Full Version: Evangelicism in the Army- what to do about it?
I had thought the Army was amending it's ways a bit in matters of faith after denying Bob Barr's, er, request to bar (pun not intended? 
) Wiccan worship on bases way back in 1999
http://www.witchvox.com/military/bobbarr.html
(Note- this story was a web search- it originally ran in Atlanta Journal-Constitution Sunday Edition, back in 1999- this was the only way I could link it- if anyone doubts the accuracy of the reporting on this- please say why?)
However, a suit was filed recently by an athiest that claims to have been retaliated against for NOT being christian:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091807R.shtml
Last month, the Pentagon's Inspector General responded to a complaint filed last year by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation alleging that Defense Department officials violated military regulations by appearing in a video promoting a fundamental Christian organization.
The Inspector General agreed and issued a 47-page report that was highly critical of senior Army and Air Force personnel for participating in the video while in uniform and on active duty.
The report recommended that Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack Catton, Army Brig. Gen. Bob Caslen, Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, Maj. Gen. Peter Sutton, and a colonel and lieutenant colonel whose names were redacted in the inspector general's report, "improperly endorsed and participated with a non-Federal entity while in uniform" and the men should be disciplined for misconduct. Caslen was formerly the deputy director for political-military affairs for the war on terrorism, directorate for strategic plans and policy, joint staff. He now oversees the 4,200 cadets at the US Military Academy at West Point. Caslen told DOD investigators he agreed to appear in the video upon learning other senior Pentagon officials had been interviewed for the promotional video.
The inspector general's report recommended the "Secretary of the Air Force and the Chief of Staff of the Army take appropriate corrective action with respect to the military officers concerned."
The Army generals who appeared in the video appeared to be speaking on behalf of the military, but they did not obtain prior permission to appear in the video. They defended their actions, according to the inspector general's report, saying the "Christian Embassy had become a 'quasi-Federal entity,' since the DOD had endorsed the organization to General Officers for over 25 years."
http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-...l_harassed.html
An Army Specialist, Jeremy Hall, who is on active duty at Combat Operations Base Speicher, Iraq, is in this dire situation solely because of his atheistic beliefs, and the fact that he declined to participate in a Christian prayer ceremony commemorating the Thanksgiving Holiday.
So, questions of the day:
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
What do you believe should be done about this?
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
) Wiccan worship on bases way back in 1999 http://www.witchvox.com/military/bobbarr.html
(Note- this story was a web search- it originally ran in Atlanta Journal-Constitution Sunday Edition, back in 1999- this was the only way I could link it- if anyone doubts the accuracy of the reporting on this- please say why?)
However, a suit was filed recently by an athiest that claims to have been retaliated against for NOT being christian:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091807R.shtml
Last month, the Pentagon's Inspector General responded to a complaint filed last year by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation alleging that Defense Department officials violated military regulations by appearing in a video promoting a fundamental Christian organization.
The Inspector General agreed and issued a 47-page report that was highly critical of senior Army and Air Force personnel for participating in the video while in uniform and on active duty.
The report recommended that Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack Catton, Army Brig. Gen. Bob Caslen, Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, Maj. Gen. Peter Sutton, and a colonel and lieutenant colonel whose names were redacted in the inspector general's report, "improperly endorsed and participated with a non-Federal entity while in uniform" and the men should be disciplined for misconduct. Caslen was formerly the deputy director for political-military affairs for the war on terrorism, directorate for strategic plans and policy, joint staff. He now oversees the 4,200 cadets at the US Military Academy at West Point. Caslen told DOD investigators he agreed to appear in the video upon learning other senior Pentagon officials had been interviewed for the promotional video.
The inspector general's report recommended the "Secretary of the Air Force and the Chief of Staff of the Army take appropriate corrective action with respect to the military officers concerned."
The Army generals who appeared in the video appeared to be speaking on behalf of the military, but they did not obtain prior permission to appear in the video. They defended their actions, according to the inspector general's report, saying the "Christian Embassy had become a 'quasi-Federal entity,' since the DOD had endorsed the organization to General Officers for over 25 years."
http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-...l_harassed.html
An Army Specialist, Jeremy Hall, who is on active duty at Combat Operations Base Speicher, Iraq, is in this dire situation solely because of his atheistic beliefs, and the fact that he declined to participate in a Christian prayer ceremony commemorating the Thanksgiving Holiday.
So, questions of the day:
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
What do you believe should be done about this?
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
Here is the "Burning Times Award" given to Bob Barr by ReligiousTolerance.org for his opposition to Wicca in the American military.
Link
I find all of this utterly bizarre, since Barr claims to be a Libertarian. Since this happened way back in 1999, I hope he has changed his tune since.
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
There is a lot of evidence to suggest so. I have also read quite a few articles about "atheists in foxholes" (mostly courtesy of the publication Freethought Today) dealing with the way they face intolerance within the military. Here's a speech by someone who faced this sort of thing at the United States Air Force Academy.
Link
What do you believe should be done about this?
If there is proof that officers of the United States military were engaged in religious persecution, they should answer for their violations in front of a court. This kind of thing should never be tolerated within the armed forces.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
It depends on the degree of the violation. The proper punishment might be anything from a warning to dishonorable discharge. Certainly, the offense is more severe the higher the rank of the officer involved, given that officer's greater power over those of lower rank.
Let me make it clear here that, since members of the military are often isolated from a "normal" environment, it is only proper for the military to provide clergy and religious texts and services for its members. (For which sects? That's a matter of judgement, but certainly for any faith which claims a reasonable number of members.) What is never proper is for officers to place any pressure at all on members of the military to participate in religious activities.
Link
QUOTE
On 1999-MAY-13, he issued a press release titled:
"BARR: CAUSES OF YOUTH VIOLENCE FOUND IN ADULT CULTURE."
He lists as one of the causes of youth violence the practice by the U.S. military to permit Wiccan personnel to observe their religious faith.
. . .
A second source of youth violence that he cites is the increasing acceptance by university students of humanism, a secular, non-theistic philosophy with a strong ethical component.
"BARR: CAUSES OF YOUTH VIOLENCE FOUND IN ADULT CULTURE."
He lists as one of the causes of youth violence the practice by the U.S. military to permit Wiccan personnel to observe their religious faith.
. . .
A second source of youth violence that he cites is the increasing acceptance by university students of humanism, a secular, non-theistic philosophy with a strong ethical component.
I find all of this utterly bizarre, since Barr claims to be a Libertarian. Since this happened way back in 1999, I hope he has changed his tune since.
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
There is a lot of evidence to suggest so. I have also read quite a few articles about "atheists in foxholes" (mostly courtesy of the publication Freethought Today) dealing with the way they face intolerance within the military. Here's a speech by someone who faced this sort of thing at the United States Air Force Academy.
Link
QUOTE
The cadets at the Air Force Academy were marched into Mitchell Hall, the big two-acre building, standing at attention, to watch this film. [The Passion of the Christ] For three straight days, flyers advertising how they would all need to go see that movie were placed on their plates during mess.
What do you believe should be done about this?
If there is proof that officers of the United States military were engaged in religious persecution, they should answer for their violations in front of a court. This kind of thing should never be tolerated within the armed forces.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
It depends on the degree of the violation. The proper punishment might be anything from a warning to dishonorable discharge. Certainly, the offense is more severe the higher the rank of the officer involved, given that officer's greater power over those of lower rank.
Let me make it clear here that, since members of the military are often isolated from a "normal" environment, it is only proper for the military to provide clergy and religious texts and services for its members. (For which sects? That's a matter of judgement, but certainly for any faith which claims a reasonable number of members.) What is never proper is for officers to place any pressure at all on members of the military to participate in religious activities.
Ah, darn- there is a whole list of burial religious symbols that are the "accepted" symbols- but if you note in my story- I believe the chaplain himself actually provided him his athiest- um, stuff?( I haven't been accepted or asked to join the athiest club- don't know how it works exactly- can you tell someone to go to hell and not violate some rule? 
)
I believe it was a commanding officer that really pushed the issue.
) I believe it was a commanding officer that really pushed the issue.
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
Seems obvious to me that this is strong discrimination against what one thinks is true or not. When it comes right down to it, it's a power play, which is what the military is all about -- break you down, then build you back into what the military believes you ought to be. Be all you can be, but only by our rules. Works great for fighting war or building corporations. Sucks if you want to be a free human being, and this is an ancient situation. It's a fundamental characteristic of life -- some people want to control, others need to be controlled, and then there are the radicals who refuse both ways of life.
Which is something that happens now and again.
What do you believe should be done about this?
I believe in music and the magic of a young girl's heart. I suppose we could punish those who try to control others, but it won't work. This is so much a part of humanity that it'll never go away until the species dies out. My advice to those who wish to live free is to get used to persecution. Avoid those situations that invite persecution. Learn how to take persecution, because it'll go on until you're a ripe old age. Or maybe younger, it depends on where you start.
And then you might find peace. Seems there's a limit to how long they can keep it up. A lot of them have died out, from what I've seen. (Heh, outliving all the bahstahds -- cool) That tends to lower the volume of the voices. Also age gives an attitude of not giving a shot what others believe, pretend to believe, fake think, and so on. Many people are frauds their whole lives, which is sad. That seems to have a connection with real courage, not the desperate acts of people scared shootless. They give you medals for that. Real courage has its own reward.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
The only corrective action to take for arrogance is to let it fall on its own face. But, one can still fight it. It's the work of youth to raise a fuss about arrogance, which takes a certain amount of arrogance too. I remember it well. It was worth it.
Yep, we can try to punish those who believe they are right and you are wrong, regarding spiritual matters. In the end it's just a bunch of advanced monkeys who don't know squat yammering away at each other, playing tricks, doing monkey things . . . somewhat entertaining to those observing from afar and thinking:
Not very far from the trees, are we.
So yeah, fight the injustices and cruelties of ignorance. They can't help it and really, youth has to fight back. You're nothing if you don't. Age should back up the fight, but as we know, this doesn't happen very often due to, well, people being royally screwed up. Even in uniform, even with mil specs, even with mansions on the hill, gated communities, hummers and trophy spouses.
Geez, just cant' get no satisfaction, huh?
That's cuz they're looking in the wrong places, and for most it's useless to try and help. Eh, just ignore the shots. Or take a few shots, a few brews and have a some laughs. Play blues harp as if it were a horn. Get yerself on a mountain and talk to the critters, who know a lot more than most uniformed twerps with agendas.
Yet some people absolutely need the illusions. It's their way, and that's that. Oh well, and away we go!
Seems obvious to me that this is strong discrimination against what one thinks is true or not. When it comes right down to it, it's a power play, which is what the military is all about -- break you down, then build you back into what the military believes you ought to be. Be all you can be, but only by our rules. Works great for fighting war or building corporations. Sucks if you want to be a free human being, and this is an ancient situation. It's a fundamental characteristic of life -- some people want to control, others need to be controlled, and then there are the radicals who refuse both ways of life.
Which is something that happens now and again.
What do you believe should be done about this?
I believe in music and the magic of a young girl's heart. I suppose we could punish those who try to control others, but it won't work. This is so much a part of humanity that it'll never go away until the species dies out. My advice to those who wish to live free is to get used to persecution. Avoid those situations that invite persecution. Learn how to take persecution, because it'll go on until you're a ripe old age. Or maybe younger, it depends on where you start.
And then you might find peace. Seems there's a limit to how long they can keep it up. A lot of them have died out, from what I've seen. (Heh, outliving all the bahstahds -- cool) That tends to lower the volume of the voices. Also age gives an attitude of not giving a shot what others believe, pretend to believe, fake think, and so on. Many people are frauds their whole lives, which is sad. That seems to have a connection with real courage, not the desperate acts of people scared shootless. They give you medals for that. Real courage has its own reward.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
The only corrective action to take for arrogance is to let it fall on its own face. But, one can still fight it. It's the work of youth to raise a fuss about arrogance, which takes a certain amount of arrogance too. I remember it well. It was worth it.
Yep, we can try to punish those who believe they are right and you are wrong, regarding spiritual matters. In the end it's just a bunch of advanced monkeys who don't know squat yammering away at each other, playing tricks, doing monkey things . . . somewhat entertaining to those observing from afar and thinking:
Not very far from the trees, are we.
So yeah, fight the injustices and cruelties of ignorance. They can't help it and really, youth has to fight back. You're nothing if you don't. Age should back up the fight, but as we know, this doesn't happen very often due to, well, people being royally screwed up. Even in uniform, even with mil specs, even with mansions on the hill, gated communities, hummers and trophy spouses.
Geez, just cant' get no satisfaction, huh?
That's cuz they're looking in the wrong places, and for most it's useless to try and help. Eh, just ignore the shots. Or take a few shots, a few brews and have a some laughs. Play blues harp as if it were a horn. Get yerself on a mountain and talk to the critters, who know a lot more than most uniformed twerps with agendas.
Yet some people absolutely need the illusions. It's their way, and that's that. Oh well, and away we go!
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ May 3 2008, 05:23 AM) 
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
Seems obvious to me that this is strong discrimination against what one thinks is true or not. When it comes right down to it, it's a power play, which is what the military is all about -- break you down, then build you back into what the military believes you ought to be. Be all you can be, but only by our rules. Works great for fighting war or building corporations. Sucks if you want to be a free human being, and this is an ancient situation. It's a fundamental characteristic of life -- some people want to control, others need to be controlled, and then there are the radicals who refuse both ways of life.
Which is something that happens now and again.
What do you believe should be done about this?
I believe in music and the magic of a young girl's heart. I suppose we could punish those who try to control others, but it won't work. This is so much a part of humanity that it'll never go away until the species dies out. My advice to those who wish to live free is to get used to persecution. Avoid those situations that invite persecution. Learn how to take persecution, because it'll go on until you're a ripe old age. Or maybe younger, it depends on where you start.
And then you might find peace. Seems there's a limit to how long they can keep it up. A lot of them have died out, from what I've seen. (Heh, outliving all the bahstahds -- cool) That tends to lower the volume of the voices. Also age gives an attitude of not giving a shot what others believe, pretend to believe, fake think, and so on. Many people are frauds their whole lives, which is sad. That seems to have a connection with real courage, not the desperate acts of people scared shootless. They give you medals for that. Real courage has its own reward.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
The only corrective action to take for arrogance is to let it fall on its own face. But, one can still fight it. It's the work of youth to raise a fuss about arrogance, which takes a certain amount of arrogance too. I remember it well. It was worth it.
Yep, we can try to punish those who believe they are right and you are wrong, regarding spiritual matters. In the end it's just a bunch of advanced monkeys who don't know squat yammering away at each other, playing tricks, doing monkey things . . . somewhat entertaining to those observing from afar and thinking:
Not very far from the trees, are we.
So yeah, fight the injustices and cruelties of ignorance. They can't help it and really, youth has to fight back. You're nothing if you don't. Age should back up the fight, but as we know, this doesn't happen very often due to, well, people being royally screwed up. Even in uniform, even with mil specs, even with mansions on the hill, gated communities, hummers and trophy spouses.
Geez, just cant' get no satisfaction, huh?
That's cuz they're looking in the wrong places, and for most it's useless to try and help. Eh, just ignore the shots. Or take a few shots, a few brews and have a some laughs. Play blues harp as if it were a horn. Get yerself on a mountain and talk to the critters, who know a lot more than most uniformed twerps with agendas.
Yet some people absolutely need the illusions. It's their way, and that's that. Oh well, and away we go!
Seems obvious to me that this is strong discrimination against what one thinks is true or not. When it comes right down to it, it's a power play, which is what the military is all about -- break you down, then build you back into what the military believes you ought to be. Be all you can be, but only by our rules. Works great for fighting war or building corporations. Sucks if you want to be a free human being, and this is an ancient situation. It's a fundamental characteristic of life -- some people want to control, others need to be controlled, and then there are the radicals who refuse both ways of life.
Which is something that happens now and again.
What do you believe should be done about this?
I believe in music and the magic of a young girl's heart. I suppose we could punish those who try to control others, but it won't work. This is so much a part of humanity that it'll never go away until the species dies out. My advice to those who wish to live free is to get used to persecution. Avoid those situations that invite persecution. Learn how to take persecution, because it'll go on until you're a ripe old age. Or maybe younger, it depends on where you start.
And then you might find peace. Seems there's a limit to how long they can keep it up. A lot of them have died out, from what I've seen. (Heh, outliving all the bahstahds -- cool) That tends to lower the volume of the voices. Also age gives an attitude of not giving a shot what others believe, pretend to believe, fake think, and so on. Many people are frauds their whole lives, which is sad. That seems to have a connection with real courage, not the desperate acts of people scared shootless. They give you medals for that. Real courage has its own reward.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
The only corrective action to take for arrogance is to let it fall on its own face. But, one can still fight it. It's the work of youth to raise a fuss about arrogance, which takes a certain amount of arrogance too. I remember it well. It was worth it.
Yep, we can try to punish those who believe they are right and you are wrong, regarding spiritual matters. In the end it's just a bunch of advanced monkeys who don't know squat yammering away at each other, playing tricks, doing monkey things . . . somewhat entertaining to those observing from afar and thinking:
Not very far from the trees, are we.
So yeah, fight the injustices and cruelties of ignorance. They can't help it and really, youth has to fight back. You're nothing if you don't. Age should back up the fight, but as we know, this doesn't happen very often due to, well, people being royally screwed up. Even in uniform, even with mil specs, even with mansions on the hill, gated communities, hummers and trophy spouses.
Geez, just cant' get no satisfaction, huh?
That's cuz they're looking in the wrong places, and for most it's useless to try and help. Eh, just ignore the shots. Or take a few shots, a few brews and have a some laughs. Play blues harp as if it were a horn. Get yerself on a mountain and talk to the critters, who know a lot more than most uniformed twerps with agendas.
Yet some people absolutely need the illusions. It's their way, and that's that. Oh well, and away we go!
...Why, if 'tis dancing you would be,
There's brisker pipes than poetry.
Say, for what were hop-yards meant,
Or why was Burton built on Trent?
Oh many a peer of England brews
Livelier liquor than the Muse,
And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
Ale, man, ale's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:...
A.E. Housman
Oh, and what we are discussing is "Evangelicalism".
Please save the poetry for Casual Conversation, or a blog.....and stick to the questions for debate.
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
What do you believe should be done about this?
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
What do you believe should be done about this?
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
Yes. This is rather common actually. If you admit that you do not believe in a higher power or even happen to be an environmentalist the military is really not the place for you.
What do you believe should be done about this?
Nothing at all. If religious people find the need to kill each other in large numbers I am fine with that, save of course the crusade regardless of faith will come knocking at everyone’s door, has all through history, nothing new really.
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
You really cant do anything about it. I mean we have a president that does far worse then this, how much punishment do you think you can really give out? I would think actually it would be quicker to being punished for going against such grain really.
-----------------------
Just to add I am so happy I made my ETS.
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
The possibility exists that his accusations are legitimate, but the possibility also exists that he is a sub-standard soldier who is using this complaint of discrimination as an alibi to escape some form of punishment for his infractions. IF the chain of command is guilty of persecuting Hall because of his non belief, then his complaint is valid and somebody in Hall's chain of command should should lose his job, no two ways about it.
In 22 years I have been in numerous units and around numerous Chaplains; at no time did I ever feel the need to hide my agnosticism. My experiences may not be the norm across the board, but in 22 years I have also never witnessed persecution like Hall is charging. The military recognizes the Church of Satan and Chaplains are required to minister to those members; I don't believe there to be an institutional bias against atheists, at least in the Army.
Hall's chain of command could be discriminating against him, but the fact that Equal Opportunity (EO) and Inspector General (IG) complaints do not look favorably upon career longevity would probably convince most officers and senior NCO's to keep those bias's to themselves. I have had to endure more invocations and benedictions at military ceremonies than I can count, not to mention memorial services and funerals, but I have never been made to feel that if I didn't attend services or didn't bow my head in prayer, I would be ostracized.
What do you believe should be done about this?
The IG investigators should be allowed to complete any investigation, and if merited, the chain of command should be punished. If no merit is found for Hall's charges, then Hall should face similar punishment.
I'm guessing that you are unaware of the extraordinary measures the military is taking to clean up installations, transform munitions and conserve energy, with an enormous 'green' campaign.
The possibility exists that his accusations are legitimate, but the possibility also exists that he is a sub-standard soldier who is using this complaint of discrimination as an alibi to escape some form of punishment for his infractions. IF the chain of command is guilty of persecuting Hall because of his non belief, then his complaint is valid and somebody in Hall's chain of command should should lose his job, no two ways about it.
In 22 years I have been in numerous units and around numerous Chaplains; at no time did I ever feel the need to hide my agnosticism. My experiences may not be the norm across the board, but in 22 years I have also never witnessed persecution like Hall is charging. The military recognizes the Church of Satan and Chaplains are required to minister to those members; I don't believe there to be an institutional bias against atheists, at least in the Army.
Hall's chain of command could be discriminating against him, but the fact that Equal Opportunity (EO) and Inspector General (IG) complaints do not look favorably upon career longevity would probably convince most officers and senior NCO's to keep those bias's to themselves. I have had to endure more invocations and benedictions at military ceremonies than I can count, not to mention memorial services and funerals, but I have never been made to feel that if I didn't attend services or didn't bow my head in prayer, I would be ostracized.
What do you believe should be done about this?
The IG investigators should be allowed to complete any investigation, and if merited, the chain of command should be punished. If no merit is found for Hall's charges, then Hall should face similar punishment.
QUOTE
If you admit that you do not believe in a higher power or even happen to be an environmentalist the military is really not the place for you.
I'm guessing that you are unaware of the extraordinary measures the military is taking to clean up installations, transform munitions and conserve energy, with an enormous 'green' campaign.
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ May 3 2008, 03:45 PM)
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
The possibility exists that his accusations are legitimate, but the possibility also exists that he is a sub-standard soldier who is using this complaint of discrimination as an alibi to escape some form of punishment for his infractions. IF the chain of command is guilty of persecuting Hall because of his non belief, then his complaint is valid and somebody in Hall's chain of command should should lose his job, no two ways about it.
In 22 years I have been in numerous units and around numerous Chaplains; at no time did I ever feel the need to hide my agnosticism. My experiences may not be the norm across the board, but in 22 years I have also never witnessed persecution like Hall is charging. The military recognizes the Church of Satan and Chaplains are required to minister to those members; I don't believe there to be an institutional bias against atheists, at least in the Army.
Hall's chain of command could be discriminating against him, but the fact that Equal Opportunity (EO) and Inspector General (IG) complaints do not look favorably upon career longevity would probably convince most officers and senior NCO's to keep those bias's to themselves. I have had to endure more invocations and benedictions at military ceremonies than I can count, not to mention memorial services and funerals, but I have never been made to feel that if I didn't attend services or didn't bow my head in prayer, I would be ostracized.
What do you believe should be done about this?
The IG investigators should be allowed to complete any investigation, and if merited, the chain of command should be punished. If no merit is found for Hall's charges, then Hall should face similar punishment.
I'm guessing that you are unaware of the extraordinary measures the military is taking to clean up installations, transform munitions and conserve energy, with an enormous 'green' campaign.
The possibility exists that his accusations are legitimate, but the possibility also exists that he is a sub-standard soldier who is using this complaint of discrimination as an alibi to escape some form of punishment for his infractions. IF the chain of command is guilty of persecuting Hall because of his non belief, then his complaint is valid and somebody in Hall's chain of command should should lose his job, no two ways about it.
In 22 years I have been in numerous units and around numerous Chaplains; at no time did I ever feel the need to hide my agnosticism. My experiences may not be the norm across the board, but in 22 years I have also never witnessed persecution like Hall is charging. The military recognizes the Church of Satan and Chaplains are required to minister to those members; I don't believe there to be an institutional bias against atheists, at least in the Army.
Hall's chain of command could be discriminating against him, but the fact that Equal Opportunity (EO) and Inspector General (IG) complaints do not look favorably upon career longevity would probably convince most officers and senior NCO's to keep those bias's to themselves. I have had to endure more invocations and benedictions at military ceremonies than I can count, not to mention memorial services and funerals, but I have never been made to feel that if I didn't attend services or didn't bow my head in prayer, I would be ostracized.
What do you believe should be done about this?
The IG investigators should be allowed to complete any investigation, and if merited, the chain of command should be punished. If no merit is found for Hall's charges, then Hall should face similar punishment.
QUOTE
If you admit that you do not believe in a higher power or even happen to be an environmentalist the military is really not the place for you.
I'm guessing that you are unaware of the extraordinary measures the military is taking to clean up installations, transform munitions and conserve energy, with an enormous 'green' campaign.
My experiances are MOSTLY the same DTOM- but I also can't deny the Air force academy issues, and I also have the question- is Hall also bucking the invocations and benedictions as discriminatory against his religion?
Again- it doesn't seem to be coming from the Chaplain - who actually provided the material to Hall, but we do seem to have some serious upper command issues with evangelicism.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 3 2008, 08:33 PM)
My experiances are MOSTLY the same DTOM- but I also can't deny the Air force academy issues, and I also have the question- is Hall also bucking the invocations and benedictions as discriminatory against his religion?
Again- it doesn't seem to be coming from the Chaplain - who actually provided the material to Hall, but we do seem to have some serious upper command issues with evangelicism.
Again- it doesn't seem to be coming from the Chaplain - who actually provided the material to Hall, but we do seem to have some serious upper command issues with evangelicism.
The Air Force overhauled its policy in response to the Air Force academy complaints.
QUOTE
The Air Force issued new religion guidelines to its commanders yesterday that caution against promoting any particular faith - or even "the idea of religion over nonreligion" - in official communications or functions like meetings, sports events and ceremonies.
The guidelines discourage public prayers at official Air Force events or meetings other than worship services, one of the most contentious issues for many commanders. But they allow for "a brief nonsectarian prayer" at special ceremonies like those honoring promotions, or in "extraordinary circumstances" like "mass casualties, preparation for imminent combat and natural disasters."
The guidelines discourage public prayers at official Air Force events or meetings other than worship services, one of the most contentious issues for many commanders. But they allow for "a brief nonsectarian prayer" at special ceremonies like those honoring promotions, or in "extraordinary circumstances" like "mass casualties, preparation for imminent combat and natural disasters."
Sounds fair to me.
I hear you Mrs P- but there is also a pretty big provision in the USMJ about cursing- can cost you an article 15- I wonder how well that is coming along? 
In my experiance, which may be different from others- it is the culture more than the regulation you have to fight.
For instance- Blacks in the military, women in the military, gays in the military, drug use and drinking in the military, hazing incidents etc etc- most of this had regulations designed to stop abuses in these various areas- but it wasn't unitl there was a real dust up, and someone, usually in civilian leadership says "If I see it, your career is over, don't want to ever hear about this again in the news" or some similar statement.
The rules may have changed Mrs P- that in no way, shape or form means the culture or behavior has changed at all.
In my experiance, which may be different from others- it is the culture more than the regulation you have to fight.
For instance- Blacks in the military, women in the military, gays in the military, drug use and drinking in the military, hazing incidents etc etc- most of this had regulations designed to stop abuses in these various areas- but it wasn't unitl there was a real dust up, and someone, usually in civilian leadership says "If I see it, your career is over, don't want to ever hear about this again in the news" or some similar statement.
The rules may have changed Mrs P- that in no way, shape or form means the culture or behavior has changed at all.
So, questions of the day:
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
He was at the very least targeted by the Staff Sargeant who tried to tell him that he could not eat with the other soldiers because it was a "Christian Holiday."
What do you believe should be done about this?
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
I have only one response to these two questions.
While I have never been in the military, it is my understanding that when you are sworn in, you pledge to uphold the Constitution. Over a 30 year career I, on more than one occasion, went over a supervisor's head and filed a complaint that resulted in the discharge of the aforementioned supervisors. If the staff sargeant is so blatantly violating the Constitutional rights of his soldiers, I believe that he is the one who should be court-martialed. I suspect that the military might be more willing to sacrifice a sergeant over this issue than a general, but that such a decision against a sergeant, would be noted all the way up the line by career soldiers.
(I hope the spelling is okay. Attempts to use iespell delete my posts.)
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
He was at the very least targeted by the Staff Sargeant who tried to tell him that he could not eat with the other soldiers because it was a "Christian Holiday."
What do you believe should be done about this?
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
I have only one response to these two questions.
While I have never been in the military, it is my understanding that when you are sworn in, you pledge to uphold the Constitution. Over a 30 year career I, on more than one occasion, went over a supervisor's head and filed a complaint that resulted in the discharge of the aforementioned supervisors. If the staff sargeant is so blatantly violating the Constitutional rights of his soldiers, I believe that he is the one who should be court-martialed. I suspect that the military might be more willing to sacrifice a sergeant over this issue than a general, but that such a decision against a sergeant, would be noted all the way up the line by career soldiers.
(I hope the spelling is okay. Attempts to use iespell delete my posts.)
QUOTE
The possibility exists that his accusations are legitimate, but the possibility also exists that he is a sub-standard soldier who is using this complaint of discrimination as an alibi to escape some form of punishment for his infractions. IF the chain of command is guilty of persecuting Hall because of his non belief, then his complaint is valid and somebody in Hall's chain of command should should lose his job, no two ways about it.
We could talk about possibilities, but unless there are hyperlinks and quoted facts about the matter, all the speculating about possibilities will do is let the Air Force off in a de facto way. Enough time has passed and certainly if there is evidence that this guy was a poor soldier, it would've made it's way out. This isn't exactly a case of one person having a beef, it's a pretty widespread phenomenon. There appears to be a regular pattern of treatment here and it even carries over on to the baseball team. The location of the academy is near a ton of proselytizing organizations in Colorado Springs. There is evidently a number of organizations and officers who don't get what pluralism means. Some of them act like they are being persecuted and it's their sole goal to convert others and to be aggressive in promoting their faith-that is specifically Campus Crusade for Christ's mission which you can find in my last hyperlink. Such goals don't mesh well in a military culture of being low key and allowing individuals to choose for themselves, not having it pushed on to others through senior officers or activities that get special acknowledgement.
QUOTE
In 22 years I have been in numerous units and around numerous Chaplains; at no time did I ever feel the need to hide my agnosticism. My experiences may not be the norm across the board, but in 22 years I have also never witnessed persecution like Hall is charging. The military recognizes the Church of Satan and Chaplains are required to minister to those members; I don't believe there to be an institutional bias against atheists, at least in the Army.
The allegations appear to stick as the Air Force implemented a sensitivity training course and the like, not to mention letting senior officers retire quietly. I'm certain they wouldn't go that route if the claims were baseless and the need to save face wasn't necessary. Even the football coach got caught up in this.
QUOTE
Last year, a team from Yale Divinity School observed the religious atmosphere at the Academy. The team was alarmed that an Academy chaplain gave a speech to cadets urging them to warn fellow cadets that those not “born again will burn in the fires of hell.” The Yale report also notes that the chaplain told cadets Jesus had “called” them to the academy as part of God’s plan for their lives.
The Colorado Springs Gazette obtained a copy of the previously undisclosed report. It noted that the Yale team pointed out that the “stridently evangelical themes (observed during basic training) challenged the necessarily pluralistic environment of basic training” and said the “overwhelmingly evangelical tone” of the event “encouraged religious divisions rather than fostering spiritual understanding.”
Air Force & fundamentalismThe Colorado Springs Gazette obtained a copy of the previously undisclosed report. It noted that the Yale team pointed out that the “stridently evangelical themes (observed during basic training) challenged the necessarily pluralistic environment of basic training” and said the “overwhelmingly evangelical tone” of the event “encouraged religious divisions rather than fostering spiritual understanding.”
QUOTE
Hall's chain of command could be discriminating against him, but the fact that Equal Opportunity (EO) and Inspector General (IG) complaints do not look favorably upon career longevity would probably convince most officers and senior NCO's to keep those bias's to themselves. I have had to endure more invocations and benedictions at military ceremonies than I can count, not to mention memorial services and funerals, but I have never been made to feel that if I didn't attend services or didn't bow my head in prayer, I would be ostracized.
And what you speak of has occured as some officers have been shown the door. Thank you know who!........
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 3 2008, 10:41 PM)
I hear you Mrs P- but there is also a pretty big provision in the USMJ about cursing- can cost you an article 15- I wonder how well that is coming along?
In my experiance, which may be different from others- it is the culture more than the regulation you have to fight.
For instance- Blacks in the military, women in the military, gays in the military, drug use and drinking in the military, hazing incidents etc etc- most of this had regulations designed to stop abuses in these various areas- but it wasn't unitl there was a real dust up, and someone, usually in civilian leadership says "If I see it, your career is over, don't want to ever hear about this again in the news" or some similar statement.
The rules may have changed Mrs P- that in no way, shape or form means the culture or behavior has changed at all.
In my experiance, which may be different from others- it is the culture more than the regulation you have to fight.
For instance- Blacks in the military, women in the military, gays in the military, drug use and drinking in the military, hazing incidents etc etc- most of this had regulations designed to stop abuses in these various areas- but it wasn't unitl there was a real dust up, and someone, usually in civilian leadership says "If I see it, your career is over, don't want to ever hear about this again in the news" or some similar statement.
The rules may have changed Mrs P- that in no way, shape or form means the culture or behavior has changed at all.
If the rules have changed, that's about all they can do. Per the "culture" argument, well, you could say the same thing about golf, alcohol, yes even cursing (and even smoking to an extent). Upper brass loves golf and people start to take up the sport as they make rank. Play golf and you'll have more in common/ spend more time with them and have a better chance at getting a better OPR to make a higher rank. Don't swear or drink or smoke and you might be considered a wuss, or whatever, by those who do (they're legion).
Alternately, you might have a guy in authority who wants to prohibit drinking at all times, for any reason. He'll get the bright idea to write up a pledge swearing never to drink and ask people to sign it. Those who refuse aren't held in as fine regard as those who do. This really happened. A wing commander in one of my husband's old squadrons (won't mention which one) drafted up this non-drinking pledge, hung it on the wall and asked everyone to sign it. Mr P's squadron commander at the time refused. Of course that's terrible because he is supposed to set the example, so he was marched into the office and stood at attention. The conversation went something like this:
wing commander: "I've heard that you've refused to sign the pledge not to drink"
squadron commender: "Yes, sir."
w.c: "Any reason why?"
s.c.: "Well, occasionally I wouldn't mind having a drink"
w.c.: "Like when"
s.c.:"Well, sir, I could actually use a beer right now."
*silence* (this guy had no sense of humor)
s.c.:"Are you ordering me to sign it, sir? If you order me I will sign it."
Of course if the wing commander ordered him to sign the pledge that would defeat the purpose because he wanted to show what a great leader he was by advocating a ban on drinking and then everyone else should magically follow. So the wing commander never ordered him to sign it, no one in his squadron signed it. It was taken down from the wall eventually after every brown noser in other squadrons signed it and I'm sure their OPRs looked better than that squadron commander's. But that squadron commander is a wing commander today so it didn't seem to impact his career much. There are also squadron golf tournaments that officers are expected to participate in. On the flip side, no one will ever, could ever, would ever march a military subordinate into the office and demand he make a pledge to Christ or host a squadron-wide 'Christ telethon' and expect everyone to attend, or whatever. So a strong case could be made that drinking (or not drinking as the case may be) and golfing will effect one's career vastly more than atheism.
Now, a policy of walking through the academy, pointing to people and saying, "Jesus!" and expecting them to say "rocks" back at you is a conflict of interest. I've never ever heard of anything so blatant before or since the academy scandal. People who volunteer to work at the academy tend to be weird actors anyway, but that's another topic...The "culture" argument you've made is WAY too broad and vague and could apply as well to nearly anything. See above paragraphs. In fact, from what I've inferred from your many posts here, you would think less of a soldier for being a Christian. Your type is the other side of the coin, and they're in the military too.
I hear what you are saying and understand it all too well, having been in an eerily similar situation with drinking- though, at least, there was some more rational background with my experiance- Alcohol abuse in Alaska's bush is for real bad- at least there was a reason for the "no drinking amongst adults".
That being said- it is still illegal to curse in the military- ask your husband, depending on his knowledge of USMJ- Goerge Washington is supposedly the author of this rule (though, how would I know beyond what we were told on this one?)
But we have alot of evidence of pretty profound amounts of proseltyzing going on- the marine incident in Iraq? I mean, darn, someone had to be laying down on the job not to figure this one out?
That being said- it is still illegal to curse in the military- ask your husband, depending on his knowledge of USMJ- Goerge Washington is supposedly the author of this rule (though, how would I know beyond what we were told on this one?)
But we have alot of evidence of pretty profound amounts of proseltyzing going on- the marine incident in Iraq? I mean, darn, someone had to be laying down on the job not to figure this one out?
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ May 2 2008, 08:45 PM)
So, questions of the day:
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
Do you believe Jeremy Hall is being targeted for his Athiestic beliefs by religious fundamentalists within the Army higher ups?
No, I think he got caught up in an awkward situation.
QUOTE
What do you believe should be done about this?
That assumes there is an actual problem.
QUOTE
Considering the US Air Force Academy's recent violations of this kind- what do you believe the corrective action should be against these officers that encourage this kind of persecution?
No, I think this a pure propaganda. While in Kuwait getting ready to go to Iraq my buddy went to a Wicca meeting. Since the battle buddy rule was in effect I had no choice but to go with him. They sat there in that trailer talking about spells and various other Wiccan rituals. There were maybe a dozen or so people who attended and I saw no problem with any of it as a life time Evangelical Christian.
I think this is a lot of fluff, no one cares in the US Military what your religion is. If I find out otherwise then I will have a problem but I saw nothing in those links but a lot of hyberbole.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ May 28 2008, 09:00 AM)
We could talk about possibilities, but unless there are hyperlinks and quoted facts about the matter, all the speculating about possibilities will do is let the Air Force off in a de facto way. Enough time has passed and certainly if there is evidence that this guy was a poor soldier, it would've made it's way out.
I'm not sure how I missed this........but I think you are confusing the Hall event with the Air Force Academy evangelical scandal. Hall is an Army Military Police soldier stationed at Fort Riley, KS.
But allow me to address one point; if the Army is treating this as basically a non-issue, which it appears to be, they are not likely to release disciplinary records of Hall in any effort to discredit his allegations........and Hall isn't likely to confess to a history of poor performance. So it seems unlikely that the public would know if he was or not.
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