This is a great topic. Thanks Turnea. I wish I had more time to debate these days.

Ok- Kim;
1. Why is the comment asinine about the playing field largely being equalized btw '70 and '90?
- NT beats up on NET for not debating with facts, but here you just disagree with the idea, so it's absurd? Well, I say the facts disagree.

http://www.eeoc.gov/stats/race.html
These statistics tell a tale that most 'the man is holding me down' propegators resist. The facts are that, even in a gov't run EEOC, roughly 2/3 of all Racial Discrimination claims were without merit.

I don't believe that most intelligent people in America believe Racism is completely gone, but the question still remains. How badly does it actually affect minorities? Why don't Asians have the same fate?

2. Why, if Hispanic people are basically just as poverty stricken (see links), do they have less people as a percentage in prison?
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html


I think that, for me, these two arguments sum up to something people don't like to talk about. Frankly, society perpetuates inequality by telling Black Americans, particularly Black men that they cannot rise out of poverty.

Martin Luther King, while a flawed man, I believe said something completely different. I think that momentum in America was stopped by a bullet and whoever conspired to kill Dr. King. I think that Dr. King's message was simple. It was that Black America is just as good. That they can do it.

Is that what our politicians say? Is that what affirmative action says? Is that what pop culture says? I don't think so. Not in my opinion, and not according to the trends. Now, it's more acceptable than ever for a Black Man to have done time. It's more acceptable than ever for a woman to have children out of wedlock (all races). It's perfectly fine to have baby-mama's and daddy's, which of course is the NUMBER ONE indicator of poverty (single parent homes... ).

I didn't know Dr. King. NONE of us did. However, I have read a number of books about him, and watched as much as I can. Sure, the dude slept around, but he seemed to genuinely love his family. He seemed to perpetuate core values in American society. I believe that, this thread being about Dr. King, he wouldn't approve of the way things are going.

What would help to turn the tide in Black America? In my opinion... it sounds simple, but of course it isn't.
1. Bring families back together. Two incomes, accountability, a loving home with two parents for kids, etc are always beneficial (regardless of race).
2. Get race out of politics. Cases like Sean Bell prove something to me. Basically- that race baiting politicians and snake oil salesmen that gain something from pulling American society apart.
3. Prioritize education in poverty stricken communities
4. Incent business ventures in poverty stricken areas with tax breaks. This will bring NEW business to areas that may otherwise be overlooked.



HUH?
Seriously. You beat up on people for not supporting their debate, but use the word FACT as if because you said it... it's fact.

If racism against Blacks in America is the single most important factor in determining the rate of poverty... how do you equate the FACT that actually poverty is most likely indicated by a single parent home? OH- and that more single parent homes are black than any other race?
http://www.iwpr.org/pdf/d451.pdf
http://www.heritage.org/research/Family/CDA02-04.cfm

http://www.kidscount.org/datacenter/compar...sults.jsp?i=722

I mean seriously Turnea... let's not be hypocritical. Is racism the cause of single parent homes?

This is a great topic. Thanks Turnea. I wish I had more time to debate these days.

Ok- Kim;
1. Why is the comment asinine about the playing field largely being equalized btw '70 and '90?
- NT beats up on NET for not debating with facts, but here you just disagree with the idea, so it's absurd? Well, I say the facts disagree.
http://www.eeoc.gov/stats/race.html
These statistics tell a tale that most 'the man is holding me down' propegators resist. The facts are that, even in a gov't run EEOC, roughly 2/3 of all Racial Discrimination claims were without merit.

I don't believe that most intelligent people in America believe Racism is completely gone, but the question still remains. How badly does it actually affect minorities? Why don't Asians have the same fate?

2. Why, if Hispanic people are basically just as poverty stricken (see links), do they have less people as a percentage in prison?
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html

I think that, for me, these two arguments sum up to something people don't like to talk about. Frankly, society perpetuates inequality by telling Black Americans, particularly Black men that they cannot rise out of poverty.

Martin Luther King, while a flawed man, I believe said something completely different. I think that momentum in America was stopped by a bullet and whoever conspired to kill Dr. King. I think that Dr. King's message was simple. It was that Black America is just as good. That they can do it.

If racism against Blacks in America is the single most important factor in determining the rate of poverty... how do you equate the FACT that actually poverty is most likely indicated by a single parent home? OH- and that more single parent homes are black than any other race?
http://www.iwpr.org/pdf/d451.pdf
http://www.heritage.org/research/Family/CDA02-04.cfm

http://www.kidscount.org/datacenter/compar...sults.jsp?i=722

I mean seriously Turnea... let's not be hypocritical. Is racism the cause of single parent homes?

I don't believe that most intelligent people in America believe Racism is completely gone, but the question still remains. How badly does it actually affect minorities? Why don't Asians have the same fate?

This is a common myth, the Asian as a "model" minority.

There's more to it than that. Asians must often deal with stereotypes, just like other minorities. People will speak gibberish to Asians, thinking its "funny" to try and "speak" with them. Asians are often considered to speak English poorly. I've had people make fun of my mother's accent, telling me that they don't understand what she's saying. I've seen co-workers speak slowly and loudly to Chinese customers. I've had people try to relate with me about my "asianness" by speaking to me about a country that is no where near where my family is from. The list goes on. To say that Asians are unaffected by racism shows such a lack of understanding about the Asian American experience that it is astounding.

The interesting point wasn't whether or not Asians suffered from discrimination, but, if racism is the prime cause of economic stagnation for minorities, why do they not suffer equally?

The fact that different races achieve different levels of success lends credence to the view that modern day racism is not central to any minorities economic plight. Historical factors, race preferences, or other things that elude me currently must be brought into the mix.

although the Japanese often earn a similar income to Americans, other Asians earn considerably less.

Your concession that Japanese Americans make about as much as most (white) Americans exemplifies this point. That is, if there is REALLY wage discrimination against Asians, why are the Japanese able to escape?

Please come to San Francisco.

But seriously, do we not all face spot judgments and stereotypes in our lives? I've been told: "you must be majoring in physics" and been called spoiled/preppy even before I've gotten a word in edge-wise. When working at longs (we all have had terrible summer jobs), I've been called a yuppie and, in a more extreme event, racist.

You might call these experiences superficial and insignificant, but, then again, so are the examples in your quote.

And I really appreciate you calling my personal experiences insignificant.

Because there are different perceptions of different minorities. As already noted, Asians are seen as fairly successful, especially compared to their Hispanic and African brethren, but I've noted that this is not always the case. The fact that people often point to Asians as the "model" minority obscures the very real issues and hardships that Asians face in the United States.

I don't believe that most intelligent people in America believe Racism is completely gone, but the question still remains. How badly does it actually affect minorities? Why don't Asians have the same fate?

Uh...historical factors and race preferences help make up what modern racism is today.

However, simply because the Japanese earn the same amount as whites in the United States does not mean that they are not held back in other ways. The problem with focusing on solely economic factors ignores other issues. I haven't done much research on this, so I can't say with any certainty what these other issues are. I've read that Asians are more likely to be passed up for promotions due to their "meek" natures, and they are also less likely to complain to higher ups of unfair treatment.

my guess is that your identity isn't formed through your race.

When it does happen, they act with indignation, but rarely relate the experience back to others.

These perceptions matter, because they influence our behavior in ways that many people do not understand, or prefer to deny exist

Unless they blame affirmative action (which many do), whites often do not think that they have been held back due to their race

A Chinese-American student says he was rejected by Princeton University because he is Asian.

Alleged discrimination against Jian Li, now a freshman at Yale University, has sparked a probe by the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights. Princeton is accused of rejecting Li because its admissions policies favor Blacks, Hispanics, athletes and the children of alumni.

I'm not great at internet emotion, but let me emphasize I'm not trying to get personal with you.

This is combining stereotypes and racism in a way I'm not completely comfortable with. For the sake of argument, however, remember the original question:

How badly does it, the successful image, hurt Asian Americans?

I suppose it depends on what it obscures. What does it obscure?

No, you missed my point. I believe in this thread, or another, we've made a very clean distinction between racism today and the effects of past racism, which I believe we've come to call the legacy of racism. Perhaps the word discrimination might be better suited here, so to requote myself:

"The fact that different races achieve different levels of success lends credence to the view that modern day discrimination is not central to any minorities economic plight."

Other factors, like the legacy of racism, or racial preferences, like whites finding Hispanics less intimidating, Asians more successful, must be brought into the mix.

Your abandoning your argument about unequal pay so quickly. Are we in agreement that Asian-racism is not a factor in pay?

No, but it could be. Self-identity seems to be largely a personal choice.

This is making hasty generalizations.

On a more general point that does not specifically pertain to race, don't you understand why this might be given your reasoning?

You say: It is difficult for whites to understand exactly what it feels like to be constantly judged against a stereotype.
and furthermore: Although you cannot see the link between some of my examples and any overt economic hardships

But then you get upset when people deny hardships. This kind of 'trust me, you can't see it, but its there' attitude is bound to irritate people, especially on a debate forum.

Many asians too:

Turning Up the Heat on Affirmative Action Policies

Uh, I've abandoned nothing. Youve clearly misunderstood my argument. Again, the fact that the Japanese are largely equal in regards to salary does not mean that they don't experience other forms of social, economic or cultural barriers

ones you conveniently ignore by only focusing on the ones that are "successful."

racist attitudes towards Asians (as this thread has quickly demonstrated)

A number of things, it downplays any racist attitudes towards Asians (as this thread has quickly demonstrated), for one. Second, it ignores the social barriers that Asians may face. And third, it actually obscures the economic issues that surrounds Asians, ones you conveniently ignore by only focusing on the ones that are "successful."

I find it difficult to believe that one can argue that discrimination exists, but that it has no real affect on people's lives.

I am not sure what the point of this is. You don't see these things as making up modern racism, but I contend that they are to a large degree what makes up modern racism. And thats the point. Racism is no longer as overt (in some cases) as it was in the past.

I disagree. My identity was made for me from the constant reminder that I am indeed not white. If self identity is a choice (and I can see that for some, they have that luxury), then discussions of racism would be different; however, as most minorities do not often have a choice in how others identify them, it becomes more important to examine how race plays into social interactions.

I can see that it does indeed irritate people. But I am not trying to irritate people; perhaps if people were more willing to look past their privileges, and try to understand what it means to be not white in the United States, then they would begin to better understand experiences of minorities. Its difficult to full demonstrate the power of racism, because my experiences (as well as others) are often discounted, because they do not seem like a big deal to the majority. We are often seen as nitpicking or "too focused on race" or any number of more hurtful terms. And again, by questioning race issues, many often see it as a personal accusation, or at the least some sort of undermining of their current world view and values. It may be, but it is of course, nothing personal.

One Asian feels that AA has not been beneficial to him and now you claim that all Asians feel that way?

Ugh. The fact that Japanese make as much as whites lends credibility to the belief that Asians don't suffer wage discrimination. If Asians do suffer wage discrimination, then we would expect to see all Asians make stunted pay.

Thus, if Asian wage discrimination is correct, there must be an explanation for why Japanese are not discriminated against and other Asians are.

I understand your other argument, that Japanese may (or do) face discrimination in other ways. Fine! But that doesn't address the issue at hand.

Is that a subtle prod that I might be racist against Asians, or Asianist?

What are the the social barriers that Asians face that prevent success?

This really gets into your last point, because I'm not a minority and can't understand.

You see, this is where all reasonable discussion breaks down. Your lack of evidence is not proof of our prejudice. Your the one that needs to verify your claims with unbiased evidence.

The issue at hand was that Asians were "successful" compared to other minorities. I've given data that says otherwise. You don't believe it. I am not sure where else to go from here. You can continue to focus on this one anamoly to try and prove your point, but there are successful black people too, does that mean that race doesn't play a significant role in the majority of economic opportunities for blacks? The fact is that the majority of Asians experience far more economic hardship than most people would like to believe.

In this paper we compare the wages of whites and Asian Americans during the period of 1994 to
1998. We find little evidence to indicate that most native-born Asian American men must have
higher educational attainments than do white men in order to obtain equivalent wages. Except at
the very highest level of educational attainment—which pertains to a relatively small fraction of
the total work force--native-born Asian American men obtain wages that are at least as high as
those of white men with comparable education, experience and place of residence.

The same ones that other minorities with obviously different phenotypes face.

I did verify my claims, providing a list of sociodemographic statistics demonstrating that Asians suffer similar problems to other minorities. I then argued that the "model minority" myth perpetuates these problems, because it is often claimed that Asians don't suffer the way other minorities do. Don't believe it if you don't want to, but please do not make claims that I have provided no substantial evidence to support my claims.

Sine we aren't making any natural progress, I'm put in the unpleasant situation of having to lay down the law:

Arthur Sakamoto

As you can see, all the Asian ethnic groups listed above grew at a rather healthy rate between 1990 and 2000, except for Japanese Americans. Their population actually declined by almost 10%. Why? Several reasons, actually. First, there are very few Japanese who immigrate to the U.S. these days so therefore they do not experience the type of phenomenal growth that large immigrant groups experience, such as Asian Indians.

Second, as many Japanese American families are into their fifth or higher generation in the U.S., they have become one of the most assimilated of all Asian American groups.

The results show that as a whole Asian American families have higher median incomes than White families. However, this is because in most cases, the typical Asian American family tends to have more members who are working than the typical White family. It's not unusual for an Asian American family to have four, five, or more members working. A more telling statistic is median personal income (also known as per capita income). The results above show that Asian Americans still trail Whites on this very important measure.

...

Another telling statistic is how much more money a person earns with each additional year of schooling completed, or what sociologists call "returns on education." One of the first in-depth studies that looked at per capita income between Asian Americans and other racial/ethnic groups came from Robert Jiobu and is cited in Asian Americans: An Interpretive History by Sucheng Chan. Using this measure, research consistently shows that for each additional year of education attained, Whites earn another $522.

That is, beyond a high school degree, a White with 4 more years of education (equivalent to a college degree) can expect to earn $2088 per year in salary. In contrast, returns on each additional year of education for a Japanese American is only $438. For a Chinese American, it's $320. For Blacks, it's even worse at only $284. What this means is that basically, a typical Asian American has to get more years of education just to make the same amount of money that a typical White makes with less education.

...

Another point is that even despite the real successes we've achieved, Asian Americans are still significantly underrepresented in positions of political leadership

...

In many ways, Asian Americans are still the targets of much prejudice, stereotypes, and discrimination. For instance, the persistent belief that "all Asians are smart" puts a tremendous amount of pressure on many Asian Americans. Many, particularly Southeast Asians, are not able to conform to this unrealistic expectation and in fact, have the highest high school dropout rates in the country.

Grr vagueness. Such as?

Asians and Pacific Islanders face significant levels of discrimination when they search for housing in large metropolitan areas nationwide. For renters, patterns of adverse treatment are mixed; Asians and Pacific Islanders appear to be systematically favored with respect to housing inspections. Overall, the level of consistent adverse treatment against Asian and Pacific Islander renters is 21.5 percent—about the same as the level for African American and Hispanic renters. However, because of the mixed pattern of adverse treatment against Asians and Pacific Islanders, the lower-bound estimate of systematic discrimination is not significantly different from zero. Asian and Pacific Islander homebuyers experience consistent adverse treatment 20.4 percent of the time4, with systematic discrimination occurring in housing availability, inspections, financing assistance, and agent encouragement. This level of discrimination is comparable to the level experienced by African American homebuyers, and significantly higher than the level of discrimination against Hispanics.

Participants who had suffered intimate partner abuse were recruited through urban community-based organizations in San Francisco, California. Sociopolitical barriers to help seeking and patient-provider communication included social isolation, language barriers, and, for some, discrimination and fears of deportation. Sociocultural barriers included dedication to the children and family unity, shame related to the abuse, and the cultural stigma of divorce. Abused Latina and Asian immigrant women face significant social, cultural, and political barriers to patient-provider communication and help seeking.

They were asked to recall the frequency of "unfair treatment" they had been subjected to, including disrespect, discourteousness, insulting behavior, harassment, poor service, fearful reactions, and/or assumptions of dishonesty or stupidity. They were also asked to recount their medical histories, including heart and respiratory illness, chronic pain, allergies, arthritis, and asthma. Physician records were not reviewed.

Gee and his team found that Filipinos reported the highest level of discrimination, followed by Chinese-Americans and those of Vietnamese descent. And everyday discrimination was found to be associated with a variety of health problems, including chronic cardiovascular, respiratory, and pain-related health trouble.

Discrimination against those of Chinese descent was not linked to either pain or respiratory problems, but was associated with heart disease. In contrast, discrimination against those of Vietnamese descent was linked to cardiovascular illness, respiratory disease, and pain issues. Filipinos appeared subject to respiratory and pain difficulties, the study said.

The study authors theorized that the differences among the three Asian groups might be explained, in part, by their differing historical and cultural backgrounds.

But in all cases, the association between discrimination and health did not seem to be influenced by age, education level, income level, job status, language ability, or a desire to view one's life in a positive light, the researchers said.

Objectives. We examined whether self-reported everyday discrimination was associated with chronic health conditions among a nationally representative sample of Asian Americans.

Methods. Data were from the Asian American subsample (n = 2095) of the National Latino and Asian American Study conducted in 2002 and 2003. Regression techniques (negative binomial and logistic) were used to examine the association between discrimination and chronic health conditions. Analyses were conducted for the entire sample and 3 Asian subgroups (Chinese, Vietnamese, and Filipino).

Results. Reports of everyday discrimination were associated with many chronic conditions, after we controlled for age, gender, region, per capita income, education, employment, and social desirability bias. Discrimination was also associated with indicators of heart disease, pain, and respiratory illnesses. There were some differences by Asian subgroup.

I totally am in awe of your one paper that presents information that doesn't support mine.

the fact that your data supports your claim makes my data no less valid.

This paper focuses solely on native-born Americans, while I have been including both foreign born and native born in my arguments. That is one major difference that could account for the discrepancies between the data I presented and the data you presented.

Second, as many Japanese American families are into their fifth or higher generation in the U.S., they have become one of the most assimilated of all Asian American groups.

Peer-reviewed. I can post others if you want.

Thats the difference. Professor though he may be, its a private website with an editorial slant. (There is, for instance, a big thing about him supporting the minimum wage). The Asian nation, as I see it, is simply a big editorial blog. I grant you though its one better than most.

You see, its this kind of logic! If wage discrimination against Asian Americans exists, the why should it matter whether they are foreign born or native born?

We are talking about something here that simply cannot be based on race alone. If there is discrimination against foreign immigrants, as you say, thats foreignist, not racist. Japanese Americans play into this point:

That is, Japanese Americans assimilating and succeeding at all is proof its not racism we're talking about. If it truly were racism, and the majority are still just as racist, then the amount of time the Japanese have been here wouldn't have made a difference.

I saw no evidence that the paper you posted was peer reviewed. It wasn't even published in a journal. It was a research paper for a research group, and as far as I know, research papers are not often peer reviewed, unless they go on to be published by journals.

Sakamoto, A., and S. Furuichi. 2002. The Wages of Native-Born Asian
Americans at the End of the Twentieth Century. Asian American Policy
Review 10(1):17–30.

* About this Publication

Title:Asian American Policy Review
ISSN:1062-1830
Format:Magazine/Journal
Peer-Reviewed:Y
Frequency:Annual
Language:English
Audience:Academic
Gale Subject Headings:Public policy; Asian American studies; Government and political science; Multicultural studies; Social sciences
Description:Journal covering Asian Pacific American public policy.

I am not sure if you know anything about research methodology, but in order to have the best information available, one would do well to include as many people as possible.

Independent variables are those whose values are controlled or selected by the experimenter to determine its relationship to an observed phenomenon (the dependent variable).

Controlled variables are also important to identify in experiments. They are the variables that are kept constant to prevent their influence on the effect of the independent variable on the dependent. Every experiment has a controlling variable, and it is necessary to not change it, or the results of the experiment won't be valid.

I disagree to a certain extent. Assimilation is partially based on intermarriage rates, and as I noted before, by the fifth generation, it is less likely that a person will look typically Japanese, or even have kept a Japanese name.

Well, Turnea can answer this question himself if he wishes, but its about the legacy of racism. The legacy of racism has greatly impacted the modern black family today.

In any case Kim, I don't think we're going to settle this one! Perhaps another day

KIM... what I posted were facts. They were non-biased figures from our government and independant groups. Not opinions. What you've posted, unequivocally, are opinions, psychology pieces, and the like.

What I'm saying (SEE MY POSTS) is that the average Black American isn't more poverty stricken or has a harder lot in life, as a general rule, because of racism, but rather common family structure.

I'll make my point short and sweet... If the #1 indicator of poverty is a single parent home, and more Black Americans are living in single parent homes than any other demographic, is racism to blame for single parent homes?

I know what you're argument is, but I mostly think you're missing the point. While there are clear correlations between family structure and poverty, you have failed to explain why more blacks are stricken with this problem in comparison to their white counterparts