Yes. Thank you. This is a very valid point. While the founding fathers did not want government endorsement one religion, it is evident from their letters and other writings they their intention was not to have God removed from the public forum. It is appropriate to have the phrase 'under God' in the pledge and to have this recited in schools.

"The Pledge of Allegiance, (ignore the "under God" controversy)"
-from the title of this thread.

The question, from Victoria Silverwolf :


Link from pages 1 and 3 that gives the history of the Pledge, written by a socialist minister in 1892. The "under God", off-topic, bit was added under Eisenhower by the Knights of Columbus to differentiate us from the USSR.

As a person who was born, and for the first 7 years lived, in Communist Russia, I am rather familiar with forced patriotism. Just as an example, as a 5 year old kid going into first grade, I had to wear a red star with a picture of Lenin on it pinned to my school uniform every day. Mandated patriotism is probably the best way to ensure the hatred of said country. Over there, it got forced down your throat non-stop. The vast majority of the people hated it. For me, and for many others, one of the top reasons to be patriotic is that we do not have to. I love living in a country where I have the complete freedom to badmouth it, burn the flag, swat flies with a rolled up constituition, etc. THAT is something to be patriotic about. IMO, forcing people to recite the pledge out of respect for our freedoms or the people that died defending it disrespects both. Love of one's country is not something you can teach. Taking away freedoms, including the freedom to not be patriotic is a great way encourage contempt that grows into hatred. I never liked having to say the pledge when I was in school. It was a pointless, mandated ritual. Take any word and repeat it 10-20 times, and it turns into gibberish. How many kids actually think about the meaning of the pledge during their daily recital?

As far as "under God", I think it either needs to disappear, or be changed to "under God, Goddess, multiple Gods, or whatever other mythological being we put our faith in." Ridiculous, isn't it? Just as rediculous as having "under God." Nobody should be enforcing God in government any more than they should be outlawing him in churches. Nothing wrong with "Godless", as someone put it.

Okey dokey.
Where do American students go to school: AMERICA
Where do American students live: AMERICA
Where do the students' schools get there money from: AMERICANS
Where will the students go after they graduate: The AMERICAN workforce.

Is it that unreasonable for kids to say 30 some words about a country that is already giving them so much, of course not.

CP

Eariler in the thread I stated that I believe the Pledge should leave the schools because I don't think kids she put in the middle of a partisan fight.

Does it bother any of those who support the Pledge in schools that the kids are caught in the crossfire?

I only ask those who support the Pledge because the only way kids won't be placed in the middle is if the Pledge is out of the school.

Thanks,
M L Iserman

I also said this in the flag-burning thread...
It is unthinkable for a student to bring up a higher power in class... and yet the can be forced to pledge LOYALTY to a PIECE OF CLOTH.
That line means as much here as it did there.

Therein lies the problem, it's not the cloth that you would be pledging loyality to, it is everything that that cloth stands for, which includes the opportunities that that cloth has given to millions of people, including you and me. As I said, it's not unreasonable to say about 25-30 words [that you don't even have to mean] about something that has done more than its fair share for you.

CP

Forced patriotism? Very Orwellian dont you think, and something I would worry about very much if it was forced on my kids.

Being patriotic is a good thing. It is up to children around the world to come to their own conclusions on what they believe in and what they think, especially with regards to their own nation. I am a patriot, but if I was forced to pledge allegance to my country(ies) I would lose that patriotism instantly. I cannot love a nation that sees patriotism as a required way of thinking.

Under no circumstances should something be installed into the minds of impressionable children. It has to be said most kids don't have a clue what they believe in, they are just too darn open to what the world tells them: be it advertising, peer pressure or media coverage. I was disgusted that Christianity was so blatantly promoted during my school years (looking back I'm sure my schools were in breach of protocol) and that at primary school kids had to say prayers. If that was my kids now in the same situation I'd be livid.

As an option, pledging allegance in schools should be allowed, but not mandatory. But even then there is scope for corruption, who is to say what a child should do? Pressure from other kids? Or teachers? Or even the wishes of a parent? Ok I was baptised, I never had a choice, but I'm not too upset about it. But it was my parents wishes that I be a christian (even though neither of them are, and my mum is more devoted to Budhism ). So even they have changed their minds, but their decision has left me with something for life.

Sorry for the off topic comparisons to religion, but I see patriotism being just as important. They are both things that every individual has to think about and decide for themselves. I cannot tolerate bullying, which in my view is what forcing your beliefs on children is.

so if it means nothing to me, why should I be forced to recite it? that is forced patriotism, which tends to end badly, as loom pointed out.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america, and to the republic for which it stands

I don't give my allegiance to cloth, any cloth, and refuse to pay allegience to a nation that I view as a rouge state and terrorist nation. I refuse to pledge my allegience to the system of the nation as well. I do not agree with many of the ideals of america. and, no, I will not leave, I will stay to fight to fix what I view as a broken system.

oh and by the way, the 9th circuit court of california was correct in stating the pledge was un-constitutional. it violates the first amendment.

there is only one religion that refers to their diety as "god" and that is christianity. (jews call it yhwh (yehweh) muslims allah) the law establishing the pledge was one respecting an establishment of religion, (christianity, and referring to their god) which congress is forbidden to do.

I've never noticed the word unreasonable in the first amendment, or anywhere else in the constitution save Amendment number 4. Strangely enough it doesn't appear anywhere else in the Declaration of Independence either. If the founding fathers didn't expect it, and the intents framers are held in such high regard, then why do you cling to such an appalingly patriotic idiosyncracy?

If the pledge means nothing to you than you aren't patriotic, if you aren't patriotic, then patriotism isn't being forced on you. If you do appreciate the pledge, then you are patriotic, but it isn't forced on you. You guys make it sound like the pledge is mesmorizing, everyone who says it belives in it, that isn't the case, so there really isn't a problem.

UJ, haven't seen you in a while, hello, my point is that the country [not cloth] that is being pledged toward has done so much for those pledging it is boarderline ungrateful not to at least thank the country that has provided said opportunities. Just a little gratitude is all I'm asking, and again, it isn't asking for much.

CP

If you were to see a veteran standing feebly at a corner, apprehensive to cross the street would you stop to help him get across or would you salute him or say some catch-phrase that you saw on TV? You'd help him across the street. A person demonstrates gratitude in their own way; a personal act of respect and appreciation means more to me (and most people I know) than something that I've been reciting ad nauseum in school for twelve years.



This really doesn't make any sense. I am a patriotic (to an extent) Canadian, and I don't pledge allegiance; nor do I sing the national anthem every morning. They are symbols. I attach myself to the things that have real meaning in defining Canada. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Prime Minister, our history. These are the things that have value to me as a patriotic Canadian. As an American, if you salute the pledge because you think it's important then you could probably call yourself patriotic; but what right do YOU have to tell other people how they should demonstrate their patriotism?

You know, I'm just repeating what I'm hearing, I'm getting the impression, not from me, but from you guys, that if ou don't say the pledge that you are unpatriotic, I don't believe it, maybe I'm misunderstanding. However I am not telling anyone how to express patriotism, so yeah.

Just to make my point again, if I say Liberalism is great every morning of my life, I don't nessesarily believe it, same with the pledge.

CP

If I ask my kid to say the pledge she says the whole bit that everyone here is discussing and then she goes into this song and dance routine with this song she has learnt "gonna start a brand new day'
This is what she does in class...they say the pledge then sing their happy morning song so to her it is an all in one package. I have no problems with it, I am hardly ultra patriotic, I am not religious and yet I just do not feel it is a big deal. I love America, and I love this world as a whole. I feel a certain affinity to Americans and America itself but I do not feel any kind of superiority. I also love my original country and have also taught my children to sing god save the queen which they use to say in British schools but no longer do. Just is kind of a cultural thing...I do not feel that by teaching my kids god save the queen or having them recite the pledge is indoctrinating them into anything..just think it is a sharing of a cultural ideal.

I don't think schools should require students to say the Pledge of Alligence. For one thing, most elementry school children have no idea what they're saying. All they know is that they say it every morning. If you're going to make children say the Pledge, you should at least tell them what they're saying!

However, its not required to say the Pledge in school as long as you have a parent's permission. At least that's how it was at my middle school, and I'm assuming its the same in my high school. (btw, I'm currently attending HS in case you were wondering).

Most people I know (teens) don't take the Pledge seriously, and most of us wouldn't even say it unless a teacher was standing right there, telling us to. For example, I remember my friend has a homeroom teacher who would watch everyone to make sure they were saying the Pledge. If she didn't think you were saying it loud enough, or if she didn't see you saying it all, she made you stand in front of the class and recite it by yourself in the front of the room.

Yes The Pledge Of Allegence should be recited. America was founded 170 years ago on Christian principles. Not only was the Bible used as a text book for everyday teaching so were the ten commandments posted in every class room and prayer recited several times a day. Ever since 1962 when Prayer was taken out of schools there has been a decline in morals, which has incresed crime, pregnacies, drugs, low test scores and so much more.

Benjamin Franklin said " Whosoever shall introduce into public affairs the principles of... Christianity will change the face of the world for good."

Get rid of God totally in this nation then we are in very big trouble.

I think you need to read the debate "what was american founded on" before you quote someone like Ben Franklin and company, but this is a different debate than God (again)

I would LOVE to see the ORIGINAL pledge be recited in schools, but that has nothing to do with patriotism one way or another.

Every male member of my family to the revolutionary war has served in the military, because we are a family of patriots. Many did not come back. I went to 2 funerals of family members myself in my life, saw my cousin very badly injured on a "routine training jump" when we were in the gaurd together, and am returning to military service again myself soon. THAT is patriotism, not reciting some moldy pledge, or blindly listening to the bunk your president (or even general) is spewing. It is serving your country DESPITE it being horribly politically wrong! I fear for the freedom of my country every day, not from enemies from without, we can crush them any day of the week, it has been demonstrated. No, it will be from within, by the Christian coalition, or Right leaning generals, or the republican party, or a coalition of all three. I fear for the same take over that ceasar capitalized on, a corrupt system that allowed a "moral" man to take all power to himself , to "reform" and bring back "the old religions our founding fathers had".

170 years ago? Perhaps you meant to say 227 years ago. Anyway, your post seems to making an attempt to show why prayer should be in schools and has nothing to do with the pledge of allegiance except for the first sentence. I, for one, see no reason why either should be allowed anywhere near a building of learning and education. Furthermore, the phrase in the pledge referring to "god" wasn't even inserted into it until 1954, 62 years after it was first written.

Victoria made it quite clear from the beginning:
Closer attention to the topic will show that this debate is not over the use of any deity in the Pledge, but rather addresses the issue of requiring students to recite a political oath.

I think I meandered in my post a bit, but to boil it down, the pledge, as it was originally written, (as opposed to the 1954 propaganda version) is good for children to recite, it conforms to the universal ideals of our country, but it is not really patriotism, that comes from within and deeds to your country.

..............When younger going to school, it was unheard of not to say the "Pledge " but as kids we did not think much about it or what the words really meant!....................
Now after getting older and have served, I feel like this:

I think anyone in the public school system or private school,living in this country,should know it and understand what it represents. If they take it away or leave it in schools makes no difference any more. Things change and so do we!
I think people go over board on too many un important and small things and we as americans are to TOUCHY! Everyone is so offended at one thing or another, but in fact, as schools go are really in trouble!
Safe sex and accessbility to free condoms and the pill have replaced, quiet prayer time, and Political correctness as shielded the truth. I have observed alot of change in this country since the 70's, most of for the good, and beneficial to all, but Teachers need more pay, schools need better Academic structure and all schools need to be on the same level.
Sorry for the mouthful I Love this country, I just wonder sometimes if we are worried about to many UNIMPORTANT things!

After reading some of your thoughts, I understand your points.

Patriotism is not a a Idea it's a state of being!

And even though I served my country, that does not make me any more patriotic than some one that has not!

But i do agree, everyone in school should know it! :

One of the more unknown changes in my school district is that this year we are forced to say it each morning. I am thankful that both of my morning teachers (world history ap teacher doesnt, and law teacher doesn't...but i suspect it's only because of his superior when he says "when you're an officer, you think you can say 'i have the right not to?' No, you can't.") What is the purpose of it, except to force children to think the way that whoever enacted it does? Does anyone actually think that more than a few of these kids actually understand what they say, and mean it? To make those that don't is not just hypocritical, but it also does nothing more than make kid A, B, and C chant a few sentences that they won't mean or won't care about because the ones that did would stand regardless of being forced too. It's a ridiculous policy that increase the cynicism and bitterness of the children who don't do it.

Why not? We can make the argument that learning and saying the pledge is part of the educational process.

As for the “under God” words that were added later. So what. They are still part of the Pledge regardless of when they added.

Do any of you believe that forcing childen to speak the pledge (original or 1954 propaganda anti-communist version) actually has anything to do with the eventual moral upbringing of your children? Do those of you who are parents actually believe your child will be somehow disadvantaged or have his moral development stunted if he/she is not forced to recite the pledge?

Do children who are forced to speak the pledge become better citizens, more moral, or more loyal patriots than those who are not forced to do so? Is there any actual value added to the whole process?

What does repeating the same mantra every morning teach a child? What is the lesson here? You can make that arugment for LEARNING the Pledge, but not for REPEATING the Pledge every day.

I don't believe anyone should be required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. People should say the Pledge because they want to.

How about as a reminder of our duty to our country as well as to ourselves? Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died defending our Republic and I don’t see how repeating a pledge to that Republic, it’s flag and the freedoms we enjoy cam be looked at as being anything but a good thing

I don't really know anyone my age- the ones who are "forced" to say the pledge- who really thinks anything about America or the people who have died defending it when we say the pledge (and besides, it's much too early to contemplate such matters ); it's just a routine that we go through and no thought goes into it. After repetition over many years any thought at all that went into it is lost anyway and it becomes totally meaningless to us, just something we recite and then move on. I don't think anyone should be forced to say the pledge, and although nobody is forced to, certainly nobody will sit it out because they would be brandished a traitor. My chemistry teacher is a rather outspoken Southern Baptist minister (ahh, Tennessee, the only state where a Baptist preacher is also a BIOLOGY teacher) and one day he decided to enlighten us about how he feels when someone fails to recite the pledge, including terms such as "nut" and "traitor." I, being the loyal ACLU traitor that I am, reminded him that he cannot force any student to recite a loyalty oath to a piece of cloth (not in those terms, of course) and that some have a genuine moral objection to such practices. He said that he still thought that they should be shipped off to Iraq. I ended it there because some people just cannot see that in a free society people are not generally forced against their will to pledge allegiance to anything, especially a swath of fabric. Needless to say, I'm not a big fan of the pledge of allegiance because it really seems out of place in our society; loyalty oaths and declarations of devotion to a nation or flag belong in a fascist state, not here. I have no problem with saying the pledge myself, I do it as a matter of national pride and to prevent my certain ostracism. But are there not other ways to remind ourselves of the sacrifices made for our country? I think quite often about those sacrifices without having to be prompted by the pledge of allegiance. Many people say that it is a matter of respect to those who died for the flag. My late grandfather, a Battle of the Bulge veteran, told me how to deal with this charge one time: "Neither I nor any other man out there were fighting for some piece of fabric; we were fighting for our families and our country." Does the pledge really belong here? Is it really befitting of a free society to make its citizens pledge allegiance to that society and its flag? I think not. We can all easily be reminded of the great country we live in without it.

Edited for grammatical reasons

Listen im 16 almost 17. I merely have to go back 3 years to remember when I was forced to say the pledge. I hated it. The people in my class were disinterested in it. Its a bore. 3 people out of 30 sang. The rest of us lip sang and stared at hot classmate's bodies. It is unessesary and unfair to make kids say this with god involved. The orginal pledge was godless why cant our current one be? Te US is made for us all not for the many christians. I bet you people would object if a Hindu American president started condemning cow eating. However you seem elated that a president and major politicians like to force god on people. One religion is not better then the other. The US should remain secular.

A reminder of our duty to our country... I have an idea. Instead of repeating a meaningless speech every day no matter how short it is, how 'bout we go DO something good for our country instead? Saying something doesn't make you a good citizen, it doesn't make you patriotic, it doesn't make you better. Taking action to improve your surroundings is far more helpful. Let's think about this... 25 seconds to say the pledge, five times a week, forty weeks a year (in school) times the thirteen years you're in school. That's A LOT of HOURS you could be spending doing something more useful. People say it so many times that it's not a REMINDER. They say it automatically... they don't even have to think about which word comes next.

I don't think the Pledge should be mandatory. I don't even think it belongs in schools, basically. If someone wants to say the Pledge in homeroom then they can stand up and do it while the announcements are going over the loudspeaker, but the fact that we HAVE to do it EVERY day for no apparent reason is not only NOT 'what America stands for' but it's just plain stupid and a waste of time. Having my homeroom teacher give me dirty looks every morning when I don't say it shouldn't happen. I wish I could say something to her... but I've never gotten a detention and I'm not about to. And before someone says I'm 'ungrateful' for what my 'country' has 'done for me' I'd like to say that I'm glad I live here where I have a lot more 'freedoms' than in other countries, but I never asked it to be like that- it's an accident of birth- and I owe them nothing.

I believe it should be required. America was founded on principles relating to this and we need to keep out principals alive.



I would always pledge alligence to my country. I mean there arnt too many countried like america out there that provide for freedom.

Indivisable-Incapable of undergoing division. Hey at least we both agree on that i mean the democrats are clearly going to loose :-P Oh America was indivisable on September 11 2001 when we had what i call "the big patriot move". But it seems we are slipping in this section

With Liberty and Justice for all- It may not exist on this globe, but the good thing about this is we are STRIVING to reach this goal. However it is almost impossible. Justice for all Means Justice for all, you might have a different idea on how Saddam is tried then me.

Even when, for the most part, it's just a dull and meaningless ritual to the person saying it?



I hardly think that America was founded on anything with even an iota of resemblance to pledging absolute obedience to a country and its flag. That's what freedoms are for; they allow people who are uncomfortable pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth and a country not to do so. As I've pointed out, it's really a waste of time because any intended meaning behind it is lost through the rote process we apply to it. I have no problem with people who desire to say the pledge; it is their right to do so. But I don't think it makes sense to allot time for an oft-meaningless mantra. If someone doesn't want to say the pledge why should they be branded a traitor or such? The pledge doesn't belong in school if the people who do not want to say it face ostracism or disfavor from the teacher and the "patriotic" students; these students may not face disciplinary action, but what they receive isn't much better. Like I've said, I think that standing up and making a pledge to a flag and a country does seem a little fascistic to me... maybe that's just me. But I hardly think that the pledge should be required if for no other reason because it is usually just a recitation without any thought.

Some of you folks are making it sound like saying the Pledge is like pulling teeth. Does it really hurt you? Does it really offend you to say something? And if you don't mean it, are you being forced to be patriotic? No, so what's the big deal?

CP

I think that the intention behind the pledge is that it is something to remind us of our duty as citizens and all that jazz. To be quite frank, it's not really serving that purpose. Patriotism is a true love of one's country and shouldn't have to be effected by repeating some usually empty slogan. I show my patriotism in other ways and saying the pledge certainly doesn't ignite some patriotic fire in me. I like to do away with useless extras and it seems to me that the pledge has become just that. Don't get me wrong, I think that if anyone really thought about all the sacrifices made for our country and our duty as citizens when they were saying the pledge I might feel a little differently. But as it stands the pledge is just something to be repeated without any thought at all. Granted, it's no major waste of time, but the people who don't say the pledge are often given that stern look of utter disapproval from the teacher and are usually ostracized as being "un-American" or the like. That's the big deal. The pledge should be a voluntary act of devotion to one's country and if someone doesn't feel that they desire to show that devotion they certainly shouldn't face social retribution.

I'd like to second TLW's opinion, and add that wearing your patriotism on your sleeve does not make you a patriot. There are a lot of people who claim to love America yet they do nothing to help it short of military service. A person might hang a flag outside their doorstep and sing at the top of their lungs at baseball games, but the rest of the time, they simply work for their own good and not the good of the country.

Others look at the way America is today and work as hard as they can to improve it. They see that America, as great as it is, is not perfect yet and they strive to make it a better place. That's true patriotism. And it is these people who see the hypocrisy in the pledge and cannot bring themselves to recite it when they know that those ideals have not yet been achieved by a nation which has the means to achieve them. In fact, in many ways we are behind other countries which have been less fortunate and prosperous than ourselves.

And CP, yes it does hurt me to recite the pledge because I am one of those who sees the flaws in our great country and knows that there is a much greater potential to be reached.

So it hurts because our country isn't perfect. Okay...I understand that the country isn't perfect, no country is, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing to say the pledge before school. And if it means nothing to students then so be it, I doubt that they mind having that take away class time.

CP

You could very well ask yourself should public schools be used as a means of promoting patriotism and love of country? That IS the intent of this pledge.

If not, then where/how do ‘we’ learn the importance of patriotism? Leave it up to the nuclear family? With few exceptions it simply won’t happen and it’s never too early to start getting this message across to the youngsters, I’m constantly surprised at what they do understand.

And as pointed out, I’m sure most of the younger ones don’t know the words, much less their meaning. So after I read this thread and before I posted, I asked my friends 9 year old son what he though it meant.

His exact reply “Wellllll, I guess it means we need to be nice to our country”. OK, he didn’t hit the nail on the head, but he was right and he’s STARTING the process of becoming a responsible citizen. And if one child starts to gets the message at that age then it’s worth every minute.

In a nation that’s quickly becoming secular with all the political correctness we need to promote the united in the United States of America. This pledge is a great place to start.

I agree completely. The pledge is not perfect and it's not going to suddenly make someone patriotic. How could it? It's only thirty-some words. But those thirty-some words are important. School children might not realize it now (and maybe they never will), but I was one of those kids who said the pledge but didn't think about it at the time, but now, I look back and think that those words did have an effect on me, even though I didn't realize it. I think they're important and stand for things even the most liberal of us can agree with (assuming we're ignoring the "under God" phrase).

Repeat after me:

I pledge my life, to this gas pump, of the Confederation of Tucketninniwawa. And to the city-state for which it stands, one people, under Cyclops, always fair, with chips and Kool-aid for all.


Now say that every morning for the rest of your life. Let's take a few examples from this:
Do we ALL agree that this city-state is under Cyclops? Or any city-state for that matter?
Do we think that everything in the city-state is necessarily fair?
Does everybody in the country get chips and Kool-aid?


Does this physically hurt you to say it every morning? Physically, no. Would it offend you to be forced to say that Cyclops is watching over you every morning, even if you don't believe it? I think so. Even if you don't mean it, and it doesn't prove your undying love for Tucketninniwawa, of course it's not forcing you to believe it. But Tucketninniwawa is supposed to always be FAIR, and making you say something that you don't believe in, isn't fair.

The big deal is that you just admitted that it's not forcing us to be patriotic. So the point is that there's NO POINT in saying it in the first place. It's there, it doesn't improve the way people feel about the country, so what's the point? It serves no purpose. You say, "if it means nothing to students, then so be it." If it means nothing, then really, why say it at all? Why do you think they should require it if you agree that it does nothing? And yes, I would rather be in AP Physics LEARNING something than being forced (undemocratically) to recite the pledge.

In a country so vocally dedicated to the freedom of its citizens it would seem we would want to avoid any form of possible indoctrination. The Pledge of Allegiance, while conveying a predominantly positive message, is essentially no different or better than the propaganda practices of Communist Russia it was meant to counter. In a continuing effort o vocally defend the freedom of American citizens it may sound good to defend the pledge, but requiring citizens to pledge an oath to the state is not in practice honoring what this country was supposedly founded for. Quite simply, actions speak louder than words.

I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America

"Allegiance." What does that mean to them, exactly?

I don't really see what the big deal is. If you don't want to say it, don't. If you do, do. It's all a matter of personal preference and should not be forced upon anyone.

Just an idea: Before we impel children to repeat it over and over again without understanding what they're saying, why not dissect it, go over it, and let them decide for themselves?

Okay, so it's a bit unrealistic and I hardly think that any teacher is going to take the time out of class to do it, but I think it would be quite a simple approach to this whole GASP HORROR indoctrination thing.

Wow. Really skipped around in this one...

Then the "teacher" should not be "teaching".

They take the time (force) to say the Pledge, but they do not take the time to make them understand what it means.

This is very very dangerous, what are the next step? Have Presidential election whitout voters? Perhaps separate christians and jews?

It could lead to anything is all im saying.

Because it means something to some...Some know what the Pledge represents...some respect what the Pledge represents so much so that even if they don't actually care to say it all the time they understand why it is said. America has given a lot of opportunities to people in schools, giving America oh, what, a few sentences that take up minimal time every day is not unreasonable at all.

CP

You do know that "under God" was added during the 50ths to show that americans where not "evil" commies non?

And why should "new americans" be _forced_ to say it to become a american citizen? What if they have a different God then the Christian?

What if they dont care about the US goverment, They ARE told to trust & believe in everything the US goverment tells them, you dont find this strange?

What about the children? To believe things they dont even know about...

You're missing the point quite a bit...the original question was whether or not children should be required to say the Pledge in public schools.



What do you propose to get them to understand exactly what they're saying? As I said before, you either want to say it or you don't, but here is my other point:

While I'm not downplaying the power or effects of indoctrination, as children grow older, they do learn to think for themselves (to an extent ). Sooner or later, any student who's been saying the Pledge will start to think about it; it's just natural.

What comes out of that is personal decision or preference. In any case, it should not be required, that much I do agree with. But nor do I think that it should be completely banned...

ok, lets put it like this then:

Look at the people of United States today, and then remember that they once where children, and remember the word indoctrination.

They should explain "the pledge" for the children, word by word.

That is just a full-on generalization. Not everyone is as much of sheep as you think.

Of course not, i just wanted to show you what indoctrination does to people.

If its an entire population or one person does not really mean anything, it is still wrong.

I see where some of you are coming from. You're right, the pledge isn't harming us and the time that it takes to say the pledge is so minimal that it really has no effect whatsoever; but it's the principle of the thing. I have no problem with people saying the pledge of their own accord; they're quite welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned. The problem is that we make our kids start saying the pledge before they even realize what they are saying- I started in preschool! This is indoctrination, a loyalty oath if you will. Plus you are skirting the issue of ostracism. If a kid doesn't want to say the pledge in a roomful of people who think that it's the "patriotic" thing to do, do you think that the kids who repeat the pledge are not predisposed to think that the kid who sits out is un-American or unpatriotic? I think so. Kids don't care why a kid is sitting out and even if they ask him/her why he/she sits out they have already made the judgment that the kid is unpatriotic or such. Is this what we want? Do we want these kids who'd prefer not to say the pledge to feel like a pariah? Sounds reminiscent of the Soviet Union. And you act as if it's nothing if the kids who are saying the pledge don't think or care about the meaning; indeed it's very important because it's the whole aim of the pledge. Can a kid really develop the love of country and sense of duty which the pledge should theoretically instill if he/she doesn't care about the meaning? I think not. It's not a reminder to these kids of the great country in which we live; it's just something they have to say. It's seems almost like a travesty to the intentions behind the pledge if that's all it is to them.