Full Version: Children of the polygamous sect-permanent separation?
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has been in the news as of late, especially with the government rushing in and seizing custody of the children of sect members. 
Recent developments have been interesting in this case, as the government has been forced to defend their decision to keep the children separated from their parents. What surprised me the most, is that the vast majority of the children will be pushed into the state foster system if government officials have their way. A few things have me concerned about this move. For one, is the state seriously maintaining that all of the children should be removed due to abuse? How is the determination of abuse to be made in individual cases? If someone isn't abused, will they be returned to their parents? Should they be returned if they aren't abused, but their parents are weird and polygamous? 
It's especially weird as having more than one wife would mean that you have more than one person reminding you to mow the lawn, to take out the trash, that you forgot to hit the hamper, blah, blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag. 
For 2,400 news articles on this story, click here.
Questions for debate:
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
Recent developments have been interesting in this case, as the government has been forced to defend their decision to keep the children separated from their parents. What surprised me the most, is that the vast majority of the children will be pushed into the state foster system if government officials have their way. A few things have me concerned about this move. For one, is the state seriously maintaining that all of the children should be removed due to abuse? How is the determination of abuse to be made in individual cases? If someone isn't abused, will they be returned to their parents? Should they be returned if they aren't abused, but their parents are weird and polygamous? It's especially weird as having more than one wife would mean that you have more than one person reminding you to mow the lawn, to take out the trash, that you forgot to hit the hamper, blah, blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag. For 2,400 news articles on this story, click here.
Questions for debate:
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
There is no simple answer. Each case must be judged on its own merits. It appears as if each child will be represented by a different lawyer, and I see no easier method. Some will no doubt be returned to their parents. Some will no doubt be removed from them.
What makes this case such a huge mess is the deliberate decision of the members of this sect to provide even the most basic co-operation with an outside world they have rejected.
article
From the article linked by the original poster:
From another article posted by the first poster:
Much of this chaos could have been avoided if there were stronger efforts to ensure that every birth is accurately recorded, and that all children be required to attened either public school or officially approved private or home schools.
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
If this turns out to be the case for any particular child, sure. Right now it's best to think of them in "protective custody" until this mess is sorted out.
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
As much as I oppose religious fundamentalism of all kinds -- as tragic as I think the case of children trapped in brainwashing cults is -- the burden of proof should be on the government to provide evidence that these children were neither neglected nor abused. The government has a pretty strong case here when it comes to a couple of points. The fact that many of these children have never gone to school, and that all female children were required to "marry" as soon as they reached puberty should be enough. If those abuses can be stopped, and there are no other forms of neglect or abuse going on, the children should be returned to their families.
Let me make it clear here that, in theory, I fully support the right of genuinely consenting adults to enter into plural marriages. That doesn't seem to be the case here, at least for many of the girls in their early teens.
As a side note, let me point out here that the "marriage" of underage girls to much older men is yet another example of how religious fundamentalism is always associated with male dominance and female submission. That alone is a strong enough reason to reject it, always and everywhere.
There is no simple answer. Each case must be judged on its own merits. It appears as if each child will be represented by a different lawyer, and I see no easier method. Some will no doubt be returned to their parents. Some will no doubt be removed from them.
What makes this case such a huge mess is the deliberate decision of the members of this sect to provide even the most basic co-operation with an outside world they have rejected.
article
QUOTE
While the children and adult women with them are polite to social workers, they are not forthcoming, often giving different names with each interview. "We don't have a problem with evaluation," said Dr. Bruce Perry, a Houston psychiatrist. "We have a problem with cooperation." Simply identifying the children has proved difficult and the state may have to turn to court-approved DNA analysis to confirm relationships and identities.
From the article linked by the original poster:
QUOTE
. . . child welfare officials still can't find birth certificates for many of the children, making parentage and age determinations impossible. She said many of the children don't know who their parents are and many have the same last name but may or may not be related.
From another article posted by the first poster:
QUOTE
Chief among the problems facing the state is how to determine whether 20 girls are adults or minors. State social workers and child advocates trying to represent them are faced with the women and the children purposely giving the wrong names and other misinformation. There are no birth certificates available for these children.
"The children seem to change their names. The adults change their names. The women pass children around, ' . . .
"The children seem to change their names. The adults change their names. The women pass children around, ' . . .
Much of this chaos could have been avoided if there were stronger efforts to ensure that every birth is accurately recorded, and that all children be required to attened either public school or officially approved private or home schools.
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
If this turns out to be the case for any particular child, sure. Right now it's best to think of them in "protective custody" until this mess is sorted out.
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
As much as I oppose religious fundamentalism of all kinds -- as tragic as I think the case of children trapped in brainwashing cults is -- the burden of proof should be on the government to provide evidence that these children were neither neglected nor abused. The government has a pretty strong case here when it comes to a couple of points. The fact that many of these children have never gone to school, and that all female children were required to "marry" as soon as they reached puberty should be enough. If those abuses can be stopped, and there are no other forms of neglect or abuse going on, the children should be returned to their families.
Let me make it clear here that, in theory, I fully support the right of genuinely consenting adults to enter into plural marriages. That doesn't seem to be the case here, at least for many of the girls in their early teens.
As a side note, let me point out here that the "marriage" of underage girls to much older men is yet another example of how religious fundamentalism is always associated with male dominance and female submission. That alone is a strong enough reason to reject it, always and everywhere.
It's high time that the Government crack down on polygamy! If every rich were allowed to have multiple wives, there simply wouldn't be enough women for less wealthy men to find a wife.
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
I hope the State of Texas had a plan in place prior to removing all these children. The foster care program, as it is generally known, is definitely not the place for them. This action by Texas is mind boggling. First of all IMO "mainstream Mormons" are the only people who may have a chance of introducing the children to society as we know it today. It would seem that Texas should have set up "group homes" to handle all of these kids, and allowed the mothers to accompany them, if they wished to do so. If no criminal negligence is found, they should be immediately returned. If the decision had been up to me, I would not have removed anyone until or if evidence existed of criminal behavior.
If cases of abuse can't be proven, they must be returned to their parent(s). If these children don't even know what Crayons are, as suggested on this morming's news broadcast, then this implies an unabelievable naivete which could hardly be handled by the run-of-the-mill foster parent.
IMO I wish they could all successfully separated from this sect, but "successfully" is the operative word here. Unless each and every child is handled by a very skillfull individual(s), I think this whole matter could have an unbelievable SAD outcome!
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
I hope the State of Texas had a plan in place prior to removing all these children. The foster care program, as it is generally known, is definitely not the place for them. This action by Texas is mind boggling. First of all IMO "mainstream Mormons" are the only people who may have a chance of introducing the children to society as we know it today. It would seem that Texas should have set up "group homes" to handle all of these kids, and allowed the mothers to accompany them, if they wished to do so. If no criminal negligence is found, they should be immediately returned. If the decision had been up to me, I would not have removed anyone until or if evidence existed of criminal behavior.
If cases of abuse can't be proven, they must be returned to their parent(s). If these children don't even know what Crayons are, as suggested on this morming's news broadcast, then this implies an unabelievable naivete which could hardly be handled by the run-of-the-mill foster parent.
IMO I wish they could all successfully separated from this sect, but "successfully" is the operative word here. Unless each and every child is handled by a very skillfull individual(s), I think this whole matter could have an unbelievable SAD outcome!
I hope the State of Texas had a plan in place prior to removing all these children. The foster care program, as it is generally known, is definitely not the place for them. This action by Texas is mind boggling. First of all IMO "mainstream Mormons" are the only people who may have a chance of introducing the children to society as we know it today. It would seem that Texas should have set up "group homes" to handle all of these kids, and allowed the mothers to accompany them, if they wished to do so. If no criminal negligence is found, they should be immediately returned. If the decision had been up to me, I would not have removed anyone until or if evidence existed of criminal behavior.
QUOTE
If cases of abuse can't be proven, they must be returned to their parent(s). If these children don't even know what Crayons are, as suggested on this morming's news broadcast, then this implies an unabelievable naivete which could hardly be handled by the run-of-the-mill foster parent.
Excellent commentary on your part here. It turns out that the whole tip from "Sarah" that got this rolling was a bad case of false reporting and charges are pending on the oft-troubled accuser.
QUOTE
IMO I wish they could all successfully separated from this sect, but "successfully" is the operative word here. Unless each and every child is handled by a very skillfull individual(s), I think this whole matter could have an unbelievable SAD outcome!
I think this group is disgusting and is very cult like. At the same time, abhorrence of their views should not repalce the main issue here-which is abuse. Unless every one of those 416 kids has bruises or tells of illegal acts they were forced to do, then the individual cases should be dealt with appropriately. The young boys were abused? I don't think it would take long to figure that out. Surely more than a handful of the mcan be returned. The girls is a bit more problematic as a psychologist testified that they were abused, they just didn't know it since they wre brainwashed at birth(so above hyperlink)
OK, so we're going by what we think is right in society, not by actual reported cases of abuse? 
I'm not quite following that one there.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 19 2008, 04:59 AM) 
I think this group is disgusting and is very cult like. At the same time, abhorrence of their views should not repalce the main issue here-which is abuse. Unless every one of those 416 kids has bruises or tells of illegal acts they were forced to do, then the individual cases should be dealt with appropriately. The young boys were abused? I don't think it would take long to figure that out. Surely more than a handful of the mcan be returned. The girls is a bit more problematic as a psychologist testified that they were abused, they just didn't know it since they wre brainwashed at birth(so above hyperlink) OK, so we're going by what we think is right in society, not by actual reported cases of abuse? I'm not quite following that one there.
OK, so we're going by what we think is right in society, not by actual reported cases of abuse? I'm not quite following that one there.But isn't all religion, "indoctrination" and "brainwashing" by it's very nature? we are told from birth to believe in something we can't see, quantify or measure.
Teaching religion at all is brainwashing.
We might as well start taking all children of all parents, because we "brainwash" them with our values.
If there is no evidence of imminent or ongoing abuse, then the state of Texas needs to get whacked down hard, with mega billions lawsuits and jail time for the officials that made this decision.
It is very, very scary that goverment is allowed to take this kind of power over individuals because thier beliefs fall outside the accepted baptist/catholic norm.
You can shoot someone robbing another guys house in Texas, but you can't raise your child as you see fit- even if it is creepy and scary.
Based on creepy and scary alone, we should probably empty all the trailer courts in Texas of thier children.
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
There is no conclusive evidence that they have been abused, therefore they must be returned.
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
duh, yes.
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences. No man shall be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent. No human authority ought, in any case whatever, to control or interfere with the rights of conscience in matters of religion, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious society or mode of worship. But it shall be the duty of the Legislature to pass such laws as may be necessary to protect equally every religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship.
To guard against transgressions of the high powers herein delegated, we declare that everything in this "Bill of Rights" is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate, and all laws contrary thereto, or to the following provisions, shall be void.
Texas, with regards to the FCLDS, faces a definite conundrum. Polygamy is a part of their religious beliefs.
One thing I'd like to point out is that from a social organization standpoint, this "sect" is not very different from a hippy commune.
I have no use for Mormon theology, and even less for the fundamentalist brand, and the polygamy is definitely one reason (whether here or in the afterlife.) However, what we have going on here is another instance of trampling the Constitution in the interest of "the children." I don't know exactly when folks accepted the notion that our protections against government went out the window when children are involved. Imagine if you will how far a criminal prosecution would proceed if the first warrant was discovered to be completely unfounded... This is going to play out badly for Texas. I don't doubt that they will find some "abuse", and those are scare quotes. The anti-religious bias in Social Services is well known, add anti-wierd bias in too boot with a healthy dose of "oops, better CYA" and we have a recipe for railroading here.
The media's coverage of this is interesting as well. Where is the media's skepticism of government? Tossed out the window when "wierd religious folks" are involved.
There is no conclusive evidence that they have been abused, therefore they must be returned.
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
duh, yes.
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
United States Constitution
Amendment I
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The Texas Constitution
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 6 - FREEDOM OF WORSHIP
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 6 - FREEDOM OF WORSHIP
All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences. No man shall be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent. No human authority ought, in any case whatever, to control or interfere with the rights of conscience in matters of religion, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious society or mode of worship. But it shall be the duty of the Legislature to pass such laws as may be necessary to protect equally every religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship.
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 29 - PROVISIONS OF BILL OF RIGHTS EXCEPTED FROM POWERS OF GOVERNMENT; TO FOREVER REMAIN INVIOLATE
Section 29 - PROVISIONS OF BILL OF RIGHTS EXCEPTED FROM POWERS OF GOVERNMENT; TO FOREVER REMAIN INVIOLATE
To guard against transgressions of the high powers herein delegated, we declare that everything in this "Bill of Rights" is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate, and all laws contrary thereto, or to the following provisions, shall be void.
Texas, with regards to the FCLDS, faces a definite conundrum. Polygamy is a part of their religious beliefs.
One thing I'd like to point out is that from a social organization standpoint, this "sect" is not very different from a hippy commune.
I have no use for Mormon theology, and even less for the fundamentalist brand, and the polygamy is definitely one reason (whether here or in the afterlife.) However, what we have going on here is another instance of trampling the Constitution in the interest of "the children." I don't know exactly when folks accepted the notion that our protections against government went out the window when children are involved. Imagine if you will how far a criminal prosecution would proceed if the first warrant was discovered to be completely unfounded... This is going to play out badly for Texas. I don't doubt that they will find some "abuse", and those are scare quotes. The anti-religious bias in Social Services is well known, add anti-wierd bias in too boot with a healthy dose of "oops, better CYA" and we have a recipe for railroading here.
The media's coverage of this is interesting as well. Where is the media's skepticism of government? Tossed out the window when "wierd religious folks" are involved.
QUOTE
We might as well start taking all children of all parents, because we "brainwash" them with our values.
If there is no evidence of imminent or ongoing abuse, then the state of Texas needs to get whacked down hard, with mega billions lawsuits and jail time for the officials that made this decision.
If there is no evidence of imminent or ongoing abuse, then the state of Texas needs to get whacked down hard, with mega billions lawsuits and jail time for the officials that made this decision.
And that is exactly my point. Their views are odd, but I believe we should go by what the law says, not so much what a psychologist or sociologist would say.
QUOTE
Based on creepy and scary alone, we should probably empty all the trailer courts in Texas of thier children.
I know you jest, but a psychologist could make an argument that it would be for the better in a variety of ways. Perhaps they could be placed in homes where college was more realistic. Where does it end?
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 19 2008, 05:45 PM)
QUOTE
We might as well start taking all children of all parents, because we "brainwash" them with our values.
If there is no evidence of imminent or ongoing abuse, then the state of Texas needs to get whacked down hard, with mega billions lawsuits and jail time for the officials that made this decision.
If there is no evidence of imminent or ongoing abuse, then the state of Texas needs to get whacked down hard, with mega billions lawsuits and jail time for the officials that made this decision.
And that is exactly my point. Their views are odd, but I believe we should go by what the law says, not so much what a psychologist or sociologist would say.
QUOTE
Based on creepy and scary alone, we should probably empty all the trailer courts in Texas of thier children.
I know you jest, but a psychologist could make an argument that it would be for the better in a variety of ways. Perhaps they could be placed in homes where college was more realistic. Where does it end?
yes, I concur- you know how much disdain I have for religion, but, I also understand that our country is founded by people who's beliefs, for those days, was radical and wierd. They rejected established doctrines such as manifest destiny and many of our founding fathers were deists that had no specific doctrine at all- very different than much of the world at the time, at least the world they knew.
I think our country was founded directly for the reasons we are debating right now- to allow people thier creepy and scary beliefs, to abuse thier children and indoctrinate them as they see fit. Or is it raise and teach thier children as they see fit?
I always get the two confused it seems. 
Time gives a person the benefit of more knowledge, and with this case, that is no exception. Turns out that over half of the teenage girls are pregnant or have had a baby. Texas law states that minors under 17 can't give consent to sex with adults unless they have parental permission to marry. If half of the girls fall under this category, then I could see why all the kids were rounded up, especially the female ones from the older male church members. 
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 29 2008, 06:57 AM)
Time gives a person the benefit of more knowledge, and with this case, that is no exception. Turns out that over half of the teenage girls are pregnant or have had a baby. Texas law states that minors under 17 can't give consent to sex with adults unless they have parental permission to marry. If half of the girls fall under this category, then I could see why all the kids were rounded up, especially the female ones from the older male church members.
The problem with this new information is that there is no proof that the girls were impregnated by their spiritual husbands. There is no law against a minor getting knocked up by another minor. Such proof however will have to come from involuntary DNA tests made of the "victims". Which leads to further arguments about personal rights and their abuse. And we come back again to the questionable nature of the warrant. This abused teenager still has not been found, and as abuse allegations were based upon this single witness' calls there should be some determination over the state's rights and responsibilities towards protecting these child brides, vs. the rights of parents to practice their religion. Especially considering the marriage laws vary by state and in some states a marriage, traditional as opposed to spiritual, is perfectly legal for minors with parental consent. This case simply stinks up the legal system and screams out religious persecution.
.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned? Imminent danger is the standard that is suppose to be used to remove a child from the custody of his parents. If young girls 12-17 are being victims of statutory rape, then it could be argued that they are in imminent danger of harm and should be removed. Since there has been no conclusive evidence of abuse towards young children or teen boys, they should be returned to their parents.
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent? See above.
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect? If parents agree to comply with the law and not permit sexual relations with minors, I think children should be returned. The exception would be any teen girls that prefer to remain in state custody.
Check out their website: www.captivefldskids.org
The kids do appear happy and well cared for in their videos in contrast to what they are experiencing in state custody. The state is simply a lousy parent.
When this group was raided in 1953, the complaint was solely against polygamy. Today's society does not care about polygamy, but since we have raised the marriage age and made stiffer statutory rape laws that is what they are targeted for now.
It does appear that it has devolved into a cult for pedophiles and their victims. I do not have any sympathy towards men who are systematically raping young girls. However, my heart goes out towards all the little children crying for their mothers and all the mothers (and even some of the fathers) who are truly crying for their children. I can not believe that all of these children are better off with the state. So much for innocent until proven guilty.
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent? See above.
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect? If parents agree to comply with the law and not permit sexual relations with minors, I think children should be returned. The exception would be any teen girls that prefer to remain in state custody.
Check out their website: www.captivefldskids.org
The kids do appear happy and well cared for in their videos in contrast to what they are experiencing in state custody. The state is simply a lousy parent.
When this group was raided in 1953, the complaint was solely against polygamy. Today's society does not care about polygamy, but since we have raised the marriage age and made stiffer statutory rape laws that is what they are targeted for now.
It does appear that it has devolved into a cult for pedophiles and their victims. I do not have any sympathy towards men who are systematically raping young girls. However, my heart goes out towards all the little children crying for their mothers and all the mothers (and even some of the fathers) who are truly crying for their children. I can not believe that all of these children are better off with the state. So much for innocent until proven guilty.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 15 2008, 09:30 PM)
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has been in the news as of late, especially with the government rushing in and seizing custody of the children of sect members. Recent developments have been interesting in this case, as the government has been forced to defend their decision to keep the children separated from their parents. What surprised me the most, is that the vast majority of the children will be pushed into the state foster system if government officials have their way. A few things have me concerned about this move. For one, is the state seriously maintaining that all of the children should be removed due to abuse? How is the determination of abuse to be made in individual cases? If someone isn't abused, will they be returned to their parents? Should they be returned if they aren't abused, but their parents are weird and polygamous? It's especially weird as having more than one wife would mean that you have more than one person reminding you to mow the lawn, to take out the trash, that you forgot to hit the hamper, blah, blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag.
For 2,400 news articles on this story, click here.
Questions for debate:
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
Recent developments have been interesting in this case, as the government has been forced to defend their decision to keep the children separated from their parents. What surprised me the most, is that the vast majority of the children will be pushed into the state foster system if government officials have their way. A few things have me concerned about this move. For one, is the state seriously maintaining that all of the children should be removed due to abuse? How is the determination of abuse to be made in individual cases? If someone isn't abused, will they be returned to their parents? Should they be returned if they aren't abused, but their parents are weird and polygamous? It's especially weird as having more than one wife would mean that you have more than one person reminding you to mow the lawn, to take out the trash, that you forgot to hit the hamper, blah, blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag. For 2,400 news articles on this story, click here.
Questions for debate:
1.)What should happen to the 416 children of the sect? What conclusive evidence exists that suggests they should be in foster care or returned?
2.)In cases where abuse can't be proven, should the children be reunited with their parents or a parent?
3.)In your personal opinion, to what extent should the children be separated from this sect?
I just do not see any good answers to this problem. Separating kids from parents is awful; what appears to have occurred in this compound is awful. My prayers go out to all of them. I just do not see any clear path.
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