I have no doubt that it will be full of your opinion.



If you like him so much then you should give him the proper respect of referring to him by his legal name which is Muhammad Ali. He stopped going by Cassius Clay in 1964.



No surprise there. You're a legend in your own mind.



You don't rank high enough in my priorities for me to remember what I said to you seven months ago, seven weeks ago or seven days ago. You give far more gravity to my previous statements than I do yours.

I'm in your head, not the other way around. The only opinion I have about your opinion on racism is it is woefully unsubstantial and doesn't contribute much to the debate.

nighttimer





Your idea of respect would require one to read a book written by you on what not to say to African Americans, lol. Id probably have to spend 2 hours preparing to have a 5 minute conversation with every African American, sorry but ain't gonna happen. Cassius Clay was his birth name, I still hear people call him that mind you. Oh but that was just so disrespectful right? Well what can I say? I'm a bad man, lol. That one was Samuel L. Jackson's



Ahh well thanks for the complement, its not what I said, and I disagre with that as much as I do your views on racism, but thank you kindly.



Ha, a comedian, and you think you rank high enough in my priorities? I don't choose to remember stupid things, I just do. If there is a God he has a sense of humor thats for sure.

Just for the record, there are a few people here who DO rank high on MY priorities - because I learn from you when you respond.

I asked the black (and white) members of this forum some pretty pointed questions in various posts about racism because I, like all of you, have various experiences about "people of the other race". For every instance of racism I've had, someone else has had one too. We end up dwelling on the negatives, and expect that to be the status quo for many, if not most, other situations. Knowledge leads to reasoning, reasoning to logic, and logic to understanding.

Net2007, you bringing up some of your points in a forum earmarking the death of Dr. Martin Luther King is a little misplaced. There are plenty of areas where different facets of racism could be brought up, but you're starting a fight in a forum about a tragedy of a civil rights leader who believed in non-violent protest - and was successful. He was surrounded by many notable people who hated injustice. Jesse Jackson, for instance. Charlton Heston, also, is another example. MLK brought whites and blacks together, people who you, and I, and CruisingRam, and Nighttimer can all find a "familiar race" in. (I'm not sure if there were any Alaskans, but let's just assume there was) And adding 'lol' when someone writes an angry retort is actually the thing fueling the fire.

Nighttimer, Net's age and experience and situation doesn't necessarily mean he's not searching - he is likely going by what he sees, and what we all see - conflict. It's natural to generalize and say "black people" and "white people". I'm middle age too, and I'm learning more now than I obviously did in public OR private school.

The questions I asked were pointed, but they were pointed for a purpose. I asked why blacks felt that Sharpton and Jackson, despite their controversies, were even necessary. Everybody ignored my post, until Droop said that "Okay, AZwolf, I'll bite..." I'm guessing it was reluctantly, because it's probably a question he hears a million times, only to be argued with by the person he explains it to. I didn't do as well as I wanted to, but my intention was to listen, then shut up, then ponder, then respond. He made a great point, and I ended up seeing his point of view that I had never considered before. It's easy to blast someone for their inexperience. But give a reason why you believe what you believe, and it leads to understanding.

I was shocked with the hiring process. I had to hire 12 people for some quick part-time positions in a turn-around industry, and it never occurred ONCE to me that, "Oh, this person is black, he's going to talk jive with my customers". Or this "Rodriguez" guy is probably doing anything he can get stop being a gardener... I judged my hiring decision on who was hungry for the job without thinking about it. You could see who wanted the job. You could see who was willing to do what it took. Droop brought up his study on blacks getting call-backs based on name alone, and I was shocked. Apparently in my industry, this is probably an issue somewhere that I had never considered. Droop and Nighttimer live with this reality, and as I'm learning, so do their peers. So I'm trying to walk a block in their shoes.

Am I part of the problem? Am I perpetuating racism? I doubt it. I like the idea of giving someone who normally gets passed up the opportunity - because he or she would be driven to not only meet, but beat expectations - even though they knew it was only a temporary position. I ended up writing 5 letters of recommendation when that project ended. I can't imagine someone passing up quality people because their name sounded black. For the record, one white kid showed up in shorts, actually expecting the job. "Yes, thanks, I'll call you when everyone else I offer the job to passes it up and I need a warm body to fill the quota." I detected racism in his response, when he leaned forward and challenged my ability in dealing with "those" candidates, nodding to the three people next in line. So I ripped his resume in two, handed it back, and told him to eat a crap sandwich and die in a fire.

So when I hear that it is "white people's fault", or that "white people are....", yeah, I get a little defensive, because the stereotype smacks of generalization. It pains me to think that a black person would just throw that kind of judgment on me for the color of MY skin.

To be perfectly honest, I think the only question I knew was that the Port Chicago wasn't in Chicago, and that's because I lived there, and knew of no such port.

I think white racism has to do with the fact that most people in America are white. Do asians dislike blacks? Some do. Do italians dislike blacks? The ones I grew up around sure did! I think the general concession is not who quashes opportunities for blacks "the most", but who quashes opportunities "at all". Are there Fortune 500 Companie Execs that don't want blacks? Sure there are. One is probably the father of the asshat who I interviewed. But try being black at a family owned Chinese restaurant, and see if you have opportunity there - chances are, you don't - and chances are you don't if you're white, either. The asian culture doesn't think too highly of white workers either, but in recent years, that has gotten better too.

I think Net's point, hidden amongst some drama and youthful ignorance, was that it's always "white-ER" people who feel the sting for all "white" people. And since he is probably white-ER than his fellow white associates, he feels more of a target. If that's the case, I'm inclined to see why he feels that way. Until this thread, I didn't feel "white". I thought I was a Mediterranean. Well, Mediterranean is apparently white, as is my other infused cultures that make up my nationalities. Apparently, all this time I was asking the deal on "why white people", when I was one of them! I knew I was 50%, but by this definition, I'm 100%. Who knew!

And while blacks might include italians, irish, russians, and a whole host of other races under the generic non-black "white" label, that point is rarely made. Whites don't know that. As a result, people who are white (yet, not italian, or olive-skinned) feel like they're being targeted for the bulk of the racism that exists, and that other groups are given a free pass. "White", when portrayed as oppressing blacks in MTV videos and documentaries are never olive-skinned, or darker skinned "white", they're white like the whitest white you can find. Like Rush Limbaugh white. Not like Luciano Pavoratti white. They're like Michael J. Fox white, and not Angelina Jolie white. Like Jim Carrey white, and not Wolf Blitzer white. I would guess the most offended are the whitest of the white people. Other races seem unmoved or unaffected (and are perceived as un-targeted by whites who feel like they ARE targeted), and so they react differently who perceive themselves as "more white", and are thus, "more the target".

The shame is when they aren't racist, but feel like they're accused of being, that's likely where the perception of apathy comes from. They can't win. When Jesse or Al stands up and says "white people", or "White America", the whitest feel most accused. It could be an italian who did the offense, and then other whites point out and say, "That's not me", but alas.. that's not the perception from the black community - because blacks don't make that distinction.

And it should never be generalized like that. I think you should name names, not name races, who are the offenders. Otherwise, you create the broad "generalized" "white" apathy you (and I) detest. The only thing I'd say is: be accurate, and be above reproach. Or else, nobody is going to take it seriously, leading to MORE apathy.

So that's my two cents. I'll respond if responded to, but otherwise, I will silently celebrate the dedication of this thread with the dignity and respect it deserves.


There is a God. And He sends guys like MLK down to create changes for oppressed people who cried out to Him, as He did several times historically noted in the Good Book.

You may deny the Bible is an inspired work from God if you choose to disbelieve parts of it. But you can't deny that Martin Luther King Jr. was an inspired work from God. He served quite faithfully throughout his calling, and is remembered for it. I tend to believe those two had a very mutual and close relationship, and still do.


*edited to change that to "crap sandwich"

Finally with a little time on my hands I can give this reply the attention it deserve.

First as interesting as the immediate proceeding has been it is (say it with me now)....

Missing the Point

As I occasionally explain I'm majoring in Engineering and Applied Mathematics and it lends a certain practical bend to my thinking. My AP Biology teacher told me I have a talent for cutting through the crap and getting to the point, it's the one thing I do really well.

Therefore when confronted with questions like these I start tossing out the red herrings.

1.) This has about squat to do with anybodies feelings. People are people, blacks are not substantially less motivated than other Americans and they sure as heck aren't any lazier. Cultural? You gotta be kidding me...

2.) The effects of present-day discrmination are quite limited as well. Though is more of a barrier than attitude, by and large federal enforcement, vigilant independent advocacy groups, and a change in attitude towards overt racism have tamped that down pretty well.

3.) I'm hoping this is the last time I have to say this I mean if I'm wrong argue, but you can't ignore it. This cannot be understood merely on the micro, individual level.

Macro, community level effects folks, think big.

So net2007 you name-trade suggesting doesn't actually answer any questions at all.

The reasons why blacks are economically behind are less accumulated wealth due to past racism and concentrated poverty due to past racist public policy, white flight and the like.

Cyclical poverty is a systemic defect... and the "ghetto" is the child of American racism.

Turnea said:

Hey, NOW we're making progress.

What should Black America (the demographic) do...
What should White America (the demographic) do...

... to improve the quality of life for everyone TODAY?


**edited to add that this is my practical bend of thinking, and attempt of cutting through the crap...

The ghetto must die.

Concentrated poverty and the hyper-segregation of the black urban poor must be combated with mixed income housing and education system revitalization.

There are plenty of details to consider. Funding overhauls, administration strategy changes... but that's the general idea.

It's not about what black and white America must do it's about what we must all use public policy to do.

IIRC, there is some success in this direction already- correct? And I don't believe this is a strictly race issue in regards to "mixed housing"- we are doing it here in Alaska already- a hybirdization of public/private funds building housing that combines high end condos to public housing apartments and all the stuff in between.

I recall seeing it on a news brief- perhaps you may have more info?

I definitely agree with the concept of mixed housing, but it should be noted that the way that governments implement it is not really working. At least, not in Denver, where I have the most knowledge. Often, mixed income housing is built to get rid of low-income, or public assistance housing, and when the new housing is built, it almost never replaces the amount of low-income units. Thus, while some low-income units are built, a substantial amount of people are left without affordable housing.

Do you know of any examples of where this has been successfully implemented?

Azwhitewolf, my issue with net2007 isn't simply that his knowledge and understanding of racial issues are shallow. They most certainly are, but the fact that he doesn't realize how silly he sounds/reads and instead of demonstrating he grasps his lack of depth and tries to fill in the blanks, he instead falls back upon his unsupported opinions and tedious personal anecdotes.

I'm not looking for people to agree with me. I'd prefer to make them think about something first and agree only after they've thought it through. If they want to say I'm totally full of it, that's cool too as long as they can pick apart my argument because if they don't I'm sure going to pick apart theirs.

It's not in my interest to put Whites on the spot as it is to get them to acknowledge the spot exists. I look at Barack Obama as a end product of the efforts of a Martin Luther King, Jr. and he knows he wouldn't be in the position he's in today without King and all those Black, White, Christian, Jew, male, female, gay, straight and yada, yada, yada that bought into and supported the Civil Rights Movement. I know for certain I wouldn't be on this board if it weren't for MLK.

net2007 is a young man who thinks. Sometimes not very well and not very deeply and certainly not very critically, but he's thinking and thinking is just like lifting weights. Start off with something too heavy and you'll hurt yourself. That may scare you off of trying again. To his credit, net2007 is learning. I have no interest in trying to change his opinion. I am interested in getting him to put more facts behind his opinion though.

What I think you should keep in mind about the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world, azwhitewolf, is the reason they seem like such minor figures compared to Dr. King is because they are. They are part of the group that Obama said Reverend Wright is part of; Black Americans who see racism as a static thing that has not truly evolved for them. It's still far easier to organize a boycott of a Wal-Mart than it is of a drug-dealer or a street gang. It's easier to look outward for others you can lay blame upon than inward to solve your own problems. It's always open season on scapegoats.

I don't think of Jackson and Sharpton as evil or even bad guys. I think of them in the same way I think of The Rolling Stones: one-time rebels who have grown
old but are still peddling the same formula that made them successful when they were younger men. They're passe, but they can't update their act and they won't get off the stage.



Well, that's because it takes some time for people whom have suffered from broad and sweeping generalizations to not apply that standard to others.

For example, I used to think Republicans were bigoted. Not specific ones. ALL of them. Of course, this wasn't true and never was, but what did I know? I didn't KNOW any Republicans personally. I used to be a really vicious homophobe. I knew all the nastiest gay jokes and I laughed at them too. Then my best friend came out of the closet and I had to rethink my gay-bashing mindset.

The same thing happened when I had to write about Republicans and interview them and cover Republican events. I found out by one-on-one exposure to Republicans that damned if they didn't hate Black folks and they didn't eat mayo sandwiches either! What a total shock.

You're never too old to give up your prejudices. It helps when you're aware you have them.



Not a problem. There's a lot of Black folks that would have gotten more than a few of those questions wrong. I wasn't aware of the Port Chicago mutiny myself until about five years ago or so. My father who was in the Navy during WWII knew all about it, but that was one war story he didn't talk about until I prodded him. It's part of the vast amount of American history that's hidden from most of us.



To be Black in America is often to feel as if you're guilty until proven innocent. This uncomfortable feeling of being thought of as a racist until proven not to be is something White people are victimized by. Barack Obama is taking heat (unjustifiably, in my opinion) for suggesting some American voters feel "bitter" and I think it's obvious many White people feel bitter that they're presumed to be bigots and racists when they are nothing of the sort.

When backed into a corner, its a natural reaction to lash out and protest you've been unfairly characterized by people who don't know for something you had nothing to do with and certainly never benefited from. That's one of the reasons kimpossible is taking flak for advancing the notion of "White privilege." A lot of White people don't see how THEY have gotten any breaks lately for being White, but they can find plenty of examples of how some minority member has gotten over due to affirmative action or a diversity hiring program or whatever.

As a Black man it's difficult for me to fathom exactly how a White man feels. We can share the exact same experience and come away from it drawing entirely unique conclusions. However, if we can find a way to communicate without all our preconceptions, history and other garbage, and figure out a way to get past the blame game, we can come to decision without fear of stepping on each other's toes and bruising our respective egos.

azwhitewolf


AZ Ive read many of your post on racism, and of many of the members debating racism, your opinion is one of the most down to earth Ive seen here. Your just a little more eloquent in your approach than I am. I realize I haven't debated much on MLK here in this forum but to make an opinion on him first Id just like to say I think he helped bring about the end of a chapter in American history that needed to end. Now while I cant say that everything he said or did meant something to me personally I think he was a good hearted American, and a hero in many ways. I see him however under a different lens than Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton. The reason is that everything MLK preached in his time was more than relevant and applicable to his time. He said what needed to be said, at a time our society more than needed it.

Nighttimer, Turnea, or Jessie Jackson would make a whole lot more sense to me now if we were all having this conversation in 1960's America.
Its not that I don't think that men like Jessie Jackson don't continue to do some good things either, its just I pay attention to what people say, and for some reason I remember these things. Over a period of time its easy to see what really motivates people.

I'll tell you a few things about Al Sharpton for example, he says he is an advocate for equality, yet a year ago Al got on the O'riley Factor and said whites can be racist but blacks cannot, because racism takes power and whites have all the power. So a supposed advocate for equality said on national television that racism is a trait that can and does belong to the white man, but not to African Americans.

In 1991 Al Sharpton encouraged the African American community of Crown Heights New York, to take offense to what was ruled to be a traffic accident.

To be specific a Jewish man lost control of his vehicle and killed one African American kid while injuring another. The EMS unit that arrived on the scene after the accident said that the driver was being beaten and pulled out of the station wagon by three or four black men. All accounts agree that he was beaten before ambulances and police arrived.

This then escalates into a full fledged riot that lasted 3 days and injured 152 police officers and 38 civilians, 27 vehicles were destroyed, seven buildings were looted or burned, and 225 cases of robbery and burglary were committed........

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/am...0.2shapiro.html

Most tragic of all was the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum, a Jew member of the community who was pulled from his car hours later and stabbed to death; by a Black teenager, "Mr. Nelson, 28", who conceded his guilt for the first time at his trial saying.........

((''I know there's no excuse for what I did to Yankel Rosenbaum,'' he said. ''If there's anything I could do to bring him back, I'd do it in a heartbeat.))


This riot was an emotionally driven situation that lead to a lot of hate, and racially charged feelings primarily from African Americans to those in the Jewish community of Crown Heights New York.........

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75BC0A9659C8B63

I don't try to use events such as this to demonize the black man, but I do use it to learn about individual cases of racism. This is where Al Sharpton's roll in this is seen. With knowledge of everything that happened in this riot Al Sharpton At the funeral of Gavin Cato, ( the black boy who was killed in the traffic accident) Said a number of racist things. The banners commemorating the accident victim shared space with others that said things like "Hitler did not do the job," while Al Sharpton caricatured Jews as "diamond dealers".�...........

http://www.city-journal.org/article01.php?aid=1473

He was also heard saying things like ((If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house))........

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200312030840.asp

That link also suggest he was encouraging an already sensitive crowd to take offense to this traffic accident as if it were surely another case of racism , he was at least partially responsible for escalating this riot out of control, which led to the murdering of an innocent civilian. A full description of this event is available at...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights...-Shapiro_AJH-18

Sharpton, thought his life has pursued to label other races, and widen the racial divide between whites and blacks, after the history he has, he as the nerve to portray himself as an advocate for equality, or peruse getting people fired over comments he calls racist?

Now in regards to MLK I know Al has a history with MLK, but I think king Jr. would keel over in disbelief if he knew some of the stuff Al Sharpton went on to do with his life. These are just some examples of cases that show Sharpton is motivated by racism, and he is far from the only Racist black man who has become idolized and looked up to by some in the African American community.

Not all, maybe not even most, but too many African Americans are more than willing to talk about racism problems among white America, while defending people such as Al Sharpton to the fullest. Turnea in one example, Nighttimer as well. I don't think people like that represent the bulk of the African American community though. This is African American news journalist Larry Elder speaking about Al Sharpton........

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read....83-5920B532ED23



This is him again in an article titled ((When the Bad Guy is Black)) which talks about a few different instances of hypocrisy among African Americans, and mentions names such as Jesse Jackson, Jesse James, and Al Sharpton. One quote from this article reads........

Sooner or later, the mainstream media and the ((white-man-done-me-wrong black leadership)) must face the facts. Black/white interracial crime is almost entirely committed by blacks against whites. By ignoring this, and holding black criminals to a different standard, the media heightens tension and divisiveness. ...............

http://www.larryelder.com/mediabias/badguyblack.htm


Also remember Larry Elder is himself an African American......... http://www.larryelder.com/

Now personally I don't know that Black/white interracial crime is almost entirely committed by blacks against whites. I haven't seen that data myself, and I'm not mentioning stories such as this to make a strike against African Americans. Only that I actually believe that African Americans in general do not see racism as a one way street, they have more common sense than that. However Nightimer, Turnea, Jessie Jackson, or Al Sharpton on the other hand understand racism through one type of lens, and while they may claim they understand the problem is more complex, their post, and their words tell a different story. White Americans like Cruisingram feel a need to defend this type of behavior because I think many white Americans themselves are petrified of being labeled racist. Its a crazy world man, and either things regarding racism really haven't gotten that much better, or people are just getting stupider, one of the two.








Funny you should say that because I agree, labels as broad as white or black, can indeed be misleading. I'm not entirely white myself, which I'm sure some posters here would find surprising.

As I said my mother is 100% Cajun with an olive skin complexion. My father on the other hand is Italian, and Irish. My skin tone comes from my fathers side, while my stature tends to come from my mothers side. I love them both with all my heart and they have helped me in ways that nobody else has. I heard Cruisingram tell me to stop embarrassing myself on this issue of race, lol. I know my opinion can sound critical, and even unsympathetic at times. However its because I was taught the concept of personal responsibility young, and I also learned how race has been used in recent decades a a crutch by many who don't want to take that responsibility. People who want that responsibility to fall on someone else and I learned this as a half Cajun American growing up in a community that was Cajun and African American dominant.

Net- if you are going to talk about Al Sharpton- please tell the WHOLE story.

He rose to prominence nationally because of two other incidents:

[edit] Bensonhurst
On August 23, 1989, four Black teenagers were beaten by a group of 10 to 30 white youths in Bensonhurst, a Brooklyn neighborhood. One Bensonhurst resident, armed with a handgun, shot and killed sixteen-year-old Yusef Hawkins.

In the weeks following the assault and murder, Sharpton led several marches through Bensonhurst. The first protest, just days after the incident, was greeted by neighborhood residents shouting "Niggers go home" and holding watermelons to mock the demonstrators.[31]

In May 1990, when one of the two leaders of the mob was acquitted of the most serious charges brought against him, Sharpton led another protest through Bensonhurst. In January 1991, when other members of the gang were given light sentences, Sharpton planned another march for January 12, 1991. Before that demonstration began, neighborhood resident Michael Riccardi tried to kill Sharpton by stabbing him in the chest.[32] Sharpton recovered from his wounds, and later asked the judge for leniency when Riccardi was sentenced.[33]

And:
Howard Beach
On December 20, 1986, three African-American men were assaulted in the Howard Beach neighborhood of Queens by a mob of white men. The three men were chased by their attackers onto the Belt Parkway, where one of them, Michael Griffith, was struck and killed by a passing motorist.[28]

A week later, on December 27, Sharpton led 1,200 demonstrators on a march through the streets of Howard Beach. Residents of the neighborhood, who were overwhelmingly white, screamed racial epithets at the protesters, who were largely Black.[29] Sharpton's role in the case, which led to the appointment of a special prosecutor by New York Governor Mario Cuomo after the two surviving victims refused to co-operate with the Queens district attorney, helped propel him to national prominence.

It is this half assed sifting of the facts that NT is busting you on my man.

nighttimer



You asked what id consider to be some pretty specific well placed questions regarding African American culture to try and throw me off, yet I knew the answers to over half of them. I don't know how much you understand the demographics of where I grew up, and you certainly don't understand my upbringing and experiences with minorities witch far exceeds most others you refer to as white. I can say this because where I grew up is probably one of the most racially mixed areas of this country, in a similar way Miami is but where blacks and Cajuns make up over half the population. In fact my mother has been confused for having either a black mother or father based on her skin tone. However she is actually Cajun, which is another minority in this country. I had as many Black and Cajun friends growing us as I had white friends, until the age of 18 when we moved to the mountains of North Carolina. The demographics here are vastly different and more closely resemble most middle American towns.

So your not in a position to tell me my knowledge and understanding of racial issues is shallow. Where did you grow up? Every criticism Ive thrown at you has been based on your post, not things I don't know about. If I don't know about something for sure I'm quick to be the first one to say so.


CruisingRam



You dont really read my post, this was in the last one.............

Its not that I don't think that men like Jessie Jackson don't continue to do some good things either, its just I pay attention to what people say, and for some reason I remember these things. Over a period of time its easy to see what really motivates people.

This applies to Al Sharpton as well, it even applies to the KKK. Did you know the KKK originated as a Christian organization that throughout the years actually did many good deeds to help white Americans? This doesn't mean your going to catch me embracing them either, because I know that what motivated them was the sole protection of their own race. Same applies to Sharpton, he is racist as well, he just doesn't break the law and kill people. He uses the system to push his message across and label other races in the sole protection of his race. Thats his motivation, wake up.

In your case, net2007, it's definitely the latter.

You go on (and on and on and on...) on a tirade about Turnea, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and myself about...well, I don't know WHAT you're babbling on about. But as Turnea said once you have missed the point entirely.

He can speak for himself (if he wants to waste his time), but for someone who says, "its just I pay attention to what people say, and for some reason I remember these things", how did you miss what I just said about Jackson and Sharpton just before you posted?



Does that seem like a ringing endorsement of Al and Jesse to you, net2007? Maybe it does since you seem to lump Turnea and I together with them. It's not all because we're Black men is it?



Thanks for yet another tedious personal anecdote. Don't you get it yet? Nobody CARES where you grew up. You think where you grew up or because your mom is Cajun that means you know anything?



net2007, my criticism are based on your posts and your reliance on your petty and uninteresting personal experiences over facts. You argue from emotion, not logic and if the facts aren't in your favor, you just repeat your opinion again as if that will make it true.

That is what makes your "criticisms' as hard-hitting as a feather.

Some people get it and some people don't. You don't get it.



Repeating something that isn't true doesn't make it true. Even you should be able to figure that out, net2007.

And you don't pay attention to what people say. If you did, you'd remember this from January:


http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...st&p=236491

I also quoted another Black man, Ta-Neshi Coates who said of Sharton, "Memo to everyone everywhere: Al Sharpton isn't a black leader, he just plays one on TV."

But you probably think that's a compliment.

That's why I find your posts on race about as deep as a mud puddle. You rant about how I'm so supportive of Sharpton, when I've demonstrated I'm not. But that doesn't fit into your predetermined idea of who I am and what I believe in. You just have me pegged as this anti-White demagogue who guilt-trips all the White members into not criticizing me.

Yeah, sure. You've got vision and everyone else is blind. That's why I call you a legend in your own mind, net2007. You think so highly of your puerile opinion
you can't see how silly you make yourself.

Here's a new word for you. HUMILITY. Don't be so impressed with yourself. You aren't that great. Your opinions on race definitely aren't.

Turnea:


Great. Where do we start? Sometimes I don't even think I understand the problem, much less becoming part of the solution. (and no pointing to the Dem party - the Pubs are in the same boat, IMHO). But still, I want to be a part of the solution. But when you hear a story about climbing like monkeys, for example, how can I stand behind the "injustice" that I can only guess is being perceived?

Nighttimer:

Well, I think I had to have a few examples of being show how that spot exists. I'll take that. But I didn't get there with, "You don't understand" or better, "you can't understand". I got there by having a rational discussion. Without WANTING to debate, or be on this board, I'd have never bothered because it didn't affect any part of my life. If that's "white privilege" - that I don't have to deal with race issues - then I can see that point too.

Nighttimer said:

That would suggest that any offense is engrained - would it be accurate to say that they have taught themselves that anything possibly racist, IS racist, for the mere fact that the racism that goes unnoticed is far greater, and thus ANY racism is "a big deal"? For instance, blacks get 50% less callbacks for job interviews. So when an Obama Delegate does her swinging like monkeys bit, that kind of offense is justified because it happens elsewhere, but this particular example could be publicized for great attention - the end result being that the message that "racism DOES exist" is broadcast.

Whites aren't ready for that. They see "swinging in trees like monkeys" and think, boy it's a friggin figure of speech, are those silly black guys at it again, or WHAT?!

From the Sharpton (or Jackson, I get them confused) thread, I was able to learn the merits of both of them while I was systematically attempting to debunk their credibility. Why? Because I didn't see racism on the level that you guys say is happening today. "Hey, a black person can get a license, go to school, vote, and eat anywhere - what's the problem?"
was my opinion. Only because I didn't know. I know one of the two blows more hot air than the other, and fine - politics is a dumb circus on any level. But I can appreciate their significance for other people - and even moreso if they'd accomplish something rather than sueing white people "to teach them a lesson". However, I understand that sometimes aggressive approaches to civil WRONGS need an aggressive and opposite reaction to get the point across.

Just as some people might not believe in God, they don't have to mock on my belief because they don't see the significance of it... TO ME.

Nighttimer:

I don't either. (Which one is best compared to Keith Richards?)

Nighttimer:

See, I can see that some people actually believe that in order to be a Repub, you have to sell your soul, and enjoy stepping on others, and lighting cigars with hundies.

Mayonnaise. (I'm a Miracle Whip guy, so the laughs on you)

Nighttimer:

Allow me to note the word "feeling", which I think is a very overused word. Aren't we better off dealing in things "that are" versus "what I feel"?

Facts eventually reach a conclusion, and often, an accurate one. Feelings tend to lead to more feelings, which tends to lead to opinions. And feelings on those! If we stick with facts, we keep the emotions out of it. Aren't we better off dealing with facts?

Nighttimer:

Who is to say that the best applicant *must* be a certain color? Do we make up for past injustice by creating an equal injustice for the perceived delivering party? I can imagine why AA or diversity program is appealing for minorities, though, and if there was something I wanted to do, I don't feel I have much of a glass ceiling. Ahhh, there are those pesky feelings again!

Nighttimer:

And believe me, the last thing I want to do is step on your toes. Or for you to perceive a reason to not like me because I say or do something that I would find innocent, and you would take offense at.

I've seen how white people change their tone of voice and use black lingo when speaking to blacks. I know one guy I work with who is incredibly white, and not only uses the lingo, but adds his whiteified vocal inflexions which makes it doubly corny. "What be up, ho-mie". Seriously, I throw up a little in my mouth every time I hear him butcher that line. And I can imagine a (no, make that EVERY) black guy thinking, "boy is this guy a LOSER". And he says what he thinks, and is always quick to apologize - probably because he knows he offends people way too often; some are just too kind to give him the verbal beach-slap for it. Maybe I'm projecting my imagination (and I have to wonder), but I think every black thinks he's a white aresehole. Without exception. And he can't be the only one. There must be hundreds. And from what I hear, every black person has met this guy.

I'd love to be the id, ego and superego of a black man's brain for just ONE DAY. See what he sees, hear what he thinks, and watch the reasoning. And reaction of people around him.

Nighttimer:

That was kind of my point in the Sharpton (Or was it Jackson??) thread. I don't think either side is willing to be vulnerable. The blacks who find even a hint of injustice will claim that "we're going back to the fields" (a total shrill exaggeration), and the whites will claim, "this is reverse racism meant to punish white people" (in also, a total shrill exaggeration) and then what?

But wow, wouldn't it be a beautiful thing to actually take the chance? What kind of tradition could we start, starting next MLK Day to set the example? (I can't think of a better day). I'm not waiting for the black civil rights leaders, and since there are no white civil rights leaders (organized, that I know if, anyway).. anyone game on this, or am I being stupid and naive?

It's obviously the next step, and I don't see anyone taking it.


Net2007

Net, it boils down to knowing WHY you believe WHAT you believe. And then being able to convince people. Sometimes I have to erase paragraphs because it misses a fact, a point, or the ability to sway opinion. It took me a while, but I learned that people who don't think like I do don't give a particular crap what I think or feel. It's what I know, or how I construct my argument that proves my worth in a debate.

I read the Wiki on Jackson, and I could pick out his infidelity, or how he funded his mistress from the Rainbow Funds. However, as a Christian, I had to apply that to people I consider like-leaders, and realize that you can't discount the GOOD things and his core mesage he has delivered for some people, just as you can't discount the entire Bible because Jim Bakker turns out to be a cheating, stealing, money-fleecing assjacket. There is still a message that is bigger than the messenger - and that is what is appealing to people, and before you can discount it, you have to know WHY people are drawn to that message. Attacking the messenger is quaint - especially when they have followers who are willing to stand up for them. So make sure you have something more to add if what you say is going to enflame them - facts, studies, you know.. substantial proof, or at least something that points to a trend.

I figure a personal anecdote is appropriate only after I've made my point with facts, and it lets my audience learn a little something about me. I've made an asshat out of myself by NOT doing that, and I don't know anybody who would come here just to hold a grudge. Oh boy, I do hope that's true! (Hippies, you hearing me?)

Your critics still have some nice things to say about you, and that's a high compliment. But don't count that as a pass for facts. And I like your debate style - it's a little like mine, but a little more shaggy.. and raw. You've just turned your distortion pedal on the guitar a little too high. There isn't one "ah-ha!" fact that is going to make people understand when they perceive something different, and you merely saying so isn't the trumping of an argument. You're doing fine. Just don't rely on your personal opinions to carry you through a rational debate.

Remember two things: And I say this because I like where you're coming from, and I think you have a lot to offer - you need to direct it to the TOPIC, and not the POSTER. People want to engage with you, but they can't. You're stuck on you, and that doesn't mean anything to THEM. Get stuck on the topic, and see if your opponent is right or wrong. Then know why. THEN hit the reply button and make your points.

1. Perception is reality. If I perceive you to be something, that is my reality. Likewise, if you perceive something... that is your reality. To change someone else's reality, you have to reach a little higher and back up your personal "reality" with facts, be willing to be unbiased (momentarily assume what you think is absolutely 100% wrong) and work your way back using only facts and logic, be willing to give in if you're wrong, and be willing to stand fast if you're right. And be willing to realize that your own reality may actually be wrongality, and needs to be modified. If someone gives you the insight to change your reality, thank them. They've done you a favor.

2. Read more than you write, and don't just read... "learn".

3. AZWW is full of philosophical bullcr.... Oh, wait, don't count that. I said two things. Disregard #3.

edited to add: I'm traveling this week, but I'll try to stop in and continue. Don't consider my absence for disinterest.

nighttimer



Whooaaa!! Its just that kind of spice that makes your sarcasm worth a world of smiles and giggles man.



Of course he said I missed the point entirely. My whole point has been to illustrate that racism is a two way street and debaters such as yourself only see one side. What is he or you actually going to agree that your not looking at the bigger picture? When pigs fly perhaps, in the meantime you will spin me as misguided or uneducated, as always. Denial seems your way, and subsequently you'll deny that.

What was that you said about Sharpton by the way? I just heard you call him a rockstar to AZ. What a tight criticism man. If only you displayed such a critical view to white police officers arresting black men, id almost mistake you for an advocate for equal rights, almost. (sarcasm)



I think that Because your black? You would think that. No I think that because your you, your Nighttimer, the one and only. Well I'm assuming thats not your real name I read your post, I know your arguments. Thats the reason I separate AL Sharpton, from Barack Obama. Or you from the member Droop. You may agree on key issues regarding racism but the devil is in the details, and you have said some particuarly racist things on this site while calling white members racist. What is it you said regarding whites again??? (Most whites are...............) Hrm, Well looks like I might have to look that one up, aww shucks. Oh of course, thats right you suggested white men are infinitely arrogant and clueless by saying.....

(only a white man in his infinite arrogance and cluelessness, would make such a comment)

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...=16018&st=0 (post 19)

Accusing me of profiling you on your skin color, after having said that crap is exactly what makes you so special Nighttimer. Its the hypocrisy you display. You couldn't quote me saying things like that, so again I don't care if your black, grew up in the ghetto, and debate race every day, your not in the position to tell me I don't understand racism, and I was able to gather this from your posting alone.





I don't know, perhaps you don't care about my upbringing which is exactly why you are not in the position to comment on it, get it?



Emotion not logic? I've posed facts on the one person I went as far as to call a racist bigot, with several links to back it, that being Sharpton.
I post links all the time with facts and figures. However I admit my opinion is an opinion, and I welcome counterarguments and feedback. Including if its the goofy things you say, that contradict your own posting record


Lol, yet another tough criticism on Al Sharpton by Nightimer. Irrelevant? People like Him are more than relevant to the problem of racism in the national dialog, thats not a criticism its you excusing who you consider to be a rock Star. Rock Star was it? Yea Rock Star thats right. When a racist has the power to effect the lives of others thats not a joke, I don't care if he's white or black.


Well I'll be a blue nosed gofer, the abbreviation lol was appropriate for over half my responses to you. You really are a trip, I'm impressed with myself?
Just because I'm not impressed with you doesn't mean I'm impressed with myself. I take that back, I am impressed with you! Because you make me laugh, and laughter is important in times like these. So even though I'm not great, which I agree with you on, guess what I think you are great!! Just for being as funny as you are, that makes you great. In fact, I nominate you into my top 10 favorite posters on this site. Anything else?

azwhitewolf


AZ, I appreciate your complements as well as your criticisms. I'll probably always have a raw and blunt debate style however.

I have to comment on this because I got a laugh out of it.........

This was you to Nightimer..........


Lol, I know exactly what you mean man, and blacks probably do think he is a loser. We all have to be proud of who we are and not try to be something we are not for the sake of others. Thats my whole philosophy, this is also probably why I seem as raw as I do at times. I know people like your describing as well. For example my friend Joe lived with me in a half way house with a guy named Ricky Sanchez. He is a half black, and half Hispanic man. My friend Joe looked up to him, in fact so did I. However Joe would have this way where he would talk, act, and even dress like Ricky. In fact this ticked Rick off actually, lol. As for me I acted just as I always did. Listened to Rock, dressed white and talked white. Well with a hint of Cajun. I tell you what though me and Rick were close friends for being as different as we were. Thats how true friends I believe are made.

Yeah. Let's go back to my January post that offended you so.





O.K. net2007. That's what I said a few months ago and I stand by every word of it now.

What I would like to know is this. Read the following remarks by quick and barnaby2341 and tell me this: do you find anything racist, offensive or inflammatory about their remarks or only in mine?

nighttimer




They said some things to you that looked like they could have been offensive, I said that already. The difference is you debate matters of race more than almost anyone here, additionally you speak out against racism and narrow mindedness on a regular basis. Although about the only type of narrow mindedness you debate regarding race matters is in regards to other races.

The point is, its when a man is tested when he is most likely to reveal his true character. You used a comment that generalized about your race to give you the excuse to generalize about ours. You should have used that offensive comment to direct criticism at the one who delivered such a comment, instead you say............

(only a white man in his infinite arrogance and cluelessness, would make such a comment)

In doing so, you say how you feel about whites in general rather than barnaby2341. Along with many other things you have said to white members of this site, and the positions you take regarding racism which is almost always focused on whites, over time it becomes obvious what your motivation is. Its one thing to be narrow minded and say racist things, which I see all the time, however to then go around and preach out against the very thing you practice, well thats what lead me to draw comparisons between you and Sharpton.

Now I'm not a moderator on this site, and honestly you can behave anyway you want here for all I care, but when you of all people start telling me I don't get racism by saying...... (((Some people get it and some people don't. You don't get it.))) lol, Thats when I'll start doing things like quoting you.

You also are not in the position of accusing me of criticizing you based on your color. Your not going to hear me say only a black man, in his infinite arrogance and cluelessness, would say something offensive to another race, or anything like that because I don't believe it.

Racism in America remains a problem even 40 years after the assassination of MLK. However it's a problem that exist primarily on the social level, its not a significant problem with our laws, cops, courts, or even Washington, although there are some exceptions, in isolated cases. What you don't know, or don't care to discuss is that many of those exceptions in both the system and in the general public are displayed among African Americans!! So as you endlessly ramble on about how white silence in regards to white racism is a problem, you fail to speak out against some African Americans who are racist or bigots. You excuse them as insignificant where as white racist are a big problem. Ive heard this all before Nightimer, and it doesn't convince me in the least. A half drunk teenage girl playing poker for the first time, is more convincing than you.

You keep talking about how we have so far to go in this nation regarding racism, bla bla bla. The black man is held back by whites, bla bla bla. White cops waste their time with blacks committing small time crimes because they're racist, ect ect ect. The same old stale unsubstantiated claims Ive heard again and again and again. You know so keep telling me that my opinions are based on emotion, even as you fail to substantiate anything you claim. All I ever claimed was racism is a two way street, and its a problem that exist among every race on this planet to some extent. Thats not exactly a bold claim based on emotion, its common sense.

"Could" have been offensive?

"Could." Not "are" offensive?

Okay. Thanks. That tells me all I need to know about how "open-minded" you are.



First, there is nothing---absolutely nothing---wrong about debating matters of race. In case nobody told you, this is a debate board, not My Space or Facebook. We actually debate things that matter around here and yes, race is one of those things. You have a marked tendency yourself to post in threads about race though what you know about race is often trivial and superficial.

To an extent, that is to be expected. You are a callow young man lacking both experience and knowledge of racial matters. Stick around though and you will learn. If not from me, then from others on You are not as "open-minded" as you think you are, but over the time you will pick up from other more serious debater than you. It's like osmosis.
You may think you come to the board with your thoughts fully formed and your thoughts already fully formed, but trust me when I say this if you don't believe anything else I say; you cannot associate with intelligent people of the caliber and quality of and not come away smarter than you were before you came in.

Thank you for pointing out that I speak out against racism and narrow-mindedness on a regular basis. That was very perceptive of you (see, you're getting smarter already). I always have opposed racism, sexism and discrimination of any type against any type of human being. Even White males such as yourself.

But that does not mean we are always going to be in agreement as to what constitutes discrimination or what the remedy to it may be. When you say that I am "narrow-minded" in regards to other non-Black races, I understand what you're saying. However, what you don't understand is that as a Black American my priority is and always will be protecting and standing up for Black people first and America second. History has shown that the relationship between Blacks and America is often a strained and contentious one with both sides occasionally wronging and wounding the other.

I have been a member of this board for over five years and in that time I have seen a lot of terrible posters, some great ones, a ton of mediocre and boring ones and a handful of absolutely exceptional ones. I've been here long enough to build my bona fides and establish my standing. You think because you've read a handful of nearly 2,700 posts you got me pretty well figured out? Bub, you have no idea.

Want to know where you rank, net2007? You're still a work-in-progress. Take to heart what azwhitewolf told you earlier. The same goes for CruisingRam suggestions. You can't learn only from those you agree with. I certainly never have.



Yeah, but "common" sense isn't always common.

I presented you with some statements I consider vile, inflammatory and--yes, racist. I figured an self-proclaimed open-minded man would agree with me. I wasn't all that surprised when you didn't. Your open mind closes like a bank vault on the subject of nighttimer. Just as I have formed an opinion of you that colors my perspective about you that cuts both ways. We don't agree on what common sense is. What offends me doesn't offend you and vice-versa.

I know Blacks can be racist. Racism is about attitude as much as it is power. A redneck in a double-wide doesn't have a lot of power, but he can hate "niggers" just as much, though not as effectively, as a Black CEO who uses his position to "stick it" to the "crackers" every chance he gets. What I don't agree with you is the playing field is level and Black racism is as vile and destructive towards Whites as White racism has been toward Blacks. In America, when Blacks exhibit racist behavior towards Whites it is usually expressed through verbal and emotional confrontations and at it's most dangerous, through violence directed at Whites. Murder, rape, assault, robbery are the most violent ways that Black criminals direct racist anger toward Whites. Those options are on the table for White criminals as well though there is more Black-on-White crime than White-on-Black.

There is no excuse for criminal behavior. But that does not mean as in The Jena 6 case (an issue CruisingRam and I took opposing sides) that every crime by a Black against a White (or vice-versa) is based on race. Sometimes people just plain don't like each other and react accordingly.

This one doesn't get thrown around much on MLK Day, but Dr. King said, It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society.

That is a pretty radical statement to make, but King understood that while a Black man without power can steal your money or your life, a White man with power can steal your soul and your future.

Does that fall under your definition of "common sense" net2007?

nighttimer




I'm not African American so I don't claim to know everything that would offend you, it was obviously an unnecessary and generalizing comment. Then again yours was as well. Try not to speak out against behavior you demonstrate yourself, it doesn't make sense.



Find where I said its not ok to debate matters of race, copy it, then paste it here __________________ I never said or suggested that.


However the fact that you debate racism as much as you do, while 99% of any criticism you have, is in regards to whites, that says something. Especially when you top that off with racist comments about whites, while Ironically you call several white members racist. I dont know call me observant, but I think thats a bit hypocritical.