Should the Pledge of Allegiance be required for school students in public schools? (I disregard private schools here, who are free to require reciting anything from "The Communist Manifesto" to "Mein Kampf." Let's also disregard whether there should be public schools at all. Especially, let's disregard the huge "Under God"/Separation of Church and State controversy as an entirely different issue.)

The issue I wish to address is whether this sort of political oath should be required of students. Freely recited by those who wish to, of course. But should those who do not wish to -- or those who are too young to have an informed opinion -- be required to recite it? Or, if not actually required, should those who choose not to join in the recitation be exposed to possible ostracism as eccentrics, weirdos, and traitors?

I recited this as a very young child, without knowing what I was saying. Later, the school stopped doing this. If I would be asked to recite it today, I would have objections:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands

(Sorry, I do not promise perfect loyalty to any symbol or organization of any kind.)

One nation, under God, indivisible

(Well, I guess it's literally "one nation" -- but indivisible? Under any circumstances? I think not.)

With liberty and justice for all.

(This is a nice goal, but does it exist in any nation on Earth? Certainly not.)

To be debated: Should the Pledge of Allegiance be required of public school children, offered to them by school leaders but not absolutely required, or recited only under strictly voluntary, student-led situations? Obviously, I favor the latter.

Of course it should! And those who don't participate should feel ostracized. There are many things about our country that need changing. But the fact remains, it is our country.

I would hope that a young boy or girl whose parent tells him not to say the Pledge feels like a loner when school starts. I would hope that he or she looks around at his classmates and begins to wonder, 'i wonder what's wrong with my mommy'.

I thank God each and every day for the fact that I've been blessed to live in this country. And I pledge each and every day to work towards making it even better. And I vow to protect this great nation from those within who work to slowly erode and degrade it. And one way to do that would be to insure that my children knew it was their right and privilege to pledge their allegiance and to make certain that those who were being told not to were being led astray and were placing themselves on the outside looking in.

But why is doing it out loud necessary? Isn't the national anthem sufficient. I LOVE being a Canadian, but I don't feel that standing up chanting some pseudo-religious mantra is necessary for that.

Making the recital of this statement mandatory is a contradiction of the statement.

Even kids understand that.

This will lead many kids--the ones who think instead of blindly follow--to question the rest of our society, political leadership, and self-proclaimed protectors of liberty and justice for all.

Mandatory recital was put into place during the Cold War--but some could bow out (some religions forbid pledging allegiance to anything other than God), and were ostracized--by one teacher I had. To this day I remember that teacher in terms of totalitarianism. How dare he stomp all over our founding principles! But then, I was to learn from a continuum of experiences that hypocrisy is quite common in my country.

I wonder if the minds of those who praise the pledge as necessary and good would be changed if they actually knew the history behind it?

Great summary The Pledge of Allegiance, A Short History

I'm curious if anyone who advocates that all should be required, not asked, to recite the pledge would change their opinion if you knew the pledge was written by a Socialist whose dream embodied (emphasis mine).

I really don't know. Enlighten me.

My two cents - I prefer the ask the class method and not the requirement method. I don't see a need to ban it altogether from classrooms.

Maybe it's just me, but if it is such a right and privilege to be able to pledge allegiance to a national symbol, why would anyone wish it required?

Isn't part of liberty, justice, rights and privileges the right to choose...? It seems that making something mandatory flies in the face of everything America and the flag is supposed to be representative of.

As far as the "what's wrong with Mommy?" goes: it seems like nothing but a desire for conformity and the suffocation of individuality. Positions like that do nothing but to subvert the individual and likewise undermine the very notion of liberty and justice. Unwavering allegiance to a symbol or organization won't improve or change anything. It will lead to stagnation. It is precisely the willingness and the right to question or oppose those in authority that leads to change and improvements.

I don't think children should be required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. If they want to, fine. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. We can promote the idea of liberty and justice in our children without designating symbols for them to cling to. I consider the actual teaching of such ideals to be much stronger than a few threads of cloth and a mindless morning chant.

Absolutely don't require it, and for public schools at least, I'd consider banning it!

The part I find unacceptable is the: "One nation... indivisible" line.

I don't care about the "under God" part. As I read the First Amendment, it only prohibits the central government from establishing a national religion and this ain't even close.

What does bug me is that the pledge was written by a socialist with the specific intent of undermining federalism and state sovereignty, which he saw as a obstacle to the implementation of socialism in America. Or so I hear, the story could be false, but even if it is, daily recitation of that formula still amounts to rote memorization of the theory that this is "one nation," not a federation of fifty semi-sovereign states. I don't buy the "indivisible" part either which also relates to state sovereignty. The Pledge as written undermines the principle of Federalism this nation was founded on.

So, whether intended as political indoctrination or not, it IS political indoctrination and political indoctrination into a truly un-American theory at that. That means reciting the Pledge is not patriotic at all, but actually unpatriotic!

P.S.: Very nice, Jaime! I didn't see your post before I did this one, else I would have given you credit and perhaps used some of that article.

I never recited the pledge of allegiance when I was young.
At one point, I dared to ask "Wha's God?"
I was then and still am a Buddhist, only at age 7 I had no familiarity with other religions.
...my question earned me a week of detention. My parents, who spoke no english, had no power to object.

I say, public school students should not be forced to pledge their allegiance to a sewn piece of hemp... You can love a nation without loving the patterned cloth that it hides behind... I dont love the United States. I can admit that, even in public, at the expense of respect. I did have faith in my new country, at one point. Then... I just learned too much.

Actually, it's usually made out of polyester or some other synthetic compound now to better fit the national character.

It was hemp when I was a kid.

The composition of the flag is irrelevant to this debate.



Let's not derail Victoria Silverwolf's thread.

the original pledge as written by Francis Scott Bellamy, a Christian socialist, reads:

he may have not even meant america. (though it is likely he did)

I do not think that any one should be required to stand and recite this "patriotic" drivel. and especially children that have no idea what they are even saying shouldn't be reciting it. when kids do not recite the pledge the are often criticized, called "un-patriotic" "anti/un-american" often are sent to the principle and given detention or in some cases suspended. (based on antecdotal evidence from raisethefist.com)

by requiring kids to recite this drivel, you take away there freedom to say no, and there is no freedom without the freedom to say NO!

I liked Izdaari's take on this. It points to the moronic state of mind overly zealous patriots can fall into, completely ignoring sources, intents, and original concepts. Not that overly zealous anything else doesn't do this, too.

Someone once did a comic thing about how kids really say the pledge, munging up all sorts of words. Such as:

I pej all eagles to the sky and to the repunsle for which it stands

This needs to be looked at again! What are these kids really saying? Is mind control really working, or are we missing the mark completely?

I want an investigation! I want action! I want a department of homeland thought management!

It most definately should not. The Pledge is nothing short of a mind control device. What's worse is that its foisted upon the young and ignorant. I said it as a child in elementary school and not a day goes by without me wishing I could go back and refuse to say it.

This is a very interesting stance. You think back on this every day of your life? That seems somewhat obsessive. Just what is it about the pledge that has caused this re-action? And how does it serve as 'mind control'? Is this about the 'God' reference or is it about allegiance to the country?

Passion51,

Well, this debate really is about whether manditory recital should be done, not so much the under God controversy.

Isn't rote memorization a form of mind control? I know at one time this was thought to be a form of education, but since then we have discovered that education really is about thinking, not memorizing.

Forget the Gettysberg Address? Look it up on the Net

I know, we can compromise. Make the Pledge mandatory, but let the kids use tape recorders to play it back. Then if anyone doesn't want to do it, just turn the sound down.

Oh, hey, just though of something else. Isn't sticking God's name into a nationalistic pledge using the name in vain? You know, does God care about nationalism? If not, then isn't it useless to invoke the name in a pledge, that is, a vain attempt to get divine attention? Or on another meaning, isn't it showing disrespect and irreverence?

Okay...so I was being facetious to make my feelings better felt. I don't think about it everyday, but I do regret having done it, but, of course, hindsight is 20/20. Its mind control because it implants the notion that tradition is important. It tells children that we recite the Pledge because its what we've always done and will continue to do. I couldn't care less if god is mentioned in it or not. To me, its about forcing people who don't know better to swear allegiance to the government.

Tradition is important, why would you find that objectionable?

I'm sorry, but I refuse to join ,or even accept, the attempts to make patriotism and pride in our country into something politically incorrect. Far too many of the challenges being made are nothing more than poorly masked attempts to undermine our nation and all that it stands for.

Feel free to refuse to say the Pledge, or sing the anthem or salute the flag. That is your right. But working to encourage others to join you is not a path that is acceptable to any true and loyal American.

It seems to me that America was meant to be a progressive venture, not some stagnant model of tradition and unquestioning loyalty. Yet that is precisely what the Pledge is.

Opposition to such blind loyalty isn't an attempt to make patriotism politically incorrect, but rather an attempt to ensure people don't pledge their allegience simply out of convenience and habit. It's an attempt to ensure people don't pledge allegiance to anything the government in power says, but instead pledge allegiance to the spirit of their country.

If people can only define their patriotism through blind allegiance to flags, songs and tradition, they'll find themselves ill equipped to face the challenges of political corruption and misconduct.

What makes this country great is not reciting a pledge or fighting to make sure that someone doesn't burn the nation's flag, but rather the fact that we are allowed to bristle at mandatory pledge recitals and that we defend people's right to burn the flag.

If you believe there is a reason not to recite the national anthem people are going to ask you why. It is American to answer that question.

I also used to salute the flag in school and my kids still do. IMO, it should be optional otherwise it uncomfortably resembles a form of indoctrination.

My main problem with it is the use of 'God' which is divisive as not everyone subscribes to the same religious beliefs in this country and some don't believe in any 'God' at all. This should have no bearing on how one feels about their country.

It would be a nice American tradition but to the kids it's meaningless because the teachers do not take the time to break it down and teach them what it means before they force them to recite it. I think teachers should be required to do so before they give the first pledge. If kids just mumble the words without knowing why it's a pretty hollow excersise.

In the end I think it should be voluntary and the children who do not wish to participate should simply be made to stand quietly and be respectful of those that do.

I don't think anyone, in any nation, under any circumstances, should be forced to say anything they don't want to.
That goes for the U.S.'s pledge of allegiance and national anthem as well.

I think we should restore the pre-1954 version. I think it should not even be considered in public schools until kids are of the age to study Civics (some time in junior high) and get a bit of background on the pledge itself and what it means. And then I think it should be optional.

There is nothing wrong with pledging allegiance to one's country so long as it is not mandatory and I see no problem with providing a forum to do so in our schools - so long as it is not coercive, even by dint of peer pressure, and so long as the kids know what they're doing. When I was in primary school, we not only pledged allegiance to the flag, we also recited the Lord's Prayer (and this was a public school). Both quickly became a meaningless string of words which ceremoniously started each day. To me, that does a serious disservice to both patriotism and prayer.

Why is tradition important? In the Middle East, it is tradition to allow the common citizenry to stone people to death. In Japan, it is tradition to publicly and privately subjugate women in every possible way. In Sudan, it is tradition to execute homosexuals. Throughout Africa and the Middle East, it is tradition to perform female circumcision on young girls with dirty razor blades. I suppose now you will argue to make a distinction between good traditions and bad traditions. But that is purely a judgement call. Who will judge what is good and what is bad. You? Me? Dubya? I suppose I made a judgement call myself by pointing out the traditions above as being bad traditions in my eyes, but good traditions in the eyes of those who carry them out. However, and I don't want to sound like a typical superior-to-foreigners-American here, I honestly don't see how the people of any civilized society would ever consider these traditions mentioned above to be good ones and good for society and the right thing to do and because its part of the culture and because its government sanctioned and because its always been done that way and because its.....oh...tradition.

The tradition argument is tricky. What constitutes tradition to one is not tradition to another. And the assumption that tradition is a value to be embraced is questionable.

It is especially questionable when tradition is enforced.

How did the national anthem get in here? Nobody forces anyone to play or sing it. Of course, most people can't sing it at all unless pub drunk. Which is where the tune comes from, but I drift off topic.

As far as having a hidden agenda, yeah, I do. Here it is:

O beautiful for spacious skies
For amber waves of grain
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!

America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

- Katharine Lee Bates, from atop Pikes Peak

Now there's a pledge. Or an ode, more appropriately. Make THAT mandatory! Well, at least ask people to recite or sing it now and again. It even has God in it for the religious right. Sing/say "her" instead of "him," and nobody will know the difference. Can even use "sisterhood" rather than "brotherhood," "siblinghood" even. Voila, politically correct. Plus it's an easy tune.

I might even suggest a pilgrimage to America's Mountain every five or so years. Get on top of it, breath the rarified air, and look. Feel. Think.

Memorial Day, 2003--remembering . . .

I think you pretty much answered the question by the examples you cited. Tradition is important, as well as instructive. Judgements are necessary and appropriate. Don't be asamed to make them, they are a significant piece of what makes us human.

Passion51,

Okay, I am not ashamed of the traditions I embrace and find important.

Therefore, I want you to recite or sing America the Beautiful each and every day, first thing in the morning.

Then, I want you to drive up Pikes Peak at least every five years. If too old or whatever to drive, then take the Cog Railway.

You must do this by decree of law. Like it or not.

Instructive? You can't be serious. You think its a good thing to instruct the young to swear loyalty to a government that takes away funding for their school? To a President that wages war to conquer another nation's resources? Or how about instructing the young in the best way to throw a rock at a person? Or instructing the young in the correct way to take a razor blade and forcibly slice off a 4 year old girl's clitoris? This is cool with you? This is a value you hold dear?

School vouchers would end this debate.

As would killing all conservatives, but both violate the principles of America.

Please avoid the one liners and try to add something constructive to this debate.

Traditions are important as well as instructive. One must also make judgements regarding the value of those traditions. There are countries that value traditions that we find abhorrent. Some that we find merely offensive. And some that we agree with.

I'm not sure how you take from that, or anything else I've said, that I believe it's a good thing to teach the inhumane things you've mentioned.

My stance on this issue changed shortly after 9/11. At one time I believed we should mandate a recital of the Pledge in schools as a way to reinforce a patriotic ideology. I don’t believe children should be brain washed into allegiance to the USA.

It could be argued that mandating our children to recite this pledge is equal to Arab children being required to memorize the Quran. It’s reeks of establishing a belief.

If we feel our children should recite something patriotic, why not have them voluntarily recite this…

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Whoo Haaa!

I'm with you, beladonna!

Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness.

Under God, of course

My favorite rendition of the pledge was in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon:

"I pledge allegiance to Queen Fragg, and her Mighty State of Hysteria..."


I was one of the sheep. The only time I remember it meaning a whole lot was when I was chosen to hold up the flag from the pole during the pledge. I just stood behind it while we recited the pledge. The rest of the time, "Bla bla bla bla..." The teachers also had to sign a loyalty oath. I don't know if they still have to do that or not. Do they?

Perhaps some view it as a magical incantation to make us all good little boys and girls and not be any trouble to anyone. Right! It won't make us good little Judeo-Christians either.

The Pledge of Allegiance is a dinosaur. But, I've been told, it's atheistic and unpatriotic not to want our kids saying it in school every day. And no politician wants those labels come election time, so the dinosaur stays.
Demagoguery rules.

Meanwhile, what faith I possess is not contingent upon reciting a pledge to my country's flag. It smacks of idolatry.

I like that idea, beladonna.

beladonna's idea makes sense.

Kids should definitely not have to say it. At my school, they were offering the pledge before school on Thursdays. One day my core teacher explained to us that we would start saying it in class, because not very many people were showing up. The illogic of it was infuriating to me, especially being not Christian and honestly not very patriotic either. I said "What, because people don't want to, you're going to force it?" Of course, some other kid was like, "What, you're not patriotic?" The teacher explained that most of the problem was with the "under God" phrase, and how patriotism had nothing to do with it. She explained nobody actually had to say it, but we were all going to stand up, and et cetera. I so wish I had interrupted her and said "Well actually, I have both religious AND political problems with the pledge."

Personally I think it's ridiculous.

Yes it should, I could be mistaken, but these schools are in America. The de-Americanization of schools is disturbing to me, we should be singing the National Anthem in schools, that is if students know it.

CP

Sorry for double posting but, why is it that so many people are so hell-bent on keeping patriotism out of school? I don't mean that we should open up schools that are propoganda centers, but why is it that schools always are afraid of patriotism. We live in one of the [if not the]best country in the world. Be happy for it. It's just the Pledge. What is it going to hurt, there is absolutely no down side to it. I was just watching a show on FoxNews in which grown men couldn't tell a reporter who wrote the Declaration of Independence. Maybe it's time for more patriotism and more America in school.

CP

That's where I stand on this one. I had to stand and recite the Pledge through elementary school. We all did it every day. It didn't mean anything and we never thought anything of it. It was just part of the daily routine.

There are so many better things to worry about as far as teaching about America in schools is concerned. The Pledge is what? 20 seconds out of the day? Not like it is some legally binding oath either. Yes, there are a lot of things about public school where the students are being forced to conform to some ridiculous things. The Pledge doesn't seem to me to be one of them.

Why should I prove allegience to this country by saying a pledge that I didn't even have a say in to a piece of fabric hanging from a stick? I have nothing against the country [ I live in the country ] Just that I don't think that shoving patriartical values down people's throats are really helpful. Honestly, they should let students learn their own views and then decide for themselves wither or not they should say it. That way, it's also sincerer than some monotonous mantra said every morning.

I think that both these quotes can support either side, b/c the basic thrust here is that it's kind of a harmless, empty ritual that doesn't advance the ball, either. I'm all for more Civics education for our children, we definitely need it. But I don't think "more America" should be ritual, symbol, and empty gesture. If they're going to have to recite something, it should be the Bill of Rights, and not so much that it loses all meaning. Maybe an amendment a day? Some might not even take 20 seconds.

Basically, I think both sides are overheated. When the "under God" thing went down, people spoke about patriotism and love of country, and a lot of 'em went green if you mentioned that voting, preferably as an informed citizen, meant more than just making your kids mouth words every morning.

Upon edit, I see Jaime already showed the link to it's history. As a refresher to other latecomers, it was a socialist minister who wrote the words, w/o the "under God" clause added by Eisenhower, and he felt forced to omit "equality" due to others opposition to equality for women and blacks. The link suggests liberal and conservative alternatives, the liberal being closest to the original intent:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all."

I think the fear from the right on this issue is based less on the Pledge itself and more on the trend of de-Americanization amongst Americans. That is to say that there appears to be a trend of less and less love of country amongst an ever-increasing number of people. Naturally, they are free to hold their beliefs; however, the fear is that, as more Americans view the U.S. as bad, there will be an increasing push to place less credence in our sovereignty. The thought is that if people don’t love their country, they will be more apt to put its fate in others hands like, for instance, the United Nations.

The belief that the United Nations should have higher authority over the actions of the U.S. than the U.S. itself is more likely to occur amongst those who don’t care about the U.S. This becomes dangerous when those same people view the U.N. as a benevolent organization interested in the betterment of everyone on the planet rather than a collection of individual nations each pursuing their own self-interest.

Is this fear founded? Could be. Is requiring kids to recite the Pledge a way to get folks to be more patriotic? Uhh… I don’t think so.

I, like most who attended public schools, recited the Pledge daily never once really thinking about what I was saying. Did it make me love my country? No. My love of country comes from what it is and strives to be.

I say, “Dump the Pledge,” if for no other reason than it is wrong to place kids in the crossfire of a partisan war.

M L Iserman

I think The Pleadge of Allegiance should be said in schools. I remember when I had to stand, and say the Pleadge every day, sometimes I was to tiered to stand but I usually did. I don't think there is a problem with saying it, you should not be forced to say it, but I don't understand why some americans don't like it.


"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."

I'm afraid I didn't take the time to read this whole thread, but here's my answer to the latest post:



The reason I don't like it is because I refuse to pledge my allegiance to a flag or to a country. I think such a pledge is unecessary and dangerous. I am not a "my country wrong or right" type. Leading children to make such a pledge emphasizes nationalism and collectivism, rather than the ideal of individual liberty upon which the nation was founded. I am not at all surprised to learn that the pledge was introduced by a socialist, as Jaime points out in an earlier post.

I agree with Capper7. All of the American kids should be, or I should say Must be saying the Pledge of Allegiance with full of patriotism in school. I suppose our children must understand what our country stands for and what is right when they are little children.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."

Must say it? Forced patriotism is hardly true patriotism. Just because a child is forced to say it doesn't mean that they truly pledge allegiance. Although, I suppose merely hearing the children say it out loud is enough to satisfy the neo-con nationalists as opposed to them actually meaning it.

So how would you accomplish this? Penalizing those that don't? Summer school for less than fully patriotic students? Mandatory civic lessons before they learn to long-divide or think critically?

America was founded by a group of Liberal (for the most part) thinkers who valued reason and independence. I imagine that any liberal philosopher from the 18th century would be apalled at the suggestion that people be forced to accept a belief system before they can understand its meanings and implications.

More to the point, how does reciting the pledge help a child UNDERSTAND anything. If anything it stifles insight into American history by superimposing an ideological jingle over historical study and critical appraisal of modern events.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands

wasn't the "Pledge of Alliance" written shortly after WW2?

national pride and loyalty to the very basic ideals of one's country being instilled is something I don't see a problem with at all. We live here, make money here, vote, enjoy freedoms and benefits this particular country has to offer otherwise we would no doubt choose to live elsewhere.

One nation, under God, indivisible.

This country was not founded on the principal of an absence of "God." God is subjective. The US is not GodLESS. It may seem to be headed into the "Godless" direction, which is unfortunate... "Under God." In any religion isn't it "God" (whatever you'd like to think God as being) who/which we would like to have watch over our country?

The US went through a 4 year civil war where the very fabric of this country was being ripped to shreds. a terrible, unsettling time for sure. It survived. The country healed itself and became stronger through hope, understanding and national cooperation. that the US stay forever UNdivided and intact is something that benefits the whole as opposed to the few. Striving to bridge differences within this country will always be the ideal that binds us rather than tear us apart.

With liberty and justice for all

Do we not in this country want this for all? Whether "liberty" and "justice for all" been perfected is not the point. It is the ideal, that when we SEE liberty and justice falling short, being trampled...kicked to the curb, that we as a people scream a collective scream in attempts to get back on the Liberty and Justice tract. THIS, is what keeps us UNdivided. The promise of Liberty and Justice. We demand it. It is our right and needs to be kept healthy BY us.

The flag is just a piece of cloth. "America" means is so much more. When we are divided on the promises that this country offers, when we use our disappointment as a reason to kick this this country and its people...when loyalty to the promises that this country was fought for are replaced for others, who do we hurt? Houses, families divided...fall. What do we really want?

In the younger grades it should be explained in the easiest terms possible what it means to be loyal to your home. The upper grades should be student-led, optional and GOD should stay put.

imo.