave blood specifically for hospital patients in NY. America is always the first to rush in? I'd like to see some citation for that.
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The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world’s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent). In raw dollars, however, the United States is now the world’s top donor of economic aid, although for more than a decade it was second to Japan, which is far smaller and has been beset by economic woes. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 5.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001—almost a third of what America contributed.
From here.Why would a country feed your "bums" when you don't even feed them yourselves anyways. Aid is about helping those in need, it isn't a quid pro quo arrangement.
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We figure it out, design it, sell it, and spend the profits. The rest of the world just whines.
Again, what are you basing this on? Canada has a strong and innovative aerospace industry. Japan still makes what some people would argue as superior electronics. European cars are just as widespread in Europe as American cars are here. Innovation isn't an American quality. Who is doing the whining exactly?
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Just because we don't beat on drums and chant to the Gods of fire doesn't mean we don't have a culture.
Last time I checked, most cultures weren't defined by beating on drums and chanting to the gods of fire.
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Not only do we feed and care for most of the world...
Sources, please.
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We figure it out, design it, sell it, and spend the profits. The rest of the world just whines.
Do you really believe that Americans are the only ones who can be innovative? If this is true, why are so many of our luxury items of foreign design? Sony, Lexus, Toyota, Chrysler-Daimler, Ikea, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Bang & Olfsun, Rolex, Seiko...I could keep going if you want.
We may figure a lot of things out, but there are a lot of foreign companies out there that have done the same or have taken our designs and made them better.
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But we're smarter and work harder.
We may have citizens that are intelligent work hard, but we have our fair share of uneducated, lazy people, as well. Other countries, in turn, have uneducated and lazy people, but they have also produced some of the most brilliant minds of our time. Your statement is insulting and non-constructive.
GDP per capita : the US outshines all others (oh, except Luxembourg, the econo-giant)
List of GDPs
Let's see, the top countries are : the US, Luxembourg, Bermuda, San Marino, Aruba, Switzerland, and Norway. Only Switzerland on that list has a population over 5 million.
Numbers can show anything you want, of course. I am quite sure there is at least one person in Norway (population 4.5 million) who can't read. To be accurate, they should say 99.something percent, and not imply universal literacy.
The US tends to be brutally honest, I guess.
The fact is that the US dominates the world in militarily, economically and culturally. Alot of people like to bash American simply because it is on top. No other reason. It is similiar to those who think being "anti-" (anything) is always good. Going against the establishment.
No one downplayed the strengths of other countries, or their contributions to history. Of course, the US does not dominate every aspect of every category possible. However, we have a great combination of the top categories.
Why do people flood into this country? Why is the waiting list so long? They WANT to be here. They know the opportunities that exist here.
Of course, the anti-Americans always downplay the contributions made by this country. It's in their nature to be "anti".
List of GDPs
Let's see, the top countries are : the US, Luxembourg, Bermuda, San Marino, Aruba, Switzerland, and Norway. Only Switzerland on that list has a population over 5 million.
Numbers can show anything you want, of course. I am quite sure there is at least one person in Norway (population 4.5 million) who can't read. To be accurate, they should say 99.something percent, and not imply universal literacy.
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Literacy Rate -- the percentage of the adult population who can read and write. Nations often have unique methods to define literacy. These figures are only a rough estimate. Click on the Literacy Rate category to sort the nations of the world from the highest literacy rate to the lowest.
The US tends to be brutally honest, I guess.
The fact is that the US dominates the world in militarily, economically and culturally. Alot of people like to bash American simply because it is on top. No other reason. It is similiar to those who think being "anti-" (anything) is always good. Going against the establishment.
No one downplayed the strengths of other countries, or their contributions to history. Of course, the US does not dominate every aspect of every category possible. However, we have a great combination of the top categories.
Why do people flood into this country? Why is the waiting list so long? They WANT to be here. They know the opportunities that exist here.
Of course, the anti-Americans always downplay the contributions made by this country. It's in their nature to be "anti".
Amlord
Have you ever been to Norway?
Not only do they all read, but the majority of them also read at least one other language.
Here in Denmark, nearly every one, even the older generations can hold a basic conversation in two or three languages
Yes.
We watch US films, listen to US music and eat US food. We also watch Chinese films, listen to Morroccan music and eat Thai food. 
America is a great nation and I've met nice Americans and awful Americans. Essentially, you are just the same as us. The difference's are merely superficial.
When my friend from Atlanta is at my place, we all sit and watch films from all over the world and she reads the Danish sub text because that's what you do if you can't speak Japanese. We eat Piza, and drink soda and laugh at each other and the only real difference is her accent and her tendency to speak rather loudly... which we all laugh about.
My point is, yes we love America, and hopefully America loves us too. Its not being rich that really matters.
Its how you treat your friends.
Have you ever been to Norway?
Not only do they all read, but the majority of them also read at least one other language.Here in Denmark, nearly every one, even the older generations can hold a basic conversation in two or three languages
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Every one loves America?
Yes.
We watch US films, listen to US music and eat US food. We also watch Chinese films, listen to Morroccan music and eat Thai food. America is a great nation and I've met nice Americans and awful Americans. Essentially, you are just the same as us. The difference's are merely superficial.
When my friend from Atlanta is at my place, we all sit and watch films from all over the world and she reads the Danish sub text because that's what you do if you can't speak Japanese. We eat Piza, and drink soda and laugh at each other and the only real difference is her accent and her tendency to speak rather loudly... which we all laugh about.
My point is, yes we love America, and hopefully America loves us too. Its not being rich that really matters.
Its how you treat your friends.
QUOTE(moif @ Apr 2 2003, 02:55 AM)
Amlord
Have you ever been to Norway? Not only do they all read, but the majority of them also read at least one other language.
Here in Denmark, nearly every one, even the older generations can hold a basic conversation in two or three languages
Yes. We watch US films, listen to US music and eat US food. We also watch Chinese films, listen to Morroccan music and eat Thai food.
America is a great nation and I've met nice Americans and awful Americans. Essentially, you are just the same as us. The difference's are merely superficial.
When my friend from Atlanta is at my place, we all sit and watch films from all over the world and she reads the Danish sub text because that's what you do if you can't speak Japanese. We eat Piza, and drink soda and laugh at each other and the only real difference is her accent and her tendency to speak rather loudly... which we all laugh about.
My point is, yes we love America, and hopefully America loves us too. Its not being rich that really matters.
Its how you treat your friends.
Have you ever been to Norway?
Not only do they all read, but the majority of them also read at least one other language.Here in Denmark, nearly every one, even the older generations can hold a basic conversation in two or three languages
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Every one loves America?
Yes.
We watch US films, listen to US music and eat US food. We also watch Chinese films, listen to Morroccan music and eat Thai food. America is a great nation and I've met nice Americans and awful Americans. Essentially, you are just the same as us. The difference's are merely superficial.
When my friend from Atlanta is at my place, we all sit and watch films from all over the world and she reads the Danish sub text because that's what you do if you can't speak Japanese. We eat Piza, and drink soda and laugh at each other and the only real difference is her accent and her tendency to speak rather loudly... which we all laugh about.
My point is, yes we love America, and hopefully America loves us too. Its not being rich that really matters.
Its how you treat your friends.
So defending Europe from the USSR for 50 years means nothing? Helping rebuild a Europe decimated by two World Wars means nothing?
Friendship is a two way street, and quite frankly, the US has gotten very little in return for its largesse.
You are exactly right, its how you treat your friends, and the US has been villainized and spit upon for too long.
I have not been to Norway, but I have been to Denmark, where they have a squad that goes around and collects OD'd drug users and where the Red Light District is quite famous.
I still do not believe that there is not one Nord who can't read...
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So defending Europe from the USSR for 50 years means nothing? Helping rebuild a Europe decimated by two World Wars means nothing?
You know, I don't expect my friends to OWE me something if I do them a favour. If I help a friend with an essay I don't turn around two weeks later and say "drive me to the grocery store." I ask.
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I have not been to Norway, but I have been to Denmark, where they have a squad that goes around and collects OD'd drug users and where the Red Light District is quite famous.
Can you please explain the relevance of this? I can't figure it out.
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So defending Europe from the USSR for 50 years means nothing? Helping rebuild a Europe decimated by two World Wars means nothing?
I didn't help defend Europe from the USSR. Once I was 3 the USSR was gone (what took them so long). Canadians are just Americans only much more wacky. I don't make the decsions, I just live here. I'm don't feel sorry for what my country has done in the world.
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Canadians are just Americans only much more wacky.
I find that offensive... and I'm not sure what how it relates to the discussion at hand.
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You know, I don't expect my friends to OWE me something if I do them a favour. If I help a friend with an essay I don't turn around two weeks later and say "drive me to the grocery store." I ask.
You also shouldn't expect your friend to tell everyone : "You know, Joe helps me alot with school. But he is just too smug. He thinks he's smarter than everyone. He tries to help too much."
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So defending Europe from the USSR for 50 years means nothing? Helping rebuild a Europe decimated by two World Wars means nothing?
Sure it means something, but that doesn't mean that Europe should be eternally indebted to the U.S.. Relationships grow and change. The U.S. has changed too, and the relationship and level of respect has to evolve with each new action.
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Friendship is a two way street, and quite frankly, the US has gotten very little in return for its largesse.
Sure we have. Just because other countries don't rush into war with the U.S., doesn't mean that we don't have a mutually beneficial relationship. Everytime a citizen from another country purchases a product from the U.S., we benefit.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Apr 2 2003, 10:50 AM)
QUOTE(amlord @ Apr 2 2003, 08:54 AM)
I have not been to Norway, but I have been to Denmark, where they have a squad that goes around and collects OD'd drug users and where the Red Light District is quite famous.
Can you please explain the relevance of this? I can't figure it out.
I believe amlord is trying to suggest that Denmark, like much of Europe, is a lot more humane than the US, has much better social services, and far more sensible laws. Here in the US, we leave our drug addicts to die untreated on the street and our red light districts are infamous for their unregulated crack whores spreading AIDS to a populace too ill-educated to practice safe sex. He was citing another few examples of why we're the envy of the world - at least that part of the world which envies rampant ignorance.
At least, I think that's what he meant.
Amlord
Are you suggesting the United States did these things single handed? If so, then I regret to have to inform you that this is not the case. America helped defeat Germany and participated in the cold war. Europe was not some idle side show in your circus. The European theatre of the second world war was fought across our nations, in our cities and in our grand parents lives. It was Britain and Russia, Poland, the Ukraine, Norway and too some extent France who paid the real price to defeat the Nazi's.
Sure we are grateful for the American soldiers who fought and died in that great tragedy, but that does not mean we are in debt to the USA sixty years later in some highly dubious pre emptive war. Over a million Indians also died on our side, are we to thus support India in its war against Pakistan?
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I disagree with you, and I am sure the many Americans, the fruits of who's labour we support in trade would not be so quick to judge us so harshly. At this moment there are thousands of Americans on vacation in France, do you suppose they feel this way also?
Are you sure your not confusing Denmark with Holland?
I presume you mean Norwegians ?
Some people are dyslexic its true, and others have no aptitude for language, but that doesn't mean they can't read. Every one in Norway is given a good state education and I'm sure the statistics take dyslexia into account. You can see their national statistics here.
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So defending Europe from the USSR for 50 years means nothing? Helping rebuild a Europe decimated by two World Wars means nothing?
Are you suggesting the United States did these things single handed? If so, then I regret to have to inform you that this is not the case. America helped defeat Germany and participated in the cold war. Europe was not some idle side show in your circus. The European theatre of the second world war was fought across our nations, in our cities and in our grand parents lives. It was Britain and Russia, Poland, the Ukraine, Norway and too some extent France who paid the real price to defeat the Nazi's.
Sure we are grateful for the American soldiers who fought and died in that great tragedy, but that does not mean we are in debt to the USA sixty years later in some highly dubious pre emptive war. Over a million Indians also died on our side, are we to thus support India in its war against Pakistan?
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Friendship is a two way street, and quite frankly, the US has gotten very little in return for its largesse.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I disagree with you, and I am sure the many Americans, the fruits of who's labour we support in trade would not be so quick to judge us so harshly. At this moment there are thousands of Americans on vacation in France, do you suppose they feel this way also?
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I have not been to Norway, but I have been to Denmark, where they have a squad that goes around and collects OD'd drug users and where the Red Light District is quite famous.
Are you sure your not confusing Denmark with Holland?
QUOTE
I still do not believe that there is not one Nord who can't read
I presume you mean Norwegians ?
Some people are dyslexic its true, and others have no aptitude for language, but that doesn't mean they can't read. Every one in Norway is given a good state education and I'm sure the statistics take dyslexia into account. You can see their national statistics here.
QUOTE
It was Britain and Russia, Poland, the Ukraine, Norway and too some extent France who paid the real price to defeat the Nazi's.
*ahem* I think you're forgetting someone...
UJ
I don't mean any disrespect to Canada, but I was refering to the fact that the war happened IN those nations.
I don't mean any disrespect to Canada, but I was refering to the fact that the war happened IN those nations.
QUOTE
So defending Europe from the USSR for 50 years means nothing? Helping rebuild a Europe decimated by two World Wars means nothing?
Friendship is a two way street, and quite frankly, the US has gotten very little in return for its largesse.
You are exactly right, its how you treat your friends, and the US has been villainized and spit upon for too long.
Friendship is a two way street, and quite frankly, the US has gotten very little in return for its largesse.
You are exactly right, its how you treat your friends, and the US has been villainized and spit upon for too long.
Lending assistance to friends and allied nations doesn't obligate those friends to support questionable actions they view to be unjust.
And, as others have pointed out, the U.S. wasn't some lone wolf patrolling the globe in defense of freedom everywhere. Too often Americans adopt this perception without regard to the actions carried out by those European nations themselves.
QUOTE(moif @ Apr 3 2003, 12:10 AM)
UJ
I don't mean any disrespect to Canada, but I was refering to the fact that the war happened IN those nations.
I don't mean any disrespect to Canada, but I was refering to the fact that the war happened IN those nations.
I know. You missed Belgium, The Netherlands, Czecheslovakia, Italy and a couple others. That's what I was talking about...
Thanks Joe,Yes, there were many other nations involved 'personally' in this manner and some were worse than others.
Having made that point though, I would repeat that I am sensible of the sacrifice made by the thousands of Americans, Canadiens, Australiens, New Zealanders and others who also fought and died in defence of the democracy and freedom we enjoy today. And I fully support my nation in its support of the United States.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 24 2003, 05:20 AM)
We're not perfect and could improve in many ways. But we're smarter and work harder. And that just *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** everyone off.
I think we've just solved the riddle of why so much of the world hates America. Two words...
MONUMENTAL ARROGANCE
How do you expect people in other countries to react to this sort of deeply offensive egotism and over-weening pride?
QUOTE(JonBon @ Apr 3 2003 @ 10:40 AM)
I think we've just solved the riddle of why so much of the world hates America. Two words...
MONUMENTAL ARROGANCE
MONUMENTAL ARROGANCE
The world expected something else from the country responsible for Super Sizing...?
Geeze... like, you'd think eating our french... er, freedom fries... you'd think eating those with the artery hardening gift of super sizing would give these countries a better appreciation of America!
I heard on the radio yesterday that in WWI, there was a movement in America to change the common name of rubella to 'Liberty measles'.
Which, incidentally, ignores the long tradition in British English (which named German measles) of using other nationalities as pejoratives. (e.g. 'Dutch' courage, to 'Welsh' on a bet, etc.)
Perhaps if, rather than renaming French fries, you stopped eating quite so many of them because of their (largely non-existant - the French themselves think they're Belgian) French links, you might be doing your country more good in the long run.
(Yes, I know - sweeping generalisations 'r' us)
Oh, and it seems to me that in an international popularity contest, based on how many foreign nationals want to come and live in your country, the probable winners would be countries like Uganda (lots of Rwandans and Burundians there); Iran/Turkey/Jordan - lot's of Iraqis fleeing Saddam; or Jordan/Lebanon/Egypt - millions of Palestinians ejected or fleeing from Israel.
But using it as a criterion for excellence at all seems a little short sighted. A girl who claims that the large number of suitors she has indicate how beautiful she must be may just be a cheap date, after all.
Which, incidentally, ignores the long tradition in British English (which named German measles) of using other nationalities as pejoratives. (e.g. 'Dutch' courage, to 'Welsh' on a bet, etc.)
Perhaps if, rather than renaming French fries, you stopped eating quite so many of them because of their (largely non-existant - the French themselves think they're Belgian) French links, you might be doing your country more good in the long run.
(Yes, I know - sweeping generalisations 'r' us)
Oh, and it seems to me that in an international popularity contest, based on how many foreign nationals want to come and live in your country, the probable winners would be countries like Uganda (lots of Rwandans and Burundians there); Iran/Turkey/Jordan - lot's of Iraqis fleeing Saddam; or Jordan/Lebanon/Egypt - millions of Palestinians ejected or fleeing from Israel.
But using it as a criterion for excellence at all seems a little short sighted. A girl who claims that the large number of suitors she has indicate how beautiful she must be may just be a cheap date, after all.
QUOTE
Oh, and it seems to me that in an international popularity contest, based on how many foreign nationals want to come and live in your country, the probable winners would be countries like Uganda (lots of Rwandans and Burundians there); Iran/Turkey/Jordan - lot's of Iraqis fleeing Saddam; or Jordan/Lebanon/Egypt - millions of Palestinians ejected or fleeing from Israel.
Good point... there don't seem to be too many (industrialized) European nationals rushing away to live in America. Perhaps our foreign friends on AD can help us out here... how difficult is it for immigrants, and largely illegal immigrants, to successfully make it in your countries? It seems pretty easy here, and I'm thinking that's the deciding factor in their fleeing here over other free nations, rather than simply favoring our country over others.
QUOTE
MONUMENTAL ARROGANCE
How do you expect people in other countries to react to this sort of deeply offensive egotism and over-weening pride?
How do you expect people in other countries to react to this sort of deeply offensive egotism and over-weening pride?
Well every single person from "whales" is a fat, ugly... There are almost 300 million of us. Are we arrogant when we try to defend our country in Iraq? How is it possible to say every American is arrogant? If people from other countries want to call us arrogant we can just rename our foods from their country and then boycott their overpriced bottled water!!
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Apr 4 2003, 01:39 AM)
QUOTE
MONUMENTAL ARROGANCE
How do you expect people in other countries to react to this sort of deeply offensive egotism and over-weening pride?
How do you expect people in other countries to react to this sort of deeply offensive egotism and over-weening pride?
Well every single person from "whales" is a fat, ugly... There are almost 300 million of us. Are we arrogant when we try to defend our country in Iraq? How is it possible to say every American is arrogant? If people from other countries want to call us arrogant we can just rename our foods from their country and then boycott their overpriced bottled water!!
This is what was referred to as monumental arrogance:
QUOTE
We're not perfect and could improve in many ways. But we're smarter and work harder. And that just *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** everyone off.
I don't think it's so unreasonable to identify someone suggesting their nation is smarter and harder working than the entire human race as arrogant.
QUOTE
This is what was referred to as monumental arrogance:
I was being sarcastic but isn't saying Americans are all arrogant just as stupid as saying the french don't agree with us now we must rename food?
I do agree the sterotypical American Conservative rootin' tootin overweight white texan man is arrogant.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Apr 4 2003, 03:20 AM)
This is what was referred to as monumental arrogance:
I don't think it's so unreasonable to identify someone suggesting their nation is smarter and harder working than the entire human race as arrogant.
QUOTE
We're not perfect and could improve in many ways. But we're smarter and work harder. And that just *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** everyone off.
I don't think it's so unreasonable to identify someone suggesting their nation is smarter and harder working than the entire human race as arrogant.
Well of course we're smarter and work harder! We're Americans!
"Now umm... could somebody tell me what arro... arrogaaa... arrogant means? Gosh, that's a mighty big word! Word like that must be a super sized word, so you know it's American!"
Thankfully somebody has already touched on literacy and education in this country...
I know consecutive postings are discouraged, but I came across this great letter in another forum I frequent and I definitely feel the need to share it here. This is in response to some ridiculous statements Paul Cellucci made in regards to the Canadian stance on the war.
I think that this is the most eloquent way to explain the current political situation along the 49th parallel, and why our 'friendship' exists in it's current configuration.
QUOTE
To: Ambassador Paul Cellucci, Embassy of the United States of America, 490 Sussex Dr., Ottawa, Ont.
DEAR MR. AMBASSADOR:
Your recent remarks about Canada's policy with respect to Iraq were inaccurate, inappropriate and offensive. Prime Minister Chretien is maintaining a delicate balance between U.S. pressure and Canadian opinion - a familiar position for Canadian prime ministers - and he will not tell you to go pound sand. But someone should.
Fundamentally, you argue that the United States would instantly come to the aid of Canada in an emergency, and Canada should therefore participate in your ill-advised attack on Iraq.
"There is no security threat to Canada that the United States would not be ready, willing and able to help with," you are quoted as saying. "There would be no debate. There would be no hesitation. We would be there for Canada, part of our family."
Codswallop. And that's being diplomatic.
The primary threat to Canadian security has always been the United States. A monument in Quebec honours my earliest Canadian ancestor for repelling an invasion from your home state of Massachusetts in 1690. The very first instance of military co-operation among the 13 colonies occurred in 1745 under the leadership of James Shirley, your predecessor as governor of Massachusetts, whose army invaded Nova Scotia and captured the Fortress of Louisbourg.
Thirty years later, during the American Revolution, your privateers sacked our ports. We were at war once more in 1812-15. The birth of Canada in 1867 was prompted by fears of a U.S. invasion. That's why our railroad runs along the Gulf of St. Lawrence, far from the U.S. border.
Do you remember manifest destiny, the 1840s U.S. doctrine which held that your country had a God-given mission to rule all of North America? Do you remember "Fifty-four-forty or fight," the slogan that rallied Americans to threaten an invasion in 1902 over the Alaska boundary? Yours is the only country that has ever invaded ours, and it would do so again in a wink if it thought its interests here were seriously threatened.
And how does your sentimental mantra of perpetual willingness to spring to our assistance apply to the First World War, which we entered in 1914, while you stayed out for three years? We went to war against Hitler in 1939, while you were moved to join your sister democracies only after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor two years later. A million Canadians fought in the Second World War, and 45,000 died. We need no lectures from Americans about the defence of liberty and democracy.
Nevertheless, despite the strains of our history, we are probably as close as any two nations in the world. Many Canadians - I am one - have family members who are American citizens. Our two nations fought together not only in two World Wars, but also to repel the invasions of South Korea in 1949 and Kuwait in 1991.
And when great catastrophe strikes without warning, our people have indeed been there for each other.
As governor of Massachusetts, you must have been present at the lighting of the Christmas tree in Boston each year - an annual gift from Nova Scotia to commemorate the immediate and massive assistance of Massachusetts after the Halifax Explosion in 1917.
Our chance to reciprocate came on Sept. 11, 2001, when Canadian communities took in, on an instant's notice, 40,000 passengers from U.S. planes forced down by the terrorist attacks.
Halifax alone hosted 7,200. We housed them in our homes and schools and churches, fed them and comforted them and treated them as family. We probably gave more immediate and practical assistance to Americans than any other country. Yet when your president later thanked nations for their help, he did not mention Canada.
The Iraq conflict, however, is not an unforeseen disaster, but a deliberate choice. Your president has squandered a worldwide outpouring of sympathy and solidarity in less than two years - an astounding diplomatic debacle. Your own remarks, with their dark hints of economic revenge, are entirely consistent with the Bush administration's policy of diplomacy by bullying, bribing and threatening.
A huge body of opinion, even in the U.S. and Britain, judges this war to be illegal, reckless and irrelevant to the fight against terrorism. Your government appears to have forgotten Osama bin Laden, and not to have noticed that the Sept. 11 terrorists were mostly Saudi, not Iraqi. They lived not in Baghdad but in Hamburg and San Diego. The Iraq campaign is a sideshow, a grudge match, a distraction. It will breed more martyrs, and more terrorists.
Back in Massachusetts, in 1846, a young man was arrested and jailed for refusing to pay taxes, to avoid supporting his government's deplorable policies.
He explained this in an essay, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience, which has ever since inspired people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. His name was Henry David Thoreau, and no doubt the governor of Massachusetts thought he was a pretty poor American. He was not; like King, he was a voice for what is finest in American life and values. And the issue on which he took his stand may sound a bit familiar. He was opposed to an imperial war - the unprovoked U.S. invasion which stripped Mexico of 40 per cent of its territory.
Good citizens - and good friends - oppose bad policies. By telling you the truth, they strive to save you from folly. They may be mistaken, but they are not your enemies.
That is the message you should take back to the White House, whether or not there is anyone there who will understand it.
Sincerely,
Silver Donald Cameron
DEAR MR. AMBASSADOR:
Your recent remarks about Canada's policy with respect to Iraq were inaccurate, inappropriate and offensive. Prime Minister Chretien is maintaining a delicate balance between U.S. pressure and Canadian opinion - a familiar position for Canadian prime ministers - and he will not tell you to go pound sand. But someone should.
Fundamentally, you argue that the United States would instantly come to the aid of Canada in an emergency, and Canada should therefore participate in your ill-advised attack on Iraq.
"There is no security threat to Canada that the United States would not be ready, willing and able to help with," you are quoted as saying. "There would be no debate. There would be no hesitation. We would be there for Canada, part of our family."
Codswallop. And that's being diplomatic.
The primary threat to Canadian security has always been the United States. A monument in Quebec honours my earliest Canadian ancestor for repelling an invasion from your home state of Massachusetts in 1690. The very first instance of military co-operation among the 13 colonies occurred in 1745 under the leadership of James Shirley, your predecessor as governor of Massachusetts, whose army invaded Nova Scotia and captured the Fortress of Louisbourg.
Thirty years later, during the American Revolution, your privateers sacked our ports. We were at war once more in 1812-15. The birth of Canada in 1867 was prompted by fears of a U.S. invasion. That's why our railroad runs along the Gulf of St. Lawrence, far from the U.S. border.
Do you remember manifest destiny, the 1840s U.S. doctrine which held that your country had a God-given mission to rule all of North America? Do you remember "Fifty-four-forty or fight," the slogan that rallied Americans to threaten an invasion in 1902 over the Alaska boundary? Yours is the only country that has ever invaded ours, and it would do so again in a wink if it thought its interests here were seriously threatened.
And how does your sentimental mantra of perpetual willingness to spring to our assistance apply to the First World War, which we entered in 1914, while you stayed out for three years? We went to war against Hitler in 1939, while you were moved to join your sister democracies only after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor two years later. A million Canadians fought in the Second World War, and 45,000 died. We need no lectures from Americans about the defence of liberty and democracy.
Nevertheless, despite the strains of our history, we are probably as close as any two nations in the world. Many Canadians - I am one - have family members who are American citizens. Our two nations fought together not only in two World Wars, but also to repel the invasions of South Korea in 1949 and Kuwait in 1991.
And when great catastrophe strikes without warning, our people have indeed been there for each other.
As governor of Massachusetts, you must have been present at the lighting of the Christmas tree in Boston each year - an annual gift from Nova Scotia to commemorate the immediate and massive assistance of Massachusetts after the Halifax Explosion in 1917.
Our chance to reciprocate came on Sept. 11, 2001, when Canadian communities took in, on an instant's notice, 40,000 passengers from U.S. planes forced down by the terrorist attacks.
Halifax alone hosted 7,200. We housed them in our homes and schools and churches, fed them and comforted them and treated them as family. We probably gave more immediate and practical assistance to Americans than any other country. Yet when your president later thanked nations for their help, he did not mention Canada.
The Iraq conflict, however, is not an unforeseen disaster, but a deliberate choice. Your president has squandered a worldwide outpouring of sympathy and solidarity in less than two years - an astounding diplomatic debacle. Your own remarks, with their dark hints of economic revenge, are entirely consistent with the Bush administration's policy of diplomacy by bullying, bribing and threatening.
A huge body of opinion, even in the U.S. and Britain, judges this war to be illegal, reckless and irrelevant to the fight against terrorism. Your government appears to have forgotten Osama bin Laden, and not to have noticed that the Sept. 11 terrorists were mostly Saudi, not Iraqi. They lived not in Baghdad but in Hamburg and San Diego. The Iraq campaign is a sideshow, a grudge match, a distraction. It will breed more martyrs, and more terrorists.
Back in Massachusetts, in 1846, a young man was arrested and jailed for refusing to pay taxes, to avoid supporting his government's deplorable policies.
He explained this in an essay, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience, which has ever since inspired people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. His name was Henry David Thoreau, and no doubt the governor of Massachusetts thought he was a pretty poor American. He was not; like King, he was a voice for what is finest in American life and values. And the issue on which he took his stand may sound a bit familiar. He was opposed to an imperial war - the unprovoked U.S. invasion which stripped Mexico of 40 per cent of its territory.
Good citizens - and good friends - oppose bad policies. By telling you the truth, they strive to save you from folly. They may be mistaken, but they are not your enemies.
That is the message you should take back to the White House, whether or not there is anyone there who will understand it.
Sincerely,
Silver Donald Cameron
I think that this is the most eloquent way to explain the current political situation along the 49th parallel, and why our 'friendship' exists in it's current configuration.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Apr 4 2003, 05:44 AM)
I was being sarcastic but isn't saying Americans are all arrogant just as stupid as saying the french don't agree with us now we must rename food?
No-one said all Americans were arrogant. Daytona Rocker made a post which, in my opinion, displayed huge cultural arrogance. I then used it as an example of the type of attitudes that contribute to anti-American feeling around the globe. Are you denying the arrogance of the original post, or that such arrogance inevitably leads to resentment amongst people that are not American?
Joe:
The US has never invaded Canada, since the nation of "Canada" did not exist until 1867. We were at war with Britain, to whom Canada swore allegiance. The War of 1812, again, war with Britain. "Fifty-four forty" was a campaign speech, meant to fire people up. When the guy who gave that speech became President (James Polk), the boundary became the 49th parallel, not 54-40.
Example from 200 years ago mean nothing, especially when they pre-date your country's existance.
That being said, Canada has been a great friend of the US. Canada's terriorial interests in North America are important to US security, and any threat to Canada would be perceived as a threat to the US.
Canada had a great outpouring of support on 9/11. The Halifax example shows a much more recent example of the connection between our two countries. I think the bond is closer than can be broken through a disagreement between our heads of state.
The US has never invaded Canada, since the nation of "Canada" did not exist until 1867. We were at war with Britain, to whom Canada swore allegiance. The War of 1812, again, war with Britain. "Fifty-four forty" was a campaign speech, meant to fire people up. When the guy who gave that speech became President (James Polk), the boundary became the 49th parallel, not 54-40.
Example from 200 years ago mean nothing, especially when they pre-date your country's existance.
That being said, Canada has been a great friend of the US. Canada's terriorial interests in North America are important to US security, and any threat to Canada would be perceived as a threat to the US.
Canada had a great outpouring of support on 9/11. The Halifax example shows a much more recent example of the connection between our two countries. I think the bond is closer than can be broken through a disagreement between our heads of state.
I happen to agree with you. The letter I provided though is still accurate that the United States has represented the chief security threat of these territories thoughout the last two hundred years.
Canada gets huge economic benefits from being next to the richest country in the world and is money not the most important thing in the world ? If you had to live anywhere other than your home country wouldn't you live the U.S.?
? If you had to live anywhere other than your home country wouldn't you live the U.S.?
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Apr 15 2003, 02:06 PM)
Canada gets huge economic benefits from being next to the richest country in the world and is money not the most important thing in the world ? If you had to live anywhere other than your home country wouldn't you live the U.S.?
? If you had to live anywhere other than your home country wouldn't you live the U.S.? Hell no! I like my political freedom. Actually, if I could live anywhere else in the world it would probably be Germany... I don't know why, but I've always found the country and the language interesting.
And as for Canada, but the two economies are INTEGRATED; both countries receive economic benefits from each other. Money may be important to you, but there are other things that I value more; even if I need them less.
QUOTE
the two economies are INTEGRATED
I agree. Most Americans don't have anything against Canada in fact they love the bear who sells beer.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Apr 15 2003, 12:11 PM)
as for Canada, but the two economies are INTEGRATED; both countries receive economic benefits from each other. Money may be important to you, but there are other things that I value more; even if I need them less.
They are intergrated? I never knew that
of course, i don't know a bloody thing about economics so sue me
A few years ago a Chrysler (I think) plant went on strike in a town called Oshawa not far from here. It basically froze truck production for the entire truck line across North America.
The U.S. gets a lot of its power for the Eastern Seaboard from Quebec, Oil from Alberta, timber from all over the country, wheat and produce, and all sorts of commercial and industrial products. At the same time Canada imports a tremendous amount from the U.S. Service industries overlap the border in every economic sector.
Why do you think that the recent (and horribly illegal and immoral given the auspices of free trade) lumber tarriffs imposed have raised the cost of building AMERICAN homes?
Read my signature.
MOST Americans have nothing against America; except industry and the government.
The U.S. gets a lot of its power for the Eastern Seaboard from Quebec, Oil from Alberta, timber from all over the country, wheat and produce, and all sorts of commercial and industrial products. At the same time Canada imports a tremendous amount from the U.S. Service industries overlap the border in every economic sector.
Why do you think that the recent (and horribly illegal and immoral given the auspices of free trade) lumber tarriffs imposed have raised the cost of building AMERICAN homes?
Read my signature.
MOST Americans have nothing against America; except industry and the government.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Mar 24 2003, 04:49 PM)
GDP per capita : the US outshines all others (oh, except Luxembourg, the econo-giant)
[QUOTE] May I just remind you that thanks to the strong euro many European countries now have a GDP greater than that of the US. Like the Netherlands for example. Also, people were complaining about Dutch drug policies (The Netherlands is on of the few countries that allows soft drugs), however, the Netherlands is one of the few countries in which the number of deaths due to drugs are decreasing when in almost any other country its rising.
Welcome siddeh -
Please try and address the question posed for debate here, so as not to appear off-topic:
Please try and address the question posed for debate here, so as not to appear off-topic:
QUOTE(RancidUncle @ the beginning of this thread, debate question)
Then why is our country's culture dominant? Why do so many people want to come to our country?
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