Childrens television shows in America have an odd sense of controversy that center around serious subjects such as weather or not to have a Sesame Character with HIV, or weather "Cookies are a Sometimes Food".

In a video released today, the Middle East Media Research Institute released an airing of a Hamas puppet show which depicted the confrontation of a young Muslim and President Bush, where in the end, he stabs Bush to death.

Transcript (CLICK HERE)

Video (with subtitles) HERE (CLICK HERE)


Questions for Debate:


1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?

2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine?

1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?

It looked like a low budget Dragon Ball Z. The dialogue was horrible. Is it any more brainwashing than GI Joe was to us as kids? At the end of the day America was good, the terrorist were evil. Good fought and defeated evil.

2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

I think it will be as effective as GI Joe was to us... take that how you want.

3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine.

A combination in my opinion. The personal revenge was justified through twisted religious doctrine.

Nothing new here. This is standard.

There has been a Hamas cartoon series employing Mickey mouse to instruct children on the joys of martyrdom and how and why to kill Jews. And here is Mickey mouse again doing Allah's good work.

Yes, Droop, that is so very GI Joe! You can't even tell a difference. Except for the mouse costume.

Is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

Must not be working, because it's really hard to find young suicide bombers and violent extremists in that part of the world.

1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?

Yup. Its pure indoctrination. Old school stuff, the sort of thing Goebbels taught us and Orwell described so well:

Link.


2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

Goebbells is often considered a master in the art of political indoctrination, but compared to Mohammed, he was a rank amateur. A mere dabbler in the art of creating murderers. Islam is the ultimate expression of supremacy and what your seeing in this video is a 1400 year old modus operandi that has had to be put down by force, time after time after time.

It has certainly worked alright. Check out this story for a good example of what a daily dosis of hate can do. Or this one.


3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine?

Personal revenge? Whats the difference when your holding the Sword of Islam, and you've turned the White House turned into a mosque?

A lot of people in the west don't want to believe this stuff is real. That one day soon perhaps the Muslims will wake up and see the error of their ways. But why should they? The USA gives money to the Palestinians, so does the EU.

We pay them to make propaganda telling their children to murder us.

And yes, I understand there is a slight difference between Fatah and Hamas, one is a rabid bunch of Jew hating murderers just waiting to destroy Israel, and the other is a rabid bunch of Jew hating murderers just waiting to destroy Israel, but who we don't give money to, at least not directly.

edited to add

Droop.

Were you indoctrinated to commit terrorism by by GI Joe?

I don't believe the GI Joe comparison fits since we have never been under immediate invasion. If we were do you believe we would not fight fiercely for our country down to the last man? Maybe not where you live but in Texas we use deadly force when strangers try to invade our home, imagine what we would be capable of if someone tried to invade our country. Whether the adventures of G.I. Joe had a part in this I am not sure though.

I think a more fair comparison would be from the other side, such as the Israeli children signing shells to be used to kill Arabs.

Absolutely not!! Do you think the little kid is being indoctrinated to be a terrorist??

You see GI Joe got me believing early in life that America is full of "Heroes" And we fight for justice and right in the world. GI Joe taught me that if I hear the word "terrorism" that I am fighting evil.

We can move our militarily globally... set up shop in any part of the world, kill any number of "bad guys", dismiss the innocents civilians as "casualties of war", and at the end of the day be confident that I am a good guy.

NO ONE is indoctrinated to be the bad guy, every one is indoctrinated to be the GOOD GUY!!

In the play, who was good?? Who was Evil?? In GI Joe who is good??? Who is evil??

Does it matter that my country is ALWAYS invading another country and killing the people "over there" NOPE!!!

Does it matter that my nation through war and sanctions is responsible for hundreds of thousands of death in Iraq?? Not really.

You see GI Joe has trained me to understand... I am always, ALWAYS the good guy. We could be in Denmark tomorrow MOIF, and we will still be GI Joe, and you would be the new Cobra.

Any indoctrination of children to hate is offensive. On the other hand, I share droop224's view of the indoctrination of Americans although it goes much farther than just GI Joe, which I'm sure he meant only as an example. The charges against Bush in the clip were largely true even if the targeted audience is unfortunate. Frankly, I didn't find the clip as offensive as Bush making a joke about looking for WMDs under the furniture after using them to launch a war that has killed and displaced millions. Nor was it as offensive as McCain's "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb Iran" [i]joke/i]. After all, this might really happen along with hundreds of thousands of more deaths.

Oh absolutely, GI Joe is just an example, a fun one at that. At the tender age of 5, that's right FIVE ( I still occasionaly wetted my pants at night at that age.... occasionally ), I had been trained to place my hand over my heart and solemnly swear my allegiance to the Flag of this nation and to the Republic for which that Flag stands.

And at 18, I had no qualms about taking that allegiance one step farther and enlisted into the United States military. I swore to defend this nation from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic, that's right, Citizens can get it too, if they get too stupid!!

And some of you likely think my tone is sarcastic. But I am deadly serious at the same time. You see, it doesn't matter what I see, because I'm smart enough to know "me against the world" mentality, just gets "me" knocked on my tailbone. So yeah, most of my nation is thoroughly indoctrinated. Most of us believe we are the good guys regardless of how our national policies affect the world around us.

And most people would see anyone saying something like "God damns America for.... blah blah blah" as utterly offensive. Most Americans are appalled at the idea that our foreign policies and treatment of other humans could ever be the reason they want to hurt us... It is abhorrent to think "our chickens come home to roost".

And away from , Droop drinking the kool aid too. Pledging to the flag, Standing when the anthem plays, touting my military service in the Marines, hating the terrorists and Screaming "I love this COUNTRY....." and "YOOOOOO JOOOOOEEE!!" Because when you are dealing with the level of indoctrination this nation undergoes... the average person has three options, stand in front of the Patriotic train and get run over, stay off the Train and get left behind, or get on the train put on the blinder and sing "God Bless America" all the way to the next war zone. And I got the Barry White voice going, just singing away.

Absolutely! Just what do you think 'Sword of Islam' is refering to?

Link.
Simple and straight to the point. This is the message being given. Use terror as a weapon. Cut off heads and terror will be your god given strength.



Utter nonesense. The USA is not responsible for 'hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq'. What sort of agitprop have you been digesting?

The people who killed hundreds of thousands are the ones responsible for those deaths. The Sunni, the Shi'a and the Kurdish Iraqi's who used American intervention as an excuse to knock off every one in their way. Yes, America has a share in the blame, as does every other member nation of the UN who has ever stood by and done nothing whilst people were being slaughtered in the name of what ever.

Don't try to tell me though, that GI Joe is some how equivalent to the specific murder of a world leader by a child bearing the 'sword of Allah' on a little childrens prgramme. You show me the episode where Big Bird knifes Ghaddafi and then I'll concede the point.


The thing is Droop, 'your' already in Denmark, and you are the good guys. six decades of not being invaded by Germany is testament to that.

Droopster, I am just naive enough to believe that most of the time, we have been the good guy, or at least more civilized than those against whom we have fought. Anyone wants to contest that, I am ready to argue. Heck, go read Flags of our Fathers (the book--never seen the flick).

We self-flagellate way too much.

I don't know some Holy sword, that represents righteous wrath of muslims to the evil infidels of the world.


Earth to MOIF, we all use terror as a weapon. Why do you think we keep building bigger and better weapons?? So that people will be too afraid for their life to fight us. Of course, maybe you thought operation "Shock and Awe" was just really good firework show.



Now you've done it... now I have to look up a damn word, because you had to flex your vocabulary...

OK... so we all swallow propaganda, but mines is worse cause you thing it of a communistic value??



Well what's our share?? Would you say it is more than 3000 innocent people?? At the end of the day if we are responsible for more loss of innoccent life, are we still the good guy?



No their indoctrination is not equivelant to ours. It is crude, weak and blunt. It is not as subtle, nor as refined. But yes we all are indoctrinated into our societies, so that is the comparison I am making.

Big Bird!!



That's right MOIF, we are and we are!! So you are correct on both points, and we apprecciate you not thinking about what exactly are the chances that Germans would've invaded in the last 30-40 years, if we weren't there.

Sword of Islam refers to militant Islam. It is a direct reference to Islam as the means by which terrorism can, and will be enacted upon the infidel. You asked if the children watching this show were being indoctrinated. The answer is yes. They are being indoctrinated into believing violence in the name of Islam will set them free.


MOTHERSHIP TO DROOP, the United States of America is a nation founded on secular laws. Any government agent or organ breaking the laws your country upholds can be held to account.

You cannot however hold a dead suicide bomber to account, nor can you argue with an ideology that receives its authority from an omnipotent, invisible, all powerful deity.

Go ahead and try.


That depends entirely on your morality as a country. It is not always illegal to kill people. Defence of the nation is usually regardd as just. You just have to decide for yourselves whether or not your current government is actually defending your country, and if so, from whom?

I have a sneaking suspicious feeling that the real enemy is not the dead peasantry of Iraq, but rather the ideology they subscribed to.

I can't tell you what this war is really about because I don't know.


Well, if pedantry is your game, then you can boil all education, child rearing and parental love down to indoctrination.

The difference lies in what you imprint on the minds of your young. Telling them their country is a grand and glorious thing is not something to be ashamed of unless you abuse that pride for nefarious reasons.

Teaching your children to murder people in the name of a religion is not the same thing at all. That is just evil, pure and simple.

As I said before, the real difference lies in accountability. If you hold your leaders accountable for their actions, then your not in the same league as bearded zealots who send handicapped people and children to army check points wearing high explosive vests.


Do you know how much fire power the Warsaw pact had in Eastern Germany and Poland? How many armoured divisions. How many millions of men just waiting for the order to move west?

Do you know that the Soviet plan for my country was not to even bother to invade in the classic sense, but simply to nuke two of our city's from the get go and give us 48 hours to surrender before nuking the rest. And thats not US propaganda either. NATO never knew the Soviet standing orders. We expected to be invaded from the south again, but when Danish historians got access to the Kremlin's archives, they were amazed to discover that Denmark would have been annhiliated had it not been for the presence of NATO troops in central Europe, specifically US troops backed by those nasty superior weapons you mentioned earlier. They were the only thing stopping an Eastern German armoured division taking control of Denmark.

It surprises me that some are so concerned about a pupet show thousands of miles away, where children whre killing off a puppet of George W. Bush.

On this very board we've had three people predict the actual, not effigy, assassination of a viable presidential candidate. One poster even told that I was from Texas and that I knew what was going on.

Is this not domestic terrorism? Is it less dangerous than the puppet show?

Nice tey azwhitewolf, but I can't get the emotions rolling about this thread.

1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?

It could be but I think it is more of a reminder that things just plain suck! The reinactment of violence is indictative of society that has undergone considerable trauma.

2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

There is no real outlet for Palestinian expression. As sad and misguided as it is, I think the message is for kids to be guarded because their life will not have very many opportunities to escape a violent future.

3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine?

There is no doubt an open hostility expressed in the play. However, to not kill the Bush figure is to accept the dreary fate of Palestian life as a new normal. Here I think the boy puppet's losses were exemplified over an entire society. Failure to act would simply compound the error by giving their enemies carte blanche to with as they please.

Ok but who definition of "good guy" do we go with?? Ours or theirs??



Well GI Joe used violence too MOIF. They had Gunships, tanks and crossbows and swords... of course guns, and they always solved their problems with Cobra with violence. They are taught that violence, as long as it is against evil, in the name of Islam will set you free. WEe are taught the same, but we are secular so we replace religion with nationalism.


huh?! You start out saying they use terror... i respond that we all use terror... you respond by pointing out... that our government authorizes the terror so it is OK because it is within our laws.. I think?!?! See what indoctrination will do to you...

And once again you are correct, you can not hold a dead person to account... excellent point!!



There is no such thing as morality of a country. And if there is... it is as it is all over the world... we are "good guys"



Good word... murder. Funny how you chose the word murder, why not killing. Let's be frank here they weren't advocating murder, they were advocating killing. And I can tell you as an American at a young age i knew that killing other humans formy nation was considered an honourable thing to do. I mean we use the word "fight", but come on, I knew war wasn't about "putting up the dukes, jab, bob and weave"

So it is evil for them to be taught it is right to kill for their religion, but it is not evil for us to be taught that it is right to kill for our country.

Again, the proof is in the pudding on how powerful _{(and subtle)} our ndoctrination techniques. As an American citizen, let's face it, I poop gold and it smells like flowers.



Are you safe now... Are we there now??

Here's the thing though Droop. The people who make GI Joe, and all other war dolls, are not catering to nationalism. GI Joe can be bought any where on Earth, which is why he fights against a fictious terrorist group.

At worst you can say such war dolls cater to a vague violent mind set, but thats pretty weak as a counter argument to child indoctrination by Islamic extremism given that all 'action entertainment' caters to the same vague fantasy that violence can be used to solve problems. There is a clear distinction between watching a Bruce Willis action film, and watching some poor guy in an orange jump suit having his head cut off.

Teaching children to hate specific, real life people is wicked. Therte's no excuse for it, and it can't be compared to western mass manufactured dolls with their fictious ninja enemies.

I didn't say it was okay to use terror. I said, if it happens, then secular law can bring those responsible to justice. They cannot hide behind god given authority. This is not even close to being the same thing.

Islamic terrorism on the other hand cannot be questioned, and there fore seldom is by those countries which don't have a strong secular military, because it is assumed by the faithful, on the basis of the teachings of the Quran, that jihad carried out in the name of Islam, is Allah's divine will.

The rest of planet Earth maintains a hands off attitude simply because it is (conveniently) assumed that a religion must be peaceful. It is apparently inconceivable that a religion might possibly be nothing more than a simple pack of lies used to maintain power over people too scared to take responsibility for their own lives.


There is the law which is a codified morality if it is anything. Secular law is what really seperates us from riff raff who would make a doll show on childrens TV advocating the murder of a real person.


Because the show in question advocated the murder of GW Bush at the hand of a child, not a killing, a murder. A child is not delegated by a court of law to carry out an execution, nor was the child meant to be a soldier. It was a young child, stabbing GW Bush in revenge for the perceived responsibility Bush has for various deaths in Iraq. That is illegal, hence it is murder.


Yes it is evil for them to advocate killing for their religion because they impose their religious convictions upon others outside of their religion. That is unjust violence akin to murdering some one because they have a differnt skin colour, gender or sexuality.

It is questionable as to whether or not it is evil to kill for your county. It depends on why you are doing it. The real difference lies in accountability however. You as an American, can be held to account and punished for murdering a foreigner, or a homosexual, or some one from a different ethnic group, just because they were not like you, where as the Quran grants Muslims the right to murder kuffar's, indeed in certain passages it even obliges them to do so!


The fact that your writing these posts demonstrates the flaw in your argument. If American propaganda was so potent, you'd not be in here trying to argue relativism between Hamas and the USA.


American forces are being phased out of some European nations and phased in to others. The emphasis has moved away from Russia and towards Iran. Putin doesn't like that one bit, since it reveals how impotent Russia has become. Russian logic dictates that if people aren't scared of your military then you must begin to rattle your sabre so Putin has begun making vague threats and prodding at us with his remaining strategic bomber fleet.

No one is worried however. Strategic bombers are out dated and largely symbolic and the only threats Russia can make today that get people scared deal with natural gas prices of which Russia has control.

Yes we are safer. For now. Thanks to US military protection Europe has grown rich and comfortable despite the highest taxes on Earth, despite the over crowding and mass immigration, despite centuries of traditional warfare and never ending regional conflicts, and despite the EU with its aggressive expanionist agenda.

Despite rampant anti Americanism in Europe today, the fact remains that the Soviet Union was held in check by the United States of America and so many people of Europe (but far from all) are only free to be ungrateful anti yank bigots because of the United States of America.

For that reason alone, I supported Danish troops serving in Iraq along side our American allies. Its not all propaganda you see. America has earned our respect and admiration.

Who's talking about the dolls. I'm talking at the cartoon series that came out in the 80's. Here were the opening lyrics

QUOTE

[/i]
So we can see, it does take aim at our nationalism. They were AMERICAN heroes!! And it is not the first to do this. In fact, their are all kinds of articles on how we had comic books fighting evil. Whether that evil be Communism, Facism, the Nazis, the Vietamese. You have Captain America and Iron Man...blah blah blah



Secular law makes it legal and secular law defines what is just and unjust. Thus, the fact I use terror, legally, does not make it any less terrorizing... or does it?? This goes to your argument about murder so I may as well throw it in there too.



Again, murder is a legal definition. It only has stregnth in legal issues. You kill a person. You are convicted of murder. I'm sure that our invasion of Iraq and killing of it's citizens was illegal to the law of the land we invaded. So what!! That did not make our soldiers and pilots murderers. Because while they may have purposefully killed people, they did not break our laws.

The whole puppet show was representative. The child, George Bush, and sword of Islam all represented greater meanings. I mean, really, what are the chances George Bush will be alone in the room with a child carrying the sword of Islam or even a butcher knife??



No it isn't cause we do the same thing even better with secular law. What exactly has secular law prevented us from doing?? Killing, bombing, invading, warring, toppling governments, creating governments, indebting governments, indenturing humans, consuming other's resources, exiling peoples, imprisoning peoples...

Secular law only allows people like you to feel superior, when you do pretty much the same things. It legitimizes your world view, it allows you to do exactly what you are doing in this debate.



Just the oppossite. The fact that I have to argue this is how successful propoganda is. Humans are basically the same. If they weere raised in my society they would be more like the average American. If I was raised in their society I would be like the average middle easterner.

We all are told, and believe we are fighting for the same thing. Freedom, Justice, Honor, Family, God... all the things that represent "good" in our lives. We all think we are the "good guys" They are no different. The reason why we are more effective, IMO, is we have been able to convince ourselves we are fighting for OUR freedom, though we have fought a war of invasion on OUR soil, I believe since the creation of our country.

That takes mad propoganda skills to convince people that we are constantly in need to defend ourselves, even though we are the sole super power in the world.

I'm still not seeing any specific examples of real people being targetted by GI Joe Droop, nor am I seeing any of these 'propaganda figures' being vengeful kids.

Yes, certainly it is normal for human beings to justify their actions by claiming to the 'good guys'. I'm not arguing against that. What I'm saying is, thats not equivalent to showing small children that its okay to stab a real life person to death and convert another country to Islam.


That is correct. If the law allows you to terrorize people then its certainly terrorism.

And has the law allowed you to terrorize, or murder any one?


Well in point of fact, if they deliberately killed non combatants, then they have broken your laws, and those who have been found to do so have also been charged and convicted.


Irrellevent. We are dealing with a programme aimed at the under ten age bracket. Children this young do not posses your finely tuned sense of context.


All of the above. In case its escaped your attention, these things are illegal. I think you will find that in each case you choose to examine, the crime was carried out beyond the remit of the law.

Secular law can only prevent where its authority extends. If people break the law for some perceived 'greater good', then they are no better than people who follow some hocus pocus divine law.


No. My sense of being a rational human being who doesn't need to prop up his existence with a fairy tale god is what makes me feel superior.

I do not do the same things, and incidently, neither does my country. GI Joe is not aired here, nor does our televions feature Danish hero's destroying evil terrorist threats to our nation/humanity/what ever. Don't confuse your own national inferioirty complex with my Islamophobia.


Exactly. Humans are essentially all the same, which is why we know that Islam is a load of rubbish, there is no Allah or paradise full of black eyed virgins awaiting the faithful and why there is no excuse for murdering people on that pretence or teaching children to murder people and subjagate their nations.


I think the word 'not' might be missing form that lot, but never mind, I get the idea.

There's nothing wrong with fighting for good, no matter which variant of good you might hold to. But there is nothing 'good' about telling children to murder real life people. To point a child with a weapon at a specific person, be they Jew, negro, homosexual, female, or as in this paricular case, a hated individual, is evil.

There is no excuse for this, not in our morality, and not in any other. Quibbles about the difference between killinga nd murder, or what is morality doesn't change that simple fact. Telling little children its okay to murder GW Bush is evil.

I realize that you probably refuse to accept scientific studies of deaths in Iraq like the John Hopkins study published in the Lancet but just to correct your denial of responsibility consider these conclusion from the study updated to October 2006. (See JH Study Summary).





So even if we take the 2006 diminished rate and apply it to the total, the coalition is directly responsible for 170,291 deaths up to July 2006. In reality, the US administration and its facilitators are responsible for all the deaths (which probably exceed 1,000,000 by now) and the other mayhem because the fracturing of Iraqi society was a predictable consequence of the illegal invasion.

On some Arabic-language debate board, or perhaps in a parallel universe, there is a debate thread that started in 1999 and is still going on about a scene in an American film, with mass child/teen appeal.

The scene shows a prominent Arab leader being electrocuted by an American child, despite repeated verbal apologies and appeals for mercy from the Arab leader, until such time that the prominent Arab leader falls from a great height before being impaled on jagged rocks far below.

The debate questions, and the main thrust of their answers that follow:

At which point I will stop my attempts to be cryptic and say that the film this parallel universe debate thread is talking about is South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut, the prominent Arab leader is (or rather was) Saddam Hussein, and the nationality is Iraqi. (edited to remove bandwidth-munching animated gif)

So, before I answer the debate questions, I wonder if there might not be some context we're missing here. Maybe this is not the Hamas equivalent of Sesame Street, and it's in fact more like their version of South Park? I think it probably is fairly po-faced propaganda, but it never hurts to question our own assumptions before voicing an opinion.

1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?
2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

Hard to say in isolation. It's certainly propaganda though. I'd say most Palestinians, and Arabs in general, are not positive towards Pres. Bush or towards America (I'd say they were more hostile to Bush than to wider America as a whole, though this is not true throughout the Arab or Muslim worlds), so it's more reinforcing existing prejudices than instilling new ones, which happens in every culture.

Or why have the bad guys in 24 or many other US TV and film dramas been identifiably Arab or Muslim for more than a decade now. This is not a direct result of 9-11, but has been happening more or less since the fall of communism*. It's as if Hollywood (and, maybe, wider America) needs to think there's a definite bad guy and that, once the Russians ditched communism, everyone decided that Muslims would do just as well.

Did this colour American attitudes to the Muslim world prior to 9-11? Almost certainly. Was it the driving factor, then or since? Er, no.

*In True Lies (1995) and Executive Decision (1996) the bad guys are both Middle Eastern terrorists.

However, in Rambo III (1988) the bad guys were Russians and the helpful supportive cast, without whom Rambo would (almost) not have won out were... er, the Afghan Taliban that the US and her allies are now fighting.

3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine?

Neither - I'd say this was more done for dramatic simplicity than to illustrate any wider point. Bad guys are much easier to handle if they are always bad and they stay that way. Good guys are much easier to identify with if they are not ambiguous and never do bad things. This is the stuff of all story-telling, and such stories are not limited to children's TV programming. It's human nature - and it appears in national and cultural story-telling as well. It's why America - and most other powerful countries throughout history - needs for there to be an outside bad guy (because it's easier to think of oneself a good guy that way.) It's why all countries that are at war have some degree of propaganda in support of the war and demonising the enemy going on.

This doesn't matter so much for the less powerful, because as well as being less able to do good, you're less able to do bad things, so you don't need a national mythology to justify why you did them to make you feel better about it (and yourselves).

Humans, while undeniably violent, are not temperamentally suited to unjustified violence. All propaganda against all enemies is about making people feel justified in their violence.

At a micro level, murderers hardly ever kill people just because they wanted to (and if they do that we give them labels like "sociopath" and maybe think them more suited to psychiatric supervision than punishment). More usually, they do it for revenge, by accident, for money; they give themselves, and the rest of us, justifications for why they did something they know to be unacceptable.

And at a macro level, even very warlike peoples don't go to war without some pre-match jingoism, some cheerleading after the kick-off, and drink-fuelled arguments and/or celebrations afterwards that can last for decades or even centuries.

Nobody sane really likes killing without a "reason". The sad thing is that there are very few truly rational justifications for killing anyone, ever. (One obvious one would be in "hot" (i.e. immediate) self-defence.) We can usually get everything we want by stopping short of that.

Well, you and I differ here, too. I do not subscribe to cultural relativism. On many points, there is only one definintion of "good guy" and I have a standard on which I rely and on which all others may rely. It is not subject to caprice or whim. In other areas, this source leaves us in a grey area, of course, but many comparsions are quite easy to make.

Without arguing religion, though, how would you compare a country which honors due process of law and states so in its Constitution, which avoids cruel and unusual punishment and continually refines its viewpoint on this issue, and which bends over backwards to objectify and honor the fundamental rights of its citizens, versus a nation who kills its own people with hardly a second thought and by dictatorial fiat, like Communist China has done ever since Mao came into power, or versus a nation as brutal and cruel as Japan in the World War II-era (Read Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China for source material)?

Even in the case of the pre-Civil Rights Era South, individuals who managed to avoid arrest from bombing black churches and the like are still being pursued and tried for murder today. How many other nations would pursue such criminal charges from 50 or 60 years ago? I surely doubt Iran or China would....

I know how I would come out. It's really not that difficult.

Of course. Especially the part where we hear that Bush cannot live in the White House because it is now a big Mosque and he is “unclean” – this apparently after all of “us” non Muslims are dead. Sick.


Of course because they are teaching it to children who cannot possibly know better.



Twisted religious doctrine imo. It implies that the “infidels” cannot be redeemed and must be murdered – even if they “repent”.

This trash is as sick as it gets and should remind us that when they attack us here there will be no mercy or remorse on their part – about murdering men, women and children.

1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?
You gotta admit, that video clip was kind of funny!

2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?
I don't think that young kids are going to go out and blow themselves up because some puppet on TV hates George Bush.
But Bush's policies in the Middle East make look detestable in the eyes of many Arabs.

3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine?
I would say both revenge and doctrine. If you look at the crimes that Arabs have accused Bush of, like invading another country without
provocation, you can make a case that Bush is guilty of murder.

Moif, I agree that Islam in general is a violent religion. But if America is going to go head on with radical Islam, it is going to need to do more
than barge in to the Middle East with its military. If American Christians want to discredit Islam, they need more than a leader who professes
Christian values. They need leaders who have the patience and the intelligence to sit down and actually read the Arabic part of the Quran.
Is it a lot to ask from a leader? Yes it is. But in times like these, we need smart people in Government. Having someone like Ann Coulter or
Bill O'Reilly go on TV and call Islam all sorts of names is neither going to win friends in the Middle East or change Muslims' hearts.

Hi Skeeterses

Well in my opinion nothinng you will ever do is going to win you friends in a Middle East dominated by Islam.

The fact is, Muslims were attacking Americans long before America had a presence in the Middle East. In March, 1812, when Europe was engaged in what is officially known as 'the Napoleonic wars', an American brig, the Edwin sailed for Spain carrying supplies for the British army garrisoned there. This was a risky venture since the American president at the time, Madison, had imposed an embargo and war between America and Great Britain was looming on the horizon. The American crew understood there was an element of risk involved in their venture. What they hadn't counted on was being taken captive by an Algerian frigate off the coast of Spain, hauled back to Algiers and enslaved in the time honoured tradition of North African Muslims, which is exactly what happened to them.

Eventually, after diplomacy and meeting randsom demands failed the United States was forced to declare war upon the North African pirate states, arm and equip a flotilla of warships to go to there and deal with the so called Barbary Pirates. This they did by bombarding the Muslim strongholds until they surrendered and all the American slaves had been freed.

All ancient history now you might suppose, but the fact is, the Barbary pirates were acting in accordance with the Quran. What to us might seem nothing more than an example of wicked capitalism was to them, jihad. The very same jihad which put two airliners into the World Trade Centre.

Jihad does not just mean 'holy war' as so many people assume. Nor does it just mean an inner struggle of faith as so many people have tried to claim since 9/11. Jihad means doing the will of Allah. Acting in accordance with Allah's divine wishes by becoming the instrument of Allah. To that end, anything that promotes Islam can be considered jihad whether its working in a social centre or cutting off heads for internet consumption. Its a screwed up mental loop hole typical of the religious mind. Never mind reality, this is Gods work!

What this means for you and me today is the same as it meant for the Europeans who had to halt the Muslim invasion of France from Andulsia (now Spain). It means nothing we ever do will change how Islam regards us. We are, and always will be, kuffar. Non believers who'se only recourse to survive as free people, is to be stronger than the Muslims. The moment the balance tips in favour of Islam, you are on a downward slope towards annhilation.

If you don't believe me, consider these percentages and take a good hard look at the state of those countries

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%
Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2. 7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%
France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%
Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%
Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%
Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%
Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

You might notice that generally the more Muslims a country has, the less human rights it has. Specifically there are a few countries, like Turkey for instance which appear to defy this generalization, until you consider that after the Second World War, Turkeys Muslim population was only 80%, and the remaining Greeks and Christianswere all suffered to flee in silence lest they upset the Cold War balance of power so that today, with its secular form of government under threat from extremist Islamic parties Turkey is reverting to its old Ottoman form.

The Ottoman Turks are a good example of what we can expect in the near future. Did you know that the Ottoman's enslaved entire country's of Europeans in keeping with Islamic law. Ever wonder where the word 'slavery' actually comes from? It comes from the word Slav, because the Slavs were enslaved by the Ottoman Turks who would take male children to be Jannissaries (elite slave troops) and their female children to be sex toys.

Perhaps you think I am being overly dramatic, and this couldn't possibly happen in the 21st century. Perhaps you think that its unfair to single out Muslims because every one kept slaves in the bad old days. You'd be right, it probably couldn't happen in the 21st century, except that Islam doesn't exist in the 21st century, and whilst every one else has long given up slavery, Islam continues to promote it (espcially in Africa) since Islam remains, the teachings of a desert slaver, stuck in a 7th century mind set. And yes, amongst other things, Mohammed was a slave trader.

Recently Pope Benedikt XVI converted a prominent Muslim journalist to Catholicism. Here is a Magdi Allam’s account, explaining his decision to convert. If you read it, you will discover that it echoes other such statements made by ex Muslims regarding their former religion, for example Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Essentially these ex Muslims, freed from the constrictions of their former 'faith' by western intellectual freedom, are extraordinarily critical of Islam and have the clarity of vision to state their case.

That this brings them countless death threats from Muslims is especially ironic given the indifference with which their warnings are heeded. No one wants to know. The west is terrified of any confrontation which will reveal the ugly truth behind our open tolerant societies, that the majority of Muslims do not care about our countries, or our laws, or our cultures or our ethics. They are only here because we have money and they want it.

You'll note that America has no friends in the Middle East. Only dubious allies of convenience, and Israel. Putting military units into Iraq has been described as polarizing, aggressive and counter productive, but the fact remains that Osama Bin Laden and his goons attacked the USA because the US Military was peacefully camped in Saudi Arabia (at the behest of the Saudi government).

Hizb'Allah carried out the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing for no other reason than because the American and French were kuffar troops sent to establish peace at the behest of the Lebanese government.

No one knows why Libya blew up Pan Am flight 103 over the Scottish town of Lockerbie, but the fact remains the Libyans have accepted responsibility and are paying compensation. The fact also remains that flight 103 was seen to be destroyed because American military assets were operating in the Gulf of Sidra, which Libya claims as its territorial waters, despite these being international waters.

The point being, that no matter what you Americans do in the Middle East, you will be held to account by Muslims. Whether or not you choose to withdraw from the Middle east and face the natural consequences of that decision remains your nations decision, but for as long as you remain a military presence there, even if you obey international laws, or are there at the request of the local legitimate governments, then you will have no real friends amongst the Muslims and you will continue to be attacked because Islamic teaching makes clear that any land once owned by Muslims, forever there after belongs to the Islammic Ummah.

Skeeterses said:

What?

Looks like they have a whole series on a network called Tomorrow's Pioneers. There's the link. Check it out.

And CLICK HERE for a neato synapsis of the lessons kids are learning on their public television.

Ooh, here's a good one.

QUOTE

Episode: 108, "Nahoul's Rant" July 20, 2007
Nahoul lectures to the audience that "we will liberate Al-Aqsa from the filth of the criminal Jews." Sabah, a call-in guest, shares aspirations to become a journalist to which Nahoul asks "to photograph the Jews when they are killing Farfour [a network character] and the little children?" Later, Izz Al-Din from Ramallah calls in and Nahoul suggests that "we will go on Jihad when we grow up."

Glad you found it "kind of funny". I must have missed the funny parts between all the hate, racism and anti-semitism.

On top of it, they mix religious superiority on top of victimization, and then blame "the enemy" of their choosing at any given time. The enemy being "anyone who is not us". That's a great recipe for raising a nation of hating bigots who would pop off and start a holy war against a lifelong enemy, "the infidel", don't you think?

Skeeterses said:

Well certainly not this 12 year old. Or these kids. Or even these. They're not exactly playing a Nintendo Wii to occupy their time.

It's not just the television, it's the entire culture. Hating western civilization, non-Islamic groups is an accepted culture. Kids shows simply reinforces the concept. Instead of learning ABCD, they learn AK47. That's nuts.


Being in South Korea, might I remind you of the United State's actions on behalf of the Korean Conflict? I'm not seeing where we were welcome there initially either.

I don't remember us being guilty of murder when U.S. forces helped recover Seoul and pushed back the North Koreans and the Soviets. 36.516 Americans died for that. Were we murderers then too, or did the game change because now it's G.W. Bush and it's popular to hate him?

I don't see South Korea begging to undo "the mess" we did there. Kim Jong-il.... He's a nice guy, right?

Moif said:

Okay, let's put that into perspective.

According to your stats, the U.S. has 1% Muslims. Denmark has 2% Muslims.

What happens when Muslims claim Denmark as the next part of converting the world to Allah?

Should we challenge the Islamic Ummah to help? Or should we just mind our own business, send flowers and well wishes, and hope for the best?

Or better yet, wait for the U.N. to enforce their resolutions. [breathe deeply.... pause....] Cause you know how effective the U.N. is when it comes to international affairs and human rights. You have a better chance of being a Christian in China than you have of getting the U.N. to help a nation under attack.

Your 98% is easier to conquer than our 99%. And your 2% is already claimed. Taking that to the full logical conclusion... Moif... then what?

AZWhite, you're trying to change the topic here. What does Korea have to do with George Bush? Overwhelmingly, Arabs disapprove of Bush's decision to invade Iraq and that is why they accuse him of murder.

Has it occured to you that Muslims probably hate us because of our actions and not because of our "freedoms?" Did I miss the part where Osama Bin Laden was in a cave and stumbled across a copy of the Declaration of Independence and decided to go after America because he doesn't like our freedom? I'm not trying to give Islam a free pass now. I'm just saying that we should try non-violent ways to settle our differences with them before trying to do a military occupation on one of their countries. The very fact that a prominent Muslim had the courage to do a public conversion to Christianity on TV illustrates that Muslims can be reasoned with.

Moif, you said that the no matter what America does in the Middle East, Muslims will hate us. You hit it right on the nail! They don't want Western troops in the Middle East, period. And I think that's a quite reasonable demand.

I'm not sure what yor asking me. Could you clarify?


It would be a reasonable demand were it made from a reasonable perspective.

The fact is, they don't want US troops, or any non Muslims in the Middle East because these will bring instability or oppression. Rather they want 'you' and your Israeli friends out, because your not Muslims. Thats not reasonable. Thats pure xenophobia.

American troops bring with them the best prospect of prosperity any non western nation could have and Israel is the most viable economic country in the Middle East. Any sane person would work around the differences and aspire to stability and growth.

The Middle East, and the entire 'Muslim world', is characterized by oppression, intolerance and ethnic cleansing, and any region or nation within the sphere of Muslim influence which is seen by Muslims as being 'non Muslim' is subjected to ethnic cleansing, war and instability. For example, Lebanon where non Muslim leaders are routinely assassinated, where the Muslim groups keep the country destabilized and where Israel is used as an excuse to maintain large private Muslim armies, such as Hizb'Allah.

Consider also Turkey, which many European multiculturalists want to join the EU. Turkey engaged in a campaign of ethnic/religious cleansing for decades, resulting in a nation which today is called 'secular', but which has a population of 99% Muslims. Thats a greater proportion of Muslims than at any other time in the history of the Anatolian peninsula. Not even when Turkey was ruling the Muslim world as the seat of power for the great caliphate did it have such an overwhelming Muslim population. The Greek orthodox minority, remnant of old Byzantium, which was significant in 1908 has been utterly eradicated over the course of the last century, and no one bats an eye lid.

Mean while, Muslims are screaming blue murder about the existence of Israel. Why? Whats the difference between the Palestinians and the orthodox greeks? (or the rapidly disapearing Copts of Egypt?). The difference is, as we see in Darfur, Muslims are ALLOWED to ethnically cleanse their neighbours and to challenge this diabolical behaviour is to be labelled Islamophobic. The UN human rights council is dominated by Muslim countries. Do they challenge the mass murder taking place in Darfur? No. They spend ALL their time whininig about Israel, because the criminal murderers in Darfur are Muslims and the Israeli's are not.

In Kosovoa, Serbs have been harvested for their organs. Take a second and think about what that means. Reports indicate that around 2,000 Serbs living in Kosovo were taken to Albania, by Muslim Kosovans and cut open, for their organs. Has this news reached the world? Has the UN acted? Has NATO said anything? Nothing was said. Despite decades of ethnic cleansing, the Albanians have been rewarded for their efforts and Kosovo is now a US/UN/NATO protected Muslim state whose leadership has not been brought to account by any one, not even the courts in the Hague, since all the witnesses have been murdered or forced into silence.

The Muslims hate us because we are not Muslims. It may be difficult to get your head around that fact, but to be a Muslim is to follow the teachings of the Quran, and the Quran makes clear what Muslims must think about kuffar. Islam is not open to intrepetation. The Quran cannot be regarded as mere guide lines It is the word of Allah as put into law by Mohammed. It must be obeyed, to the letter. You might think of the USA as your land, and the Middle east as theirs, but thats not how the Muslims think of it. The Quran makes clear that all Earth belongs to the Muslims and any land which has been owned by Muslim and lost, must be retaken. This is the real reason why israel is so contested, and also the reason why Spain is so eagerly sought after by Muslims. The Muslims in your country may seem like a tiny minority now, but three decades ago, no one was even aware of Muslims in Europe and today they dominate the news. Forecasts predict Europe will be majority Muslim within the next five decades because the European nations are in decline. Europeans do not have enough children to maintain the nation states and their existing economies. Fear of an economic downturn leads politicians to import immigrants to maintain the work force. Thus, fear of poverty has led Europe to import some 50 million Muslims. What you have today will bite you in the near future just as is happening here.

Any moderate Muslim you might encounter, is merely a decent person who doesn't take their religion very seriously, but these moderates have never been able to change their religion, and when push comes to shove, they do not stand up for the kuffar. Wisely, they remain silent lest they be murdered.

Pulling your troops out of the Middle East is not going to make any difference to how the USA is seen by Muslims. Unless the world stands up to this horrible supremist ideology, then the Muslims will succeed where the communists and nazi's failed. It is already happening. It has been happening for 1,400 years. There is no comparable example in history. Islam is the most dangerous political movement humanity has ever seen.

Skeeterses

Nope never thought of it. Shhh! [head plops back in sand]

I wish it was merely that simplistic. The common argument is that "we're on their land". If the U.N. was on their land representing ALL of the nations, they'd still be against it on a religious principle. We're defiling holy land, and holding up the anti-progress of a fully converted Muslim nation and their backward, 3rd World traditions.

I make the argument that we have freedoms here that conflict with their religion. The fact that we're infidels is enough justification to convert or kill when a leader finally blows the whistle.

The U.S. fights a far different "political" war, that is much different and have different ramifications to those passionate about fighting a "holy" war.

You can blame their anger on G.W. Bush - which is common. You can blame their anger on long term occupation, which happened LONG before this war, LONG before G.W. Bush, but very few actually address that point. So all of a sudden, several generations of "Blame America" happens.

I say EFF that. The problem is THEIR lack of tolerance in being part of the 21st Century. As any political-religious nation, I'm sure it boggles their mind that why, when they have Allah and are adherent to him, that America has clean water, a properly working sewer system, stable electricity and a decent economy while they still live in poverty.

Hell, add THAT to the list of reasons to hate America. But shoot, the blame doesn't always fall on us. But we're constantly taken to task for it. Thanks for the example of it.

(I cited S. Korea because that's your location, and because America has fought there, too. Get it now?)

In the meantime, America is chided for "Remembering 9-11", but look in the news this week. Ahh, more adherants to Islam trying to kill more innocent people.

I'm going to second "a little funny."

With some decent editing that would have made a hilarious Daily Show bit. The sound at the end.... priceless...

In context however it is indeed indication of a trouble aspect of the situation most of us were already aware of.

More proof that who's speaking matters, remember that next ime we have a "Why can't white people say...." debate ...

There little more reprehensible than twisting children's minds, and although militarism has made its mark on American children as well. We can all I think agree it's nothing like this.

This I think falls outside he limits of free-speech. Programs like this should be included in things to end under peace negotiations.

Along with illegal settlements of course.

Hmm, is this more or less funny than when Reagan joked about launching nukes at Russia in the 80s- killing literally hundreds of millions of people- very funny, right?

The quality of humour is irrellevent. Reagans joke was a mistake never intended for public consumption, and certainly not aimed at indoctrinating children into murdering people.

Okay- you do realize we are talking about the President of the US and a puppet show, correct? I am thinking that the oh, prez has a slightly different level of responsibility, on or off air, and, he being an actor- knows to keep his trap shut while on set, in case someone forgot to turn off the film, right?

the difference is that a palestenian is very unlikely to be able to harm the president- and Reagan had the ability to do exactly what he was 'joking" about.

Yes, I am aware of the distinction. Are you aware that Reagan was joking, and these Palestinians are not joking?

Hmm, a few thought it was a bit funny- the pupet show that is- but you didn't think the puppet show was joking? Guess what- there were alot of folks in the world then that didn't buy the "joke" angle all that well either, when Reagan "joked" about killing a chunk of the world- especially since it did match his rhetoric and actions at the time.

So what? As I already pointed out. Reagans joke was a gaff. It was never intended to be for the public and was never presented as being anything but a gaff.

This thread is not about Ronald Reagan CR. Its not about jokes either. Unless your going to prove to us that Muslims in general, and Palestinians in particular don't regularly broadcast Goebbels-style hate mongering of Jews (not just Israeli's) then I don't know what point your trying to make.

There is no argument that justifys hate mongering because some old American president once told a joke in poor taste. What sort of weird argument is that?

Okay- fair enough- here goes- I don't like religion- any religion. Call it "religious bigotry" if you want- I like the word "anti-religious bigtory" because I have no religion. I have no problem looking down at ANY belief that condemns me to an eternity of torture and anguish, and I think that "being sensitive" to someone that condemns me, well, is a bit unfair, don't ya think? Christians, Muslims etc say "why can't you just respect our religion and beliefs" well- because your religion doesn't respect me, or my beliefs, why should I respect yours?

I don't condemn and damn Christians to an eternity of torture- why should I respect it when thier religion condemns me?

ANY religion that says "you better believe in our doctrine, or you are condemned to an eternity of hell"- is bad, period. Why? Because it is wrong to condemn others to torture simply because they don't believe in the same thing- and it is even worse when thy get all obmoxioius about it, and all red faced, because you make fun of a religion that isn't very nice, even in words, to non-believers.

Christianity, however, has grown up, at least in western culture, to some degree, and at least, well, we aren't killing thousand of jews by burning them at the stake as part of "entertainment" anymore- that is a plus.

but still, If I don't believe, they say that bad things will happen to me- and get mad when I either 1) make fun of thier religion or 2) disrespect thier religion for disrespecting me.

Though western religion at least has moved away a bit from actually killing the non-believers, they still insist on making others obey thier tenets through passing laws based on thier religions morality code- even when it means persecuting minorities- such as gays, and denying them the same rights, simply based on thier "book".

so why do people go to religion- I am sure it is a variety of issues- but have you ever noticed, the more poor and oppressed a people are, the more they turn to religion?

A fact, correct?

So, they use religion as an outlet to try to deal with the fact thier life sucks, and they can do nothing about it, and become more and more radicalized.

Palestenians have lost a lot due to Israel, and are displaced by them. The US foriegn policy has been pretty hateful and downright evil on occasion in the middle east (the installation of the Shah of Iran is a good example).

They have a reason to be angry. It would be nice if they blamed thier own leaders for thier problems, and elected better ones- but, once again, the US voting population has not been much better- we did, after all, elect GW TWICE.

How many Americans have Iraqis and Palestenians killed in reality? Too many, obviously- but how many innocent Iraqis and Palestenians has the US killed, and then made excuses such as 'it was regretable, but that was collateral damage"-

That kind of arrogance breeds hatred. That kind of hypocrisy breeds hatred.

Religion allows hate- all religions that condemn non-believers to some sort of unhappy ending in eternity enables hatred.

Quite frankly Moif- you come from a fairly nice, polite, non-violent athiestic society. This is the first time, in some time, that your country has had to deal with a rabid orthodox religion like Islam.

The "hate" palestenians have had for America is not centuries old- it starts around 1917-1948, when the US and Britain decided to start up a country that hadn't existed for 2000 years, and ethnically cleansed the land for Israelites.

I have sat in many a sermon, and "puppet show" that is as bloodthirsty and hateful, wrapped up in the trappings of religion and "God's love" right here in the US- Jerry Falwell, Bob Jones, the Southern baptists ( the largest protestant domination in the US, having more people in it than all of Israel) and on and on- have incredibly hateful and violent sermons advocating starting armegeddon. In fact, a large part of US policy was formed for that political group, and evangelical orthodox Christians have driven and did drive the creation of the state of Israel.

Is it brainwashing? Isnt' all religion a form of "brainwashing". How about the illogical nationalistic chest thumping we have here in the US, where anything bad said about our nation when it does behave badly as "anti-American".

So, to answer the questions:


1. Some might stress that the strategy here for the Hamas viewers is brainwashing. Is that true?

Sure- no diifferent than any other religion that emphasizes eternal punishment for non-believers.

2. If so, is it working? If not, what effect does this have on the young viewers?

I am sure it is- after all, it is no different than the indoctrination ( by it's very use- putting doctrine in the mind of the indoctrinatee) - but what effect? I don't think fat and happy religious people really have the same devotion to the religion, as in orthodox devotees, willing to give thier lives for the religion- as a "can I make it day to day" person simply surviving.

So, there is an enormous underpinning of desperation that needs to be present before the indoctrination can "take".

Consider this statement:

Christianity:

The belief that some cosmic jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove the evil force from your soul, that is present in Humanity because some rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Makes perfect sense, right?

Put that way- how could anyone believe in Christianity at all- well, because we started brainwashing our children at a young age, indoctrinating them to this story, and use this to control behavior.

What they are doing is no different than any "punishment/reward" based religion, where there are specific punishments for non-believers.

3. The puppet that played President Bush "repented". Yet the boy killed him anyway. Personal revenge? Or religious doctrine?

Who knows thier reasons- this is also not untypical of any religious faith, where, after repenting, they are killed, but they get to go up to the "reward" - so the death is not so bad, it is not as bad as if they had lived, not repented and been "condemned for all eternity".

Remeber, in religion, the soul is WAY more important "than the flesh".

Stuff "of the world" doesn't matter- what happens after you die is paramount. So, in effect, they may have felt they were "rewarding him" by allowing him to "return to the lord" and recieving a happy eternity of virgins.

To stay and suffer would have been much worse, in just about any of the Christian/Muslim faiths.

I am sorry Moif- I can't get nearly as worked up about a religious puppet show, because I have become "desensitized" to the same thing from Christian upbringing.

You call that being desensitized??? You just wrote 1,173 words on Christianity when Christianity has nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand.

CR you need to divorce your own hang ups from