In another thread, I was accused of “hating” George W. Bush. The post has since been deleted, and while I am not going to deny "hating" Bush, I have some legitimate questions about the matter.

The latest Real Clear Politics Polls show George W. Bush’s approval ratings in the low 30’s

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/

Two things are clear. 1. George W. Bush is quite unpopular. If you go back to the end of Real Clear Politics, it is hard to find a poll where Bush had a positive poll number. His unpopularity has extended over a long period of time and across many polls, including the conservative FNC. 2. Bush has a hard core support of between 30 and 35 percent.

Questions for debate:

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from “love” on one end to “hate” on the other?

2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

4. What impact will Bush’s continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from “love” on one end to “hate” on the other?

Ambivalent.

2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

No, they are truisms. There are certain people here who address virtually every issue on which they post with nothing more than a "I hate Bush" type of post. Often times, those who attempt to address the issues raised in the thread objectively are termed "Bushbots" and their arguments discounted. That is not the stuff of a good debate. But it happens here over and over again. Good topics get polluted and side-tracked by the constant ragging on "Bush the moron" instead of anything to do with the actual topic itself.

3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

I'm somewhat disappointed actually.



4. What impact will Bush’s continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

If the Democrats ever finish their food fight, they'll try to make this election about Bush. Ain't a gonna happen. McCain is hardly Bush and recent polls have shown him doing relatively well despite not having the big bucks that Obama and Clinton have. I am confident that John McCain will be able to define himself as his own person once the real campaign begins.


Aquilla

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from “love� on one end to “hate� on the other?

I don't hate Geroge Bush (that is to say, I don't think he's evil), but I do hate what he's done to our country. I don't know him personally and I think he's done what he thinks is in the best interests of America. I just handily disagree with him on most things.


2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

It depends. Some people are Bush-haters, or Clinton-haters, for example. Some are Bush-lovers, who think he can do no wrong. More than labels, I think the positions these people blindly take condemns them as inconsequential.


4. What impact will Bush’s continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

Probably not much. Bush is unpopular. We get it. What people seem to want, I think, is some way to move forward. None of these candidates are Bush clones. I dislike a lot of what McCain has to say and some of it is due to his support of Bush's actions and principles. But I also dislike a lot of what Clinton has to say, and she's far from a Bush clone.

I think, and hope, that people will judge the candidates based on what they can do for America. Bush should, and likely will, be relegated to the past.

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from “love” on one end to “hate” on the other?

If I had the vote in the USA, I wouldn't have voted for him. That's all I can say. Whether I love him or hate him does not necessarily translate into whether I would vote for him. I "love" Halle Berry but I'm not sure how good she'd be as a president, and I "hate" Kate Moss (is anyone a bigger waste of skin?) but for all I know she might be quite nice or quite an effective leader.

When it comes to politicians, I think that love and hate are what support and disapproval turn into with the benefit of experience. Outside Illinois and New York, nobody sane should love or hate Obama or Hillary Clinton, because nobody outside those states has any experience of how they govern. The same goes for McCain. And the same should have gone for GW Bush back in the campaign of 1999.

2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

Yes. "Bush lovers" just as much. They're simply ad hominem comments that add no light but lots of heat to debate.

However, the important question is not whether he is loved or hated, but why. His core support is about 30%, and they seem willing to give that support no matter what he says or does. I can't tell from these figures, but I'd imagine there was a similarly-sized group of hard core of "haters" at the other end, who would hate him no matter what he did.

Everyone else will make their judgments based on how good a job they think he's doing - i.e., unlike the two 20% extremes, they'll based thier opinions on what he does not on who he is. What he hs done has been very unpopular - maybe only 15% of people on top of the hardcore support him because they think he's done a good job, rather than support him no matter what but try to justify it by saying they think he's done a good job. In other words, they are straight ahead party or Bush loyalists.

In common with any other sort of loyalist, the motivation is often or even usually driven as much by hatred of the other guy as it is by any special affection for your own.

This would be similar to the figures Bill Clinton had toward the end of his term - a hard core of supporters, and a hard core of opposition, with the people in the middle changing their minds over time based on experience and based on the decisions Bush has made and their outcomes. He was never as unpopular as Bush has become, but to a great extent that has to be put down to the extraordinary circumstances that have faced Bush - Clinton never had a 9-11 or an Iraq war (or an Enron or a sub-prime crisis, for that matter). He had his challenges and oppotunities, but they were different and - say what you like - I don't think they were on quite the scale that Bush has faced (or created).

So, to be fair to Bush, circumstances have been even more polarising for him than they were for Clinton. And, still being fair, he has handled some of them very badly (though the comparisons have to stop there; nobody knows how anyone else would have behaved differently).

3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

I wouldn't vote for him because I can't think of a single policy where he and I agree.

4. What impact will Bush’s continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

He's not standing, so it will be muted. McCain (rightly or wrongly) will get some of the mud slung at him. Some of it is just partisan carping from the 20% that are undying haters. Some of it will deserve to stick because he supported many of the most unpopular decisions taken by Bush, that the middle 60% tend massively to dissapprove of.

The same will go for Clinton, based on her husbands term of office and her own time in Congress. Unlike Laura Bush, and most other first ladies, she was much more hands on, so again, some of the mud from Bill's years in office will deserve to stick, and some wo'n't. But I think she is as polarising in her own right as Bush has been.

Obama is something of an unknown quantity, which seems to be both his greatest strength and biggest weakness.

Ultimately, until the Democrats have settled on a single candidate, we won't really know how the Presidential campaign will work. It's fun to speculate, though.



It's interesting that you mention Clinton-haters. It feeds into what I was saying before about there being hardcore, do-or-die supporters at either end of the spectrum. I'd bet that on a Venn diagram, the hard core Clinton haters would almost exactly (say, 90%) coincide with the Bush lovers, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, rather than being inconsequential, these people seem to be the core support and indeed key figures seem to be in the campaign teams. So, while it would be better for democracy if they could be brushed away so easily, their poisonous influence (at both ends) will carry on for a long time yet.

It shouldn't happen, but it will and it might just determine the next election. What you say is true, McCain is far far from another Bush. He has a reputation for pragmatism and has broken party lines and stuck his thumb directly in the conservative eye on many an occasion when he felt it was the right thing to do. Which is likely why he was nominated. He is the only chance for conservatives to keep the White House. But he will be widely characterized as the "next Bush". How has many times has he been characterized that way on this forum alone? And those things start to take on a life of their own, like Mikey and his pop rocks. It is the vast, muddled middle who actually decide elections.

To be fair, it's just the conservatives' turn. Al Gore lost the election in large part because he was associated with Clinton...and he was definitely not the 'next Clinton' either. It's par for the course.

On a personal level, Bush seems like a nice enough guy - maybe a little disingenuous, but I get along with faultier personalities every day. But I really resent what the guy has done to the country. When he somehow got elected in 2000 I was fresh out of law school, and all of the constitutional issues that came up just ate at me, starting with the possible voting shenanegans and the Supreme Court's (non-)involvement. Right on the heels of that came those stupid tax cuts. Then came 9/11 and the Patriot Act, maybe the most speciously named piece of legislation ever. I won't bother to rehash the rest of the long list of blunders that has left the country where we are now.



Although there are some true "Bush-haters" out there, the phrase is definitely overused, and as we have all seen, it has been used to discount some very legitimate criticisms of Bush. There aren't as many full-blown Bush-haters out there as people think - remember, he had huge positive ratings right after 9/11. Almost everybody was behind him at that time.



Right now, I'm pretty close to the negative extreme.



Well, I think the "R" will still be a negative in otherwise close races for a while. Not so much in a Presidential election, though. McCain seems to be pretty free of Bush stink right now, but that might change once the Dems finally shake Hillary off of their pantsleg. Iraq will still be a daily issue on the front page come November, and that war is still going to be seen as a Republican mistake (go ahead and re-post all the old quotes from Dem congresspeople you want, it is still a Bush/Cheney operation).

My hope is that, if things look close, Obama will whip out those clips of McCain kissing Bush's fanny in 2004, and replay them ad nauseum before the vote. Just in case anyone forgets that it's still the Republican Machine calling the shots, and not McCain.

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from “love” on one end to “hate” on the other?

There are seven basic emotions: Fear, Sadness, Anger, Joy, Surprise, Disgust, and Contempt (ref.). Love and hate are learned emotions, and IMHO, have no place in discussing a politician. My feelings are more a visceral disgust and general disdain.

When one neither “loves” nor “hates” a person, but disagrees with every bit of their philosophy (or actions, in this case), you can be disgusted by them and still not “hate” them. Love and hate are such extreme emotions, they take a lot of energy to maintain. Incurious George is not worthy of either love or hate in my opinion. If he weren’t president, he would be the kind of person that would be easy to ignore as ignorant, clueless and unimportant.

2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

Yes, I believe they are. Using the excuse of “love or hate” is too simplistic.

3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

See above
4. What impact will Bush’s continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

I would imagine that distancing oneself from his unpopularity will be a wise move…except to the extreme loyalists who approved Bush's every move, in which case, McCain (aka Bush Lite) will suit them just fine.

He has been mediocre as a Republican president. I would have been more causious on the invasion of Iraq (waited out the UN) and his habit of allowing too many earmarks puts him right up there with the Dems.

That said the rating for members of Congress is about 30% LOWER than Bush.


No. Some people will disagree with him if he said the sky was blue – its called partisan politics – a la NYT, CNN, many NPR affiliates etc.


?

None since the Dems in Congress (which is less popular) are doing little to endear themselves to the public. The very pubic defeat of the “earmarks moratorium” proposed for show by HC and BO show is how little the chance that either of them can “change” anything in Washington – except implement the usual Dem big government big taxes strategy and outspend GWB.

You are conveniently ignoring something, Ted. You are correct in your assertion that Congressional ratings are lower than Bush's. What you fail to take into consideration is that the Congressional figures represent dissatisfaction with both the majority and minority parties. Look at the very last set of poll numbers. People prefer Democrats over Republicans by an average of 11 percent.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/

Questions for debate:

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from Bush hating on one end to Bush loving on the other?
2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?
3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?
4. What impact will Bush continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

I don't know very many people who love Bush or hate him. What I see is people deeply disappointed in his failed economic and foreign policy.

I think dealing with political figures in highly emotive terms will lead to a shallow criticism. Bush deserves better, the WMD propaganda, the recession that started a few months into his administration and will only end with a Democrat President and the open ended conflict in Iraq all deserve deep and serious criticism. He has earned it and I think we are remiss in our duties as Americans to do any less for our President.

I actually like Bush, I just don't like the pro-status quo, supply side Republican aristocracy. I actually like the guy and simply adore the first lady, which by the way, I still have no idea how that elegant lady ended up with such a mediocre guy like Bush, but no matter. On a personal level I'm sure he would be very good company on a fishing trip or someone I would enjoy watching a ballgame with. It's his political agenda, or in some cases the lack of one, that I can't stand about the Bush administration. I could forgive the invasion of Iraq but making bogus claims about the WMDs, even in the State of the Union address is simply unforgivable. I neither love him nor hate him but I get sick of Presidents that think they can lie to us.

McCain is simply going to do what George Bush is doing, only less of it. Honestly, I admire the man but cannot handle the thought of another Republican in the White House. I don't think it will be a landslide but I would predict that the economy under the Bush administration will put a Democrat in the White House. His unpopularity is symptomatic of a far deeper problem, it has been his failed policies with no viable alternative with McCain that will make this happen and there is no doubt in my mind.

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from Bush hating on one end to Bush loving on the other?

I don't hate George W. Bush, but if he were actually trying to get me to hate him by his actions and his attitudes, he wouldn't come closer than he has come by not trying.

2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

Oh, yes, they are ploys. When strong criticism comes up about this particular President, some posters like to characterize the posters as suffering from "Bush Derangement Syndrome." Doesn't do much for the debate, but it is an attempt to make the poster, not the argument, the subject for debate.

3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

The man's attitude and actions disgust me. Sometimes I can almost feel my stomach turn when I hear him on TV talking about the surge working, so we've got to keep the troops there. Or, if there is an increase in violence he has to admit to happening, especially in Baghdad's green zone, we've got to keep the troops there. If Jesus came back, would we have to keep the troops there? I mean, regardless of what is going on and whether it justifies the President's position, BUSH'S WILL BE DONE. He doesn't give a rat's behind about what the country thinks or wants done.

If George W. Bush were in another job or a retiree living next door, I might like him. We might play euchre on Saturdays with Laura and Curmudgeon and I might think that he was a swell guy. But not as the President.

4. What impact will Bush continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

It means that McCain needs to demonstrate that he will not just be McBush carrying out tax cuts for the wealthy during a war, keeping troops there regardless of circumstances on the ground in Iraq and the reasons behind them, or being unwilling to listen to the will of the people as expressed by the elected members of the House and Senate. If he can distance himself successfully from the inanity of this administration, McCain will stand a much better chance of winning in November.

But if McCain looks like Bush II Redux, forget it.

Questions for debate:

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from "love" on one end to "hate" on the other?

Hate would seem to imply the man was still capable of stirring passions within me. I think of him as walking like a lame duck, talking like a lame duck, etc. When he tries to usurp broadcast time from "Days of Our Lies," I just turn the television off. CNN and MSNBC have spent the past few days trying to make sense of his last speak-easy presentation, so we rented Sweeney Todd in order to have something on the television that doesn't offend the senses.

2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

I try to avoid insulting anyone by referring to them as "Bush Lovers," so I suppose that I could take offense at being called a Bush hater...but I am aware that a large portion of the population actually voted for GWB. Perhaps they really do feel that I am insulted by such references.

3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

DOES NOT APPLY! Realistically, I would have a hard time arguing that I am not on an extreme of this continuum.

4. What impact will Bush's continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

With any luck, I will not live long enough to see the Republican Party recover from the fiasco of this administration.

1. What are your thoughts on George W. Bush ranging on a continuum from “love” on one end to “hate” on the other?

I don't have a lot of respect for this man. My interpretation of his life frames him as an icon of everything that is wrong with humanity. Anyone not of the ultra-wealthy elite would have been written-off by friends and family, or imprisoned, decades ago. And then we have the effects of his presidency.


2. Are using phrases like "Bush haters" ploys or talking points to cover up legitimate criticisms of Bush?

This is both a real thing, and a talking point. People are subject to an effect where when they feel strongly about someone, positively or negatively, they are no longer rational. This is in turn used as a ploy to cover actual weaknesses. The trick is recognizing both, and not falling under the spell of the first.


3. If you are not on the extremes of the continuum, how would you term your thoughts about Bush?

I don't think I qualify here, but I'd say that Bush probably did what he thought best for the nation. He just has the wrong motivations, has drawn incorrect lessons from history, and surrounded himself with people who have their own agendas which have nothing to do with improving the lives of Americans.


4. What impact will Bush’s continued unpopularity have on the 2008 election?

First of, the campaign is the Democrats to lose. There is nothing any Republican can say to improve their position right now.

If the Dems win in '08, then the effect will be lost by '12. We are too forgiving a people sometimes.

If McCain wins, somehow then, barring a major shift in policy, they will begin a process whereby they will be mutilated in every national election from that point forward until a Dem wins. We also have a refined sense of fairness. :]

.


Do the MATH BoF. More Dems = more dissatisfaction with that Party – Right? And I say they are both at fault for earmarks and other stupid spending. But then this is not all “Bush” is it.

. And if people only “prefer” Dems by 11% then they are doping badly since they are by far the largest party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Pa...(United_States)

I wouldn't take any great comfort in an 11% edge of those swimming in a cesspool of greed.

I believe that he will be rated as one of the poorest presidents in recent memory. He will make the Carter years look like the golden age. My personal thoughts about him are that he had great promise, but that he quickly squandered it away under hubris. The central item that could've defined his presidency, if not proven his greatness as a leader, was his whole I'm a uniter, not a divider schtick. Has he lived up to that billing? Democrats were routinely left out of the decision making process and his "you are with me, or against me." sith thinking, has lead to division and a war conducted in Iraq under false pretenses. His environmental record is pathetic as EPA scientists were put under political pressure due to his pro-corporate thinking and lackeys who ran the EPA. When it comes to openness of government, Bush's has been one of the most secretive in recent memory. His VP was also in cahoots with big energy big-wigs and can't answer honestly as to wether or not they were setting the nation's energy agenda on behalf of the corporations and against the consumer. Under his tenure, the GOP congress in one particular session, met the shortest number of days, thereby making the '48 congress look like eager beavers. He came in with great promise and talk, he'll leave under a cloud of suspicion, doubt, mistrust, and looking after the wrong segments of society.