Full Version: McCain's Foreign Policy Platform
Today at lunch I read a disturbing article from Fareed Zakaria in Newsweek. In it he reviews a speech that McCain delivered in March that was dubbed "his most comprehensive" foreign policy speech yet. In it contained some disturbing proposals:
Zakaria is admittedly a fan of McCain's and is thus troubled by some of this approach:
The exclusion of Russia from the G8 was particularly troubling:
Questions for Debate:
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
edited to add: here is a copy of McCain's speech transcript from his site.
QUOTE
In his speech McCain proposed that the United States expel Russia from the G8, the group of advanced industrial countries. Moscow was included in this body in the 1990s to recognize and reward it for peacefully ending the cold war on Western terms, dismantling the Soviet empire and withdrawing from large chunks of the old Russian Empire as well. McCain also proposed that the United States should expand the G8 by taking in India and Brazil€”but pointedly excluded China from the councils of power.(emphasis mine)
Zakaria is admittedly a fan of McCain's and is thus troubled by some of this approach:
QUOTE
I write this with sadness because I greatly admire John McCain, a man of intelligence, honor and enormous personal and political courage. I also agree with much of what else he said in that speech in Los Angeles. But in recent years, McCain has turned into a foreign-policy schizophrenic, alternating between neoconservative posturing and realist common sense. His speech reads like it was written by two very different people, each one given an allotment of a few paragraphs on every topic.
The exclusion of Russia from the G8 was particularly troubling:
QUOTE
The single most important security problem that the United States faces is securing loose nuclear materials. A terrorist group can pose an existential threat to the global order only by getting hold of such material. We also have an interest in stopping proliferation, particularly by rogue regimes like Iran and North Korea. To achieve both of these core objectives€”which would make American safe and the world more secure€”we need Russian cooperation. How fulsome is that likely to be if we gratuitously initiate hostilities with Moscow? Dissing dictators might make for a stirring speech, but ordinary Americans will have to live with the complications after the applause dies down.
Questions for Debate:
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
edited to add: here is a copy of McCain's speech transcript from his site.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
What "ability" exactly do we have now? Seems to me our current policy hasn't worked all that well with places like Iran where the Russians continue to assist them in their nuclear program and resist efforts in the UN Security Council to stop it. The Russians can't have it both ways.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
Higher prices and less lead at Wal-Mart maybe? Otherwise it would hurt the Chinese economy worse than ours.
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
I'm not quite sure of the link between "credibility" and bending over and spreading them to the Chinese and Russians. We've been doing that far too long as it is. Back in the 1980's a whole bunch of namby-pamby liberals told Ronald Reagan not to be too "mean" to the Soviet Union in the misguided belief that if we played nice with them, they'd play nice with us and everything would be okay. Some sort of utopia I guess. Yeah, right a "utopia" where the only thing stopping a nuclear war was the concept that both Super-powers would destroy each other. Reagan told those little liberal whimps to shove it and confronted the Soviets. He refused to back down to them in Iceland when they demanded he stop SDI and before he went to Berlin he kept putting the "tear down this wall" line back in his speech despite the efforts on the part of some in the State Department to take it out He called the Soviets barbarians when they shot down a civilian airliner (KAL 007), and what happened? That wall came down and the Soviet Union ceased to exist as the evil empire (another Reagan term) that it was.
Now I know this ticks off the liberals and Reagan-haters here. So, they try to re-write history and deny these things ever happened. But, they did, and now we confront new challenges. McCain's approach is the correct approach, history has proven that. The Carter approach which is looking the other way and trying to make nice didn't work then and it won't work now.
Aquilla
What "ability" exactly do we have now? Seems to me our current policy hasn't worked all that well with places like Iran where the Russians continue to assist them in their nuclear program and resist efforts in the UN Security Council to stop it. The Russians can't have it both ways.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
Higher prices and less lead at Wal-Mart maybe? Otherwise it would hurt the Chinese economy worse than ours.
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
I'm not quite sure of the link between "credibility" and bending over and spreading them to the Chinese and Russians. We've been doing that far too long as it is. Back in the 1980's a whole bunch of namby-pamby liberals told Ronald Reagan not to be too "mean" to the Soviet Union in the misguided belief that if we played nice with them, they'd play nice with us and everything would be okay. Some sort of utopia I guess. Yeah, right a "utopia" where the only thing stopping a nuclear war was the concept that both Super-powers would destroy each other. Reagan told those little liberal whimps to shove it and confronted the Soviets. He refused to back down to them in Iceland when they demanded he stop SDI and before he went to Berlin he kept putting the "tear down this wall" line back in his speech despite the efforts on the part of some in the State Department to take it out He called the Soviets barbarians when they shot down a civilian airliner (KAL 007), and what happened? That wall came down and the Soviet Union ceased to exist as the evil empire (another Reagan term) that it was.
Now I know this ticks off the liberals and Reagan-haters here. So, they try to re-write history and deny these things ever happened. But, they did, and now we confront new challenges. McCain's approach is the correct approach, history has proven that. The Carter approach which is looking the other way and trying to make nice didn't work then and it won't work now.
Aquilla
Great topic Doc. Since this is election 2008, do we have any idea where the Democrats stand on this?
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
The first thing that we have to realize is that the G8 is an informal group. It's not like the IMF or UN. It's basically a club where member states talk about cooperation opportunities and world problems like the evironment, trade, health care, and hunger. Kicking Russia out of the club would strain relations obviously, but I don't see what that has to do with them securing nuclear materials. It's not really in Russia's interest to have more nuclear states than it is in our interests.
Putin has been moving Russia back into a more state controlled KGB environment for years. McCain is just making a point that he doesn't approve of the path toward oppression that Russia is taking and doesn't see the advantage of having informal talks with a country that is becoming less trustworthy in terms of delivering on their promises.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8? China is already in the outreach 5 countries that meet with the G8 to discuss economic issues. Again, the G8 is like a club. It isn't in Chinese interests to raise a fit over it and hurt their own economy over membership into a non-binding group like the G8.
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
Isolating is a bit dramatic IMO. McCain is looking to create alliances. He just wants the alliances to be with two of the other largest players on the global stage in India and Brazil. Which set offers the more common ground to work together on? China is 90% atheist and so the religion over there is basically Nationalism. I can't name a single thing that China has done out of altruism for the globe in the past 20 years so why would they be a good partner in a G8 that deals with these issues? In short, McCain is just saying - America supports Democratic freedom and those wishing to promote it. I applaud him for not selling out the citizens of these nations.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
The first thing that we have to realize is that the G8 is an informal group. It's not like the IMF or UN. It's basically a club where member states talk about cooperation opportunities and world problems like the evironment, trade, health care, and hunger. Kicking Russia out of the club would strain relations obviously, but I don't see what that has to do with them securing nuclear materials. It's not really in Russia's interest to have more nuclear states than it is in our interests.
Putin has been moving Russia back into a more state controlled KGB environment for years. McCain is just making a point that he doesn't approve of the path toward oppression that Russia is taking and doesn't see the advantage of having informal talks with a country that is becoming less trustworthy in terms of delivering on their promises.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8? China is already in the outreach 5 countries that meet with the G8 to discuss economic issues. Again, the G8 is like a club. It isn't in Chinese interests to raise a fit over it and hurt their own economy over membership into a non-binding group like the G8.
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
Isolating is a bit dramatic IMO. McCain is looking to create alliances. He just wants the alliances to be with two of the other largest players on the global stage in India and Brazil. Which set offers the more common ground to work together on? China is 90% atheist and so the religion over there is basically Nationalism. I can't name a single thing that China has done out of altruism for the globe in the past 20 years so why would they be a good partner in a G8 that deals with these issues? In short, McCain is just saying - America supports Democratic freedom and those wishing to promote it. I applaud him for not selling out the citizens of these nations.
QUOTE
Great topic Doc. Since this is election 2008, do we have any idea where the Democrats stand on this?
I'll leave that for another topic, since I really didn't address it in the questions. I'd really like to get back to an honest policy discussion and I found this article today during lunch. Feel free to start another about the Democrats in this respect if you like
Here is a lengthy paper written by McCain and published in Foreign Affairs that details his foreign policy objectives.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
I don't think kicking Russia out of the G8 would be a good idea. We have many common interests and isolating them (further) in this way would be counter-productive. Just a few short years ago, our relationship with Russia was at an all-time high (since before the red revolution at least). I think we lost a great opportunity in the past six or seven years and I'd hate to see the relationship strained further in this way. I also disagree with McCain on his statements regarding the NATO alliance, but I don't think his thoughts differ from those of the Democrats in that respect.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
Probably none. I actually do think we should exclude China from the G8 for the time being. There's a difference, symbolically, between not letting a nation in and kicking one out. I personally agree with McCain's sentiments regarding China.
QUOTE
A decade and a half ago, the Russian people threw off the tyranny of communism and seemed determined to build a democracy and a free market and to join the West. Today, we see in Russia diminishing political freedoms, a leadership dominated by a clique of former intelligence officers, efforts to bully democratic neighbors, such as Georgia, and attempts to manipulate Europe's dependence on Russian oil and gas. We need a new Western approach to this revanchist Russia. We should start by ensuring that the G-8, the group of eight highly industrialized states, becomes again a club of leading market democracies: it should include Brazil and India but exclude Russia. Rather than tolerate Russia's nuclear blackmail or cyberattacks, Western nations should make clear that the solidarity of NATO, from the Baltic to the Black Sea, is indivisible and that the organization's doors remain open to all democracies committed to the defense of freedom. We must also increase our programs supporting freedom and the rule of law in Russia and emphasize that genuine partnership remains open to Moscow if it desires it but that such a partnership would involve a commitment to being a responsible actor, internationally and domestically.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
I don't think kicking Russia out of the G8 would be a good idea. We have many common interests and isolating them (further) in this way would be counter-productive. Just a few short years ago, our relationship with Russia was at an all-time high (since before the red revolution at least). I think we lost a great opportunity in the past six or seven years and I'd hate to see the relationship strained further in this way. I also disagree with McCain on his statements regarding the NATO alliance, but I don't think his thoughts differ from those of the Democrats in that respect.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
Probably none. I actually do think we should exclude China from the G8 for the time being. There's a difference, symbolically, between not letting a nation in and kicking one out. I personally agree with McCain's sentiments regarding China.
Let's start out with a decent definition of what the G8 is:
Wiki on the G8
So these ministries from eight of the world's economic and military leaders get together every so often and figure things out. Russia is part of the gang. China is sometimes part of the gang (G8 + 5), as are four other countries.
I'm not clear as to what the G8 has ever done that impacted anything. Looks like a party for world leaders to mingle and yak about stuff, who knows what. Certainly the meetings have a history of attracting protests.
It all started from the oil crisis of the 1970s. What are we going to do about OPEC? Well, drive smaller cars, that's what. Turn down the thermostats during winter, wear sweaters, start building out alternative energy. I guess that scared OPEC out of its nitwitfits.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
I don't know. Is that something that the G8 discusses? Might be, so I think we should keep inviting them to the party.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
Probably none. China needs the Western markets, so there's the clout. At the same time the West needs the emerging Chinese markets. It would be really cool if the US were to figure out alternative energy and sell it to China as an economically viable way of getting off coal. But then I don't think McCain will ever be allowed to go down that route. Ah, I hear a campaign chant: "No New Mistakes!"
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
For winning a national election, maybe so. That'll depend on if the nation goes for isolationism or not. I don't think it'll fly, but things can change.
Personally I think we ought to expand the G8 party. The more we can get these people to talk, the better. Maybe they'll eventually realize that we are in just a single boat, so don't poke holes in it.
Wiki on the G8
So these ministries from eight of the world's economic and military leaders get together every so often and figure things out. Russia is part of the gang. China is sometimes part of the gang (G8 + 5), as are four other countries.
I'm not clear as to what the G8 has ever done that impacted anything. Looks like a party for world leaders to mingle and yak about stuff, who knows what. Certainly the meetings have a history of attracting protests.
It all started from the oil crisis of the 1970s. What are we going to do about OPEC? Well, drive smaller cars, that's what. Turn down the thermostats during winter, wear sweaters, start building out alternative energy. I guess that scared OPEC out of its nitwitfits.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
I don't know. Is that something that the G8 discusses? Might be, so I think we should keep inviting them to the party.
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
Probably none. China needs the Western markets, so there's the clout. At the same time the West needs the emerging Chinese markets. It would be really cool if the US were to figure out alternative energy and sell it to China as an economically viable way of getting off coal. But then I don't think McCain will ever be allowed to go down that route. Ah, I hear a campaign chant: "No New Mistakes!"
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
For winning a national election, maybe so. That'll depend on if the nation goes for isolationism or not. I don't think it'll fly, but things can change.
Personally I think we ought to expand the G8 party. The more we can get these people to talk, the better. Maybe they'll eventually realize that we are in just a single boat, so don't poke holes in it.
QUOTE(AuthorMusician)
I don't know. Is that something that the G8 discusses? Might be, so I think we should keep inviting them to the party.
In hindsight I realized that I didn't provide sufficient context to the question. Its not so much a topic for the G8, but an issue that excluding Russia might do further damage to our already shaky relationship with them, the result of which may hamper our efforts to curb nuclear proliferation, particularly in the area of securing existing stockpiles like in the former states of the Soviet Union.
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 2 2008, 06:31 AM) 
I don't think kicking Russia out of the G8 would be a good idea. We have many common interests and isolating them (further) in this way would be counter-productive. Just a few short years ago, our relationship with Russia was at an all-time high (since before the red revolution at least). I think we lost a great opportunity in the past six or seven years and I'd hate to see the relationship strained further in this way.
You and I don't disagree too often, but I don't follow you this time Mrs P. I feel that Russia has pulled back toward a more state controlled environment that surpresses the press and jails opposition because of the Bush/Rice Forgive Russia policies. While friendly, I don't see how this has led to an all-time high for an alliance with our two countries. What exactly has Russia been doing to make them an ally of the US? What major partnership moves have been made?
Russian Gary Kasparov called this "one of the worst blunders of U.S. foreign policy" and I tend to stand with his opinion in its entirety. If his assertions that "Russia continues to supply Iran with nuclear technology and has done next to nothing to thwart the North Koreans' pursuit of Russian technology to advance their intercontinental-ballistic-missile program"(the second half I don't think can even be disputed) are correct then sending a very small message about exclusion from the G8 is proper. Wouldn't you agree that shifting from the obviously failed Bush/Rice policy toward Russia is a good thing? I agree with you that we've missing a great opportunity with Russia and that implies that we need to do something differently. Playing nice hasn't worked so well.
Thanks Mrs P for the link to the whole article- very informative, and I hate debating a sound bite rather than the whole nuanced paper a candidate might have written- 
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
Uh, no, we are the biggest threat to peace and security in the world- we are the main destabilizer on the planet now- we have become aggressive and oppressive - it is not that we don't like dictatorships WE LOVE dicatatorships- as long as they play ball with the US and not others.
- Okay- China has Zimbabwe, Burma (myamar) and Sudan- we will see those hell-holes and raise you one Saudi Arabia, Kosovo (where we recently let go a genocidal maniac and just created a new, shiny islamic nation that sponsors state terrorism), and on and on. Remember- America doesn't love freedom in other countries- it loves genocidal maniacs that do our bidding.
So- there are going to be lots and lots of mini-arms races in order to keep the US out of others affairs- nukes is the main thing that keeps us from invading others- why we haven't tried it with North Korea. And won't with pakistan as they move towards another fundamentalist islamic state.
It is quite clearly rogue elements earlier in Putin's rule that started the instability with nuclear materials- but I am pretty sure Putin has sewn that up, and you really shouldn't believe ANYTHING that our state department spews from it's cake hole about, well, anything. The US is no better than Bahgdad bob when it comes to accurately and honestly reporting on other countries nuclear and WMD program.
You have to be pretty moronic to sit down and drink in any statement made by the state department regarding WMD and nuclear programs in another country. We have lied too many times on this already.
Yellow cake anyone
If we start attempting to throw our weight around with Russia- it will have exactly the opposite effect- in fact, it empowers the rulers of Russia even more.
Putin is possibly the most popular leader Russia has ever had in it's history- it would strengthen his party and his power base immensely to get into another arms race- while they have cash to burn now.
Russia's economic rebuilding is based on thier massive oil production- which is growing all the time- they have energy to burn- you know how much gas costs in Russia right now? 88cents a gallon.
Who do you think gets hurt if we start screwing with them? Europe sure as hell isn't going to rock the apple cart- Europe would toss us out before we could toss Russia out- they need Russia FAR more than they need us- it is where they get thier oil from man!
Russia is a "turtle" country- they have weathered some pretty horrific attacks on thier soil and are completely xenophobic- and, post kruchev, completely un-imperialistic. Thier #1 desire it to protect thier borders and rebuild thier country. Try to screw with that- and WE are the ones that will be waking the next sleeping giant.
Quite frankly- Russia doesn't need us, we need them.
I would love to find something I could export to them- but they want precious little the US has to offer- unless you count pirated CDs
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
It's a pipe dream- won't happen. What happens when China needs to start selling off our treasury bonds they own right now? If we harm thier economy- or lock them out- there are lots of markets they would head too, and selling off those treasury bonds would harm our economy nearly as much as anything we could do to thiers.
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
John McSame is a dinosaur for real- he is still living in the 50s. and it shows. Go retire already and let those that understand global issues run the world.
Personally- don't even think it will amount to a blip on the non-aligned voters radar- things like our own domestic problems and the Iraq war will be the real issue in this race.
Heck - it shows when he mentions singapore- a brual totalitarian state that micro-manages every aspect of life there- except free trade- proving that you can have nearly unrestricted free trade and have a regime so oppresive they tell you where you can spit and ban bubble gum.
You want to overthrow a brutal regime- singapore is a good place to start.
1. What impact would excluding Russia from the G8 have on our ability to secure existing nuclear materials? Could we still be effective in generating global cooperation on this critical endeavor?
Uh, no, we are the biggest threat to peace and security in the world- we are the main destabilizer on the planet now- we have become aggressive and oppressive - it is not that we don't like dictatorships WE LOVE dicatatorships- as long as they play ball with the US and not others.
- Okay- China has Zimbabwe, Burma (myamar) and Sudan- we will see those hell-holes and raise you one Saudi Arabia, Kosovo (where we recently let go a genocidal maniac and just created a new, shiny islamic nation that sponsors state terrorism), and on and on. Remember- America doesn't love freedom in other countries- it loves genocidal maniacs that do our bidding. So- there are going to be lots and lots of mini-arms races in order to keep the US out of others affairs- nukes is the main thing that keeps us from invading others- why we haven't tried it with North Korea. And won't with pakistan as they move towards another fundamentalist islamic state.
It is quite clearly rogue elements earlier in Putin's rule that started the instability with nuclear materials- but I am pretty sure Putin has sewn that up, and you really shouldn't believe ANYTHING that our state department spews from it's cake hole about, well, anything. The US is no better than Bahgdad bob when it comes to accurately and honestly reporting on other countries nuclear and WMD program.
You have to be pretty moronic to sit down and drink in any statement made by the state department regarding WMD and nuclear programs in another country. We have lied too many times on this already.
Yellow cake anyone
If we start attempting to throw our weight around with Russia- it will have exactly the opposite effect- in fact, it empowers the rulers of Russia even more.
Putin is possibly the most popular leader Russia has ever had in it's history- it would strengthen his party and his power base immensely to get into another arms race- while they have cash to burn now.
Russia's economic rebuilding is based on thier massive oil production- which is growing all the time- they have energy to burn- you know how much gas costs in Russia right now? 88cents a gallon.
Who do you think gets hurt if we start screwing with them? Europe sure as hell isn't going to rock the apple cart- Europe would toss us out before we could toss Russia out- they need Russia FAR more than they need us- it is where they get thier oil from man!
Russia is a "turtle" country- they have weathered some pretty horrific attacks on thier soil and are completely xenophobic- and, post kruchev, completely un-imperialistic. Thier #1 desire it to protect thier borders and rebuild thier country. Try to screw with that- and WE are the ones that will be waking the next sleeping giant.
Quite frankly- Russia doesn't need us, we need them.
I would love to find something I could export to them- but they want precious little the US has to offer- unless you count pirated CDs
2. What economic repercussions would the US sustain by trying to exclude China from the G8?
It's a pipe dream- won't happen. What happens when China needs to start selling off our treasury bonds they own right now? If we harm thier economy- or lock them out- there are lots of markets they would head too, and selling off those treasury bonds would harm our economy nearly as much as anything we could do to thiers.
3. At this time in our precarious state of international credibility, is it wise for a major presidential candidate to advocate isolating two of the largest players on the global stage?
John McSame is a dinosaur for real- he is still living in the 50s. and it shows. Go retire already and let those that understand global issues run the world.
Personally- don't even think it will amount to a blip on the non-aligned voters radar- things like our own domestic problems and the Iraq war will be the real issue in this race.
Heck - it shows when he mentions singapore- a brual totalitarian state that micro-manages every aspect of life there- except free trade- proving that you can have nearly unrestricted free trade and have a regime so oppresive they tell you where you can spit and ban bubble gum.
You want to overthrow a brutal regime- singapore is a good place to start.
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.