Dear La Herring Rouge:

I didn't respond to your post right away because the arrogance I see in it just makes me angry and I'm sure if I would have responded immediately it would have come through in a very sarcastic manner. I didn't want that to happen, because I know it does nothing to help our cause and since I don’t know you personally, I understand that I could easily be misinterpreting your writing. I don't know if I'll be more successful today, but I'm going to try. If I'm not, please accept my apologies.

You assume that I'm an absentee parent and not really aware of what's going on in my children's lives. Your assumption is incorrect. While I'm sure you see it in your setting that is most definitely not the case here.

You also assume that my children must be in special education because of the language I use, but the language comes straight from Texas Statutes and federal and state case law in matters that are unrelated to IDEA. If any of the language appears to reflect concepts within the IDEA program, then it is because they have codified the standard into that law. But if you are concerned, my oldest has an IQ of 129; my husband’s was 131 when he was in school and mine was 133. My youngest has not had an IQ test yet. These are just numbers however and are not significant in the value we place on our lives.

Perhaps it is unintentional, but you also blur the lines of a dress code and a uniform/standardized dress policy. In order to properly debate this issue, I'm going to set some working definitions if that is okay with everyone.

Uniform/Standardized policy - a policy that prescribes a specific form or specific characteristics of attire required in order to even attend school. A formal uniform is where a specific outfit is required, and an informal uniform is where a specific structure of dress is identified as the required attire, to wit: solid color, shirts with collars, etc.

Dress Code Policy - a policy that prohibits inappropriate or materially disruptive attire to the school environment.

As I have said previously I do not have a problem with a policy that prohibits inappropriate attire.

I guess what bothers me the most about your post is that you completely dismiss the possible existence of my beliefs without any consideration, simply because you can’t fathom them. If you can’t accept that I am sincere in my beliefs then it doesn’t seem worth the effort to go further if I can’t present them.

Jamie – I’m going to ask for your permission, advice or assistance. Can I please have permission to post the unfinished essay in parts in a post or is the only means I have to address this point is to upload it at the APROD website and link to it here?

I won’t post it until I hear from you.

Wishing you all a Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday.

yes they may be cheaper, but you didn't take the time to say that kids also need casual clothes on top of it, so you wouldn't be saving any money, uniforms would be an EXTRA EXPENCE!

my family and i are not poor and i don't want to look like a poor person, why would you wanna wear something that has already been used by somebody else, ewww.

I shop occasionally in thrift stores. The proceeds go toward helping the needy and the clothing is recycled. What better statement is there to make, so long as the clothing is in good repair? And incidentally, the clothes are washed before being put out and they can be washed again at home before you wear them if it makes you feel better.

All of the arguments have pretty much been put forth regarding school uniforms. Those of us who are in favor of them (white shirts, blue pants or skirts, something like that) aren't desirous of brown shirts ala Hitler, or Chairman Mao pajamas. Our intentions (at least mine) are not to encourage uniformity of thinking or squelching personalities, but to minimize distractions in the classroom and to also discourage students from making fun of each other because some might not be able to shop at The Gap or "Club Banana" or whatever store happens to be the mall Shoppe du Jour to get your clothes.

There is already so much materialism in this society and so many people who are very class-conscious in a society that is not supposed to be that stratified. We help create our own problems by the choices we make for ourselves, but also none of us exists in a bubble where the choices we make do not affect our society as a whole. I want=> I get, end of story. But it isn't, for those "cool" (read: expensive) clothes are not only meant to define someone as cool; by nature those clothes are used to exclude others, too, by virtue of their price.

But it is perhaps too much to ask the younger generations to opt for wisdom over a fashion plate mentality, especially since so many in our older generations haven't learned that particular lesson either.

P.S. Many of those second-hand store garments are donated by RICH people for a tax break. If they were good enough for them to wear...

It may not be your intention to "encourage uniformity of thinking or squelching personalities" but that is what you are doing. I whole-heartedly agree that we need to "discourage students from making fun of each other" but it is not just how they dress that kids make fun of others. My son has a limp because of a tumor that he had in his foot when he was a toddler, which caused his leg to develop wrong. The tumor was taken care of but to fix the rest, the doctors would have to saw the bone in his lower leg, turn lower part (with the foot) clockwise and then let it heal. None of the doctors recommended it. It was too risky. He gets around, but not as fast as the other. For a while, some of the kids started teasing him. We got in touch with the school and put a stop to it. Things are okay for now, but we have to keep an eye on new situations to ensure that it doesn't arise again. The reason I'm bringing this up is because according to your solution, we should require that all kids walk with a limp so that so that no one makes fun of him. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

As for our class-conscious society - the simple fact is that there are people from all different socio-economic classes within our society. My children have been taught that some are socio-economically above us and some are socio-economically below others. If my kids work harder to obtain something then I do not want them taught that they should feel guilty and have to hide their success from others. And just the opposite applies as well. If there are others who are better off them I do not want them feeling shame and that others should be obligated to hide their success from them. It is my philosophy that if we’ve worked hard then we can be proud of that fact. And also, if we've done our best then we should feel no shame because someone has something we don’t. We should just be happy for others. If my kids worked hard and earned a special shirt they've wanted, and it is appropriate attire, then there is no reason why they should be denied the opportunity to wear it. Letting our children think a uniform hides differences only teaches them that if they are not on the same level then that is something they need to hide. I don't what my child taught this.

If I might ask -- why do you need a solid white shirt to teach respect for others? Are flowers, stripes, other colors, etc disrespectful? How is a shirt with 2 colors more distracting then a single colored shirt? Should a white polo shirt purchased at Sak's Fifth Avenue for $82 or a white blouse for $150.00 also be prohibited because they certainly cost more then those purchased at Wal-Mart and Target?

I for one don't shop at Sak's and am instead a Wal-mart or Target shopper. But I don't feel that others need to stop shopping at Saks so that people aren’t offended.


Vickie

Those who would feel guilty about wearing something more expensive than what others are wearing in class are not the ones who need to examine their priorities.
It is those who have not contributed to their status in life and have parents who give them everything they have ever had, notably expensive clothes and accessories, who feel that they are somehow better than the other students for that reason who need to develop a little depth of thinking.

As children, we have what our parents are able to provide for us, except for those whose parents who cannot provide for them or those who have a job that enables them to earn more money to get what they want.

No, a flowered shirt is not any more or less respectful than a solid white shirt (I hate white shirts--they're dirt magnets, but that's the mom in me talking). There is no more or less dignity in any outfit that is clean, neat, and fits properly when compared to another outfit that is clean, neat, and fits properly.

Diversity is an important thing. But PRIDE because of what one is wearing as opposed to what someone else is wearing, unless it happens to be a medal or a rank that indicates merit or outstanding performance, is superficiality.
Pride in one's accomplishments is good. Pride that I was born with blonde hair or had white parents is superficial and potentially damaging if I use that as a standard for judging the worth of others. The fewer superficial distinctions we make between children vis-a-vis their appearance, the closer we come to understanding that all children are of equal worth.

As far as your son goes, it sounds like you are doing a good job looking out for him; you are to be congratulated. For your efforts, he will benefit greatly. But I fail to see how it is relevant to uniforms in school. A basic clothing choice for students in school can hardly be compared to requiring all to limp to make a handicapped student feel accepted.

The story about my son was to provide you with an analogous situation to help show you how the logic you are using doesn't make sense. If logic is going to work in one instance, it will work across the board. Conversely, if it's not working in one instance, it's not going to work in another.

You say kids are being teased because they are different and can't afford clothes from the GAP or what ever other store was the Shoppe du Jour of the day. My son was being teased because he was different from the other kids because he wasn't as coordinated as them and couldn't run as fast as them. You argue that we need to force everyone dress the same so that someone who can't shop at the GAP isn't teased or doesn't feel bad because they can't do what others might be able to do. Using your logic then, we would need to force everyone to walk the same way my son does so that he isn't teased or doesn't feel bad because he can't do what others might be able to do. It doesn't make sense. You don’t force everyone to be the same so differences are no longer noticeable; you teach them that differences (regardless of what they are) don’t matter. And kids need to be taught that teasing others for being different is unacceptable no matter what the difference.

If we don't want kids to be focused on clothes, then we need to teach them that it is not what someone wears that is important. Yet with a uniform/standardized dress policy, they are teaching them that what they look like on the outside is more important then what they are on the inside. I am teaching my children that it is what is on the inside that is important, not the outside. It is a person’s character that shows others who they are. For instance a person with good moral character knows the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. They would be trustworthy, loyal, respectful, courteous, helpful, considerate, studious, obedient and kind, just to name a few. I am teaching my children that it is character traits like these that we are to use should we need to judge one another. These are the true measure of their behavior, not the color of their clothes. As Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” Color is not the measure of one’s character, be it a layer of skin or a layer of clothes. By prescribing certain colors or only solid colors you are teaching children that color matters over the content of their character. With a uniform policy it doesn’t matter how respectful children are. It doesn’t matter how trustworthy they are. It doesn’t matter how courteous, helpful, considerate, studious, and kind they are. With the uniform dress policy it is not character or acceptable behavior that is being considered. The only thing that matters with that policy is what is on the outside, whether the color requirements prescribed by the government have been met. Everything else is disregarded if the color requirements are not met. Whether you are intending to or not, you are teaching that if the outside isn’t perfect, especially in the eyes of someone with power, it doesn’t matter what’s on the inside. I don't want my children taught such an inappropriate concept, nor will I allow the government to compel my children to accept that it is okay to base one’s appropriateness on something so arbitrary as color, or shade of a color or singularity of color.

As for those kids who have parents with money, I can't do anything about them. In this country they have a right to spend their money as they see fit. Do I condone it? No. But I'm not raising their kids; that is their right and their responsibility. There are Paris Hilton types of the world and I can't do anything about that. What I can do for my children though is show them that they are indeed just as important and worthy as that type of person. My children are not going to base their self-worth on what someone else has or does not have.

As for the issue of pride, I agree with you that it is pride in one's accomplishments that is important and not what they wear. I think a student who earns an "A" while wearing any appropriate attire can feel just as much pride as a student who has earned an "A" while wearing a school uniform. I also think it is okay for my son to be proud of the hard work he did to earn a special shirt. The shirt becomes the symbol of his hard work. “I got the shirt with my “A” money.”

As for your argument that "PRIDE because of what one is wearing as opposed to what someone else is wearing.... is superficiality." One of the main arguments put forth by uniform proponents for wanting uniforms is that uniforms supposedly help children to feel pride in what they are wearing. "The children feel good about themselves as school uniforms build a sense of pride. http://www.ed.gov/updates/uniforms.html Does it make it any less superficial because their pride comes from wearing something that everyone else is wearing?


Vickie

I don't think it is necessarily pride students feel in wearing uniforms in school, but rather a sense of belonging or cohesiveness as a student body. Of course, I didn't write the link.



Thank you.

As far as the disability vs. clothing issue: one is affected by external circumstances which may or may not be remedied (money, what parents think, etc.) vs. a circumstance that cannot be changed (your son walking with a limp). That's MY point. If I were Jesus, I might be able to remedy that, but I'm obviously not, and I'm not sure he would remedy the situation if something good comes out of it, like all parties concerned learning to deal with it and make the best of the situation.

Gee, ain't it rough when people are forced to do things! They're forced to attend school on time or face consequences, they are forced to speak respectfully to their teachers (if not their parents!!!) and other students in school. They are forced to get rid of their gum in class, they are forced to be quiet in school or pay the consequences. They are forced, to some degree of success, to do their work or they are forced to repeat a grade for not showing that they have learned something. (If they aren't held back but promoted anyway, ultimately there are consequences for their families and society to pay for lessons not having been learned.)

Self-expression is not the highest ideal held in public school. Demonstrating what students have learned is. Show me a student who feels severely hampered because he cannot wear his chains, midriff-revealing top and his oversize gangsta pants hanging down below his butt and showing his boxers, and I'll show you a student who has more problems than just with dress code.

Better yet--you're right. This is a society where we can wear what we want, say what we want, do what we want short of thievery or murder. And our society is manifesting the consequences. Sense of cohesion within a school is hard to come by, especially with the little sub-tribes in high school. Klebold and Harris had those long, black, shiny cowboy coats--I think they were referred to as outcasts. Less armament can be concealed while wearing a shirt tucked into a pair of pants that fits with a jacket or coat that doesn't go clear down to a student's feet.

But then Klebold and Harris were all into self-expression, weren't they? The rights and desires of others be damned. They had a statement to make. And the cameras in the cafeteria and library could only record the actions of two boys who didn't feel they fit in and proved it in Columbine High School.

Maybe there is more than "self" and "self-expression" to successfully living in society. Maybe if the students learn it there will be fewer criminals.

(edited)

(Edited again to say: You are entirely right to teach your children that it is the content of their character that matters. Unfortunately, that is only seen by people who take the time to see it; clothing differences are noted and picked on nearly always before these more subtle distinctions are seen.

In addition, you and not the public school will have to continue to instill your values in your children. As it is, values based on religious beliefs are decidedly "out" in our current climate of secularism. Unfortunate.)

As I have said before (sorry for repeating it) my objections to school uniforms are based upon my sincerely held religious and philosophical beliefs. You appear to me to be an honest and sincere person as well.

With regard to,



I would like to ask if you were compelled to go against something you sincerely believed in, beliefs that are indeed protected by our Constitution, do you believe it would give you a stronger sense of belonging and cohesiveness to the group of people that are compelling you to disregard your beliefs? Or would you feel, as I feel, contempt for those who would have you disregard your beliefs because they do not share in them?

It is important to understand that it is the mandatory uniform policies that do not provide an opt-out for those who have sincerely held beliefs that run afoul and in which I have a problem. People do not have a Constitutional right to chew gum. They do not have a Constitutional right to be late or lazy or such. They do have the Constitutional right to believe as they will and to act upon those beliefs to the extent that they do not infringe upon the rights of others. That is what the adults of today have forgotten that is why it is not being taught to our children today.

I'm not an anarchist who opposes all rules. Rational obedience to mindful rules that do not infringe upon one's sincere beliefs is imperative for the survival of our civilization. A rational respect for the “unwritten rules” (morals and values) comes from the understanding that these rules are not there to just control our every action. They exist to protect us. It is within our understanding that we cannot do exactly what we wish at any given moment, that we fully realize the protecting principle that neither can anyone else. It is therefore “… in one's own interest that one is part of a community where certain expectations can be held and long-term goals can be pursued.” However where rational obedience will lead to the survival of our civilization, blind obedience will lead to the demise of our civilization. Obedience without thought only leads to the abuse of power. This is one of the reasons I am so opposed to mandatory uniform policies. They ask my family to disregard what we believe and blindly follow their command.

Uniform policies don’t teach children to make moral choices it only conditions them to do exactly what they are told by the government without moral justification or reasoning. I can understand the reasoning that pants that are so big that they could easily fall off while walking are unsafe because they could cause a student to trip, which could lead to an injury of a student while at school, which could lead to a lawsuit, which could lead to more problems. I can understand the reasoning behind the need to teach our children to dress respectfully of others. There is a time and place for everything and messages of hate do not need to be shared in school. The reasoning is there and with an understanding of this reasoning our children will learn to make moral choices. But for the life of me, I cannot understand why stripes, multi-colored shirts, flowers, non-offensive prints, plaids and the like have been rendered inappropriate, because they are not. The only possible reasoning I can find behind the policy, which in and of itself is a completely inappropriate concept, is the “You’re going to do it because I say so and I have the power to hurt you if you don’t do as I say” argument and this does not provide the proper reasoning to morally justify one’s actions.




The items you list can be addressed by a regular prohibitive dress code.
Why is there the need to jump from prohibiting inappropriate items all the way to requiring specific attire? Why prohibit all the appropriate attire that does exist and allow wearing only that attire which a few, acting as an arm of the government, have deemed acceptable. Uniform/standardized dress policies prohibit attire that is completely morally acceptable attire in our society. Did stripes become morally unacceptable attire in our society? When did a shirt with more than one color become immoral in public? Certainly the mere presence of a flower on girl’s clothing doesn’t make it inappropriate public attire? When did appropriately fitting jeans become unacceptable in a public setting? Did our society adopt the moral that all non-offensive prints or plaid designs rendered clothing unacceptable public attire? The answer to all these questions is in the negative. So what makes them unacceptable to wear to school? These characteristics in and of themselves do not render clothing lewd, distracting, unsafe, unhealthy, immoral, immodest, indecent, hazardous, materially disruptive or otherwise inappropriate for school so why is it okay to prohibited them?




But this is exactly what uniform proponents are doing. When a uniform policy does not allow a parent to opt-out because of their sincere beliefs then the rights of that parent are damned. And please understand that I am not arguing that parental rights are absolute. Parental rights are ‘Fundamental Rights’ which means that regulation limiting these rights can be justified only by ‘compelling state interests.’ There is no doubt that the State has a compelling interest of the highest order in protecting the health and safety of children. However there is also no doubt that when the compelling interest standard has been meet that the least restrictive means is required because “[a] least restrictive means requirement ensures that, when a variety of methods are available to prevent harm, our constitution commands the use of that approach which is least intrusive as to individual liberties.” Ex parte Tucci, 859 S.W.2d 1 Since a uniform code is much more restrictive than a typical school dress code, which primarily prohibits certain types of clothing, it would fail the least restrictive means test. Accordingly schools cannot limit parental rights in this regard.

I wanted to write more, but I've got to run to work.

Vickie

You clearly haven't read through this thread. I did address that later....Children don't necessarily play in the clothes they wear to school. They have school clothes as well as "casual clothing" ....with or without a uniform. In addition, only a total of two uniforms are necessary for a school year. A uniformless student could not wear the same outfit five days a week (or even three) without ridicule....let alone two outfits in an entire school year. The costs are not even comparable.

With the busy life style of working moms, (I can't imagine being a single mom and working) getting kids to after school programs, helping with homework, etc, etc. etc. I'm lucky if I get all of my laundry done on the weekend. My kid's would be pretty rank smelling by the end of the week if they only had 2 uniforms to wear.

And what about those who don't have the luxury of a washing machine at home and who have to cart everything to a laundromat for cleaning? "Oops -- sorry couldn't make it to the laundromat last night I had to work the second job so we could eat. You'll have to wear one of your dirty uniforms or wear your clean clothes in the closet and spend the day isolated in in-school suspension because I didn't have time to wash your dirty clothes." What is wrong with them wearing the clean appropriate clothes in their closet?

Vickie

Making dinner takes much more time than pressing a button on a machine and adding soap. Why not let the laundry wash while helping with homework or making dinner? It can dry while you're sleeping. Actually, if I waited a week to do mine it would take a full day to handle all that wash.

A washing machine can be financed for 10 dollars a month at Sears. That's much cheaper than going to the laundry-mat, or even buying a coca cola a day.

You must be much better at organizing your household duties then I. As for the Sears washers if it were so simple as being able to afford $10.00 a month then why do laundromats even exist?

And you didn't answer my question --- What is wrong with them wearing the clean appropriate clothes in their closet?


Vickie

For several reasons: Many people who go to the laundrymat 1) are either college students without hookups, not living in their permanent home (traveling for instance), washer is broken. 2)Have extremely bad credit, or 3)don't think about it and go by default. Renting furniture to own is a lot more expensive than buying outright too (for example), but for people with bad credit it's the only option. Of course, that would likely place them out of a house and into an apartment, which would probably have a washer and dryer too.

Why not wear other clothes in the closet? Well, assuming the school had a uniform policy....the same reason I couldn't wear my jeans to work in the hospital rather than my scrubs.

Hello Vickie (APROD),

You make some very good points. If the points you make about decent clothes that follow a basic dress code can be followed effectively in a student body, and the teachers and parents monitoring the students' behavior to curtail cruel behavior (at least on school property), most of the reasons to instill a student uniform policy disappear. This is true especially if that dress code has the active approval of the parents.

It is where the parents are unaware, unconcerned, or unable to assist their children in the school situation where a student uniform policy would be needed most.

At the very least, the clothes should fit well enough where a handgun (or rifle!!!)could not be concealed easily.

hi everyone, i was skimming through this thread (very interesting btw) and decided to post my own two cents

first thing first



I'm sorry, but that statement is incorrect. The military does NOT want robots. it wants bright out of the box thinking individuals who can react to emergencies in a manner which is most beneficial to the lives of his men. The purpose of boot camp is to train soldiers to be able to react intellegently and calmly under high stress situations. Uniforms are not there to strip individuality, they are there to act as a standard from which men (and women) can be gauged. who would you think is the superior soldier, the soldier who wears nicely polished shoes and a new pressed shirt, or the man whose shoes are scratched and their shirt is wrinkled and untucked? Personal appearence on the base teaches attention to detail, and that attention to detail can mean the difference between life or death on the battlefield

Works nicely in a place like the military, but not everyone belongs in the military (to no fault their own)

i went to military high school, and am now in a military college. I personally don't mind the uniforms at all, in fact i rather like them. I can find other ways to express my individuality other than what clothes i wear (btw, if you wear extra cheap clothes for any reason other than necessity or convenience, then you are no better or worse than someone who wear expensive and fashionable clothes) I like uniforms because not only does it eliminate the early morning hassle of deciding what to wear, but its another area for me to excel at. ten minutes a night and my shoes are black mirrors and I can shave while watching my reflection in my brass. Even a minimal amount of effort and i stand out from those who don't put out. It gets very easy to take pride in yourself when your uniform is looking nice, and when i go for a promotion, thats one more thing i have going for me.

back on topic, should those values be instilled in public schools? Being a libertarian i would say the problem lays somewhere else, but thats a problem for a different thread. This is a hard question to answer, but i would lean towards NO uniforms. If thats what they need to do to express themselves, let them.

I've been to a school with uniforms, a school without a dress code, and one with a limited dress code. The school with a uniform made life unfathomably easier. In the school without dress code, things got pretty hairy, but being an emerging young man in the 7th grade and seeing all the cute girls in low cut blouses, i didn't mind the limited dress code was hopelessly beaurocratic and difficult to work with. In addition to nearly 10 packed pages of instructions every few weeks or months a few new rules would come out trying to sort out all the various loopholes students were using. Major pain the rear.

Soooo, i would say that I don't agree with the government forcing someone not to do something that doesn't harm someone else, so if someone wants to wear different clothes, be they the latest FUBU or a 30 cent shirt at the salvation army, let them. I would think that by at least high school have the capacity to accept responsibility for themselves. Like if you wear gang paraphenalia you are running the risk of getting your butt kicked.

i don't see why they wouldn't want to wear a uniform, but thats just me

Picture walking into a classroom and seeing a teacher sitting behind their desk wearing short shorts, fuzzy blue slippers, and a shirt that says "you've been a bad girl, go to my room." Imagine walking into a library and spotting the librarian wearing a tank-top and pants so tight that pouches of fat fall over the top of them. If she bent over, her hot-pink thong would show. What if the President of the United States of America did the State of the Union Address wearing a red bandana and baggy pants that showed his scooby doo boxers. This would be ridiculous. All of these people would appear sloppy, unproffessional and just plain lazy. So why is that kind of clothing ok in our schools?
So many of you have said that "uniforms violate our right of freedom of expression." Since when is clothing the only way to express ourselves freely? We are all people with opinions and there are so many other ways to express yourself. You can write for the school newpaper, start a club, join debate, etc. Not to mention, the Declaration of Independence states that we have been endowed with rights such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The fact that I have to go to a school where I can't enjoy the liberty of sitting in a classroom without having to see girls walking in with stomaches, breasts, legs, and underwear exposed violates that right. Furthermore, all of the shirts that aren't home-made are simply spouting what corporations think. If you're so concerned with expressing your opinion, at least make your own instead of expressing what someone else says is your opinion.
I can recall multiple times in the past week alone where someone in one of my classes came in and people spent a couple minutes talking about how cute their out-fit was, and where did they get it, etc. I've observed guys spending more time checking out the breasts of a classmate instead of their seeing what knid of person they are. Why does this have to go on, and why are so many teenagers against uniforms? I personally hate that I need to get up an extra 20 or so minutes to pick out what I'm wearing each day. It would be so much easier to just have a uniform to put on, and it would put me in the mood for working at school. I've worn pijamas to school before and I can tell you from experience that it's nearly impossible to focus on what the teacher's saying when you're thinking about how comfy you are, and how the cute boy in the class complimented you on your outfit, and how cute you look in your little jammies. So before anyone says any more about freedom of expression, think about the freedom to learn without distractions. Isn't that what school is supposed to be for? Learning? It would be nice if that's what it was instead of a fashion show.

When are we going to stop being concerned with what we're wearing, and start caring about whether or not we're thinking? I don't want to be a walking advertisement for some company. I don't want the only thing that makes me an individual to be my clothing. When someone asks what makes me different from my peers, I'd rather tell them that I've been playing guitar for two years and I enjoy reading and speaking spanish, as opposed to saying that I'm different because I wear clothes from American Eagle instead of Abercrombie and Fitch. Am I alone in this opinion or not?

Kali, teachers have dress codes because they are performing at a job. What place of business doesn't have dress code regulations for its workers? Clothing is not the only way someone can express themselves, but it definitely is a part of it. Therefore, making people dress a certain way at a public school is a violation of the freedom of expression.

Futhermore, clothing is not strictly about expressing your opinion. In my school, people do wear other things besides labels. When I wear jeans and a t-shirt, am I expressing an opinion? No, I'm being comfortable.

Every school has a dress code, which should cover exposed stomaches, breasts, and other such body parts. If teachers enforced the current dress code, there would be no need to take such extreme measures such as uniforms.
Who cares if someone talks about how cute someone's outfit is? If they weren't talking about it, they'd be thinking about it, and either way, a couple minutes spent thinking about non-school related subjects has never killed anyone. It is impossible to be 100% focused on school 100% of the time.

All the distractions you talk about simply lead me to believe that you are very easily distracted. If I saw someone with a cute outfit, I'd compliment them and that's it. I wouldn't lose any sleep over seeing an exposed stomach. I used to, though. I used to get angry every time I'd hear some guy talking about what a girl wore, and get upset whenever I saw an exposed stomach. You know what my problem was? Jealousy. I wished the guys were talking about me, and wished they were complimenting me. I can't help but think you're a little jealous as well.

If choosing clothes every morning distresses you so much, then by all means go out and purchase a uniform, but that doesn't mean you should restrict everyone else's freedom of expression.

even so, those people who discuss what a girl has recently been wearing are what i like to classify as "morons" these "morons" tend to not be able to string words togetther in an understandable sentence, much less think creatively. but on the topic of uniforms in public schools. Being someone who just finished applying to high school, i remember looking to see if there was a uniform or a very strict dress code wouldnt apply. People who are insulted by a liberal view being expressed on a Tshirt should not be working in a public school. reasonable dresscoades are fine, as long as they are based on a current and necessary rule of ettiquette. for example students not wearing hats has long since become obsolete. responding to Kali ones indivuality is not being expressed solely by ones clothing. clothing is, to me at least, a reflection of what is inside.

Just about every job after school involves either a dress code or a uniform (even if it's a suit) and nightclubs have dress codes. Why on earth not have school uniforms when it is cheaper for parents, school kids can be easily identified out of school (useful for any number of reasons) and kids cease to have fashion peer pressure.

In Britain, the majority of schools, private and public, elementary and highschool, have uniforms of one kind or another. Some are just sweaters and trousers. Some are just sweaters - and freedom for everything else - while others are prescribed right down to sock color.

But the basic premise of "freedom of expression" holds no water if you pause for one second and look at the real world and the real adult world.

Ask why do adults were uniforms at work? They do that because it gives a sense of being in a team, a group (like in sports) and so that hierachy is based on behavior alone. It is also so that they can be differentiated from non-employees and so on.

Good point Schoolboy,

Uniforms would certianly create a sense of unity amoung the students. They owuld be unified in outwardly hating the uniforms and inwardly enjoying being a part of the school and wearing the symbol of it.


There is simply ZERO argument about rights, The Constitution, freedom of speech, or any of that rubbish when it comes to the question of clothing. In fact, attemtping to correlate fashion and the freedoms in the constitution is an attack on the philosophy written into those original documents. The authors of those texts were thinking about universal rights, abstract notions of justice, and human nature.
And here some people are trying to claim that these same notions are embodied in our choice of wardrobe when we go out in public. For shame!


Have a look at Rousseau's Social Contract

Basically he contends that government comes from the will of the governed and not God; That a failed government doesn't account for the basic freedoms due each individual, and that such a government can only occur when the people are willing to put aside their own desire for self-varification/control for the sake of the greater good.


In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't enjoy the (abstract version of) human rights and still indulge in all of your own self-gratifying ends.

It hurts no one to make concessions for the greater good of the society.
People telling young adults that they are immune to those concessions (because their desire to "express themselves" is more important) is nothing less than creating monsters....

Being a moderate I am in a good position to see how liberals like this make it so easy for conservatives to stay the course.....

Speaking from experience (K-8) I had to wear uniforms for nine years. When we were young it did not matter, we thought nothing of it. I think when we hit 4th or 5th grade we started hating them. We could only wear dress pants (blue or khaki), we must have a uniform shirt (navy blue, powder blue, and the latest addition, red), and must have a belt, with the shirt tucked in. The pants may not have any studs on it, or that little loop on the side.

In the summer, it got hot, really hot, and the teachers would not allow us to roll up our sleeves, or untuck the shirts. Did I mention the school did not have air conditioning?

Now, I hear people talking about income inequality showing through had we not have uniforms. Well, there is a public school where I went to, and you have no idea what we went through because of those uniforms. I would rather let everyone know my parents are on the lower end of the economic spectrum than be ridiculed for wearing a powder blue shirt with dress pants and a belt.

If that public school had uniform requirements as well, you wouldn't have been ridiculed for yours. Right? I doubt there would be a "my uniform looks cooler than your uniform" battle of the schools.

I've attended both public and private schools, and I can say that there was a more relaxed learning environment in the strictly dresscoded school that I attended than the public schools. We were required to wear collared shirts, khaki pants, and a belt every day. Having a more open dress code at public school really seperated everyone. I found it to be a lot easier to put on my simple, private school clothes than to try to come up with different outfits each day for public school. Uniforms or even just a strict dress code releave a lot of the stress of school. Instead of going to class worried about what you're wearing, you go to class thinking about what you should: school.

Simply put, unifroms remove a lot of unecessary distractions. Kids are in school only part of the day and part of the year. Save self expression for weekends and summer break. The benefits of uniforms outweigh the cons.

simply establishing uniforms wil not get rid of economic disparities. rich kids will get gap clothes, poor kids will get payless clothes, etc. this is aside from the blatant freedom of expression rules. public schools should not be able to do this because essentially the child must go there and does not choose whether or not they want this rule applied to them.

My daughter and I recently moved. Where we lived before the public schools required uniforms. Here there are no uniforms required. The big differences that we have noticed is that when the kids wear uniforms there are less "cliques" and the kids aren't concerned with their clothing, it has no part of defining who they are and they are much more focused on learning. Here, there are constant fights and problems, there are numerous "cliques" and people are defined and mistreated based on what they are wearing. There is MUCH less focus on learning.

I think a dress code is appropriate in school, but not uniforms. The use of uniforms is a simple minded way to address a more complex issue. The root issue is personal identity, if I am wearing a uniform I represent the culture of my uniform and not myself. Uniforms are typically used to impose a sense of unity.

Quite honestly I find any group of children who are from an academically engaged culture will perform with or without a uniform.

The bigger issue we are trying to address is diversity and the answer is, we are not individuals.

I think that is more of the students decision then the Schools administration because the teachers shouldn't be able choose what students wear, we are not their children. I also think that people who are made fun of should suck it up and make the best of what they have because there are a whole lot more people then what they have, and they should surely remember the rule of life, it's not fair.

Well, as I am sure I am old enough to be your grandmother, we used to have a dress code. Girls weren't allowed to wear slacks, and shorts were for gym class only(which was a required subject until your senior year). Boys always had to have a belt and their shirt must be tucked in. It didn't seem to hurt us! I have seen how young people dress today for school. School uniforms seems like a good idea to me. For that matter, kids do wear a uniform of sorts, but they can't see that. Just that most kids think they need that $50 t-shirt and $100 shoes. In the long road of life, most will find that it isn't as important as they thought.

I was just in a debate exactly like this one. It was interesting to read this debate and all the arguments. Uniforms in school are definitely something that not many high school students want to wear, but I firmly believe that if your only way of identifying yourself is through your clothing, then there is something majorly lacking in the schooling system these days.

Uniforms don't encourage students to pay as much attention to their apappearancetrue, but how is that a bad thing? As mature adults wth (possibly) children of your own, wouldn't you prefer to see your child making the most of their potential as opposed to---staring intently at the girl in the seat in front of him/her with the sparkly green thong and too-low-rider pants? Children aren't in school to talk about the styles of clothing that are the latest "craze". That is for after school, when the student is no longer in the classroom and having their attention focused on something else that is (hopefully) more important.

I am young and going to college. I personaly think that school uniforms should be considerd, with one exeption: some religious symbles should be alowed (free speach)

I don't believe that we necessarily need school uniforms. School dress codes are sufficient if administrators and teachers have the back-bone to actually enforce it. In regards to the work-place dress comment, I will say that I think they are really unncessary for the most part. A relative of mine taught at a community college in the '60s and was told to report kids that had long hair. She never did it because she thought questions pertaining to the war were worthy of her time and that long hair was a rather prurient matter to worry over. Styles and dress change, and managers are behind the times when it comes to allowing nose rings and jeans at work. It's what you pair them with that makes them look professional or regular in the first place. I just finished reading Richard Florida's book The Creative Class and how it documents how younger workers are changign the dress code policies of many places. I'm not so certain that lacking a workplace dress code is something that is a problem.

Uniforms are unnecessary. Dress codes that fulfill regular societal 'norms' are just fine. So no nudity, nipples, genitals, cracks, etc. The goal of the dress code is to establish a convenient and effective learning environment, not oppress the student body. When we focus on the articles of clothing and not the student involved than the whole attempt is worthless.

i am in favor of a dress code disallowing obscence clothes. however, telling people what to wear is not proper. this is a public school. children essentailly have to go there and i think an actual uniform policy should be reserved for private schools where people have a choice of attending. it violates the bill of rights.

peter

At least some dress codes would be nice, though. How do you tell how far to go on the dress codes?

I've gone to both private and public schools, and I honestly liked uniforms. Yes, at private school we had skirts that showed half of our bum, but that was because (at the time) we were ashamed to be in private school and wanted to show (incorrectly) that we weren't good little private school girls. But now that I'm at public school, not only do I see people judged because they're not wearing what's in style, but because they're wearing the same thing as someone else, or that they're wearing a weird color. At private school, uniforms made us better people. People were judged based on their character and views, not by what they wore. We made friends based on their personalities and who they were not the label or color or style they wore. In addition, people see uniforms as much more strict than they really are. We wore our own shoes, make-up, and jewelry...socks depended on the school. The pleated skirt and polo does not define who I am...my mind does.

very true!! in my private school, we even found loopholes. There will always be the teachers that don't care, and the principal can't see everyone. Girls will still wear skirts shorter than their underwear and jeans showing thongage. Guys will still show their boxers and wear shirts implying or outright stating sex or drugs. That is the way it is, unless a uniform is implimented. Don't take the first statement wrong however. Even though we fould loopholes, a loophole was not tucking in your shirt or not wearing a belt...we were still dressed respectably.

I have a friend who lives in California, but he is at school here at the University of Georgia I embolden the title University of Georgia because it is just that important of a school, but back to she subject.

He was telling of how his high school had a little more than 5000 students. And no dress code.

From what he tells, there was no horrible instances of obscene dress or problems with what girls (or guys for that matter) were wearing.

He says it is because they had no dress code, and it sounds pretty credible. Think of the problems we here in America have due to having such strict regulations.

I don't know what the ultimate good is between school uniforms or free speech, but I think that too much unnecessary time is spent trying to make sure kids have on the right thing.

Charter schools -- sadly many are choosing uniforms, which is disappointing....

Heck NO! i am a student and half the reason my parents have me there is for the right to expres yourself openly. i mean all students want the ability to be unique and one of the only ways to do that is by wearing something thazt identifies them as their own person.i have never met anyone who says " I want to wear uniforms." because you lose the individualism that makes you "you". so no I would protest and petition until i had my way if they ever did that.

This is a great personal experience and this argument is used for uniforms commonly. I completely agree that people should be judged entirely off of their personality, however there are major benefits to being able to wear what you want to when you are growing up. When I was 14-17 I used punk rock clothes and skate-boarder clothes to define my identity. I would not have the self confidence I have today if I hadn't had that shortcut to identity. Clothing style is the easiest way to differentiate between cultures, and cultures are immensely important to young adults. Uniforms limit the range of cultural expression into one bland mulch of semi-traditional color. Even if the uniforms are by one's standards fine, that doesn't mean they are fine by all.

Is it better to limit self-expression among teens? I don't think so. Better to limit the actual nature of this expression. Obviously no gang related clothing or obscene clothing, obscene is of course relative to the standards of the community involved.

Hmmm, how many people knew students/teachers who wore the same thing to school everyday? Think real hard -- a public school where a student/teacher wore the exact same thing everyday..... my point - it doesn't make sense when you have the freedom.... now a 2 year old whose favorite t-shirt is one thing or even Linus' blanket, but come one -- the same top and bottom everyday --

My sincere apologies for the one-liner....

I wanted to hear/read if anyone had comments on charter schools that are public schools that require uniforms.

I'm a brand new member and myself a high school senior.
This is my first post and I look forward to posting much, much more. It's good to be here.

All right, now to the situation at hand...
Presently my Speech class is doing a Debate tournament and the issue of School Uniforms has already been covered--Against won, just to let you all know; it's kind of funny since the Against consisted of one young woman against two. Telling the truth, she really did a much better job than the Affirmative side.
Statements for the affirmative side consisted of not having to judge everyone because everyone's wearing the same thing, the lack of profain and suggestive material (as discussed several times from what I've read), and the fact that the entire feeling of unity often brings the student body together instead of people always falling into cliques. Also students don't have to spend hours deciding what to wear in the mornings--I take approximately five minutes to get dressed most days; I do not know anyone who takes an hour to decide what shirt goes with what pair of shoes--and those that do seriously frighten me.
For the negating side, Heather made some great points that although the common thought that it holds back your personality--for, unfortunately, many people are who they are by the sleeves on their arms--and it doesn't allow you to be creative, that really doesn't matter because of course you can be who you are within your mind, but it's also sadly true that people read t-shirts and, when they say something, they tend to think about it. Other times after seeing oceans of "1 tequila, 2 tequila, 3 tequila floor!" shirts, anything that has any merit just doesn't stick in the average joe's head--and they don't really care. But more to the point of the cost and the problem of having to buy a student's school uniform as well as street clothes.
I know for a fact I'd never have gone to a private school--one, my father had horrible experiences with the nuns when he was in grade school, and two because we're not priveleged--mostly because throughout my life, as short as it has thus far been, I haven't really had a lot... Well, I haven't had a lot by American standards. Anyway, my father could never had afforded it nor would I really want to have gone to a public school. More than likely I would have gone insane from the lack of diversity, much like the insanity that has been deposed unto me because of the redneck, Wonder bread highschool I have been attending and am looking forward to leaving.
The tuition of attending a Catholic boarding school in New Milford county(?), Connecticut is $28,500 K-12. Personally, I find that to be somewhat excessive. And the fact that the uniforms can cost at upwards of fifty dollars per outfit through the schools, websites such as Childrensschooluniforms.com at stance as a third party are at least helping that along.
Countries such as Japan, although strict with their learning, all private schools and only 1/3 of the public schools require uniform dress, but even so as the children get into highschool, they aren't so strict as American public schools and wouldn't dare attack a child rather than have them stand out in the hall as a punishment--or let their parents decide the best punishment.

If I haven't made clear of my stance, I apologize and I'll make it clear now. I personally am against uniforms being implimented in public schools. Although one may say that they prevent cliques and school violence, this simply is not the case. Even in British boarding schools you'll have kids splitting up as covered in a Discovery channel documentary about public schools (I tried to find an online link about this documentary but I couldn't locate anything) and school dress. There is less of a liablity for outright fighting to break out but, truth be told, not by all that much.
All this being said, I have to admit that most female dress outfits are quite aesthetic.

I hope that I made a fair impression with my first post, or at least a small dent.
And to all those that actually read this far, thank you very much!

~Pau-Goat~

Cites:
http://www.cga.state.ct.us/2002/olrdata/ed...2002-R-0269.htm
http://www.childrensschooluniforms.com/
http://www.histclo.hispeed.com/schun/count...p/schunjap.html

I'd like to thank all the high schoolers here at A.D. for their contributions to this discussion, a lot of good points have been brought up. I agree with UGA Boy about how when you don't have a policy, such problems arise but then disappear afterwards. It's only human nature to not want to do(or wear) something until there is a stigma that says "don't do it!" I know a couple who keeps their house loaded with chocolate and other candies-but their kids don't gorge themselves on it because it's always around. Now if the parents had flipped out about junk food.......

Given that line of reasoning, perhaps by having dress codes and the like, we are truly doing our kids a disservice. Yes, you don't dress the same everyday(as someone adroitly pointed otu) nor do you work with people who are only the same age as you. If we inhibit expression, how are kids to express themselves in the real world?? Perhaps utopian and naive on my part, but just something to consider.

Hi,

I'm another new member here. I grew up in England and moved here just 2 years ago and while I know the social climate here is a lot different, I can't help but think it would be a good idea to have more public schools implement a school uniform policy.

My experience has been that while you're wearing uniform you complain and grouch about it all the time, it does solve/help some problems.

I always liked not having to worry about what to wear (I've always had a hard time getting up in the morning anyway). It was also one less thing to get picked on about. I've heard a lot of people say that to have a uniform policy is to make everyone conform and stamp out individuality. Maybe it is - that has not been my experience though. There are enough different style skirts, or hairsyles, or ways to bend rules to express yourself when it comes to uniform. We often had kids wear a shirt under uniform so the lettering showed, or roll up skirts. You can have badges or patches for playing on teams, or for doing well in school. It was made more fun too, by having a couple of days a year when you were allowed your own clothes, but the teachers had to come in school uniform, and they would have fun with it and break as many uniform rules as they could too. It's also a lot easier to keep track of pupils when out on field trips (if your a teacher, or just a pupil who has wandered off and looking for your class). Shopping for new uniform was a fun day out - it was exciting to be getting a new (more grownup) uniform for school, especiall yin your last two years when at my school you got to wear *gasp* a Special Tie. It sure feels good playing a game too, seeing all those people in your own colours cheering your team on.

Just my 2 cents, anyway. Thanks!

Good to have ya here UK-USA, you will really enjoy yourself here at America's Debate. Welcome and keep posting! I graduated from a private school and they didn't resort to uniforms until after I garduated. A perspective on this issue from those who've actually experienced it is probably the best basis that we can agree to agree or disagree on this issue. Anyone else have any experience with this?

Myself, I have been in both situations. I used to go to a private school where school uniforms were mandatory. I now go to a public HS where there are no uniforms.

I personally love not having uniforms. School uniforms tend to be pricey and aren't all that high in the quality-zone. For one, the shoes are utter crap. I went through about 3 a year. Besides that, most of all the kids just tend to hate the way the uniforms look. Unless you guys are all into golf shirts with yellow and red pinstriped blue ties, sweater vests, gray pants, stinky belts itchy sport coats and cheap quality but pricey murky shoes.

Now, for the other side.

People say all the time that differences in privately owned clothes create tension, animosity, and all that other hoo-ha. The only time kids get made fun of are in a joking manner by their friends. Like a kid who wore what looked like an emo shirt, but advertised the marines. He's now known as the Emo-rine