Full Version: The assassination of Dr Martin Luther King
QUOTE(Martin Luther King)
I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.
Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity.
But 100 years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land.
And so we've come here today to dramatize an appalling condition. In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a cheque. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
Link.Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity.
But 100 years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land.
And so we've come here today to dramatize an appalling condition. In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a cheque. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
Martin Luther King is often invoked in political and racial debates, and not just in the USA. He is usually credited with being the prime mover of the American civil rights campaign and the greatest champion for racial equality ever. Its hard to ignore King when debating race and impossible when debating race in the USA. There can be little doubt that he made a significant impact. Not least perhaps because he was murdered.
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Without a doubt. Dr. King would be amazed by how much progress has been made since he was murdered. He would also be disappointed by how much more progress still has to be made.
Everyone can speculate what a 79-year-old MLK would think about the world today. I believe he would be somewhat disappointed in how "The Dream" has turned into a catchphrase that neither Negroes or Caucasians seem truly dedicated to turning into reality. The recent firestorm of controversy over the Rev. Jeremiah Wright underscores how little White Americans understand Black Americans, but does prove the truth behind the assertion that 10:00 am on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America.
Much of the fault of Negroes languishing in the corners of American society belongs upon his own shoulders. It is always easier to fail than to try and many times Negroes find themselves being told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps by Caucasians who conveniently ignore the Negroes have neither boots nor straps.
Of course, Dr. King was about much more than little black boys and little black girls sitting down with little white girls and little white boys at the lunch table of brotherhood. This is the Hotpockets version of his legacy: sliced, diced, wrapped in pastry and slipped warm into your hand for easy consumption, no muss no fuss. Dr. King advocated societal and economic justice and the equality of opportunity, and only the most mendacious will argue that we have as much – across racial and economic lines – today. This is true in housing and in health care, true in juvenile justice and especially in education, the lynchpin to it all.
Some will argue that what the Movement Warriors were fighting for was not necessarily integration but desegregation, two entirely different things, and that our children do not have to sit in class with white kids to learn, and that parents bear their share of responsibility and that we need to make all schools better for whoever shows up. All of this is true.
Equally true is this: urban public schools serve primarily children of color, and urban public schools, by and large, are failing. This week, a new report shows that 17 of the nation's 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50 percent, with some, like Detroit, as low as 25 percent. http://www.theroot.com/id/45637
The failure of public schools to teach its predominantly African-American students is not merely a lack of drive and initiative by Negroes. It is also a fundamental failing of the system as a whole and control of the system is not in the hands of Negroes.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Probably different from the majority of Americans. To my mind, MLK is the greatest American this nation ever produced. Greater than Washington or Lincoln or Jefferson. I don't deny the accomplishments of those men, but none of them brought about the revolution in America first and then the world by non-violent means and using appeals to reason instead of force. I don't think King was all that different from Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson except for the fact they were White men and Presidents of the United States. They were dissatisfied with the status quo as well and challenged Americans to join them in bringing about a dramatic change. But none of them made the moral appeal to "our better angles" as MLK did.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
I was old enough to remember the night of the assassination of King and my parents had the same kind of disbelief and shock on their faces as I did on September 11th. I wasn't totally aware at 13 how important Dr. King was and the impact he would have on my future.
The faith I have in the ultimate triumph of good over evil, enlightenment over ignorance, peace over violence and hope instead of despair is in no small part due to Martin Luther King Jr.
He gave his life for mine. I truly believe that.
Without a doubt. Dr. King would be amazed by how much progress has been made since he was murdered. He would also be disappointed by how much more progress still has to be made.
Everyone can speculate what a 79-year-old MLK would think about the world today. I believe he would be somewhat disappointed in how "The Dream" has turned into a catchphrase that neither Negroes or Caucasians seem truly dedicated to turning into reality. The recent firestorm of controversy over the Rev. Jeremiah Wright underscores how little White Americans understand Black Americans, but does prove the truth behind the assertion that 10:00 am on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America.
Much of the fault of Negroes languishing in the corners of American society belongs upon his own shoulders. It is always easier to fail than to try and many times Negroes find themselves being told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps by Caucasians who conveniently ignore the Negroes have neither boots nor straps.
Of course, Dr. King was about much more than little black boys and little black girls sitting down with little white girls and little white boys at the lunch table of brotherhood. This is the Hotpockets version of his legacy: sliced, diced, wrapped in pastry and slipped warm into your hand for easy consumption, no muss no fuss. Dr. King advocated societal and economic justice and the equality of opportunity, and only the most mendacious will argue that we have as much – across racial and economic lines – today. This is true in housing and in health care, true in juvenile justice and especially in education, the lynchpin to it all.
Some will argue that what the Movement Warriors were fighting for was not necessarily integration but desegregation, two entirely different things, and that our children do not have to sit in class with white kids to learn, and that parents bear their share of responsibility and that we need to make all schools better for whoever shows up. All of this is true.
Equally true is this: urban public schools serve primarily children of color, and urban public schools, by and large, are failing. This week, a new report shows that 17 of the nation's 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50 percent, with some, like Detroit, as low as 25 percent. http://www.theroot.com/id/45637
The failure of public schools to teach its predominantly African-American students is not merely a lack of drive and initiative by Negroes. It is also a fundamental failing of the system as a whole and control of the system is not in the hands of Negroes.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Probably different from the majority of Americans. To my mind, MLK is the greatest American this nation ever produced. Greater than Washington or Lincoln or Jefferson. I don't deny the accomplishments of those men, but none of them brought about the revolution in America first and then the world by non-violent means and using appeals to reason instead of force. I don't think King was all that different from Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson except for the fact they were White men and Presidents of the United States. They were dissatisfied with the status quo as well and challenged Americans to join them in bringing about a dramatic change. But none of them made the moral appeal to "our better angles" as MLK did.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
I was old enough to remember the night of the assassination of King and my parents had the same kind of disbelief and shock on their faces as I did on September 11th. I wasn't totally aware at 13 how important Dr. King was and the impact he would have on my future.
The faith I have in the ultimate triumph of good over evil, enlightenment over ignorance, peace over violence and hope instead of despair is in no small part due to Martin Luther King Jr.
He gave his life for mine. I truly believe that.
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Although things are not entirely equal, a young person of color has just as much opportunity as anyone else. They may be limited by circumstance (single parent, low income, whatever) but it is not race that keeps them down.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
MLK was one of the giants of the 20th century. He truly changed the world and brought forth the lingering disparities that still existed 100 years after Lincoln freed the slaves. I marvel at how young Dr. King was when he did what he did. That is truly remarkable. He inspired millions and remains a voice for equality that can never be silenced.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
He certainly changed the attitudes in this country. Although Dr. King died four years before I was born, his legacy of judging people by how they act and not what they look like has been a foundation of my world view.
Not to derail, but urban school systems ARE largely in the hands of black leadership. The article mentions Detroit--who's mayor is black. His predecessor was black. His predecessor was black. In fact, Detroit has had black mayors for the past quarter century. The Detroit superintendent, Connie K. Calloway, is black. Detroit schools actually bribed students to attend school on "count day". My home town, Cleveland, has had black mayors for the past 18 years. The mayor controls the schools and the superintendent is also black. Sorry, nighttimer, that dog don't hunt.
Although things are not entirely equal, a young person of color has just as much opportunity as anyone else. They may be limited by circumstance (single parent, low income, whatever) but it is not race that keeps them down.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
MLK was one of the giants of the 20th century. He truly changed the world and brought forth the lingering disparities that still existed 100 years after Lincoln freed the slaves. I marvel at how young Dr. King was when he did what he did. That is truly remarkable. He inspired millions and remains a voice for equality that can never be silenced.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
He certainly changed the attitudes in this country. Although Dr. King died four years before I was born, his legacy of judging people by how they act and not what they look like has been a foundation of my world view.
QUOTE
Equally true is this: urban public schools serve primarily children of color, and urban public schools, by and large, are failing. This week, a new report shows that 17 of the nation's 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50 percent, with some, like Detroit, as low as 25 percent. http://www.theroot.com/id/45637
The failure of public schools to teach its predominantly African-American students is not merely a lack of drive and initiative by Negroes. It is also a fundamental failing of the system as a whole and control of the system is not in the hands of Negroes.
The failure of public schools to teach its predominantly African-American students is not merely a lack of drive and initiative by Negroes. It is also a fundamental failing of the system as a whole and control of the system is not in the hands of Negroes.
Not to derail, but urban school systems ARE largely in the hands of black leadership. The article mentions Detroit--who's mayor is black. His predecessor was black. His predecessor was black. In fact, Detroit has had black mayors for the past quarter century. The Detroit superintendent, Connie K. Calloway, is black. Detroit schools actually bribed students to attend school on "count day". My home town, Cleveland, has had black mayors for the past 18 years. The mayor controls the schools and the superintendent is also black. Sorry, nighttimer, that dog don't hunt.
QUOTE(moif @ Apr 4 2008, 06:57 AM) 
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
1) Only if the "Negro" chooses to be such an exile. The doors are, and have been, wide open.
2) He's the black activist white folks love to eulogize. His vision of being judged by the content of one's character rather than the color of one's skin seems to have little relevance to black activists today, most of whom appear to posit a new "separate but unequal" viewpoint and judge everything through a colored prism. Integration is occurring, I guess, but it is slow. Most blacks I know still speak two languages.
Jefferson did not think freed slaves and whites could co-exist in this nation. We have done reasonably well thus far, considering, but I think the jury is still out. Frankly, as this nation continues to slip in the world and as we Americans fight over a decreasing pie, if we don't learn to act as a successful team, as a powerful national unit, rather than fighting amongst ourselves, then growing scarcity and the stress it causes could end the experiment.
3) I can't say King personally affected me, but his movement and our reaction to it surely did. The South has changed dramatically since my birth, as in fact has the entire nation. One thing hasn't changed: you can still get good barbecue in the South--especially in Memphis. What blacks and whites should have done in 1968 is sit down over some dry ribs and talk it out....
As an aside, I lived in Memphis when King was shot. He came to support a "wildcat" (and illegal) garbage workers strike. Most whites didn't see this as a racial issue, but as a problematic union labor matter, though most garbage workers were black and a significant portion of the black community, and certainly its leaders, saw this as a racial matter.
King came to town once, left, and returned. He initally checked into the nicest hotel in town, the Rivermont, and was roundly criticized for this. He later stayed at the Lorraine Hotel (now a civil rights museum in downtown Memphis), and was shot on the mezzanine of this hotel. Ironically, he would have been a much tougher target at the Rivermont because it was a true hotel, not a motor hotel, and had no other buildings nearby.
I do not think Memphis ever recovered from this event. Memphis has among the best locations in the South--rail hub, river town, a fine airport built early on--but has always lagged behind Atlanta, and now Charlotte and Nashville, in growth and economic development. Although in a number of ways a progressive town in certain racial matters, it has forever been linked to this one incident in 1968, and likely always will be so linked, and is tarred with this brush.
Below is an interesting recent article from the Memphis newspaper's website:
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/...back=1#comments
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Yes and no. Part of the problem is a result of personal responsibility, but part of the problem is also the lack of understanding, as nighttimer suggested. White people, by in large, do not HAVE to understand the 'black experience' (for lack of a more descriptive and all-encompassing term)...that's not to say they don't care, they just simply do not have any need to understand. We all bring our own experiences to the table when reacting and viewing the world and the way society operates. Someone who's lived during the time of the Civil Rights Era will likely have a completely different view of black/white relations than someone who was born in the 80s. Amlord makes an interesting point about opportunity, though. Yes, on paper everyone has the same opportunities and race doesn't always play into that. Often it's more of a class issue. That said, a few decades doesn't quite seem like enough time to fully and completely remove the second-class citizen status. We have to remember that schools were extremely unequal (race-based) not too long ago and desegregation efforts did not change the schools themselves. A parent who attended a poor school is likely to continue the cycle of under-education with his/her children as a result. It's all cyclical. That's not to place blame, but it is recognizing that it's not as simple as 'equal opportunity'.
The 'bootstraps' line is and has always been one of my favorites, too.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
He stood for pretty much everything that people should aspire to be, IMO. MLK was idealistic for sure...his 'dream', he probably knew, was unlikely to happen any time soon, but he still believed in that dream. He spoke with such an intensity and compassion for his fellow human beings. I think the most important thing to take from his work is that we should be kind and compassionate toward our fellow human beings. If everyone lived by this philosophy, this world would truly be a fabulous place. I don't think MLK did it all alone. I think Malcolm X (whom I also admire immensely and wish he was more understood) played a huge role in the civil rights era, but on a different level. I think it was a collective effort (Black Panthers, other civil rights individual activists, etc.). Though not necessarily intentionally, these varying schools of thought about the best way to gain rights and respect actually worked together to accomplish a great deal. I can only surmise, but I don't think any one of those people/groups would have been as powerful without the work of the others. MLK was a huge piece of the puzzle, but certainly not the only piece. He probably had the most impact on non-whites, though, simply because he spoke about the content of one's character and inclusion in that regard.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
Nighttimer summed up my thoughts fabulously...
I may not have lived in his time, but his message and his work were very important to me as a kid/teen and of course I have even more of an appreciation of what he was able to accomplish (and how his words and work paved the path for so many other accomplishments/people) as an adult. His beliefs and struggles and persistence are empowering and inspiring. I was fortunate enough to meet his wife in 1996. She was a fabulous woman...very dedicated to carrying on his legacy.
Yes and no. Part of the problem is a result of personal responsibility, but part of the problem is also the lack of understanding, as nighttimer suggested. White people, by in large, do not HAVE to understand the 'black experience' (for lack of a more descriptive and all-encompassing term)...that's not to say they don't care, they just simply do not have any need to understand. We all bring our own experiences to the table when reacting and viewing the world and the way society operates. Someone who's lived during the time of the Civil Rights Era will likely have a completely different view of black/white relations than someone who was born in the 80s. Amlord makes an interesting point about opportunity, though. Yes, on paper everyone has the same opportunities and race doesn't always play into that. Often it's more of a class issue. That said, a few decades doesn't quite seem like enough time to fully and completely remove the second-class citizen status. We have to remember that schools were extremely unequal (race-based) not too long ago and desegregation efforts did not change the schools themselves. A parent who attended a poor school is likely to continue the cycle of under-education with his/her children as a result. It's all cyclical. That's not to place blame, but it is recognizing that it's not as simple as 'equal opportunity'.
The 'bootstraps' line is and has always been one of my favorites, too.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
He stood for pretty much everything that people should aspire to be, IMO. MLK was idealistic for sure...his 'dream', he probably knew, was unlikely to happen any time soon, but he still believed in that dream. He spoke with such an intensity and compassion for his fellow human beings. I think the most important thing to take from his work is that we should be kind and compassionate toward our fellow human beings. If everyone lived by this philosophy, this world would truly be a fabulous place. I don't think MLK did it all alone. I think Malcolm X (whom I also admire immensely and wish he was more understood) played a huge role in the civil rights era, but on a different level. I think it was a collective effort (Black Panthers, other civil rights individual activists, etc.). Though not necessarily intentionally, these varying schools of thought about the best way to gain rights and respect actually worked together to accomplish a great deal. I can only surmise, but I don't think any one of those people/groups would have been as powerful without the work of the others. MLK was a huge piece of the puzzle, but certainly not the only piece. He probably had the most impact on non-whites, though, simply because he spoke about the content of one's character and inclusion in that regard.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
Nighttimer summed up my thoughts fabulously...
QUOTE
The faith I have in the ultimate triumph of good over evil, enlightenment over ignorance, peace over violence and hope instead of despair is in no small part due to Martin Luther King Jr.
I may not have lived in his time, but his message and his work were very important to me as a kid/teen and of course I have even more of an appreciation of what he was able to accomplish (and how his words and work paved the path for so many other accomplishments/people) as an adult. His beliefs and struggles and persistence are empowering and inspiring. I was fortunate enough to meet his wife in 1996. She was a fabulous woman...very dedicated to carrying on his legacy.
QUOTE(Amlord)
Although things are not entirely equal, a young person of color has just as much opportunity as anyone else. They may be limited by circumstance (single parent, low income, whatever) but it is not race that keeps them down.
You see (and I mean no offense, I'm just using this as an example) this is the type of well-meaning statement that can't withstand any serious scrutiny we are often treated to at these events.
QUOTE(quick)
Only if the "Negro" chooses to be such an exile. The doors are, and have been, wide open.
This too... though it's the more terse version
I must be brief as I've things to do as always so I'll get to the point with a column by Edward Brooke (the first elected black senator) that made some key points.
QUOTE
Former senator Fred R. Harris and I are the two surviving members of President Lyndon Johnson's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders (the formal name of the commission chaired by then-Illinois Gov. Otto Kerner).[...]We urged new investments in jobs, schools and housing. We declared that poverty, inequality and segregation in the racial ghetto had created a destructive environment totally unknown to most white Americans. We avowed that white America had created and maintained the ghetto and that white society condoned it. These were strong words, but we believed that the truth needed telling.
I thought (and believe others did as well) that President Johnson would applaud our painstaking analysis and support our recommendations. But the president who had done so much for civil rights distanced himself from our findings. He did not invite us to the White House for the report's release, as was customary, nor did he embrace its recommendations.[...]Yet, despite the visibility of accomplished African Americans and Hispanics and the progress in race relations that has been made in this country, for America's poor -- those who do not know what health care is because for them it doesn't exist, those for whom prison is a more likely prospect than college, those who have been abandoned to the worst of decaying, crime-ridden urban centers because of the flight of middle-class blacks, whites and Hispanics -- the future may be as bleak as it was for their counterparts in the 1960s.
The core conditions that the Kerner Commission identified as key contributors to civil unrest are as prevalent, if not as virulent, today as they were 40 years ago. The lack of affordable, safe housing and the absence of jobs or hope for the future have confined even more of our citizens to an eerily familiar world that not so long ago gave rise to cities in flames.
Until we root out and eradicate the conditions that cultivate generations in deprivation and despair, we are bound to harvest a bitter crop.
I thought (and believe others did as well) that President Johnson would applaud our painstaking analysis and support our recommendations. But the president who had done so much for civil rights distanced himself from our findings. He did not invite us to the White House for the report's release, as was customary, nor did he embrace its recommendations.[...]Yet, despite the visibility of accomplished African Americans and Hispanics and the progress in race relations that has been made in this country, for America's poor -- those who do not know what health care is because for them it doesn't exist, those for whom prison is a more likely prospect than college, those who have been abandoned to the worst of decaying, crime-ridden urban centers because of the flight of middle-class blacks, whites and Hispanics -- the future may be as bleak as it was for their counterparts in the 1960s.
The core conditions that the Kerner Commission identified as key contributors to civil unrest are as prevalent, if not as virulent, today as they were 40 years ago. The lack of affordable, safe housing and the absence of jobs or hope for the future have confined even more of our citizens to an eerily familiar world that not so long ago gave rise to cities in flames.
Until we root out and eradicate the conditions that cultivate generations in deprivation and despair, we are bound to harvest a bitter crop.
Link
Kerner Commission Wiki
The next quote is so important it's going to get a space by itself. It's my whole point in a nutshell, from another opinion piece.
QUOTE
Since the dawn of the Reagan era, the right has worked tirelessly to cement this paralyzing understanding of race in America. In the post-civil rights era, the argument goes, the playing field has been legally leveled, and racism, thus, is narrowly defined as an individual personality problem rather than a broad, structural concern.
Link
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Even in his day king was, of course, speaking in general so this statment ought to be examined in those terms.
My answer is that it depends. Much of middle and upper class black America have escaped the pit dug for them over hundreds of years of oppression.
Many others, especially the poor, still live in that island built by America for Negros.
Note King didn't say "the Jim Crow South" he said America, all of it.
That's telling.
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 4 2008, 02:41 PM)
My answer is that it depends. Much of middle and upper class black America have escaped the pit dug for them over hundreds of years of oppression.
Many others, especially the poor, still live in that island built by America for Negros.
Many others, especially the poor, still live in that island built by America for Negros.
Hmmm? Did these black success stories start off middle class, or did they earn their way to this point? For that matter, how did you get off the farm (or the island)? The way you put it, this sounds impossible to me. But I digress...
Back to the subject at hand: Life for the poor always sucks.
If you are in Appalachia, the sixth generation of a coal mining family, whose men had a life expectancy of about 30 years as recently as the 1930s and 40s, who were paid in scrip, not U.S. currency, only redeemable at the company store; if you are in the rural Southwest, hier to itinerant farmers, and stuck in a trailer home in New Mexico; or if you are stuck in a deterioriating high rise in Detroit and happen to be black; it stinks.
Of course, what makes being poor so bad is you are around your brothers. Your poor brothers--who have the lowest literacy, the highest crime rate, the highest rate of drug and alcohol use, and the greatest rate of teen prenancy. They trash their homes; they trash their cars; the live in squalor. They do not take responsibility for themselves, color notwithstanding. Many of the poor during the Great Depression did rally because they were down on their luck, not down on any semblence of initiative and self-respect.
Being poor sucks because so many of the poor haven't a clue how to get out of their own way and...I doubt can be "taught", "schooled", or "cajoled" into being anything other than what they are.
Christ said the poor will always be with us. Christ understood the word "Incorrigible" [or its Hebrew equivalent]. Do you?
Perhaps another way to put it would be this--we have food stamps, free school breakfasts and lunches, free school, Head Start, subsidized housing, Medicare, AFDC (or its successor), and dozens of more federal, state and local programs for the poor. What is it we are not doing that is going to right the ship?
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Most of us are languishing in exile in some form or another. Explicit legal forms of exile or isolation, namely Jim Crow laws, have been eradicated and that's a blessing. As to de facto forms of exiling blacks I leave that to black testimony. From what I hear it is still a problem. How much of the problem is primarily class based and how much is race based I am not knowledgeable enough to sort out. I wonder at white folks who purport to know more about the condition blacks face than they probably would know about conditions in their own family. One might think at a minimum they would retain a spirit of inquiry.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
It would be wrong to make King the singular personification of the civil rights movement as it had so many strands. I think King's nonviolence and highly moral and civilized pastoral demeanor took some of the scariness out of it for a lot of white people and even gave civil rights demands broader legitimacy. In the early days the demands were basic and simple and hard not to justify. The right to ride in an unsegregated bus, use an unsegregated bathroom, sit at an unsegregated lunch counter, go to your neighborhood unsegregated school(Well in some cases orders to bus across town complicated the issue) and of course the king of civil rights issues the one critical to all the others, the right to vote, amazingly still challenged in many states 100 years practically after the civil war. Revelations in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 show us that the voting challenge still exists in some black neighborhoods.
Once we entered into the era of affirmative action and the charge of informal institutional racism then the black and white clarity of the issues dimmed and a whole complicated politics around race has emerged. Enter Pastor Wright and you can see part of that complicated politics being injected front and center into the presidential election.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
On a personal level very definitely because I had friends who were activists in the civil rights movement. The 60s were a vibrant and interesting time as compared to the somewhat sterile McCarthyite 50s. The change in the racial climate had a lot to do with that.
Most of us are languishing in exile in some form or another. Explicit legal forms of exile or isolation, namely Jim Crow laws, have been eradicated and that's a blessing. As to de facto forms of exiling blacks I leave that to black testimony. From what I hear it is still a problem. How much of the problem is primarily class based and how much is race based I am not knowledgeable enough to sort out. I wonder at white folks who purport to know more about the condition blacks face than they probably would know about conditions in their own family. One might think at a minimum they would retain a spirit of inquiry.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
It would be wrong to make King the singular personification of the civil rights movement as it had so many strands. I think King's nonviolence and highly moral and civilized pastoral demeanor took some of the scariness out of it for a lot of white people and even gave civil rights demands broader legitimacy. In the early days the demands were basic and simple and hard not to justify. The right to ride in an unsegregated bus, use an unsegregated bathroom, sit at an unsegregated lunch counter, go to your neighborhood unsegregated school(Well in some cases orders to bus across town complicated the issue) and of course the king of civil rights issues the one critical to all the others, the right to vote, amazingly still challenged in many states 100 years practically after the civil war. Revelations in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 show us that the voting challenge still exists in some black neighborhoods.
Once we entered into the era of affirmative action and the charge of informal institutional racism then the black and white clarity of the issues dimmed and a whole complicated politics around race has emerged. Enter Pastor Wright and you can see part of that complicated politics being injected front and center into the presidential election.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
On a personal level very definitely because I had friends who were activists in the civil rights movement. The 60s were a vibrant and interesting time as compared to the somewhat sterile McCarthyite 50s. The change in the racial climate had a lot to do with that.
One person for whom the life and times and death of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. provoked decidedly mixed feelings wants to be the next President of the United States. Senator John McCain.
McCain showed up in Memphis last week to say a few kind words about Dr. King. He also said he regretted his earlier opposition to the Martin Luther King Jr., holiday.
Which is worth looking back at how McCain's position "evolved."
Tomorrow Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., will honor Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. by speaking in Memphis on the 40th anniversary of King's assassination.
He will no doubt sound a bit different than he did in April 1987, when McCain was interviewed by USA Today about his five and a half years as a P.O.W.
Could you keep up with what was going on in the world? He was asked.
"They never gave us any meaningful news," McCain said. "They told us the day that Martin Luther King was shot, they told us the day that Bobby Kennedy was shot, but they never bothered to tell us about the moon shot. So it was certainly selected news."
Surely the John McCain of 2008 would not hold that the assassinations of King and Kennedy were not "meaningful." link
But McCain recalls things a little differently now.
During a press conference in Jacksonville, Florida, Sen. John McCain reflected on the holiday. McCain lived in Jacksonville for two years with his first wife and three children after being released by the North Vietnamese after five and a half years as a prisoner of war.
"I was in prison when they announced over the loudspeaker in my cell, I was living by myself, that Dr. Martin Luther King had been assassinated. They always told us the very bad news, but somehow avoided telling us minor events such as landing a man on the moon. I didn't find that out until a couple years after the event itself. I didn't know Dr. King. I was a member of the military. Obviously I admire him as all Americans do. But I did have the great honor of getting to know Congressman John Lewis. In fact, I've taken my children to meet him, because I think John Lewis epitomizes the struggle that continues to this day to achieve full equality in America. Congressman John Lewis is a role model to me in many respects." (original emphasis)
link2
As regards the King holiday, McCain was against it before he was for it. But don't call it a "flip-flop." He says his position, "evolved."
McCain Voted Against Creating Martin Luther King Holiday. In 1983, McCain voted against a motion to suspend the rules and pass a bill to designate the third Monday of every January as a federal holiday in honor of the late civil rights leader, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The motion passed 89-77. [HR 3706, Vote 289, 8/2/83; CQ 1983]
McCain Said His Position Has 'Evolved.' During a 2000 interview, McCain compared his evolution on this issue to former Arizona Sen. Barry Goldwater.
"I believe that Barry Goldwater, to start with, regretted his vote on the 1964 Civil Rights Act," McCain said. 'I think that Barry grew, like all of us grow and evolve. In 1983, when I was brand-new in the Congress, I voted against the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King. That was a mistake, OK? And later I had the chance to ... help fight for ... the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King as a holiday in my state."[ www.salon.com 4/18/00; Accessed 4/2/08]
Arizona Governor Rescinded Martin Luther King Jr. Day. In 1987, One of newly elected Governor Evan Mecham’s first acts in office was to rescind Arizona’s recognition of the Martin Luther King Holiday. "Mecham strikes many voters as a simpleminded ideologue who is giving a bad name to the nation's second-fastest-growing state. After rescinding the Jan. 19 holiday honoring Martin Luther King Jr., Mecham defended the use of the term "pickaninnies" for blacks.' [Time 11/9/87]
McCain Said He Thought Governor Was Correct in His Decision According to the Huffington Post, "In 1983, McCain voted against passing a bill to designate the third Monday of every January as a federal holiday in honor of King. Four years later, then-Arizona Governor Evan Mecham rescinded Martin Luther King Day as a state holiday, saying it had been established through an illegal executive order by his Democratic predecessor. McCain said he thought Mecham was correct in his decision." [Sam Stein, Huffington Post, 4/1/08] link3
But now that he's running for president (again), McCain has seen the error of his ways:
Sometimes the most radical thing is to be confronted with our own standards--- to be asked simply that we live up to the principles we profess. Even in this most idealistic of nations, we do not always take kindly to being reminded of what more we can do, or how much better we can be, or who else can be included in the promise of America. We can be slow as well to give greatness its due, a mistake I made myself long ago when I voted against a federal holiday in memory of Dr. King. I was wrong and eventually realized that, in time to give full support for a state holiday in Arizona. We can all be a little late sometimes in doing the right thing, and Dr. King understood this about his fellow Americans. But he knew as well that in the long term, confidence in the reasonability and good heart of America is always well placed. And always, that was his method in word and action -- to remind us of who we are and what we believe. His arguments were unanswerable and they were familiar, the case always resting on the writings of the Founders, the teachings of the prophets, and the Word of the Lord. link4
Nice to know that even after 70 years of life, John McCain is still capable of "evolving" and reversing an earlier poor decision.
Or is that just spinning to not look so damn intolerant?
McCain showed up in Memphis last week to say a few kind words about Dr. King. He also said he regretted his earlier opposition to the Martin Luther King Jr., holiday.
Which is worth looking back at how McCain's position "evolved."
Tomorrow Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., will honor Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. by speaking in Memphis on the 40th anniversary of King's assassination.
He will no doubt sound a bit different than he did in April 1987, when McCain was interviewed by USA Today about his five and a half years as a P.O.W.
Could you keep up with what was going on in the world? He was asked.
"They never gave us any meaningful news," McCain said. "They told us the day that Martin Luther King was shot, they told us the day that Bobby Kennedy was shot, but they never bothered to tell us about the moon shot. So it was certainly selected news."
Surely the John McCain of 2008 would not hold that the assassinations of King and Kennedy were not "meaningful." link
But McCain recalls things a little differently now.
During a press conference in Jacksonville, Florida, Sen. John McCain reflected on the holiday. McCain lived in Jacksonville for two years with his first wife and three children after being released by the North Vietnamese after five and a half years as a prisoner of war.
"I was in prison when they announced over the loudspeaker in my cell, I was living by myself, that Dr. Martin Luther King had been assassinated. They always told us the very bad news, but somehow avoided telling us minor events such as landing a man on the moon. I didn't find that out until a couple years after the event itself. I didn't know Dr. King. I was a member of the military. Obviously I admire him as all Americans do. But I did have the great honor of getting to know Congressman John Lewis. In fact, I've taken my children to meet him, because I think John Lewis epitomizes the struggle that continues to this day to achieve full equality in America. Congressman John Lewis is a role model to me in many respects." (original emphasis)
link2
As regards the King holiday, McCain was against it before he was for it. But don't call it a "flip-flop." He says his position, "evolved."
McCain Voted Against Creating Martin Luther King Holiday. In 1983, McCain voted against a motion to suspend the rules and pass a bill to designate the third Monday of every January as a federal holiday in honor of the late civil rights leader, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The motion passed 89-77. [HR 3706, Vote 289, 8/2/83; CQ 1983]
McCain Said His Position Has 'Evolved.' During a 2000 interview, McCain compared his evolution on this issue to former Arizona Sen. Barry Goldwater.
"I believe that Barry Goldwater, to start with, regretted his vote on the 1964 Civil Rights Act," McCain said. 'I think that Barry grew, like all of us grow and evolve. In 1983, when I was brand-new in the Congress, I voted against the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King. That was a mistake, OK? And later I had the chance to ... help fight for ... the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King as a holiday in my state."[ www.salon.com 4/18/00; Accessed 4/2/08]
Arizona Governor Rescinded Martin Luther King Jr. Day. In 1987, One of newly elected Governor Evan Mecham’s first acts in office was to rescind Arizona’s recognition of the Martin Luther King Holiday. "Mecham strikes many voters as a simpleminded ideologue who is giving a bad name to the nation's second-fastest-growing state. After rescinding the Jan. 19 holiday honoring Martin Luther King Jr., Mecham defended the use of the term "pickaninnies" for blacks.' [Time 11/9/87]
McCain Said He Thought Governor Was Correct in His Decision According to the Huffington Post, "In 1983, McCain voted against passing a bill to designate the third Monday of every January as a federal holiday in honor of King. Four years later, then-Arizona Governor Evan Mecham rescinded Martin Luther King Day as a state holiday, saying it had been established through an illegal executive order by his Democratic predecessor. McCain said he thought Mecham was correct in his decision." [Sam Stein, Huffington Post, 4/1/08] link3
But now that he's running for president (again), McCain has seen the error of his ways:
Sometimes the most radical thing is to be confronted with our own standards--- to be asked simply that we live up to the principles we profess. Even in this most idealistic of nations, we do not always take kindly to being reminded of what more we can do, or how much better we can be, or who else can be included in the promise of America. We can be slow as well to give greatness its due, a mistake I made myself long ago when I voted against a federal holiday in memory of Dr. King. I was wrong and eventually realized that, in time to give full support for a state holiday in Arizona. We can all be a little late sometimes in doing the right thing, and Dr. King understood this about his fellow Americans. But he knew as well that in the long term, confidence in the reasonability and good heart of America is always well placed. And always, that was his method in word and action -- to remind us of who we are and what we believe. His arguments were unanswerable and they were familiar, the case always resting on the writings of the Founders, the teachings of the prophets, and the Word of the Lord. link4
Nice to know that even after 70 years of life, John McCain is still capable of "evolving" and reversing an earlier poor decision.
Or is that just spinning to not look so damn intolerant?
I don't think I'll ever understand the "issue" of the MLK Day being a holiday or the "issue" that some people opposed it.
Remember, in 1983, it was a mere 15 years after the Reverend was tragically killed. What other American has been so honored by having his birthday made a holiday? Did we have a Lincoln Day or a Washington Day so soon after their death? Lincoln's birthday became a holiday in Illinois 50 years after he was shot. There has never been a federal Lincoln's birthday holiday. Washington's birthday is an official federal holiday and it became law a mere 80 some odd years after his death.
My guess is that MLK day, if fully implemented, will become another "hey, we have a day off!" soon enough. The gesture of making someone's birthday a holiday is empty.
Remember, in 1983, it was a mere 15 years after the Reverend was tragically killed. What other American has been so honored by having his birthday made a holiday? Did we have a Lincoln Day or a Washington Day so soon after their death? Lincoln's birthday became a holiday in Illinois 50 years after he was shot. There has never been a federal Lincoln's birthday holiday. Washington's birthday is an official federal holiday and it became law a mere 80 some odd years after his death.
My guess is that MLK day, if fully implemented, will become another "hey, we have a day off!" soon enough. The gesture of making someone's birthday a holiday is empty.
QUOTE(quick)
If you are in Appalachia, the sixth generation of a coal mining family, whose men had a life expectancy of about 30 years as recently as the 1930s and 40s, who were paid in scrip, not U.S. currency, only redeemable at the company store; if you are in the rural Southwest, hier to itinerant farmers, and stuck in a trailer home in New Mexico; or if you are stuck in a deterioriating high rise in Detroit and happen to be black; it stinks.
Agreed.
..but in the case of blacks there were unique barriers imposed in excess of what other ethnicities had to deal with. As a result they are still relatively behind.
I'm an advocate of easing poverty for everyone, it's just that blacks in particular have a compelling case that their poverty is for the most part, not their fault or the fault of random natural processes.
QUOTE(quick)
Of course, what makes being poor so bad is you are around your brothers. Your poor brothers--who have the lowest literacy, the highest crime rate, the highest rate of drug and alcohol use, and the greatest rate of teen prenancy. They trash their homes; they trash their cars; the live in squalor. They do not take responsibility for themselves, color notwithstanding. Many of the poor during the Great Depression did rally because they were down on their luck, not down on any semblence of initiative and self-respect.
Chicken or the egg.
The behavior follows the poverty not the other way around.
QUOTE(quick)
Being s poor sucks because so many of the poor haven't a clue how to get out of their own way and...I doubt can be "taught", "schooled", or "cajoled" into being anything other than what they are.
This was on of the same arguments that defended feudalism and slavery.
It was proven resoundingly wrong with the advent of public schooling and other efforts that essentially created the American middle class.
The "lower classes" are always too brutish to advance... until they aren't.
QUOTE(quick)
Perhaps another way to put it would be this--we have food stamps, free school breakfasts and lunches, free school, Head Start, subsidized housing, Medicare, AFDC (or its successor), and dozens of more federal, state and local programs for the poor. What is it we are not doing that is going to right the ship?
Excellent question. All of these programs have done plenty to make this country a better place to live, but many of them need tweaking or overhauls.
I point to two in particular
1.) Deconcentrating poverty using mixed-income housing strategies.
2.) Unburdening schools in poor neighborhoods by giving incentives for qualified teachers to work in failing schools and using state and federal funding to equalize per student spending.
QUOTE(Amlord)
don't think I'll ever understand the "issue" of the MLK Day being a holiday or the "issue" that some people opposed it.
It was what these people actually said when making that point that upset so many people. McCain's dismissive attitude towards to assassination for instance.
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 7 2008, 09:13 AM)
QUOTE(Amlord)
don't think I'll ever understand the "issue" of the MLK Day being a holiday or the "issue" that some people opposed it.
It was what these people actually said when making that point that upset so many people. McCain's dismissive attitude towards to assassination for instance.
Well, McCain probably found it a bit hard to keep up with news from back home. The Hanoi Hilton's cable service sucks. When exactly was McCain "dismissive" towards assassination?
QUOTE(Amlord @ Apr 7 2008, 08:38 AM)
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 7 2008, 09:13 AM)
QUOTE(Amlord)
don't think I'll ever understand the "issue" of the MLK Day being a holiday or the "issue" that some people opposed it.
It was what these people actually said when making that point that upset so many people. McCain's dismissive attitude towards to assassination for instance.
Well, McCain probably found it a bit hard to keep up with news from back home. The Hanoi Hilton's cable service sucks. When exactly was McCain "dismissive" towards assassination?
nightttimer just provided that quote.
QUOTE(McCain @ 1987)
"They never gave us any meaningful news," McCain said. "They told us the day that Martin Luther King was shot, they told us the day that Bobby Kennedy was shot, but they never bothered to tell us about the moon shot. So it was certainly selected news."
Link
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 7 2008, 08:13 AM)
QUOTE(quick)
Of course, what makes being poor so bad is you are around your brothers. Your poor brothers--who have the lowest literacy, the highest crime rate, the highest rate of drug and alcohol use, and the greatest rate of teen prenancy. They trash their homes; they trash their cars; the live in squalor. They do not take responsibility for themselves, color notwithstanding. Many of the poor during the Great Depression did rally because they were down on their luck, not down on any semblence of initiative and self-respect.
Chicken or the egg.
The behavior follows the poverty not the other way around.
I agree with this...but how do you break the cycle? By changing the behaviour. You can't change the circumstances by themselves, the behaviour must change first. That's what gets people out of the poverty that causes these other things. In this case, it's not a chicken or egg issue...it's enough chicks and chickens deciding to leave the barnyard. Which seems to get back to where we always end up on these discussions...I think people can get out of the cycle, and you look at the mass phenomenon. The problem, IMHO, with that viewpoint is that it lets the masses use their circumstances as a crutch, thereby impeding progress. Rather than telling people that they can't overcome...wouldn't it be better to show them they can? If that were the more pervasive message, then the cycle would begin to break. If people are constantly told they can't do something, then they'll stop trying, and then fixing the other issues (schools, etc) won't be possible either.
QUOTE(Hobbes @ Apr 7 2008, 08:51 AM)
I agree with this...but how do you break the cycle? By changing the behaviour. You can't change the circumstances by themselves, the behaviour must change first. That's what gets people out of the poverty that causes these other things. In this case, it's not a chicken or egg issue...it's enough chicks and chickens deciding to leave the barnyard. Which seems to get back to where we always end up on these discussions...I think people can get out of the cycle, and you look at the mass phenomenon. The problem, IMHO, with that viewpoint is that it lets the masses use their circumstances as a crutch, thereby impeding progress. Rather than telling people that they can't overcome...wouldn't it be better to show them they can? If that were the more pervasive message, then the cycle would begin to break. If people are constantly told they can't do something, then they'll stop trying, and then fixing the other issues (schools, etc) won't be possible either.
It's not really the behavior that keeps people poor, at least not on a demographic scale. It's infrastructure.
The poor and blacks in particular aren't at all lacking in motivation... but when they take their first wide-eyed steps into their schools or take a look around their neighborhoods their opportunities are clearly limited, not by their actions but as a result of policy decisions.
This isn't a problem of hope, it's a problem of how.
People are People, rich or poor. It's the situation on the ground that makes the difference.
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 7 2008, 09:59 AM)
QUOTE(Hobbes @ Apr 7 2008, 08:51 AM)
I agree with this...but how do you break the cycle? By changing the behaviour. You can't change the circumstances by themselves, the behaviour must change first. That's what gets people out of the poverty that causes these other things. In this case, it's not a chicken or egg issue...it's enough chicks and chickens deciding to leave the barnyard. Which seems to get back to where we always end up on these discussions...I think people can get out of the cycle, and you look at the mass phenomenon. The problem, IMHO, with that viewpoint is that it lets the masses use their circumstances as a crutch, thereby impeding progress. Rather than telling people that they can't overcome...wouldn't it be better to show them they can? If that were the more pervasive message, then the cycle would begin to break. If people are constantly told they can't do something, then they'll stop trying, and then fixing the other issues (schools, etc) won't be possible either.
It's not really the behavior that keeps people poor, at least not on a demographic scale. It's infrastructure.
The poor and blacks in particular aren't at all lacking in motivation... but when they take their first wide-eyed steps into their schools or take a look around their neighborhoods their opportunities are clearly limited, not by their actions but as a result of policy decisions.
This isn't a problem of hope, it's a problem of how.
People are People, rich or poor. It's the situation on the ground that makes the difference.
"They look around their neighborhood [at] their opportunties..."
In other words, they are limiting themselves. I moved away from the lower middle class neighborhood that I grew up in (and my parents still live in) and never looked back. You are correct: there is no future if you limit yourself to what is in the past or present.
It is a lack of initiative, which is cyclical. Most people are inspired (or held back) by the attitude their parents have. Look at any example of a poor person that "made it" and you'll probably find an older relative that inspired them.
As far as your "mixed income" housing, I don't think it will ever happen. There is a stereotype about the poor, including crime and behavioral stereotypes, which prevent people from wanting to live near the poor. "Middle class flight" will follow. It is simply human nature.
Missing the point.
Of course it's possible to succeed despite the barriers. It's always has been... today, fifty years ago, during Jim Crow even pre-emancipation.
The issue is not neither it's possible it's the complete picture of what people have to fight through to have the same opportunities many take for granted. It's an issue of probability.
There is no hope of understanding this issue unless you transcend the individual scale and understand the social dynamic.
Heck it would be possible to succeed without public schooling or patent protection or police departments, should we get rid of those and expect people to adjust their attitudes?
So the poor need to change their mindset but we can't expect any changes form anyone else?
Of course it's possible to succeed despite the barriers. It's always has been... today, fifty years ago, during Jim Crow even pre-emancipation.
The issue is not neither it's possible it's the complete picture of what people have to fight through to have the same opportunities many take for granted. It's an issue of probability.
There is no hope of understanding this issue unless you transcend the individual scale and understand the social dynamic.
Heck it would be possible to succeed without public schooling or patent protection or police departments, should we get rid of those and expect people to adjust their attitudes?
QUOTE(Amlord)
As far as your "mixed income" housing, I don't think it will ever happen. There is a stereotype about the poor, including crime and behavioral stereotypes, which prevent people from wanting to live near the poor. "Middle class flight" will follow. It is simply human nature.
So the poor need to change their mindset but we can't expect any changes form anyone else?
As I'm frequently accused of being a total Barack Obama suck-up, I present this in the interest of being "fair and balanced."
I want to say that I'm deeply disappointed that my dear brother Barack Obama decided not to go pay tribute and lay his wreath for the great Martin Luther King, Jr. That brother Martin's profound love and deep sacrifice for black people, America and humanity is in no way reducible to political calculations, even for the campaign for presidency. That Martin Luther King Jr.'s deep commitment to unarmed truth and unconditional love can in no way be subject to strategies for access to political power. Hence, I have a very deep disagreement with my dear brother, Barack Obama -- in this case, commitment to truth is in tension with the quest for power.
That's Dr. Cornel West, a Obama supporter, who went public with his discontent with Obama's decision to campaign in Indiana rather than go to Memphis (as Clinton and McCain did) to pay his respects during the 40th anniversary of King's assassination. That wasn't exactly a profile in courage by Obama.
My former colleague at PoliticallyBlack.com, Faye Anderson turned up the heat on Obama on her blog:
I spent most of last week in Memphis, where I paid tribute to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the 40th anniversary of his assassination. Many traveled from across the country, including John McCain who apologized for opposing the King Holiday bill.
Hillary Clinton was in Memphis to pay her respects and speak before the Church of God in Christ Pan African Leadership Summit at Mason Temple. She also took a tour of the National Civil Rights Museum.
Barack Obama was conspicuous by his absence. Frankly, I’m bothered that Obama didn’t bother to show up. Dr. King paid the ultimate sacrifice so that African Americans could get to the “mountaintop,” but Obama could not sacrifice a few hours of campaigning.
If Obama doesn’t stand with blacks as we honor an American icon, who’s to say he’ll stand up for black Americans if he gets to the Oval Office? link
Good question, Faye. Obama hasn't heard the last word on this.
I want to say that I'm deeply disappointed that my dear brother Barack Obama decided not to go pay tribute and lay his wreath for the great Martin Luther King, Jr. That brother Martin's profound love and deep sacrifice for black people, America and humanity is in no way reducible to political calculations, even for the campaign for presidency. That Martin Luther King Jr.'s deep commitment to unarmed truth and unconditional love can in no way be subject to strategies for access to political power. Hence, I have a very deep disagreement with my dear brother, Barack Obama -- in this case, commitment to truth is in tension with the quest for power.
That's Dr. Cornel West, a Obama supporter, who went public with his discontent with Obama's decision to campaign in Indiana rather than go to Memphis (as Clinton and McCain did) to pay his respects during the 40th anniversary of King's assassination. That wasn't exactly a profile in courage by Obama.
My former colleague at PoliticallyBlack.com, Faye Anderson turned up the heat on Obama on her blog:
I spent most of last week in Memphis, where I paid tribute to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on the 40th anniversary of his assassination. Many traveled from across the country, including John McCain who apologized for opposing the King Holiday bill.
Hillary Clinton was in Memphis to pay her respects and speak before the Church of God in Christ Pan African Leadership Summit at Mason Temple. She also took a tour of the National Civil Rights Museum.
Barack Obama was conspicuous by his absence. Frankly, I’m bothered that Obama didn’t bother to show up. Dr. King paid the ultimate sacrifice so that African Americans could get to the “mountaintop,” but Obama could not sacrifice a few hours of campaigning.
If Obama doesn’t stand with blacks as we honor an American icon, who’s to say he’ll stand up for black Americans if he gets to the Oval Office? link
Good question, Faye. Obama hasn't heard the last word on this.
nighttimer
Did you just answer.. ((are African Americans still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?))
by saying....... without a doubt?
You acknowledge that progress has been made yet aparently not near enough to pull African Americans out of being exiled from their own land as well as languishing in the shadows. Thats heavy stuff man, you do know its 2008, and not 1808 right? Surely your not speaking to me from the past, having built yourself a time machine I hope. That would make sense of a comment such as that.
I seriously do not know how that question can be answered by saying (Without a Doubt) while keeping a straight face. Tell us about how Condoleezza Rice, Lionel Richie, Barack Obama, or Roy Jones Jr. are finding themselves an exile in their own land?
Better yet how about O. J. Simpson, he seems to be doing quite well for having murdered two people, then writing a book about how he did it. The system sure didn't take advantage of him based on his skin color, hell thats for sure. In fact this is a situation where the opposite is true, Based on his skin color, he used the system. He cried racism so many times that nobody takes him serious at this point, but he got away with murder I believe in part because of his race. Naturally you will probably call that nonsense.
Point is you seem to be stuck so much on this guilt trip of the past, that you don't even realize that today an African American is just as likely to benefit from their skin color than having that be a disadvantage. If an African American feels like a second class citizen because perhaps this person lives in the ghetto, with no job, I hate to say it but thats their fault and their problem, and thats it. This is America, its not Afghanistan and if the African Americans who don't excel in life, spent more time fixing their problems than inventing reasons to point fingers maybe they would be in better shape, cheers
QUOTE
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Without a doubt. Dr. King would be amazed by how much progress has been made since he was murdered. He would also be disappointed by how much more progress still has to be made.
Without a doubt. Dr. King would be amazed by how much progress has been made since he was murdered. He would also be disappointed by how much more progress still has to be made.
Did you just answer.. ((are African Americans still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?))
by saying....... without a doubt?
You acknowledge that progress has been made yet aparently not near enough to pull African Americans out of being exiled from their own land as well as languishing in the shadows. Thats heavy stuff man, you do know its 2008, and not 1808 right? Surely your not speaking to me from the past, having built yourself a time machine I hope. That would make sense of a comment such as that.
I seriously do not know how that question can be answered by saying (Without a Doubt) while keeping a straight face. Tell us about how Condoleezza Rice, Lionel Richie, Barack Obama, or Roy Jones Jr. are finding themselves an exile in their own land?
Better yet how about O. J. Simpson, he seems to be doing quite well for having murdered two people, then writing a book about how he did it. The system sure didn't take advantage of him based on his skin color, hell thats for sure. In fact this is a situation where the opposite is true, Based on his skin color, he used the system. He cried racism so many times that nobody takes him serious at this point, but he got away with murder I believe in part because of his race. Naturally you will probably call that nonsense.
Point is you seem to be stuck so much on this guilt trip of the past, that you don't even realize that today an African American is just as likely to benefit from their skin color than having that be a disadvantage. If an African American feels like a second class citizen because perhaps this person lives in the ghetto, with no job, I hate to say it but thats their fault and their problem, and thats it. This is America, its not Afghanistan and if the African Americans who don't excel in life, spent more time fixing their problems than inventing reasons to point fingers maybe they would be in better shape, cheers
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 7 2008, 09:13 AM)
I'm an advocate of easing poverty for everyone, it's just that blacks in particular have a compelling case that their poverty is for the most part, not their fault or the fault of random natural processes.
The only way to "ease poverty for everyone" is to steal from the haves. Not good, and not appropriate under our Const or in light of our way of life. Just plain wrong.
All we should do--in reality all we can do--is to remove basic legal barriers to advancement, which we have done. If that doesn't work, so be it. Not everyone is going to be an achiever.
Hey, look, I've been to WalMart. I've seen lots of folks inside this great American melting pot who couldn't get out of their own way with a map; who couldn't spell "cat" if you spotted them a "c" and a "t" (with due credit to "Hollywood" Henderson).
Our church spends lots of time and money helping poor in our area and elsewhere in the world, but even the most involved have no illusions. Some people can be taught, but some will always be sitting there, waiting for the next handout.
"Freedom" in the USA does not mean freedom from want; it means freedom to succeed--or to fail--on one's own terms, as it should. Most Americans happily lend a helping hand, but the poor will always be with us.
Dr. King helped remove the legal barriers, to his credit. It is time to move on.
QUOTE(net2007 @ Apr 8 2008, 10:37 AM)
nighttimer
Did you just answer.. ((are African Americans still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?))
by saying....... without a doubt?
You acknowledge that progress has been made yet aparently not near enough to pull African Americans out of being exiled from their own land as well as languishing in the shadows. Thats heavy stuff man, you do know its 2008, and not 1808 right? Surely your not speaking to me from the past, having built yourself a time machine I hope. That would make sense of a comment such as that.
QUOTE
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Without a doubt. Dr. King would be amazed by how much progress has been made since he was murdered. He would also be disappointed by how much more progress still has to be made.
Without a doubt. Dr. King would be amazed by how much progress has been made since he was murdered. He would also be disappointed by how much more progress still has to be made.
Did you just answer.. ((are African Americans still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?))
by saying....... without a doubt?
You acknowledge that progress has been made yet aparently not near enough to pull African Americans out of being exiled from their own land as well as languishing in the shadows. Thats heavy stuff man, you do know its 2008, and not 1808 right? Surely your not speaking to me from the past, having built yourself a time machine I hope. That would make sense of a comment such as that.
I know you can't spell worth a damn, net2007, but can you read?
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Apr 4 2008, 09:47 AM)
Equally true is this: urban public schools serve primarily children of color, and urban public schools, by and large, are failing. This week, a new report shows that 17 of the nation's 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50 percent, with some, like Detroit, as low as 25 percent.
Why should I care what makes sense to you? You're the one that always says, "I'm open-minded" and "I try to get a variety of points of views."
Yeah, sure you do. Right before you fall back into standard, onerous right-wing crap. I give you a fact. You come back with your vapid opinion. What kind of debating is that?
QUOTE
I seriously do not know how that question can be answered by saying (Without a Doubt) while keeping a straight face. Tell us about how Condoleezza Rice, Lionel Richie, Barack Obama, or Roy Jones Jr. are finding themselves an exile in their own land?
Would that be the same Condi Rice who said a few weeks ago racism was a "birth defect" of America? Would that be the same Barack Obama who gave a magnificent speech on race and racism in America and called for the beginning of a renewed dialog on the matter---a call you seem to be deaf to?
You name a handful of Blacks that have achieved a bit of fame and fortune and you think that sums up the general state for 13 million others? Stop it and stop wasting my time with
this weak crap.
QUOTE
Better yet how about O. J. Simpson, he seems to be doing quite well for having murdered two people, then writing a book about how he did it. The system sure didn't take advantage of him based on his skin color, hell thats for sure. In fact this is a situation where the opposite is true, Based on his skin color, he used the system. He cried racism so many times that nobody takes him serious at this point, but he got away with murder I believe in part because of his race. Naturally you will probably call that nonsense.
Actually, even dragging the O.J. Simpson murder trial into a discussion about the assassination of Dr. King and the subsequent state of African-Americas is so asinine and pointless as to be unworthy of any response.
QUOTE
Point is you seem to be stuck so much on this guilt trip of the past, that you don't even realize that today an African American is just as likely to benefit from their skin color than having that be a disadvantage. If an African American feels like a second class citizen because perhaps this person lives in the ghetto, with no job, I hate to say it but thats their fault and their problem, and thats it. This is America, its not Afghanistan and if the African Americans who don't excel in life, spent more time fixing their problems than inventing reasons to point fingers maybe they would be in better shape, cheers
I cannot WAIT to find out how exactly African-Americans benefit from their skin color! Please share me with me this vital information so I can go back and tell every Black person I know.
But while I'm waiting for your sermon on the mount, lemme clue you into something net2007. You don't have to be an African-American living in the ghetto with no job to be treated like a second-class citizen. All you have to be is a well-dressed Black businessperson trying to hail a cab in Times Square around 5:00 in the afternoon and you'll find out quick, fast and in a hurry how little juice you have with a taxi driver who sails right past the smartly-dressed sister with the briefcase to pick up the White tourist with the "I Love New York" T-shirt.
Everyone's opinion is entitled to be respected. You have given me zero reasons to take yours seriously.
QUOTE(quick)
The only way to "ease poverty for everyone" is to steal from the haves. Not good, and not appropriate under our Const or in light of our way of life. Just plain wrong.
Stealing? Is that what we're calling taxes now?
Here is where you step outside reason and into value judgments. I disagree on principle. We can decide what to do with our tax revenues through the democratic process.
It's not stealing to pay taxes for things you don't agree with personally.
QUOTE(quick)
All we should do--in reality all we can do--is to remove basic legal barriers to advancement, which we have done. If that doesn't work, so be it. Not everyone is going to be an achiever.
That's a quaint view of public policy.
Legal barriers aren't the only issue. Issue of public education, health, safety, and infrastructure are all critical to economic opportunities as well.
From protective tariffs to common schools, to the Homestead Act and the Freeway system government action has played an enormous role in making this country the richest on earth.
It is simply an irrational sort of self-righteousness that forms the basis of this "they brought it on themselves" argument. If it were true the American middle class would never have reached the size it is now.
Remove barriers and the vast majority of the poor will succeed.
nighttimer
Lol didn't you just recently make a post that you said would be fair and balanced yourself? Or something of that nature, you want the quote? I pay close attention to what some of the regulars say here, for reasons like this. In fact this isn't the first time you cracked on me saying, I try to be open minded , next time I'll copy and paste that quote of yours.
To be honest I think I'm more fair than some people tend to be, but I admit to my biases and even my prejudices, because I surely have them. Want specifics? Ok, my opinion in politics leans to the right although I do go issue by issue. Regarding racism, I'm proud to be Caucasian, well technically I'm 50% Cajun, 25% Irish, and 25% Italian. My mom is 100% Cajun with an olive complexion, but I get my looks more from my father. However I suppose if I were categorized as either black or white, as broad as those descriptions are, Id say I'm white. Although my friend Ricky Sanchez thinks I'm black, lol.
Anyway I see races for their various qualities, as well as shortcomings. Nobody is perfect, but I have never felt responsible for the state of African Americans today, nor do I think white Americans as a whole are primarily responsible. There are of course persisting cases of white racism, but the same goes for Blacks. To be very specific I think that today 90% of everything going on in the African American community is the sole responsibility of African Americans, if not more. Look, I grew up living with African Americans probably nearly as much as you have in all likelihood, I lived 30 minutes away from New Orleans, which before Hurricane Katrina had one of the highest African American population ratios of any major U.S. city, if not the highest. In the schools I went to the whites were the minorities, in both my elementary and junior high schools blacks outnumbered whites 5 to 1, and I tell something right now this thing you focus on so much called ((Racism)) is not a one way street. Ive seen some of my friends get jumped and bullied to the point where some dropped out. I can remember One of my first best friends Jason Coblence getting teamed up on by three Black students while they all screamed CRACKER, among other things I cant say here.
You want to know something else? The gouvernment down there is probably more black than anywhere else, as well as the police departments. Look up names like William J. Jefferson, Marc Morial, or ((Willy Wonker)), oops I mean ((Ray Nagin)) my bad. So the system in southern Louisiana has a significant African American influence, it may even be a majority. So how did things fare down in Southern LA? If your interested look it up its not too pretty.
Yet I read your threads, and post after post, your speaking about the importance of equality, while every post I've seen of yours regarding race was in regards to white racism, or white corruption! In other words, Not the the problem as it stands, but the problem as you prefer to see it . The issue of racism goes back eons before America was even named, and its a problem we all share to some extent. Therefore I'm convinced your actually not interested in the problem, your interested in the sole protection of your race, and you use racism as an excuse to vent your own racist tensions towards whites.
Do you know why I don't go on rants about the corruption of Southern LA. and how African Americans down there are largely responsible? Because I know that the Ninth Ward, or the corrupted N.O.P.D., or the corruption surrounding politicians like William Jefferson, do not represent the African American majority in this nation. Some African Americans down their feed off the system while living off welfare, and mind you the system on all levels in Louisiana is largely black. The African Americans down there vote for the same goof balls every time, even when some of these politicians repeatedly screw up. So if the system in Louisiana has been screwed up at local levels, or somehow favors whites, as you claim this system as a whole does. Then I guess black politicians and cops are out to give black civilians a hard time for being black as well.
Anyway despite some of the foul ups among blacks where I grew up, and despite the black racism Ive seen in my life, I choose not make half of my post about why Blacks are racist, or why blacks are hypocritical. Occasionally I'll debate a race issue, but most blacks Ive met in my life are not racist, and I don't hold grudges against African Americans, which would motivate me to try and label them every other day. This whole racism gig that you play on, Ive seen more times than you could imagine. It doesn't fool me, if you really cared about the problem as it stands, at least some of your post would cover the shortcomings and racism issues among Blacks. Yet I don't see this, plus you have said particuarly racist things yourself, as I quoted once before.
Would that be the same Condi Rice who said a few weeks ago racism was a "birth defect" of America? Would that be the same Barack Obama who gave a magnificent speech on race and racism in America and called for the beginning of a renewed dialog on the matter---a call you seem to be deaf to?
You name a handful of Blacks that have achieved a bit of fame and fortune and you think that sums up the general state for 13 million others? Stop it and stop wasting my time with
this weak crap.
Weak crap? What you talkin bout Willis?
You know at least if Barack Obama wins the presidency, I will enjoy debating this type of thing even more than I do now. If he does get the presidency how will you work your little theory of whitey's system is out to get Blacky, the gouvernment favors whites, the courts are fixed, police pick on blacks when they break the law, yada yada ect ect?
Actually, even dragging the O.J. Simpson murder trial into a discussion about the assassination of Dr. King and the subsequent state of African-Americas is so asinine and pointless as to be unworthy of any response.
Um, read this question again.........
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
This question alone broadens the debate, beyond MLK. In fact in opens right up for just the type of things we are debating. 90% of my post is about the current state of African Americans, and of course your distortion of it
I cannot WAIT to find out how exactly African-Americans benefit from their skin color! Please share me with me this vital information so I can go back and tell every Black person I know.
But while I'm waiting for your sermon on the mount, lemme clue you into something net2007. You don't have to be an African-American living in the ghetto with no job to be treated like a second-class citizen. All you have to be is a well-dressed Black businessperson trying to hail a cab in Times Square around 5:00 in the afternoon and you'll find out quick, fast and in a hurry how little juice you have with a taxi driver who sails right past the smartly-dressed sister with the briefcase to pick up the White tourist with the "I Love New York" T-shirt.
Everyone's opinion is entitled to be respected. You have given me zero reasons to take yours seriously.
Oh for goodness sake, a cab driver in most cases will be sure not to deny service to an African American, its against the law for one, and if anything I see more whites kissing the rear ends of Blacks in fear of being labeled, than I see whites who are so racist you'd think they are KKK members. You don't factor in this whole other side to the story of racism in America. Most of your ideas on racism are a product of old thinking, and guess what? That type of one sided blame game, I hate to tell you, wont last. Arguments like the ones you make apply in fewer circumstances than you let on, and you blow scattered cases of racism completely out of proportion while completely ignoring racism among your own race.
Your post speak for themselves, and I'm losing count of the number of times I hear you blaming whites for something.
I like this line....... I cannot WAIT to find out how exactly African-Americans benefit from their skin color!
Lol, So that sounds bogus to you? Yea your probably over there thinking that African-Americans could never take advantage of their skin color, you saw the words ((African-American)) and thought IMPOSSIBLE! Would that be because only whites can take advantage of their skin color while taking advantage of other races for theirs?
You see, these are exactly the type of clues I see in your post, again and again, that show me that you don't understand racism, at least not fully. You look at it from one angle, the angle that makes whites out to be schmucks and bullies, while African Americans are the innocent victims who aparently, I just learned, are incapable of doing something as deceitful as taking advantage of their skin color, well according to you, yet it happens all the time. At least as much as a white cab driver passes by an African American for his skin color. If you actually need me to break down an example of something so obvious for you, then your willingly in denial and your going to deny the racist aspects of your own race, as you've always done, in turn making your post anything but fair and balanced.
Lol, Hey I didn't know we could use that word, cool. I think people should be alowed to insult one another, seriously. At least sparingly, I love free speech so let it out man, nobody is going to label you racist over here
QUOTE
Why should I care what makes sense to you? You're the one that always says, "I'm open-minded" and "I try to get a variety of points of views."
Lol didn't you just recently make a post that you said would be fair and balanced yourself? Or something of that nature, you want the quote? I pay close attention to what some of the regulars say here, for reasons like this. In fact this isn't the first time you cracked on me saying, I try to be open minded , next time I'll copy and paste that quote of yours.
To be honest I think I'm more fair than some people tend to be, but I admit to my biases and even my prejudices, because I surely have them. Want specifics? Ok, my opinion in politics leans to the right although I do go issue by issue. Regarding racism, I'm proud to be Caucasian, well technically I'm 50% Cajun, 25% Irish, and 25% Italian. My mom is 100% Cajun with an olive complexion, but I get my looks more from my father. However I suppose if I were categorized as either black or white, as broad as those descriptions are, Id say I'm white. Although my friend Ricky Sanchez thinks I'm black, lol.
Anyway I see races for their various qualities, as well as shortcomings. Nobody is perfect, but I have never felt responsible for the state of African Americans today, nor do I think white Americans as a whole are primarily responsible. There are of course persisting cases of white racism, but the same goes for Blacks. To be very specific I think that today 90% of everything going on in the African American community is the sole responsibility of African Americans, if not more. Look, I grew up living with African Americans probably nearly as much as you have in all likelihood, I lived 30 minutes away from New Orleans, which before Hurricane Katrina had one of the highest African American population ratios of any major U.S. city, if not the highest. In the schools I went to the whites were the minorities, in both my elementary and junior high schools blacks outnumbered whites 5 to 1, and I tell something right now this thing you focus on so much called ((Racism)) is not a one way street. Ive seen some of my friends get jumped and bullied to the point where some dropped out. I can remember One of my first best friends Jason Coblence getting teamed up on by three Black students while they all screamed CRACKER, among other things I cant say here.
You want to know something else? The gouvernment down there is probably more black than anywhere else, as well as the police departments. Look up names like William J. Jefferson, Marc Morial, or ((Willy Wonker)), oops I mean ((Ray Nagin)) my bad. So the system in southern Louisiana has a significant African American influence, it may even be a majority. So how did things fare down in Southern LA? If your interested look it up its not too pretty.
Yet I read your threads, and post after post, your speaking about the importance of equality, while every post I've seen of yours regarding race was in regards to white racism, or white corruption! In other words, Not the the problem as it stands, but the problem as you prefer to see it . The issue of racism goes back eons before America was even named, and its a problem we all share to some extent. Therefore I'm convinced your actually not interested in the problem, your interested in the sole protection of your race, and you use racism as an excuse to vent your own racist tensions towards whites.
Do you know why I don't go on rants about the corruption of Southern LA. and how African Americans down there are largely responsible? Because I know that the Ninth Ward, or the corrupted N.O.P.D., or the corruption surrounding politicians like William Jefferson, do not represent the African American majority in this nation. Some African Americans down their feed off the system while living off welfare, and mind you the system on all levels in Louisiana is largely black. The African Americans down there vote for the same goof balls every time, even when some of these politicians repeatedly screw up. So if the system in Louisiana has been screwed up at local levels, or somehow favors whites, as you claim this system as a whole does. Then I guess black politicians and cops are out to give black civilians a hard time for being black as well.
Anyway despite some of the foul ups among blacks where I grew up, and despite the black racism Ive seen in my life, I choose not make half of my post about why Blacks are racist, or why blacks are hypocritical. Occasionally I'll debate a race issue, but most blacks Ive met in my life are not racist, and I don't hold grudges against African Americans, which would motivate me to try and label them every other day. This whole racism gig that you play on, Ive seen more times than you could imagine. It doesn't fool me, if you really cared about the problem as it stands, at least some of your post would cover the shortcomings and racism issues among Blacks. Yet I don't see this, plus you have said particuarly racist things yourself, as I quoted once before.
QUOTE
QUOTE
I seriously do not know how that question can be answered by saying (Without a Doubt) while keeping a straight face. Tell us about how Condoleezza Rice, Lionel Richie, Barack Obama, or Roy Jones Jr. are finding themselves an exile in their own land?
Would that be the same Condi Rice who said a few weeks ago racism was a "birth defect" of America? Would that be the same Barack Obama who gave a magnificent speech on race and racism in America and called for the beginning of a renewed dialog on the matter---a call you seem to be deaf to?
You name a handful of Blacks that have achieved a bit of fame and fortune and you think that sums up the general state for 13 million others? Stop it and stop wasting my time with
this weak crap.
Weak crap? What you talkin bout Willis?
You know at least if Barack Obama wins the presidency, I will enjoy debating this type of thing even more than I do now. If he does get the presidency how will you work your little theory of whitey's system is out to get Blacky, the gouvernment favors whites, the courts are fixed, police pick on blacks when they break the law, yada yada ect ect?
QUOTE
QUOTE
Better yet how about O. J. Simpson, he seems to be doing quite well for having murdered two people, then writing a book about how he did it. The system sure didn't take advantage of him based on his skin color, hell thats for sure. In fact this is a situation where the opposite is true, Based on his skin color, he used the system. He cried racism so many times that nobody takes him serious at this point, but he got away with murder I believe in part because of his race. Naturally you will probably call that nonsense.
Actually, even dragging the O.J. Simpson murder trial into a discussion about the assassination of Dr. King and the subsequent state of African-Americas is so asinine and pointless as to be unworthy of any response.
Um, read this question again.........
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
This question alone broadens the debate, beyond MLK. In fact in opens right up for just the type of things we are debating. 90% of my post is about the current state of African Americans, and of course your distortion of it
QUOTE
QUOTE
Point is you seem to be stuck so much on this guilt trip of the past, that you don't even realize that today an African American is just as likely to benefit from their skin color than having that be a disadvantage. If an African American feels like a second class citizen because perhaps this person lives in the ghetto, with no job, I hate to say it but thats their fault and their problem, and thats it. This is America, its not Afghanistan and if the African Americans who don't excel in life, spent more time fixing their problems than inventing reasons to point fingers maybe they would be in better shape, cheers
I cannot WAIT to find out how exactly African-Americans benefit from their skin color! Please share me with me this vital information so I can go back and tell every Black person I know.
But while I'm waiting for your sermon on the mount, lemme clue you into something net2007. You don't have to be an African-American living in the ghetto with no job to be treated like a second-class citizen. All you have to be is a well-dressed Black businessperson trying to hail a cab in Times Square around 5:00 in the afternoon and you'll find out quick, fast and in a hurry how little juice you have with a taxi driver who sails right past the smartly-dressed sister with the briefcase to pick up the White tourist with the "I Love New York" T-shirt.
Everyone's opinion is entitled to be respected. You have given me zero reasons to take yours seriously.
Oh for goodness sake, a cab driver in most cases will be sure not to deny service to an African American, its against the law for one, and if anything I see more whites kissing the rear ends of Blacks in fear of being labeled, than I see whites who are so racist you'd think they are KKK members. You don't factor in this whole other side to the story of racism in America. Most of your ideas on racism are a product of old thinking, and guess what? That type of one sided blame game, I hate to tell you, wont last. Arguments like the ones you make apply in fewer circumstances than you let on, and you blow scattered cases of racism completely out of proportion while completely ignoring racism among your own race.
Your post speak for themselves, and I'm losing count of the number of times I hear you blaming whites for something.
I like this line....... I cannot WAIT to find out how exactly African-Americans benefit from their skin color!
Lol, So that sounds bogus to you? Yea your probably over there thinking that African-Americans could never take advantage of their skin color, you saw the words ((African-American)) and thought IMPOSSIBLE! Would that be because only whites can take advantage of their skin color while taking advantage of other races for theirs?
You see, these are exactly the type of clues I see in your post, again and again, that show me that you don't understand racism, at least not fully. You look at it from one angle, the angle that makes whites out to be schmucks and bullies, while African Americans are the innocent victims who aparently, I just learned, are incapable of doing something as deceitful as taking advantage of their skin color, well according to you, yet it happens all the time. At least as much as a white cab driver passes by an African American for his skin color. If you actually need me to break down an example of something so obvious for you, then your willingly in denial and your going to deny the racist aspects of your own race, as you've always done, in turn making your post anything but fair and balanced.
QUOTE
I know you can't spell worth a damn, net2007, but can you read?
Lol, Hey I didn't know we could use that word, cool. I think people should be alowed to insult one another, seriously. At least sparingly, I love free speech so let it out man, nobody is going to label you racist over here
QUOTE(net2007 @ Apr 8 2008, 08:54 PM)
In fact in opens right up for just the type of things we are debating. 90% of my post is about the current state of African Americans, and of course your distortion of it
Let me get this straight net2007. You, a young White man, knows more about the current state of being an African-American, than nighttimer, who is a middle-age Black man.
I sense a bit of arrogance to compliment your already demonstrated ignorance.
Whatever happened to the saying "walk a mile in my shoes."
QUOTE(BoF @ Apr 8 2008, 09:52 PM)
QUOTE(net2007 @ Apr 8 2008, 08:54 PM)
In fact in opens right up for just the type of things we are debating. 90% of my post is about the current state of African Americans, and of course your distortion of it
Let me get this straight net2007. You, a young White man, knows more about the current state of being an African-American, than nighttimer, who is a middle-age Black man.
I sense a bit of arrogance to compliment your already demonstrated ignorance.
Whatever happened to the saying "walk a mile in my shoes."
Well if you had walked a mile in my shoes in the past for example, you would know why I said that. This is silly anyway because what I said was.........
QUOTE
I grew up living with African Americans probably nearly as much as you have in all likelihood.
If your going to quote me at least do it right. How do you turn sentences like the one above into this.........
QUOTE
You, a young White man, knows more about the current state of being an African-American, than nighttimer,
and then call something I didn't say arrogant, thats good I like that, a little obvious but cute. I don't know, maybe you skipped that part, thats why you should quote everything thats in reference to what you reply about, rather than one little snipped sentence pulled out of context.
By the way I also didn't say what you implied from the small quote you did reply to. I didn't say I know more about the current state of being an African-American than him, I said he distorts the truth. The more you know about a subject the more you can distort it if thats what he wants. If I'm being hard on him then his repetitive focus on white racist, while brushing off the factor African Americans play in this, is something of a fluke coincidence.
Edited to add thoughts
QUOTE(net2007)
There are of course persisting cases of white racism, but the same goes for Blacks. To be very specific I think that today 90% of everything going on in the African American community is the sole responsibility of African Americans, if not more.
You see that's just a pleasant fiction. The fact is African-Americans are no more irresponsible than any other ethnic group in the same situation.
The major overriding reason African-Americans are economically less successful is the legacy of racism.
Note I said the legacy not necessarily current-day racism which is a much smaller issue, though not unsubstantial in itself.
It doesn't even have to do with guilt, it's facts, the situation on the ground.
QUOTE
Stealing? Is that what we're calling taxes now?
Here is where you step outside reason and into value judgments. I disagree on principle. We can decide what to do with our tax revenues through the democratic process.
It's not stealing to pay taxes for things you don't agree with personally.
Here is where you step outside reason and into value judgments. I disagree on principle. We can decide what to do with our tax revenues through the democratic process.
It's not stealing to pay taxes for things you don't agree with personally.
There are a considerable number of scholars that strongly believe taxing to redistribute income is fundamentally wrong and unconstitutional. We already are taxed for zillions of programs to assist the poor, many of which I outlined above, sir. No one has to starve, to not go to school, or go without a roof, if they just fill out the forms.
But, at some point we must quit making believe the poor can be saved and admit (and program for) a minimal level of assistance to provide a safety net and nothing more, and certainly quit affirmative action. Blacks have been free of slavery for 170 years or so, and free of any real restriction, legal or otherwise, since about 1964, or over 50 years. I'd say, in another 50 years, or a total of 5 generations (20 years per), aff action should have its sunset.
QUOTE
QUOTE(quick)
All we should do--in reality all we can do--is to remove basic legal barriers to advancement, which we have done. If that doesn't work, so be it. Not everyone is going to be an achiever.
That's a quaint view of public policy.
Legal barriers aren't the only issue. Issue of public education, health, safety, and infrastructure are all critical to economic opportunities as well.
From protective tariffs to common schools, to the Homestead Act and the Freeway system government action has played an enormous role in making this country the richest on earth.
It is simply an irrational sort of self-righteousness that forms the basis of this "they brought it on themselves" argument. If it were true the American middle class would never have reached the size it is now.
Remove barriers and the vast majority of the poor will succeed.
You really believe that last sentence? Really? And you call me quaint. I'd call you naive.
We should put basic policies in place that benefit us all and move on.
QUOTE(quick)
There are a considerable number of scholars that strongly believe taxing to redistribute income is fundamentally wrong and unconstitutional.
Who said anything about redistributing income? No one is handing out checks for the poor to use anyway they choose.
QUOTE(quick)
But, at some point we must quit making believe the poor can be saved and admit (and program for) a minimal level of assistance to provide a safety net and nothing more, and certainly quit affirmative action. Blacks have been free of slavery for 170 years or so, and free of any real restriction, legal or otherwise, since about 1964, or over 50 years. I'd say, in another 50 years, or a total of 5 generations (20 years per), aff action should have its sunset.
...by your math slightly more than forty.. in any case thats just passage of laws and verdicts of court cases.
If you consider the time it took for these things to be enforced you'd be better served to stretch that until the early seventies or so.
"With all deliberate speed" was quite possibility the funniest joke in American jurisprudence.
I don't presume to guess about the length of time Affirmative Action should be in place. It's a fairness measure that applies to gender and other ethnic discrmination as well, so African-Americans can't be the only consideration.
...and free of any "real" restriction? That's a wonderfully vague turn of phrase...
QUOTE(quick)
You really believe that last sentence? Really? And you call me quaint. I'd call you naive.
We should put basic policies in place that benefit us all and move on.
We should put basic policies in place that benefit us all and move on.
We weren't all subject to the same sort of oppression (historically), now were we?
In any case I'm not at all naive, merely following the trends of history the ranks of the poor shrank with every barrier that was removed over the centuries. Very few are intractably irresponsible, the rest have a chance. Especially the next generations.
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 9 2008, 01:17 PM)
QUOTE(net2007)
There are of course persisting cases of white racism, but the same goes for Blacks. To be very specific I think that today 90% of everything going on in the African American community is the sole responsibility of African Americans, if not more.
You see that's just a pleasant fiction. The fact is African-Americans are no more irresponsible than any other ethnic group in the same situation.
The major overriding reason African-Americans are economically less successful is the legacy of racism.
Note I said the legacy not necessarily current-day racism which is a much smaller issue, though not unsubstantial in itself.
It doesn't even have to do with guilt, it's facts, the situation on the ground.
The fact is African-Americans are no more irresponsible than any other ethnic group in the same situation.
Thats what I'm saying man! and with responsibility, comes being responsible for your own fate, get it?
The major overriding reason African-Americans are economically less successful is the legacy of racism.
Lol, the major overriding reason? Really?
That is such an elaboration of the truth, blown so much out of proportion, that lines like that are actually becoming laughable at this point. You actually believe racism is still playing such a significant factor among African Americans that it is the overriding reason of why unsuccessful black men are unsuccessful? Get with the times for goodness sakes friend, or at least come pick me up in your time machine so I can explore the past with you. I always wanted to go back and watch the JFK moon speech in 1961 myself....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gr3mlBQR8M How is M.L.K. doing by the way? Be weary of being tempted to march with him in public, you don't want to do anything that may alter the course of history.
QUOTE(net2007)
That is such an elaboration of the truth, blown so much out of proportion, that lines like that are actually becoming laughable at this point. You actually believe racism is still playing such a significant factor among African Americans that it is the overriding reason of why unsuccessful black men are unsuccessful?
You see this is the problem and I'll be blunt.
A complete lack of understanding of historical processes and a basic lack of knowledge about social and economic dynamics.
The problem with your "reasoning" (or at least the reasoning that may have been implied, if not present) is that you've confused causality with the more subjective concept of culpability.
That is to say I've explained "why", it is the legacy of past racism that explains why African-Americans are less well off economically as a group. Just like the only other ethnic group in the US to undergo discrimination in anything close to a similar scale, native Americans (or Amerindians for our nitpickers).
It is seen to a lesser degree among other oppressed ethnic populations.
You on the other hand didn't really explain why so much as moralized about who's culpable. Ignoring history entirely you simply decide that since legal restrictions ended about forty year ago, now every poor African-American is either well off or not trying.
This is.... problematic.
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 9 2008, 06:06 PM)
QUOTE(quick)
There are a considerable number of scholars that strongly believe taxing to redistribute income is fundamentally wrong and unconstitutional.
Who said anything about redistributing income? No one is handing out checks for the poor to use anyway they choose.
QUOTE(quick)
But, at some point we must quit making believe the poor can be saved and admit (and program for) a minimal level of assistance to provide a safety net and nothing more, and certainly quit affirmative action. Blacks have been free of slavery for 170 years or so, and free of any real restriction, legal or otherwise, since about 1964, or over 50 years. I'd say, in another 50 years, or a total of 5 generations (20 years per), aff action should have its sunset.
...by your math slightly more than forty.. in any case thats just passage of laws and verdicts of court cases.
If you consider the time it took for these things to be enforced you'd be better served to stretch that until the early seventies or so.
"With all deliberate speed" was quite possibility the funniest joke in American jurisprudence.
I don't presume to guess about the length of time Affirmative Action should be in place. It's a fairness measure that applies to gender and other ethnic discrmination as well, so African-Americans can't be the only consideration.
...and free of any "real" restriction? That's a wonderfully vague turn of phrase...
QUOTE(quick)
You really believe that last sentence? Really? And you call me quaint. I'd call you naive.
We should put basic policies in place that benefit us all and move on.
We should put basic policies in place that benefit us all and move on.
We weren't all subject to the same sort of oppression (historically), now were we?
In any case I'm not at all naive, merely following the trends of history the ranks of the poor shrank with every barrier that was removed over the centuries. Very few are intractably irresponsible, the rest have a chance. Especially the next generations.
As to the language that is bolded above: I know you do not presume a length of time AA should remain; blacks who have bought into the crutch mentality want the crutch forever. A reasonable sunset date would be the best thing that ever happened, for both races.
As to redistribution of income, many of our programs do just that. What do you think AFDC and Medicaid do? The top half pay almost all of the taxes so the bottom half can get these benefits. This is news to you?
I just cannot buy you last comment: Poverty is relative. There are always "poor". Our poor may not be as pitiful as, say, Haitian poor, but so long as someone has a Mercedes, a guy in a Chevy will think he is poor. The beacon call is freedom--freedom to succeed, or to fail. As long as real freedom exists, we will have poor people, as some will have to fail, either absolutely or relatively.
Crutches need to be pitched as soon as possible for those who can help themselves, with the attendant risk and motivation that entails. It is just common sense, as well as fair to those who've made the extra effort to succeed.
QUOTE(net2007 @ Apr 9 2008, 11:14 PM)
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 9 2008, 01:17 PM)
The major overriding reason African-Americans are economically less successful is the legacy of racism.
QUOTE
Lol, the major overriding reason? Really?
That is such an elaboration of the truth, blown so much out of proportion, that lines like that are actually becoming laughable at this point. You actually believe racism is still playing such a significant factor among African Americans that it is the overriding reason of why unsuccessful black men are unsuccessful? Get with the times for goodness sakes friend, or at least come pick me up in your time machine so I can explore the past with you. I always wanted to go back and watch the JFK moon speech in 1961 myself....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gr3mlBQR8M How is M.L.K. doing by the way? Be weary of being tempted to march with him in public, you don't want to do anything that may alter the course of history.
That is such an elaboration of the truth, blown so much out of proportion, that lines like that are actually becoming laughable at this point. You actually believe racism is still playing such a significant factor among African Americans that it is the overriding reason of why unsuccessful black men are unsuccessful? Get with the times for goodness sakes friend, or at least come pick me up in your time machine so I can explore the past with you. I always wanted to go back and watch the JFK moon speech in 1961 myself....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gr3mlBQR8M How is M.L.K. doing by the way? Be weary of being tempted to march with him in public, you don't want to do anything that may alter the course of history.
Honestly, I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. A few decades is hardly enough time to 'get over' past injustices. And I'm not talking about emotionally 'getting over' it...that will obviously vary greatly from one person to the next. The FACT that Black schools and educational opportunities were far inferior (inferiority that had everything to do wtih racism) from the dawn of their existence in this country until just a few decades ago...well you'd think people would appreciate that something as far-reaching and important as education would have a dramatic and long-lasting impact. So many people were (and still are) up in arms about bussing...largely because they KNEW that Black schools were inferior and they didn't want their (white) kids to have to go to some poor/black/lesser school. I think we can all agree that a person's education plays a significant role in their success. This stuff is cyclical. When under-educated people have children, the likelihood that their children will be under-educated is pretty high, especially if this situation is a result of something as all-encompassing as a racist/segregated educational system.
Most people aren't saying it's some great conspiracy. Those of us who have seen and experienced the 'legacy of racism' just want people to say "okay...just because *I* haven't seen or experienced it does not make it untrue" or "the effects of racism may be more than I can personally see or understand".
Dr. King may or not have actually believed that his 'dream' would ever come to fruition. I'm sure he wasn't naive enough to think that his eloquence and powerful message alone would be able to turn the tides and remove all traces of racism from our laws/legislation and the hearts and minds of the citizenry. Were he alive today, I can only imagine that he'd note the progress, but say that we still have a long way to come...change doesn't happen overnight and the effects of racism ARE still present, whether or not we see/understand or want to admit it.
Edited to add: quick, if you would like to discuss AA or would like more information on how AA actually works, feel free to PM me. I used to work in AA as a consultant (writing AA plans for companies, analyzing data, etc.) and would be happy to explain the inner workings of this "crutch" to you. Or I can point you in the direction of previous posts in the archives if you'd like...
QUOTE(quick)
As to the language that is bolded above: I know you do not presume a length of time AA should remain; blacks who have bought into the crutch mentality want the crutch forever. A reasonable sunset date would be the best thing that ever happened, for both races.
As I said before AA isn't simply a black/white issue.
QUOTE(quick)
As to redistribution of income, many of our programs do just that. What do you think AFDC and Medicaid do? The top half pay almost all of the taxes so the bottom half can get these benefits.
Perhaps, but that's not income redistribution, that is to say no one is receiving cash. It does provide basic needs for those who cannot at present fund them themselves.
If you think that tiered tax structure is stealing, I don't and neither do the American people and courts as a whole.
QUOTE(quick)
I just cannot buy you last comment: Poverty is relative. There are always "poor". Our poor may not be as pitiful as, say, Haitian poor, but so long as someone has a Mercedes, a guy in a Chevy will think he is poor.
I drive a used '99 Chevy myself.
In any case there are both relative and absolute measures of poverty. Quality of life if you will...
QUOTE(quick)
The beacon call is freedom--freedom to succeed, or to fail. As long as real freedom exists, we will have poor people, as some will have to fail, either absolutely or relatively.
Some... but few.
Those who are physically and mentally disabled for instance (much of our homeless problem is mental illness-caused).... and yes even a few reprobates.
...but they are a small margin of society and cyclical poverty is almost entirely unnecessary.
QUOTE(quick)
Crutches need to be pitched as soon as possible for those who can help themselves, with the attendant risk and motivation that entails. It is just common sense, as well as fair to those who've made the extra effort to succeed.
To keep with that metaphor doctors don't order people off crutches as soon as it's determined they can hop around on one leg.
The wound is not healed.
Okay- I am 43 years old, born in Texas of what some would call "extremist" christian ideology- but it, being the largest protestant group in the US- I would argue it is fairly mainstream today- and was the norm from 1965-1975, when I was coming up in the world.
My ma divorced my pa when I was 7, in 1972, when you really needed to hate someone to get a divorce, so she made up some reasons, and we travelled and moved 22 times between 1972-1977, and I got the "opurtunity" to experiance race relations in a variety of school districts of varying socio-economic status. I got beat up several times by much older school mates that didn't like white people much.
Why do I bring all this up? Because race and MLKs legacy were experianced up close and personal, and now, I hope to pass MLKs legacy and message- just a bit, to my kids- I will explain later.
I am not always in agreement with Turnea and NT, but I think we can debate those points like adults without animus, for the following reasons:
1) I understand racism still exists in my country, and is pretty profound really. You can't have a rational discussion if you don't even acknowledge of the problem. Housing, jobs etc are denied, routinely and daily, for no other reason than they are black, and in fact, an inferior employee is hired that is white first.
2) I understand that there needs to be some sort of govermental solution- it can not be cured out of the kindness of racists heart.
There seems to be an attempt by the republican party specifically and conservatives in general to "white wash" and "clean up" the 'pub party hatred towards MLK.
Reagan disliked everything MLK< it is quite clear from his speeches- and actions- the main one was how he refused to recognize MLK day as a holiday, until a veto proof majority made him sign it.
On top of that- they have attempted to make MLK into something he is not- another Clarence Thomas or something
An MLK fact- he was for affirmative action, for goverment intervention in racial issues, and very, very liberal, in almost every way I can think of.
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Well, obviously- strides have been made- but as I have pointed out in the race threads- a black man will be denied even the attempt to interview for a job, if he has a "black" sounding name, or a "black" sounding voice. In fact, a black male or female with an impeccable resume' will not get a "call back" because of thier name's sound or thier voice's "accent" - and a white male, with a FELONY CONVICTION that is less quailified will get a call back first.
That alone is evidence enough for myself.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Up close and personal. When I was a child in Texas- blacks had "thier nieghbors" and whites had "thiers"- and when that became illegal- they called it "steering"- "steering" them to thier "own nieghborhoods" in the real estate language.
Then we had this term then we called "white flight"- a black family would move into the nieghborhood, whites would say "there goes the nieghborhood"- and the racists would sell out first, and then those that felt the property values plummet due to this cascade effect would leave next, and leave it a pretty much blighted nieghborhood by the time "non-whites" moved in.
The counter to this was the threat of violence towards middle class black families looking to move up the American dream ladder. Saw and heard it for myself man!
Alaska became popular with a variety of middle class people of a variety of ethnic groups could marry, live in peace, and buy any house they wanted. No one really gave a rat's fanny if a black family lived next door.
My kids "third grandpa" is a man that lives next door our whole family loves and adores. He is a bit elderly, I help him with the manly outside duties
. He is a veteran, twice wounded in Vietnam. He is black. He has no grandchildren of his own- his daughter is a principal of a local school, his son owns his own business, his wife was a principal of one of the largest schools- that happens to be nearly all white.
Without MLK, none of this would have happened when it did- who knows, Alaska has always pretty much plotted it's own course in respect to, well, everything. We may have "overcome" ourselves- but MLK definately got the ball rolling to make sure WE made "steerage" illegal, and now, I have a great friend, and my kids, a great roll model an caring old fella, that is black, and they can talk of different colors as innocent children with no baggage themselves.
I credit a great deal of this, in my personal life, to MLK.
That is why I admire him as much as Thomas Jefforson, Abraham Lincoln and Benjiman Franklin.
I would carve his face into the Rushmore monument myself if I were allowed- he belongs up there with the others, more than any human in the US as far as I am concerned. He represents the culmination of the other founding fathers efforts. He is the pinnacle, and should be treated as such.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
See above.
We had a national hero of the proportion of our founding fathers, and, like with those founding fathers- we knew not what we had at the time.
His legacy is now larger than life- which is barely possible, considering his impact on the US. His impact is so profound, that the republican party today is trying to make him conservative- pretty hardcore IMHO
Oh, and quick-
I don't want to pay for the Iraq war, Haliburton's contracts, or corporate welfare. Nor do I think funding "absitnence" programs are anything but stupid and inaffective.
So um, can I just hold that portion of my taxes back. You see, more than anything else you said- nothing is as big as the multi-trillion dollar hole we are digging there.
REmember=it was the republican senate and legislative bodies, combined with the white house- that spent more money that an "tax and spend" liberal in US history.
Can I have my money back from those dudes- I would like it out of thier personal accounts too- not out of goverment money,
after all, Cheney and Bush can afford it anyway.
My ma divorced my pa when I was 7, in 1972, when you really needed to hate someone to get a divorce, so she made up some reasons, and we travelled and moved 22 times between 1972-1977, and I got the "opurtunity" to experiance race relations in a variety of school districts of varying socio-economic status. I got beat up several times by much older school mates that didn't like white people much.
Why do I bring all this up? Because race and MLKs legacy were experianced up close and personal, and now, I hope to pass MLKs legacy and message- just a bit, to my kids- I will explain later.
I am not always in agreement with Turnea and NT, but I think we can debate those points like adults without animus, for the following reasons:
1) I understand racism still exists in my country, and is pretty profound really. You can't have a rational discussion if you don't even acknowledge of the problem. Housing, jobs etc are denied, routinely and daily, for no other reason than they are black, and in fact, an inferior employee is hired that is white first.
2) I understand that there needs to be some sort of govermental solution- it can not be cured out of the kindness of racists heart.
There seems to be an attempt by the republican party specifically and conservatives in general to "white wash" and "clean up" the 'pub party hatred towards MLK.
Reagan disliked everything MLK< it is quite clear from his speeches- and actions- the main one was how he refused to recognize MLK day as a holiday, until a veto proof majority made him sign it.
On top of that- they have attempted to make MLK into something he is not- another Clarence Thomas or something
An MLK fact- he was for affirmative action, for goverment intervention in racial issues, and very, very liberal, in almost every way I can think of.
One hundred and forty years later, is the Negro still languishing in the corners of American society, finding him/herself an exile in his/her own land?
Well, obviously- strides have been made- but as I have pointed out in the race threads- a black man will be denied even the attempt to interview for a job, if he has a "black" sounding name, or a "black" sounding voice. In fact, a black male or female with an impeccable resume' will not get a "call back" because of thier name's sound or thier voice's "accent" - and a white male, with a FELONY CONVICTION that is less quailified will get a call back first.
That alone is evidence enough for myself.
What is your perception of MLK's legacy?
Up close and personal. When I was a child in Texas- blacks had "thier nieghbors" and whites had "thiers"- and when that became illegal- they called it "steering"- "steering" them to thier "own nieghborhoods" in the real estate language.
Then we had this term then we called "white flight"- a black family would move into the nieghborhood, whites would say "there goes the nieghborhood"- and the racists would sell out first, and then those that felt the property values plummet due to this cascade effect would leave next, and leave it a pretty much blighted nieghborhood by the time "non-whites" moved in.
The counter to this was the threat of violence towards middle class black families looking to move up the American dream ladder. Saw and heard it for myself man!
Alaska became popular with a variety of middle class people of a variety of ethnic groups could marry, live in peace, and buy any house they wanted. No one really gave a rat's fanny if a black family lived next door.
My kids "third grandpa" is a man that lives next door our whole family loves and adores. He is a bit elderly, I help him with the manly outside duties
. He is a veteran, twice wounded in Vietnam. He is black. He has no grandchildren of his own- his daughter is a principal of a local school, his son owns his own business, his wife was a principal of one of the largest schools- that happens to be nearly all white. Without MLK, none of this would have happened when it did- who knows, Alaska has always pretty much plotted it's own course in respect to, well, everything. We may have "overcome" ourselves- but MLK definately got the ball rolling to make sure WE made "steerage" illegal, and now, I have a great friend, and my kids, a great roll model an caring old fella, that is black, and they can talk of different colors as innocent children with no baggage themselves.
I credit a great deal of this, in my personal life, to MLK.
That is why I admire him as much as Thomas Jefforson, Abraham Lincoln and Benjiman Franklin.
I would carve his face into the Rushmore monument myself if I were allowed- he belongs up there with the others, more than any human in the US as far as I am concerned. He represents the culmination of the other founding fathers efforts. He is the pinnacle, and should be treated as such.
Did MLK make a difference to your life, even if you were born after his death?
See above.
We had a national hero of the proportion of our founding fathers, and, like with those founding fathers- we knew not what we had at the time.
His legacy is now larger than life- which is barely possible, considering his impact on the US. His impact is so profound, that the republican party today is trying to make him conservative- pretty hardcore IMHO
Oh, and quick-
I don't want to pay for the Iraq war, Haliburton's contracts, or corporate welfare. Nor do I think funding "absitnence" programs are anything but stupid and inaffective.
So um, can I just hold that portion of my taxes back. You see, more than anything else you said- nothing is as big as the multi-trillion dollar hole we are digging there.
REmember=it was the republican senate and legislative bodies, combined with the white house- that spent more money that an "tax and spend" liberal in US history.
Can I have my money back from those dudes- I would like it out of thier personal accounts too- not out of goverment money,
after all, Cheney and Bush can afford it anyway.
QUOTE(turnea @ Apr 10 2008, 09:24 AM)
QUOTE(net2007)
That is such an elaboration of the truth, blown so much out of proportion, that lines like that are actually becoming laughable at this point. You actually believe racism is still playing such a significant factor among African Americans that it is the overriding reason of why unsuccessful black men are unsuccessful?
You see this is the problem and I'll be blunt.
A complete lack of understanding of historical processes and a basic lack of knowledge about social and economic dynamics.
The problem with your "reasoning" (or at least the reasoning that may have been implied, if not present) is that you've confused causality with the more subjective concept of culpability.
That is to say I've explained "why", it is the legacy of past racism that explains why African-Americans are less well off economically as a group. Just like the only other ethnic group in the US to undergo discrimination in anything close to a similar scale, native Americans (or Amerindians for our nitpickers).
It is seen to a lesser degree among other oppressed ethnic populations.
You on the other hand didn't really explain why so much as moralized about who's culpable. Ignoring history entirely you simply decide that since legal restrictions ended about forty year ago, now every poor African-American is either well off or not trying.
This is.... problematic.
Lets get specific then, because not one person taking advantage of American history, such as you, has been able to back there repeated cries of racism with anything of substance, and I mean nothing but griping and moaning, and griping and moaning. People like yourself not only say racism exist (which I firmly agree with) you assume its the major underlying reason unsuccessful blacks are unsuccessful, as you said yourself just two post ago, despite the fact you cant back that up, and deep down you know you cant back it up.
Ok lets get really specific, because this little blame game has about run its course and its time people like you start backing what they say. If you say its the major underlying reason that phrase is basically a synonym of saying Primary Reason. After all the words Major and Primary are synonyms. This means if an African American is passed over for a job its most likely because of racism, if he doesn't go to school its most likely because of racism, if he gets arrested its most likely because of racism, and if he doesn't get treated with respect its most likely because of racism. I call that a flat out joke that Barack Obama would even disagre with to be frank Turnea.
So here is the deal, for every case of racism holding back an African American from succeeding that you can show in recent times, I will name 10 examples of Successful African Americans in this country, and you will not keep up with me, and thats all there is to it
Net- here are some sources. Yes, racism is a very valid, primary AND underlying reason that blacks are "held back" in our society.
Here is a link to the story on the cambridge story- you can find the original source yourself if you wish"
http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=1133
Here is a link to the story on the cambridge story- you can find the original source yourself if you wish"
http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=1133