No. No. No.

No. Context is important. Intent is important. And, as droop said, "the exact words and tone" are important. A very common phrase like "climbing trees like monkeys" used to describe children all over this planet does not become a slur simply because an African-American is present. Nobody here has been able to trace this phrase to any sort of racism... they've traced one word in the phrase. Someone else brought it up, and I'll say it as well. In the same situation, if she'd said that they needed to stop monkeying around... your saying a slur or insult is introduced simply because the word "monkey" has another meaning... despite the fact that this is another incredibly common phrase that has nothing to do with race.

I think they're both important.


I don't like being called a girl 'cause I'm not one, Bucket. It's kinda like calling blacks monkeys—they're not simians. Or calling a black man a boy for that matter.


I'm inclined to agree Obama is dogwhistling. But this is gender specific, isn't it? The monkey phrase can apply to everyone's children, regardless of sex and race. It's harder to argue he doesn't mean anything by this statement.

The more that these types of situations occur and are blown out of proportion, the more white people will become increasingly resentful. Whites may not be overt about it, but it could end up hurting Obama in the general election, if he is perceived as someone who condones this sort of false accusation followed by muzzling of free speech.

I am sorry but entspeak I am just not going to take your word as a white male on when it is or isn't offensive to use the word monkey towards a black person. It seems to me the few black people we have on this debate site are saying they totally understand and recognize the idea of taking offense to this.

Lesly, I am not a girl either, but I do not mind some people calling me one, and yet I resent it when others do.
Also in regards to Obama's periodically feeling down comment it is not gender specific in and of itself, you could say this about a man, or at least we can pretend that people do. But in the context of it being a slur or sexist remark then it does become gender specific. I just am curious if you are so readily open to the idea of code or hidden words or phrases to express sexist ideals why do you not feel this to be true in regards to racism? Or are you just giving this woman the benefit of the doubt? which really is beside the point I was trying to make. I was just arguing that to pretend like most Americans don't know of or understand racially sensitive language is a bit neglectful of an argument to make.

Seems, madam? I know not seems.

I think you need to take another look at what the "few black people we have on this debate site" have actually stated.

Turnea says he's used this phrase to describe himself and was agreeing with moif on the issue.

Droop was basing his comments on a completely different statement that was made after the incident and is are contradicted by the police report. In fact, it was droop who said that the exact wording and intent was important in this instance.

That's 2 out of the 3 people that I recognize as being "black people" participating in this thread, but perhaps I'm not as familiar with who the "few black people we have on this site" are as you seem to be.

Entspeak said:

DoomedPlanet said:

Some will be resentful.

Most white people I think are more confused than anything else.

I noted one poster alluding to the fact that they choose to stick "mental filters" on when blacks are around. As much as white(er) people are asked to consider our words and the cultural impact when it comes to "terms" and "phrases" with blacks... do blacks put as much effort in disregarding a faux pas slip, or a truly accidental phrase before they choose to be offended?

I kind of spent the day (here and there, not ALL day, mind you) kind of meditating on that.

Okay, for instance, shouldn't this neighbor have considered that "monkeys" was probably the #1 answer for the Family Feud style question of "Name an animal that is known for swinging in trees..."

Second, I once noted a co-worker say "Man, the boss is working us like slaves today" in front of a black guy. He instantly realized what he said, and got that "Oh Crap!!" look on his face, and started apologizing. I found it interesting that the attitude of the other guy was pretty much "offended and unforgiving". So the guy who was instantly sorry got tired of apologizing without getting an "Hey, that's cool", and decided that he wasn't going to grovel for acceptance to his apology, and both never worked with each other with the harmony that they used to. I understood both sides, but I just thought that the end result was not only incredibly stupid, but really, a shame.

While blacks are tired of being perceived as "lazy" or "criminal", whites are equally tired of being perceived as "racist" or "insensitive".

For either side, "taking the high road" is considered a weakness. I can see race "strategy" in play here, but I don't think I see much progress.

But the real shame best illustrated in this story: I think as a society, we have truly forgotten how to forgive each other, and instead turn offense into revenge.

I can honestly say I would mind being called a girl by people I know and love unless it's something offhand like: "You better watch out, girl!" (wordage, tone, demeanor)


I thought what makes it a slur is that men don't menstruate and deal with the stigma(s) attached to that function. What would you say if McCain was a mental health patient at some point during his political career and Obama explained McCain's attacks during the campaign as a sign that he was "periodically feeling down"?


There're plenty of code words/phrases in regards to racism such as spearchucker, ghetto game and Chinese fire drill—where is NT when you need him?—but I disagree Bill Clinton's roll of the dice comment is racist because Obama is black.


Apparently that's not correct Bucket 'cause I'm not getting it here.

Exactly. People have to really start understanding the nature of how Blacks see racism. When I can go to a club, as a grown man, and watch people put up "dress code" that single out urban "name brands" and a White person can look you dead in your face and say "I'm not being racist, I don't let white people in wearing Rocowear either."... you start understanding.

Racism will not be blatant.

I mean I gave you all another version. I am in no way saying that the version I presented is exactly what happened. I am saying this. Blacks don't sit around waiting to be offended.

And I will tell you this, Blacks do talk about people amongst themselves if the see a pattern of questionable remarks. And then someone may say something that isn't that bad, but because they made so many quips that could go either way, they get called out for it.

Maybe if there was tension between the neighbors before there may have already been enough things said to cause the Blacks to feel racial disharmony with Mrs Ramirez... and I'm just speculating. Maybe the monkey comment was really worst they what we feel, maybe it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" since it was directed at children. Or maybe the two ladies were being hyper sensitive.

My problem is such. We all can see how the comments could have no racial intent and just been misinterpreted by the two Black ladies. Funny, how we can't all see that the comments could have come off as, or be meant to be offensive...

Why do you think that? Because not everyone said, "Yes, if the woman told those children they are monkeys because their parents are monkeys and they look like monkeys I can see that they might have had a point"? Why do we have to say that, precisely? White people in general haven't properly excoriated themselves enough to vote for and support a black presidential candidate?

This person (the one being excoriated) is supporting the only realistic black presidential candidate in the history of the United States. Does she have to pass some sort of as-of-yet-undisclosed loyalty test by not using the words 'children' and 'monkeys' in the same sentence? And to answer your charge, almost everyone on this thread has actually indicated they could understand if the context was different. I haven't. Okay, I, too, would understand if the context was different.

Here's a true story. Back when my husband and I first got together in college, he was accused of stealing. He had a very dark tan (it was Florida, he was outside a lot and very dark with his latino skin) and a a 'fro (before he went into the military. His hair is black and kinky when longer). He paid for the gas at the station, then left and the woman (whatever her reasons, perhaps innocently forgot that he paid...) called the police and said he stole the gas and drove away without paying. The police stopped him to arrest him along the highway. He couldn't prove he paid for the gas because he had thrown out his receipt at the gas station right after he paid (as most people do). He had to go back and rummage through the nasty trash can to find his receipt.

Back then, we didn't have cell phones so I was waiting and waiting in Miami for the two+ hours it took for him to find his receipt and satisfy the police. I thought he was in an accident and worried to death. You know what he told me when he came home? It wasn't unusual. That sort of thing happened to him pretty frequently (not the paying for gas part, or he would have kept the receipt from experience obviously, but similar things...though it hasn't happened since he cut his hair, stays out of the sun and wears better clothes, for the past 12 years or so). He wasn't nearly as perturbed as I was. I get it. Yes, it sucks. Yes, there's a lot of "non-blatant" racism out there. I don't see the relevancy to this topic. First, no one should be ticketed for something they say merely because it "offends", regardless if it is racist or not....if she was guilty of unlawful conduct then that is another matter, but I've seen no evidence of that presented here. Secondly, and more to the point, there is nothing whatsoever to indicate this woman's statement was racist or "divisive" anyway.

Here is what droop said most recently....

My problem is such. We all can see how the comments could have no racial intent and just been misinterpreted by the two Black ladies. Funny, how we can't all see that the comments could have come off as, or be meant to be offensive...

And that is exactly my argument, it could be taken poorly, and socially one should be careful in using words like this towards a black person, even if your intention is not to be cruel it could be taken as such and I think that to ignore this fact shows a lack of understanding and respect. You really don't know what their past experiences could have been with this word.
When I lived in Switzerland my dearest friend was black, and she was the only black person I knew living in my area. Her child used to get called monkey all the time at the playground that was right outside their front door of their home by the Swiss kids who did it to be mean and racist and it was very upsetting to their whole family. And this was in 2003, so we are far from excusing ourselves from certain means of language and intimidation.




Ha well I can honestly say you could never handle my job Lesly, I get called all kinds of fun stuff. But that relates well to my point we all have our preferences and tolerances for language like this. You never know how much calling a woman a girl is going to offend them so in situations where you don't best thing to do is...don't.



Well the idea it relates to menstrual cycle is open to interpretation, one can argue that is just speaks of human emotions in general. I dunno if I want to relate mental health situations with menstruation, seems like I might be affirming something I don't wish to.

2 Cheers for Bucket.... that is all. As you were.

And if this woman called these children "monkey" I'd be right there with you. But no matter how many times you imply that she did or droop mentions statements that contradict the police statements, this woman did not call these kids monkeys. She didn't do it. So, in regards to droop's most recent statement, I just have to say that if he had called these kids monkeys, even if she meant it innocently, I could understand that such a comment could come off as offensive or could be seen as being meant to be offensive. But that did not happen here.