One of the angles of the Barack Obama candidacy that has been on talk radio for awhile now has suddenly hit the 24 hour cable news networks.

Reverend Jeremiah Wright is the pastor of the church Barack Obama has attended for twenty years. He married Barack to his wife and he baptised their children. I've heard it said that Barack began his association with Wright so many years ago to gain street cred in the black community since he was both an outsider and had a white mother and was raised in a white family. Obama's second book's title, The Audacity of Hope, was taken from a sermon by Reverend Wright.

Barack Obama's church, Trinity United Church of Christ, tapes and sells the sermons of Reverend Wright. His sermon from last Christmas has drawn particular attention.

The Slate says:


He compares Barack Obama to Christ and says that Christ was a black man who was killed by rich white men (the Romans).

Yesterday the AP and ABC News picked up this story and ran with it.
Watch the Video

Now, Wright was originally scheduled to be at Obama's announcement of his candidacy for President. He was to give the invocation. At the last minute, Obama asked him not to come. Wright himself has said, in a letter to the New York Times, that he did not make Barack Obama who he is. He did, however, compare him to Moses.



I think there is some debate about how close Barack Obama is to his pastor and whether or not he agrees with some of his more outrageous statements. Obama has said many times that he disagrees with Wright on some things, but as far as I know he has not said which things.

I personally think that this issue could sink Obama's candidacy in the general election. 527s are sure to seize upon this and run ads on it regardless of what McCain wants.

Questions for debate:

Should Barack Obama get in front of this issue and publicly distance himself from Reverend Wright?

Does Obama agree with Reverend Wright on some of these issues?

Is Obama, as the Skeptical Brotha claims, a "craven political operator" for not sticking by his pastor?

Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?

Questions for debate:

Should Barack Obama get in front of this issue and publicly distance himself from Reverend Wright?

Yes. He should leave the church.

Does Obama agree with Reverend Wright on some of these issues?
Well since his book is based on a sermon given by Wright we can assume he does.

Is Obama, as the Skeptical Brotha claims, a "craven political operator" for not sticking by his pastor?

No. IMO he does not agree with most of the outrageous statements made by this man and he should not sacrifice his political career to “stick by” this man.

Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?

Only if Obama does not get out in front of it. McCain is not the type to go after him for the statements of this nutcase and has said as much. Hillary will though imo even if she has to do it, as she has been, through people like Ferraro who then fall on their swords and quit.

As Chuck D. used to say, "Here we go again."

Another day. Another Barack Obama hit thread. How do you guys distribute the workload? You come in for the A.M. shift and quick takes over for the evening?

Okay, I'll play along.

Should Barack Obama get in front of this issue and publicly distance himself from Reverend Wright?

He already has.

Does Obama agree with Reverend Wright on some of these issues?

I'm sure he probably does. I'm also sure he probably disagrees with him on other issues.

Is Obama, as the Skeptical Brotha claims, a "craven political operator" for not sticking by his pastor?

Who cares what "the Skeptical Brotha" claims? He's a blogger with an opinion. Big deal.

Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?

Nope and maybe. It's not worth worrying about.


Now that we've got that out of the way, let's cut right through the crap. Barack Obama is no more responsible for what Reverend Jeremiah Wright says than you are when your son drops a "F" bomb at the dinner table on Thanksgiving or when your wife is driving the car and somebody is tailgating her and she says something that rhymes with "pit" and the infant strapped in the back seat starts chanting it over and over for the next 20 minutes.

Obama has said of Wright that he is like the “crazy old uncle who sometimes says things you wish he wouldn’t.”

Also, what you failed to mention is Wright is the former pastor of Obama's church. He doesn't preach there anymore.

Most people I like to think are smart enough to discern the difference between the remarks made by a minister and those of the politician they may be supporting.

Barack Obama had better hope so.

But he's not the only one.

John McCain had better hope for the same thing too.

He's embracing the hell-and-damnation philosophy of the Reverend John Hagee and his nutty pronouncements. The difference is McCain has embraced this rabid anti-Catholic bigot as he continues his journey to suck up to as many right-wingers as humanly possible.

Hagee has called the Catholic Church a "whore" and wants the U.S. and Israel to bomb Iran to start Armageddon.

McCain is a Republican so that makes it okay. It's just politics. Meanwhile, Obama will have to suspend his campaign so he can go over line-by-line and word-by-word everything Pastor Wright has ever said. It's going to be time-consuming and will take up most of the time he should be spending on the campaign trail, but nothing less than that will satisfy Amlord.

Next we can start demanding every Catholic politician repudiate and denounce The Pope and the Catholic Church for not doing enough to protect children from pedophile priests and every Jewish politician will have to explain why they don't believe Jesus was the son of God.

We can make this a daily habit. All it will take is a lot of religious intolerance and no brains.

On to the next in the never-ending series of "Let's race-bait Barack Obama" threads. What's the blue plate special for today?

I don't understand. Hagee endorsed McCain, but he doesn't have a role in the McCain campaign, does he? In McCain's autobiography, he didn't talk about the pivotal role Hagee played in his life, did he? Did Hagee baptize McCain's children? Does McCain consult Hagee before making political decisions, or use him to keep his 'moral compass straight?' You better come with something else to explain why your tu quoque response has any merit.

Renowned Faith Leaders Come Together to Support Obama



I'll admit that "African American Religious Leadership Committee is a symbolic role, if any, but Obama hasn't dismissed him from the post.

Honestly, I don't see how Obama could credibly distance himself from the guy who "keeps his priorities straight and moral compass calibrated." He said in the papers last year that he "checks with his pastor" before making big political decisions. He's stuck with him.

I think that Obama had the right idea with the 'crazy old uncle' approach. He is saying straight up that he doesn't agree with everything the man says, but he sticks with him. That is honest, and I hope that he keeps it up.

Thanks for you one liners responses to the questions, nighttimer.

As far as this being a "hit thread" that is complete bunk. This is a campaign issue. Who Obama associates with is relevant, just as who McCain associates with is.

Until recently, I did not realize how out of the mainstream Reverend Wright was. I had heard some talk that his church centered on "Black Values" or "Black Family" and that didn't bother me at all. Different strokes for different folks. I had assumed that the uproar over the Reverend was overhyped.

However, when I saw the video on this, it was more than a shock to me.



Obama was not a church goer until he met Reverend Wright. Wright's fiery oratory caused Obama to become a regular.

According the Chicago Tribune:


Sorry, nighttimer, but Barack Obama is running for President. Who he associates with is relevant. He has said that he has better judgement than the others in the race (pointing to opposing Iraq from the start). His personal decisions about who to associate with and for how long is relevant.

Obama has said that he disagrees with Wright on some issues. We can assume he doesn't think the government imports drugs to deliver to blacks. We can assume that he doesn't believe that white America deserved 9/11 because they were "ignoring Black concerns".



Just as John F Kennedy (and more recently, Mitt Romney) had to answer for where they attended church and whether or not the church influenced their decisions, Barack Obama must do the same.

I on the other hand love the I told you so points it hands me.

I knew the loyalty issue would be a baseline for any prominent black candidate.

Should Barack Obama get in front of this issue and publicly distance himself from Reverend Wright?]
He's done so to the degree he thinks it expedient. Jump too high and the press might smell fear.

Shrug and smile works.

Does Obama agree with Reverend Wright on some of these issues?
Vague.

Which issues?

Is Obama, as the Skeptical Brotha claims, a "craven political operator" for not sticking by his pastor?
Anyone who attends church regularly knows you're not always gonna agree with the pastor. No need to hide it.

Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?
Only if the GOP works it... and they will. Not high profile but the Muslim e-mail class stuff.

It won't work except on unlikely Obama voters though, its poison for Mccain to touch directly looks too dirty for the Maverick.

I gave your questions the responses they deserved. No more and no less.



Sure, but you aren't starting any threads about the anti-Catholic, Armageddon fanatic John Hagee, are you? It's not a campaign issue. Some bored reporters with too much time on their hands before the Pennsylvania primary and a handful of irrelevant bloggers want to make it a campaign issue.

As if a speech here and a quote there by a Black pastor indicates Barack Obama endorses or believes in every word that passes from Pastor Wright's lips. This phony "issue" is a distraction. It won't stop one person from losing their home and it won't provide health insurance for one child and it won't bring one soldier home from Iraq.

It's just time for yet another in the ongoing series of "Obama Overload" hit threads providing promises of lurid and disturbing revelations and shocking potential scandals. This is fodder fit for The National Enquirer, not America's Debate.

Odd isn't it how McCain merits two or three open threads and just about the same for Clinton, but Obama gets over half-a-dozen threads on and the majority of them set up on the premise to criticize, condemn and damn near crucify the man? I'm waiting for the "Al Qaeda wants Obama in '08" or "Barack Obama. The Antichrist?" or "Barack dumps Michelle for Oprah" threads.

Amlord, we've both been on this board long enough to notice this is more than a curious coincidence. It's a deliberate pattern of disinformation, smear tactics and character assassination. That, or several members from The Clinton Campaign and the Republican National Committee are impersonating board members.

Some accidents don't just happen. Some are planned and this doesn't pass the giggle test.



And he has. He says he's a Christian and he believes in God and not in everything his former pastor says. I'd like to say I'm sorry that's not good enough of a repudiation and denouncement for you, but that would indicate I'm surprised and I am anything but.

A lot disgusted, but not a bit surprised.

How seriously can we take a thread that has a factual mistake in the second paragraph and remains unedited, even after nighttimer corrected the error. It’s good for creating hysteria, but without editing still provides misinformation and is not good for reasoned debate.


It's former pastor. Got that!

Here’s a confirmation from wiki - not my favorite, but better than Fox.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

It seems Wright is best a sort of pastor emeritus.

Obama has distanced himself from Wright. Media Matters set the record straight.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200803130008

You know this amazes me.

When the media should be reporting on issues that effect us most(economy, health care, national security), they are reporting on a loony former pastor of Obama's church.

Guilt by association has never been so popular.

What are you trying to get at AMlord? Are you trying to say that Obama blames the U.S. for 9/11 because his pastor said it?


Two things have happened this election that I was glad to see come about. For me I got to see just how ridiculous the republican party is when it comes to fear based politicking(seems like Clinton is adapting this strategy now).

And many democrats now see how power hungry the Clintons are and will nearly stop at nothing to achieve that power.

Does this actually worry my fellow whites?
Really?

Is he somehow going to pass laws stealing your women and force your kids to become Black Panther Nation of Islam Muslims and force good white Christians to live under sharia. Yes I know the Rev Wright is a Christian, but I thought I would get ahead of the misinformation hate train now.
Is Barak somehow going to force through reparations or subvert our intelligence agencies to allow a nefarious scheme to overthrow America and Western Civilization as we know it?
Is it really so surprising that there are still elements in America that feel abused by how it all seems to really work to them? The fellow seems to have been around a long while and seems to be a relic from the past that hasn't moved on yet. Plenty of old fossils in America with views long ago discredited. Lets go back to Farrakan and the KKK. Where are they today in relevance--right along with bell bottoms and the rebel nature of the counterculture movement. Something to be reminisced about on an hour long show on VH1.

Are you incapable of knowing people with off the wall viewpoints and not resist being influenced by those views. Do you have to recite your beliefs every morning to remember what you believe -- actually i guess for some they need 5 days a week of talk radio and Sunday at church to remember what they are supposed to think about anything.

Do we need to form a protective citizen militia filled with dedicated American conservative god fearing citizens to be forearmed against the coming government aggression? Oops, that was tried and it led to the only other successful terrorist attack on American soil since the Black Tom in the early 1900's. Besides conservatives are all for government intrusion -- and internment. Instead we could just commission Blackwater I guess.


Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?
Well Hilary does need to gather a new voting block to defeat Obama, and she has already tried to trick Obama into using race. If she fails the GOP and its Swiftboat wannabes I am sure will go nuclear trying to use fear since they haven't the reputation left to try and use the values they sold out.

Sometimes it is embarrassing being Caucasian.

Amlord- I will ask you one question before I move on- Jerry fallwell and Bob Jones are two of the most hate filled scumbags this planet has ever seen, and Rev Wright's positions are much more mundane and centrists compared to those two-

is there a racist double standard being applied here? Are you okay with GW's endorsing of Bob Jones philosophies by his speaking there in the 2000 election cycle?

I would describe this as a "racist hit piece" myself based on the lack of outrage directed at Republicans for thier coziness to the religious right, and much more evil and outrageous stances on issues.

If he is judged based on this preacher- it is a racist double standard, no doubt about it.

BTW- in case you didn't know- Bob Jones University graduate Rev Phelps is the one that protests soldiers funerals with the "god hates fags" signs.

As a white guy who probably agrees with the general afrocentrism of Wright's church, but shudders when he hears stuff about white romans lording over black Israelites, I'm going to put my two cents down here:

In my estimation of my own people, the vast majority of us white folk don't know what to make of a guy like Jerimiah Wright. Especially when ABC parses his sermons for the nail-on-chalkboard moments -- something, by the way, they are totally right and qualified to do. They should apply the same standard to Jerry Falwell as I hope they are applying to Jerimiah Wright.

The secondly we see that clip, some of us are going to hop on board a "told you so" train and navigate over to youtube this very second and write comments about Barack Obama being a reverse racist or a manchurian candidate. Guys who could sit through a Pat Buchanan speech about the hispanic contamination of the American gene without blinking are going to raise an outcry.

But the average, agenda-free white guy or gal, coming home from their sedate, stoic Anglo-protestant church is going to see a clip like these clips and billow up in bewilderment.

So Barack needs to educate us. Not necessarily distance himself from Wright, but he can't let this very prickly cactus fall in the hands of commentators and opinion writers. He needs to explain why a guy like Wright reads the sermons he reads, and how, even with a guy like this baptizing his children, Obama can still bring a divided nation together. His comment about Wright being a "crazy uncle who sometimes says things" is a great start. I know exactly what uncle he's talking about. But he needs to go further.

White folk often suspect black folk of secretly hating or resenting them; hence white guilt, white flight. TO be president of a majority-white nation, Obama will have to implicitly or explicitly address that fear, and this pastor is a great place to start.

I signed on here this morning and the "hypocrisy meter" was pegged on my computer. Screams about "another Obama hit piece" and a "your guy did it too" proclamation, and the usual trollish rant about racism from some quarters. Yet, barely two weeks ago the following posts appeared in another thread.........
here




And then, of course same thread, we have this........



John McCain didn't belong to Hagee's church for 20 years. John McCain wasn't baptized by Hagee and Hagee didn't marry John McCain and his wife. John McCain never wrote a book inspired by a sermon from Hagee, nor has he referenced him as his spiritual advisor. But hey, let's beat up on the old white guy for it. Meanwhile, the young black guy gets a free pass cause he's an "agent of change". And he has an old uncle that's "provocative". Whew! No wonder my meter went off.....



Aquilla

I can give a pass to Obama due to the pass the republicans have been giving thier leaders coziness to the religious right- and once again, much more hateful and evil than anything Wright has to mention.

Falwell is as scummy as a person can be, yet, Reagan ran an election based on empowering those lowlifes.

Double Standard anyone?

I don't see any relevance in who baptized Barack Obama or who married he and his wife.

John McCain also went to Liberty University and kissed Jerry Falwell's fill in the blank.

Some of you protesteth a bit too much for my taste. Yeah, he's the "former" pastor who gave the Sunday sermon until 4 weeks ago. There is no doubt that this man was extremely influential in Obama's life. I don't think that Obama has to respond beyond saying what he has, but to pretend that "oh, he's a FORMER pastor" like that makes him a peripheral figure is ridiculous. He and his church changed Obama's life. No need to shun the man, just say "I don't agree with some stuff" and move on. Which is what Obama has done. I personally prefer my Sundays politics-free, for a lot of reasons. I also go to a church that has "diversity" in the mission statement, rather than "Unashamedly Black," but to each his own...

(deleted unecessary snarky remark)

OIC- as long as the extremist pastor is white, no biggie- but if it is a black pastor with strong principles based on his religion- there is a problem?

This is the type of reasoned debate I expected. I agree whole heartedly with drewyorktimes that Barack needs to explain himself before this gets momentum. I can virtually guarantee you that this will be a 527 campaign ad.

First off, Obama should start with what drew him to Wright's church in the first place. I know it is in his book, but he needs to tell America that it was Wright's anti-apartheid views that struck a chord in him.

Then he can say how Wright's message is really a positive one (I'm making an assumption here that the video clips making the rounds are not the whole of Wright's message). Stress the positive things. Only then will his "crazy old uncle" line be seen as credible.

Let's face it, Barack Obama chose to attend this man's services. He must agree with him on some level. He needs to explain what level that is and emphasize the differences. He's a good speaker, it won't be hard for him to articulate his feelings on the matter.

As far as the Bob Jones University or Reverend Hagee, Aquilla has it about right: neither McCain nor Bush attended services with these people for two decades. They did not write an entire book based upon what they learned there. Saying that you don't agree with all of their views was not good enough for Republicans, why should such a casual dismissal be enough for Obama?



And Barack Obama attended this man's sermons for not years, but decades. If you feel justified in pointing out what McCain did, why are you so miffed about discussing what Obama has done?

Again, this is and will be a real campaign issue. It should be discussed.

This is really a simple issue: It is quite clear from Obama's books and these recent news reports from ABC and other sources that this man, Rev. Wright, has been unduly influential in Obama's life. This isn't a case of some guy going to some megachurch, shaking the pastor's hand as he walks out, and going home. No, this is a case of a man who, for many years, has counted on this pastor as a friend, confidant, and advisor, and still does. Wright is even officially on Obama's campaign staff.

Obama, after hearing a few of the Rev. Wright's racist and virulently anti-American rants, should have changed churches. I left my old church after I encountered some theological problems. He should have left this one, too. Disavowal at this point is too late. If these speeches didn't offend Obama enough to change churches in 1997, 98, 99, 2000, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, then why should we believe Obama is sincere about his "old Uncle" comments now? One can only presume Obama was NOT offended by Wright's viewpoints and indeed must have agreed with them enough to have his wife and kids nutured upon such vitriol at least weekly, if not more often.

Just because Rev. Wright is falling on his sword for his protege and retiring effective May, 2008, doesn't change the fact that Obama came of age under this man's tutelage. In fact, hearing some of his sermons and reading some text from these sermons in Dreams make it very easy to understand Michelle Obama's "for the first time in my adult life I am proud to be an American" viewpoint....

Unfortunately, you are known by the company you keep. And this is not some church he attended, or pastor he heard, when he was 8. This is current company.

Anything McCain has been reported to have done vis-a-vis any religious leader pales in comparison to the longevity, depth and degree of the relationship between Obama and Wright. Such a comparison is specious and foolish.

Reposted:



I don't see the importance. Only "sheepel" as my friend PacPanzer calls them believe everything that comes over the pulpit.

I went to the same church for about 15 years. I was not very popular, because I openly challenged the pastor on a number issues. today I don't agree with much that came over the pulpit.

BOF- I attended my Ma's church for over 30 years, still go there on Easter's and such- more to say hello to old aquaintences than listen to another Baptist harrangue about hell. I couldn't be more anti- right wing religious type- but I still go to that church now and again for old times sake and my Ma's request.

But once again- racist double standard is obvious.

CR, I couldn't understand your first point, and now you said it again. What "racist double standard?" Who are you talking about?

1) He should distance himself if he hopes to get anywhere near the white house. Although I wouldn't have a problem if he did agree with him, he has to recognize that to not distance himself would be political suicide.

2) I can't speak for Obama, and neither can anyone else. All we can do is take him at his word that he doesn't agree with everything he says.

3) No, he's a realistic one.

4) It will be an issue because mainstream Americans don't want to ask the hard question and don't want to rock the boat. Those comments rock the boat.

Where are the outrageous comments? One thing that comes with the territory of being black in this country (for many black folks) is the understanding that our government isn't always righteous. We have our history to draw from in reaching these conclusions. So where many folks hesitate to ask the tough questions, many black folk are given to being skeptical of our gov't's motives and actions. When you grow up hearing stories about how the gov't built freeways through black wall street in Detroit and experimented on black men in Tuskegee, it isn't so hard to imagine that maybe they overthrow some uncooperative government in Central America. If 9/11 was such an atrocious act of terrorism (which it was) because it brutally targeted innocent civilians. So what in the world do we call what we did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki (terrorism)? What do we call the numerous insurgencies our government has sponsored over the years?

Let's look at what else he said...

"the government gives [blacks] the drugs"
CIA, contras, and cocaine... check

"builds bigger prisons"
prison-industrial complex... check

"passes a three-strike law"
50 years in prison for stealing $153 in VHS tapes... check

I would like someone, anyone to show me exactly how what he said is outrageous.

NT... come on man.

I've been off AD for some time due to travel and work being too busy, but frankly, I'd like to address this one. (surprise)

I think Obama, if he were to denounce the more "nutty" things that Wright states would be well served. However, to date, he hasn't that I can find. (please show me if he has).

That would imply, that he might find political gain in atleast marginally being associated with the notions and/or believes them. I don't know that either are true, but neither do I know that they're not.

What I'd like to see is Obama denouncing all of the radical statements about America and terrorism and deserving 9/11 (and the like). If that happened, maybe he'd have a leg to stand on. However, for now, it seems that (deserved or not) he is going to be lumped into the "crazy black man being held down" crowd.

I honestly don't know about McCain and any anti-Catholic statements or affiliations, but if it's true... you'd bet that the media will take the ball and run with it. It will just be a matter of time...

The Black Value System is kind of a tough read for some of us.

Apparently some of you haven’t been paying attention. Obama addressed this in a New York times interview nearly a year ago – April 30, 2007


http://mediamatters.org/items/200803140002


This is totally irrelevant to this topic.

Let's see: Let' start with "Damn, America"....



Nope. But there is a respectful way to criticize the govt, and then there is some hate-filled rant filled with expletives. Have you watched the tapes?




Freeways go where land can be acquired for the lowest price; the syphilis experiments were awful, but at the time, the men were going to die anyway, as there was no cure. Still, no excuse, but you can criticize it without blowing gaskets and saying things like, "where white folks greed runs a world in need;" As if blacks aren't greedy? As far as overthrowing hostile govts, what's your gripe?





During WWII, all sides bombed civilians; this is now outlawed. Why should we be tarred and feathered more than the Germans, the British, the Soviets, the Japanese, just because we invented a bigger stick and saved millions of lives from a Japanese invasion. And plenty of blacks were involved in the war. I guess they should have boycotted it....




There is no evidence the govt sold drugs to blacks in some insidious plan. There were clearly some times when we cooperated with drug dealers to accomplish a greater goal.



Finally, the crime rate has gone down. If you don't commit crimes, you needn't worry about the prisons.




Ditto.

What is so annoying, more than anything else, about men like Wright is they act as if the black community is somehow "holier" than the white community, although in everything from spread of STDs to violent crime, the blacks lead the way; and black pastors are often the greedyist members of the black community, having the most influence, wearing the nicest clothes, driving the biggest cars, and chasing the best whores. MLK was very good a finding the ladies. This is not to say whites do not have the same problems--we do.

The truth is the American community, like all communities in all nations, is fallen and sinful. It really serves no useful purpose for men like Wright and Farrakhan to single out "Blue eyed Satans" as if they are somehow "better".

When a white candidate is backed by an extremist sect- say, Falwell, there is no public outrage of this being made into public policy- at least not from white america- no public outrage over the extremism of Jerry Falwell, no public denunciation of the sect by Reagan demanded- same with GW- GW has never publically said "Bob Jones university is a bastion of racism and bigotry, and I will never speak there nor will I have anything to do with them, and I denounce them and thier views"- as being demanded of Obama on this thread.


http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/More_Geor...ivil_Rights.htm

Repudiates anti-Catholicism despite Bob Jones University

Let me make it crystal clear, Mr. Bush said loudly. “I reject bigotry, I reject prejudice, I repudiate anti-Catholicism and racism.” His proclamation had a specific prompting: thousands of telephone calls reminding voters that Bush had visited Bob Jones University in South Carolina and recounting some of the anti-Catholic sentiment associated with the institution. Bob Jones University [is] an extremely conservative Christian school with a well-known policy against interracial dating. Bush did not acknowledge that controversy as he addressed thousands of students there. “I repudiate the phone calls that came in accusing me of being an anti-Catholic bigot,” Bush said. What about the Bob Jones visit? “I don’t make any apologies for what I do on the campaign trail,” he said.

So it is okay for GW to speak at Bob Jones- though he repudiated NOTHING in front of his audience at Bob Jones- he doesn't make apologies for his speaking at one of the most racist places on earth?

I didn't see CW or Amlord condemning GW in the same light on this subject, same with Aquilla and Aevans, over GWs appearance at this university- which bears an almost exact resemblance to this instance-

Including, as BOF pointed out, Obama's not even being there during the sermon, and saying his own views on the matter.

So why the double standard here?

Rev Wright comes no where near as hate filled and extremist as Jerry Falwell or Bob Jones- yet, Republican leaders have been given a "pass" on this by republicans themselves- I would call that a racist double standard.

Here's the difference: you've just stated you no longer are a member of this church and you don't believe what they believed.

Obama is STILL a member, although he attends much less frequently, and has donated thousands of dollars to this church and Reverend Wright is a member of his campaign. It isn't the same.

Of course I condemn the racism of Bob Jones. It's a shame that Republicans have to pander to them, but they do it to win elections. Surely you aren't suggesting that Obama is merely pandering to his own church? He has attended this church for years. It's his spiritual awakening. He consults the guy before making decisions.

It's not the same thing, so it can't be a "double" standard. If we were discussing Obama pandering to pro-abortion feminists to win Democratic primaries, despite being an avowed Christian, then you would have a point.

Should Barack Obama get in front of this issue and publicly distance himself from Reverend Wright?
I have to admit, seeing Sean Hannity complain about this is one thing, but I've reflected on this some and I have to admit that I understand why people consider this an issue. I disagree with them, as I would anyone who tries to pin my Pastor's previous comments on me. But I do understand the issue around it. My dilemma lies in what to do about it.

I'm an Obama supporter, and I would like to see this issue get addressed more directly. The question is, how? He's already disavowed Rev Wright's statements, and really, can you be any more denigrating than calling him the "Crazy Uncle" no one listens to? Ok, you can, but you gotta admit that's bad.

Amlord makes some salient points about Wright's role in Obama's life. There is no question that he's been a bit of a spiritual mentor for him. My drama teacher was arguably a life mentor for me in high school. Does that mean that I embrace 100% of his political views? 1%? Probably not.

Fact is, Dr. Wright has retired as minister of that church. So the only real move Obama can make that would distance himself would be to remove him from any positions of leadership (even if only symbolic) that are related to his campaign and specifically reject the claims that Dr. Wright made that have people up in arms.

Does Obama agree with Reverend Wright on some of these issues?
I highly doubt it, and I think you do to, Amlord. Hence I wonder why this is really a question.

Is Obama, as the Skeptical Brotha claims, a "craven political operator" for not sticking by his pastor?
This depends on how it is handled. Dr. Wright obviously has played a significant role in his life. How Obama asks him to withdraw from the limelight of his campaign is up to him and will determine how cravenly political it appears.

Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?
I think it will get some play for some time, but eventually it will die. It just doesn't have the teeth or the legs of something like the Rezko stuff. And McCain is weaponless to use this against Obama as long as he openly embraces Hagee's endorsement.

I mean, as much as their brothers drove them nuts, did we really hold George W. Bush, Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter accountable for their family? Just because Wright baptized his children doesn't mean he embraces his political views.

The only reason this has legs right now is because the media has so little to go after Obama on. He doesn't have the skeletons that a Clinton, Kennedy or Giuliani has. So they take what they can get, they go after his retired pastor.

Oh yeah, we will beat up on "the Old White Guy" because if guilt-by-association is the soup de jour then we're going to serve up a big, ol' heaping bowl of it for John McCain and both of you can choke it down.

It doesn't matter if John McCain doesn't belong to John Hagee's church for 20 years, or wasn't baptized by Hagee and Hagee didn't marry John McCain and his wife. It doesn't matter if John McCain never wrote a book inspired by a sermon from Hagee, nor referenced him as his spiritual adviser.

That's not how the guilt-by-association game works. How it works is, have you repudiated and denounced the support of a religious figure who uses inflammatory and occasionally far-out language?

"Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews" ~ Jerusalem Countdown, page 114

Don't give me all these weasel words and jive talk about "hypocrisy meters," Aquilla. Right now, you--and your Old White Guy---are both soaking in the hypocrisy right up to your necks.

Don't gimme that "well, that's bad, but this is worse" doublespeak, Aquilla. You know John Hagee is a anti-Catholic bigot and his self-described "hellfire and brimstone" speeches are going to come back to bite McCain in the back of his Sansabelt slacks.

Don't tell me about Jeremiah Wright's speeches and how much of a headache they're going to be for Barack Obama. Tell me about John Hagee's long and documented history of anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic and anti-gay bigotry and the books he's written full of this toxic venom, and then tell me why John McCain gets a pass from his religious nutcase supporter.

If your hypocrisy meter was spazzing on your computer, you should have done a self-diagnosis check-up. McCain's problems with this idiot are only just beginning.

But I don't want to waste time and bandwidth on it now. Nobody cares what McCain is doing in March. Let it marinate for a while until it's just right and we can all savor it together when we get closer to Election Day.





Q: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all over the wire today (from an ABC News story), a statement that your pastor (the Rev. Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's South Side) made in a sermon in 2003 that instead of singing "God Bless America," black people should sing a song essentially saying "God Damn America."

A: I haven't seen the line. This is a pastor who is on the brink of retirement who in the past has made some controversial statements. I profoundly disagree with some of these statements.

Q: What about this particular statement?

A: Obviously, I disagree with that. Here is what happens when you just cherry-pick statements from a guy who had a 40-year career as a pastor. There are times when people say things that are just wrong. But I think it's important to judge me on what I've said in the past and what I believe. link (emphasis added)

Would you like today's winning lottery numbers as well?

Hey he goes to the church and even gave this lunatic $22,000 a couple of years ago. You can bet if the pastor at McCain’s church said anywhere near the anti- American, racist drivel that comes out of this idiots mouth the NYT would be all over him like a blanket and so would you. Tell me I am wrong on that.

Umm... BOF... it seems that this is the only reference to Wright. One line, specifically about the 9/11 bit.

Wright also makes comments about "God Damn America", "Hillary Clinton was never called a ____", etc.

From what I can find (with limited time and my friends at Google), that's all there is sir.

A little more provacative than the 9/11 bit.

Don’t forget the line about the government creating the HIV virus to kill people of color – how can you have anyone as nutty as this guy is as a “close friend” and “spiritual advisor” when he spouts this crap, to the cheers of hundreds, while you are sitting in church. Is his replacement going to be different?

Is there anything in Obama's speeches, debates, or any of his life work that would give you reason to believe that he supports either of those statements? That's what is so troubling about even asking these questions. Wright's statements are so outrageous, do you honestly think that Obama would be running for President and be this close to the nomination if he had done a single act or uttered a solitary word that embraced those ideas? And no, being a member of his church doesn't count.

MYSTIFICATIONS BY THE AMERICAN POLITICAL MINDSET, number 24876

Unless Barack Obama is proposing that Reverend Wright hold political office in any future administration that a President Obama might create, the opinions of Reverend Wright DO NOT MATTER. This is a non-issue.

But that's coming from a resident of a country where the head of state get the job based on who their parents were, where the executive is formed within the legislature rather than elected, and any politician who so much as mentioned their closeness to any religious leader in any context other than sorrowful comments on the announcement of said religious leader's death would not get elected to parliament in the first place.

Should Barack Obama get in front of this issue and publicly distance himself from Reverend Wright?
No, because it's utterly irrelevant to Obama's own views. If you want to know what they are, ask Obama himself. Then if, in the event he gets elected, he does or says anything that contradicts them, hold him to account. You have to expect some degree of honesty in your politicians, surely? i.e., When they say their view on a subject is X, you have to assume that they aren't lying to get elected and that it's really Y

Does Obama agree with Reverend Wright on some of these issues?

Which ones? Ask him, and base your trust and your vote on the answer. Don't base it on what he might think.

Is Obama, as the Skeptical Brotha claims, a "craven political operator" for not sticking by his pastor?

I've no idea how important this is in America. Being a Brit, the more likely thought in the public mind would be that he would be a "craven political operator" if it was public knowledge that he was that close to any religion, let alone religious leader, but then we Brits (despite being constitutionally Christian) like to keep religion in the same box as sexuality - it's a private business that's faintly distasteful when paraded in public.

But that's just us. Most British hostility to militant or strident religion of any kind (Dr Iain Paisley's Ulster Protestantism is as disliked on the mainland as Osama bin Laden's Islam) is based on "why can't they just shut up about it?" more than anything else.

Will this be a big issue for the remainder of the primary season? Will it be a big issue in the general election?

It should not be, because it has no bearing on Obama's views. We all know and like people yet disagree with almost everything they say, especially when it comes to politics. And Obama's views are a good deal less important than his policies, many of which are already in the public domain in some detail.

Where is the policy debate, or doesn't that start happening until there is one official nominee per party?

Or are all these concerns about the views of associates of the candidates just the usual American Presidential ad hominem mudslinging that every says is sordid muckracking of the worst kind that is utterly irrelevant to the debate when some of the mud sticks to their guy, but which is fair comment that it is one's solemn democratic duty to say when the crud is flying in the opposite direction?

And if it is, how come the American right always seem to be first into the dungpile and to have more people willing to heft shovels?

You already have, NT, you just don't like it when your "soup" gets returned. "Crazy old uncle" in this game just doesn't cut it.


Aquilla

So are you telling me that if McCain sat every week and listened to a KKK type racist anti American bigot – and called him a close friend this would not be an issue? Speeches and debates tell us what he wants us to hear. His associates and their beliefs also tell us things about him he may not include in his speeches. Even if he buys 10% of this drivel it is an issue.

I believe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to objectionable preaching and teaching by this alleged man of the cloth. And please, don't insult our intelligence with the 'loony-uncle' crap. No good parent would leave his child alone in a room with that 'loony-uncle'...and for good reason.

I love the 'I wasn't there but I think he was just trying to be provocative' excuse too. There are plenty of provocateurs out there preaching death-to-Ameirca, I guess BO will make excuses for them too.

This, and other-yet-to-be-revealed items that have shaped BO's thinking and values will not go away in this campaign. Nor should they. After all, our country's future is on the line and sometimes a wolf in sheep's clothing really is a wolf.

So you feel it is cherry picking to bring up the fact that Wright has made these statements? How would you react if someone were to say that harping on Hagee's comments is simply cherry picking?

This isn't the same as the idiotic Weather Underground connections the rabid right is also talking about. This is an association that was pursued by Barack Obama, not for votes or the support of Wright's congregation, but because Obama finds a connection with Wright personally. Obama has not shied away from saying he is close with Reverend Wright.

Sorry if most Americans will not give a pass when a guy says that the government purposefully introduced AIDS to kill black men (although Wertz might agree). Obama has specifically decried Wright's comments about 9/11 (thanks BoF for the link). What about his "God damn America" comments? What about importing drugs for blacks comments?

Well, at least "Goddamn America" is a refreshing change from the constant barrage of "God Bless America" we had the last seven years.

I wish people would just step back and let the "Big Guy" exit the picture altogether. I wished that for Kennedy and Romney. I wish it for Obama and McCain.

Your lack of time to do research isn't my problem, aevans176

What happened? Did your boss order you to stop posting on company time?

Edited to add:

I suppose, if there is a silver lining in this thread and one of the many similar ones started by quick, it is this. No one here seems be among the 13% who think Obama is a Muslim. For whatever it's worth, we've established that Obama is a Christian.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23633749/

I can see “Swift Boat Alley” coming on this one. Get that "goddamned" 527 money rolling, boys Hopefully Obama will handle the crap better than did John Kerry.

BTW: The stock markets were all down dramatically today, despite speeches by George W. Bush and Ben Bernanke.

Dow 11,951.09 - 194.65
NASDAQ 2,212.49 - 51.12
S&P 1,288.14 - 27.34

Shouldn't we be addressing "real" issues like the economy?

Being a Chicagoan, I'm familiar with Obama's church. However, I did have to correct Mrs. Carlito when she told me that Obama "refused to swear his oath on the bible." (that would be Keith Ellison, an actual Muslim)

I wouldn't play too much into the 13%. One-third of Democrats believe that 9/11 was an inside job, and something like 10% of Americans believe that Elvis is still alive. Half of Americans believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. There are a certain percent of people in the world who are just misinformed. Maybe they hear some of this stuff from their pastors...

Perhaps you are correct. My skepticism about religion is not without foundation.

I wish we could take "god" and religion completely out of presidential politics, but I'm not naive enough to think that's about to happen.

When I was eighteen, in 1960 I attended a Baptist Church, as did my peers. The pastor preached a sermon urging members to vote against Kennedy because of his Catholic faith. I went up after the service and told him his sermon was out of order and that if I were old enough I would vote for Kennedy. Eighteen-year-olds could not vote until the 1964 election.

The pastor told me that if I didn't like what he preached I could go elsewhere. Apparently there were enough sheepel to support his "ministry."

Please excuse this tirade. Every time I remember things about that Baptist church, my blood boils, but I've saw the ugliness of some of the things that are being debated here nearly half a century ago. It's nothing new.

Seems to me what we've established here is that anyone who dares to raise the same kinds of questions about Obama that have been raised repeatedly about McCain will be branded as a racist and bigot. What we've established here is the hypocrisy of the Obama supporters. Now, BoF wants us to talk about "issues" instead. Fine, let's do that as soon as Obama starts talking substance instead of platitudes. Meanwhile, all we have are Oprah moments, people fainting in the aisles at his rallies and the "excitement" of a new day in America when Michelle Obama can "finally feel proud of her country". But, oh no! We dare not bring things like this up and risk "offending" people. Gee, nobody told me that when people here regularly trash the Swift Boat Veterans for telling the truth about the scumbag giggilo John "reporting for duty" Kerry. A man who lied before Congress and built his political career from those lies. But hey! It's ok, nevermind that Obama's "spiritual advisor", his pastor for the past 20 years makes outrageous comments about America. He's just an "old uncle" who says "provocative things" from time to time. He's off-limits.... And so is Michelle Obama (although Fred Thompson's wife was a "trophy"), and so is Barack Obama. After all, they're black, and more importantly, they're liberal.


I would love for this campaign to begin to center on the issues, just as soon as Obama starts talking about them. When that happens, McCain will clean his clock.


Aquilla

But is this issue really about “god” or “religion” but association. Before we make this man the most powerful person in the world we might want to lean as much about him as possible. And having Wright as a friend, confidant. “uncle” or whatever for 20 years should concern us – shouldn’t it?

I don't particularly want to talk about McCain's religion. To his credit he's been disowned by James Dobson. That's a positive sign.

Republicans, however, will gobble up this swift boat moment. Of course, they don't want to talk about the economy. McCain has said he doesn't know much about it and Bush has made a mess of it.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politi...n_its_abou.html

If you can't debate economics, then get a 527 to trash Obama, his, wife and pastor. Seems fair to me.

Note: I had to post the entire previous post to get certain characters to show properly on screen.

Edited to add:


Do you mean association or guilt by association? That has already been addressed on this thread. Try making an actual contribution to a thread instead just posting something.

It doesn't take a 527 to do anything. I googled "Trinity UCC wright" and found everything I posted here.

You don't find it the least bit relevant that the only man who can bring america together^TM, the man who is beyond and transcending race spent years listening to a black nationalist preacher on Sundays?

I mean, the Senator who is going to fix what's wrong with Washington secured an earmark for his wife's hospital. The guy who is beyond corruption got the land for his house from a political shakedown artist. These contradictions are the kind of thing that people look for when vetting candidates, no?