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Mona Charen has a new column about how Obama feels about America. This is doubly interesting because she earned an undergraduate degree from Barnard College, Columbia University (with honors), where Obama graduated, and a J.D. from The George Washington University Law School, meaning she also has the law degree, again like Obama. She read Dreams, like I did, and has some concerns as I result, also like I did. Have a look:

QUOTE
How Does Obama Feel About America?Fri Mar 7, 3:00 AM ET

Barack Obama's words are often attractive but oddly concealing. His speeches are all balm and mood. It's all very well to seek, as Obama claims, to transcend old categories, to reject the "old politics." But then what? This graceful rhetorician leaves you wondering: Who is he really? What does he want for himself and for his country?

In search of answers that go deeper than the Congressional Record, I read his first book, "Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance." Once you get past the happy surprise of finding a politician who can actually write, the book contains some disquieting elements.

*snip*

Obama never reveals her political views nor her feelings about America. But we get one glimpse in this passage:

"Looking back, I'm not sure Lolo [his Indonesian step-dad] ever fully understood what my mother was going through ... why the things he was working so hard to provide for her seemed only to increase the distance between them ... He landed a job in the government relations department of an American oil company. ... Sometimes I would overhear him and my mother arguing in their bedroom, usually about her refusal to attend his company dinner parties, where American businessmen from Texas and Louisiana would slap Lolo's back and boast about the palms they had greased to obtain the new offshore drilling rights, while their wives complained to my mother about the quality of Indonesian help. He would ask her how it would look for him to go alone, and remind her that these were her own people, and my mother's voice would rise to almost a shout.

'They are not my people.'"

*snip*

Whom does he reject — or what? ... The very existence of the factories, the timber interests, the plastics manufacturer, will have rendered their [Indonesian] culture obsolete; the values of hard work and individual initiative turn out to have depended on a system of belief that's been scrambled by migration and urbanization and imported TV reruns."

Obama's self-portrait in this book is that of a searching, nonjudgmental young man attempting to find his rightful place after a confusing start in life. But he is attracted by the harshly ideological Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whose church he joins. Wright peddles racial grievance religion. Following 9/11, he said, "[W]hite America got a wake-up call ... White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared' as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20080307/cm_uc_...NfBDp4fuv0__8QF

Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

2) What should a presidential candidate feel about the country he may be called to govern?


(edited to conform with forum rules for copyrighted materials)
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turnea
I was wondering if I should even respond to the latest anti-Obama strawman, one of many in a suspiciously short time interval.

...but what the hay the spaghetti's still goin'. rolleyes.gif

What do you think Obama feels about America?
Precisely what he says and I have no reason to believe differently.

He believes that America is a great nation of great people which obviously still has room for improvement.

What should a presidential candidate feel about the country he may be called to govern?
He should certainly not be so resoundingly stupid as to think it is above reproach.
Dingo
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America. Nevertheless that's the question. Probably like most folks he feels ambivalent. I'll just deal with what seems fairly self-evident. I think he sees a country that offers enormous opportunities but can be cruel and indifferent to people on the margins. Along with fulfilling some personal ambition to rise in politics I think a major portion of his adult life has been devoted to working with poor communities to lift themselves up and I think that will be reflected in his politics. His varied background seems to have given him special gifts in reaching out to a broad range of people of all colors, religions, ethnicities and incomes. I certainly don't see a radical, more an easy-as-she-goes reformist.

And yes finding his identity as a black person in American society will no doubt be a continuing concern. I mainly say that because it applies to just about every black person I know. Charen takes certain suggestions of estrangement either from Obama or those close to him and asks us to watch this fellow very carefully. Who knows what baggage he may be carrying. Since I'm not the greatest psychologist in the world I think I'll stick to his public world. I didn't vote for Bill Clinton because of his extracuricular needs or against Bush because he had been an alcoholic. His public actions will do quite fine.

2) What should a presidential candidate feel about the country he may be called to govern?

He should respect the Constitution and work hard to do the best for his countries citizens. I'll leave his feelings to himself. I'm sure they are complicated.
quick
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America.


As an aside, and the reason we do not ask Bush or Clinton this question: Obama has a Kenyan father; grew up through age 10 in Indonesia with an Indonesian, Muslim step-father; and his first book was a paean to his father's African heritage and carefully detailed the lives of his relatives in Kenya. Generally, our presidential candidates do not have such exotic connections.

Carry on....
TinFoilLiberal
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 11 2008, 04:19 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America.


As an aside, and the reason we do not ask Bush or Clinton this question: Obama has a Kenyan father; grew up through age 10 in Indonesia with an Indonesian, Muslim step-father; and his first book was a paean to his father's African heritage and carefully detailed the lives of his relatives in Kenya. Generally, our presidential candidates do not have such exotic connections.

Carry on....

I agree pretty much with what's been said. I think Obama feels (as I do) that America is a great country and yes we can be better than we have been. I think he believes that we have to learn to not stand above the world; but stand with it. I think a presidential candidate should see America not just for how great it is; but also how great it can be. At the same time he or she should also recognize our flaws and not be afraid of addressing these flaws or mistakes so that we may rectify them. What I disagree with is the why Obama is asked how he feels about America. This question is posed to him because he is an African American. Clinton (both), Bush, nor McCain get this question becuase they are white and America (to put it simply) has been good to them and their culture. Obama on the other hand comes form a culture where America hasn't been so good to them and in many respects still isn't. It may be a subconscious attitude; but before America puts an African American in office they want to know what kind of African American they are getting. America wants to make sure on day one their new president isn't going to pop up on the news and say "Hello my fellow Americans. Lets talk about Reparations!"
quick
QUOTE(TinFoilLiberal @ Mar 11 2008, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 11 2008, 04:19 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America.


As an aside, and the reason we do not ask Bush or Clinton this question: Obama has a Kenyan father; grew up through age 10 in Indonesia with an Indonesian, Muslim step-father; and his first book was a paean to his father's African heritage and carefully detailed the lives of his relatives in Kenya. Generally, our presidential candidates do not have such exotic connections.

Carry on....

but before America puts an African American in office they want to know what kind of African American they are getting. America wants to make sure on day one their new president isn't going to pop up on the news and say "Hello my fellow Americans. Lets talk about Reparations!"


You would be correct, sir. I mean, unless the Federal govt wants to compensate the families of former slave holders for the lost value of the freed slaves, I would suggest the blood of over 600,000 dead in the Civil War pretty much paid all debts....
Dingo
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 11 2008, 01:19 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America.


As an aside, and the reason we do not ask Bush or Clinton this question: Obama has a Kenyan father; grew up through age 10 in Indonesia with an Indonesian, Muslim step-father; and his first book was a paean to his father's African heritage and carefully detailed the lives of his relatives in Kenya. Generally, our presidential candidates do not have such exotic connections.

Carry on....

If I were to personally ask Obama how he felt about America my guess is he would assume it was a question one would naturally address to a foreigner, who probably had some animosity toward the country(Race?) and needed to explain himself. He would know he was starting behind the 8 ball.

I might however ask how his unique experience effects his view of America. Whatever is unique about the other candidates, for instance McCain growing up a somewhat rootless military brat and then being a POW, might occasion me to ask the same question.

Nevertheless this a forum, not a finely tuned place of protocol which is why I dropped it and riffed off this protocol challenged question. wink.gif
turnea
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 11 2008, 03:19 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America.


As an aside, and the reason we do not ask Bush or Clinton this question: Obama has a Kenyan father; grew up through age 10 in Indonesia with an Indonesian, Muslim step-father; and his first book was a paean to his father's African heritage and carefully detailed the lives of his relatives in Kenya. Generally, our presidential candidates do not have such exotic connections.

Carry on....

Ah, we who?

What the nationality or religion of the man's father have to do with anything I cannot fathom.


America has always been a nation of immigrants and it's no shock that a child with a foreign parent might rise to the presidency. It's a no-brainer given our history.

No, "we" as this question mostly because of ideological bias and xenophobia...

Do carry on.

QUOTE(quick)
You would be correct, sir. I mean, unless the Federal govt wants to compensate the families of former slave holders for the lost value of the freed slaves, I would suggest the blood of over 600,000 dead in the Civil War pretty much paid all debts...

That's just illogical. No one called the dead of WWII reparations for the Holocaust.

There are many reasons to opposes slavery reparations, but that's a hollow one.
TinFoilLiberal
You would be correct, sir. I mean, unless the Federal govt wants to compensate the families of former slave holders for the lost value of the freed slaves, I would suggest the blood of over 600,000 dead in the Civil War pretty much paid all debts....


That idea is flawed on so many levels. The Civil War was not about slavery. The war was about states rights versus federal rights. If not for the possible intervention of England on the side of the Confederacy slavery would not have entered the picture. Lincoln didn't free the slaves out of moral righteousness; but out of necessity. "I am not an Abolitionist; I wouldn't free the slaves if I could save the union in any other way. I am obliged to do it." The blood of over 600,000 soldiers wasn't spilled for the benefit of slavery. And even if it could somehow wipe away that debt it wouldn't even be a down payment on the debt many believe is owed for the systematic crimes after slavery (i.e. lynching, Jim Crow Laws, juries rigged to free guilty people or rigged to convict innocent people).
The point I was trying to make was not that people fear a president that would try and force reparations. It was supposed to be a bit humorous. The point I was trying to make was that the question is a (God forgive me for the cliche) litmus test.
quick
QUOTE(turnea @ Mar 11 2008, 05:39 PM) *
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 11 2008, 03:19 PM) *
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America.


As an aside, and the reason we do not ask Bush or Clinton this question: Obama has a Kenyan father; grew up through age 10 in Indonesia with an Indonesian, Muslim step-father; and his first book was a paean to his father's African heritage and carefully detailed the lives of his relatives in Kenya. Generally, our presidential candidates do not have such exotic connections.

Carry on....

Ah, we who?

What the nationality or religion of the man's father have to do with anything I cannot fathom.


America has always been a nation of immigrants and it's no shock that a child with a foreign parent might rise to the presidency. It's a no-brainer given our history.

No, "we" as this question mostly because of ideological bias and xenophobia...

Do carry on.

QUOTE(quick)
You would be correct, sir. I mean, unless the Federal govt wants to compensate the families of former slave holders for the lost value of the freed slaves, I would suggest the blood of over 600,000 dead in the Civil War pretty much paid all debts...

That's just illogical. No one called the dead of WWII reparations for the Holocaust.

There are many reasons to opposes slavery reparations, but that's a hollow one.


1) Causes of the Civil War--Here is what one of the famous CSA generals said about the causes of the war (you will recall, the South was the bellwether of the "states rights" argument which argued slavery was not really the cause of the war):

"Reminiscences Of The Civil War", (Chapter I)
By John B. Gordon, Maj. Gen. CSA

There is no book in existence, I believe, in which the ordinary reader can find an analysis of the issues between the two sections, which fairly represents both the North and the South. Although it would require volumes to contain the great arguments, I shall attempt here to give a brief summary of the causes of our sectional controversy, and it will be my purpose to state the cases of the two sections so impartially that just-minded people on both sides will admit the statement to be judicially fair.
The causes of the war will be found at the foundation of our political fabric, in our complex organism, in the fundamental law, in the Constitution itself, in the conflicting constructions which it invited, and in the institution of slavery which it recognized and was intended to protect. If asked what was the real issue involved in our unparalleled conflict, the average American citizen will reply, "The negro"; and it is fair to say that had there been no slavery there would have been no war."

While I can argue many "causes" of the war, no one with an engaged brain would argue that slavery was not one of the main causes of the war.

2) In 1860, the value of slaves held exceeded the value of all real estate in the South. There were liberated without compensation to their owners. If the fifth generation descendents of black slaves think they are entitled to some compensation, then so are the fifth gen desc. of the slave owners, unless you want to argue that right of conquest permits the liberation of slaves without such compensation, which, if you do, means, well, the blacks were conquered and brought here, too. Get it?

And, of course, trying to determine who is entitled to what is a ludicrous experiment in futility and their are dozens of other arguments--limitations, lack of jurisdiction, inability to trace ancestries, etc., but you get the point.

If you support Obama's politics of unification, then the last thing you should support should be the radically disunifying concept of reparations.

3) If, then, one of the reasons the North fought was to liberate the slaves--and no one can deny this was one of the reasons for the war-- then all the death required to do so bought the slaves' freedom. This is an unavoidable conclusion. The price was paid 150 years ago with primarily white soldiers' blood.
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turnea
QUOTE(quick)
If, then, one of the reasons the North fought was to liberate the slaves--and no one can deny this was one of the reasons for the war-- then all the death required to do so bought the slaves' freedom. This is an unavoidable conclusion. The price was paid 150 years ago with primarily white soldiers' blood.

I could deny it credibly but it doesn't matter.

Your argument is yet another non sequiter. Civil war deaths are no more reparation than WWII dead.

They made those payments to Holocaust survivors because nations fight their wars for various reasons and victims deserves recompense sent directly to them with an apology from a guilty party, in this case an enabling government.

War dead is neither here nor there as the soldiers were not the guilty party nor property.

You can't pay in lives, they aren't currency.
Jaime
Let's go back to the debate questions. The civil war/reparations debate should be reserved for another topic.

TOPICS:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

2) What should a presidential candidate feel about the country he may be called to govern?

entspeak
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 11 2008, 01:03 PM) *
Mona Charen has a new column about how Obama feels about America. This is doubly interesting because she earned an undergraduate degree from Barnard College, Columbia University (with honors), where Obama graduated, and a J.D. from The George Washington University Law School, meaning she also has the law degree, again like Obama. She read Dreams, like I did, and has some concerns as I result, also like I did.


You forgot to mention that this is triply uninteresting because she's a republican conservative who has been called the brunette Ann Coulter. So, it just shows to go ya that people who go to the same school and get the same degree can have completely different politics. Apart from dispelling the implication that these two might be in any way similar people, I've no interest in the debate questions. So, just nodding in... and out. thumbsup.gif
barnaby2341
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 11 2008, 02:30 PM) *
Questions for Debate:

1) What do you think Obama feels about America?

It's an odd question in a way. We don't ask Bush or Clinton what they feel about America. Nevertheless that's the question. Probably like most folks he feels ambivalent. I'll just deal with what seems fairly self-evident. I think he sees a country that offers enormous opportunities but can be cruel and indifferent to people on the margins. Along with fulfilling some personal ambition to rise in politics I think a major portion of his adult life has been devoted to working with poor communities to lift themselves up and I think that will be reflected in his politics. His varied background seems to have given him special gifts in reaching out to a broad range of people of all colors, religions, ethnicities and incomes. I certainly don't see a radical, more an easy-as-she-goes reformist.

The reason Obama gets asked this question is because there is not much known about him. He's had little national exposure. He's brand new to the scene. He has no negatives, so that's why people ask questions like this, because they don't know anything about him.

I would hope that our President feels that our country is a big sham and stinks to the high heavens. We need to overhaul the entire system and educate our woefully ignorant populace with a quickness. But if he says that, he doesn't get elected. So I guess his speeches that are littered with undefined pronouns and vacuous rhetoric will be sufficient for now.
turnea
QUOTE(barnaby2341 @ Mar 12 2008, 12:51 AM) *
The reason Obama gets asked this question is because there is not much known about him. He's had little national exposure. He's brand new to the scene. He has no negatives, so that's why people ask questions like this, because they don't know anything about him.

Why does this rain seem only to fall on my leg? laugh.gif

People ask questions because he's new, but not questions like this.

They didn't ask this about Huckabee or Ron Paul or Tom Tancredo or anyone else.

It's because he's black, lived outside the US, and has a foreign father.

None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. rolleyes.gif

Edited to Add:
..and don't think even these reasons are any more than excuses to dismiss him.
nighttimer
QUOTE(barnaby2341 @ Mar 12 2008, 01:51 AM) *
The reason Obama gets asked this question is because there is not much known about him. He's had little national exposure. He's brand new to the scene. He has no negatives, so that's why people ask questions like this, because they don't know anything about him.


No, the reason is because you and quick would like to hold a Black man to a standard you wouldn't dream of holding a White man to.

Anyone who doesn't know anything about Barack Obama by now is deliberately uninterested in finding out anything about him or they're functionally illiterate.

QUOTE(barnaby2341)
I would hope that our President feels that our country is a big sham and stinks to the high heavens. We need to overhaul the entire system and educate our woefully ignorant populace with a quickness. But if he says that, he doesn't get elected. So I guess his speeches that are littered with undefined pronouns and vacuous rhetoric will be sufficient for now.


QUOTE(barnaby2341)
Can't say I ever pity a dead cop.
link

QUOTE(barnaby2341)
Not to mention that they are all scumbag pigs. That's a scientific fact by the way.
link

Are you annoyed Obama hasn't taken a position on celebrating the killing of police officers or their alleged genetic relationship to barnyard swine?
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