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America's Debate > Archive > Policy Debate Archive > [A] Domestic Policy
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Sleeper
http://www.cei.org/gencon/027,02350.cfm


After a little wading through the quagmire that is the internet I have finally found the information to back the common sense ideal that larger/heavier vehicles(SUVs) are safer than small/lighter vehicles.

The above link gives a very detailed report(including a powerpoint presentation)

This goes along with my stance that SUVs are safer than cars.

Instead of merging statistics and vehicle registration, this is actual scientific data showing the direct impact of the mass of a given vehicle in a collision.

My question to debate is: Is it worth having the CAFE standards if it involves more traffic fatalities.

Sleeper
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Platypus
I hope you didn't spend too much time "researching" that, because it doesn't prove anything like what you say. In fact, I'm not sure it proves anything at all. Leonard Evans is no more a primary source than Scott Bradsher, and does a worse job of identifying the primary sources he uses. More importantly, he doesn't even address the overall issue of SUV vs. passenger car safety except in terms of mass as it affects the driver. There seems to be no mention at all of the following factors:
  • The effect of that same mass on the driver or passengers in the other vehicle.
  • The effect that other design factors, such as body rigidity or structural rails riding high off the ground, have on damage to people in either vehicle, or to the vehicles themselves.
  • Single-vehicle accidents.
Your so-called evidence is unconvincing at best.
QUOTE
My question to debate is: Is it worth having the CAFE standards if it involves more traffic fatalities.


Neat trick, presenting an argument on one point and then claiming your question was something else. I smell a trap.

To answer your question: no, it wouldn't be worth it, but you have presented a false dichotomy. Nothing you have written shows that a choice between CAFE and driver safety is necessary.
Sleeper
QUOTE(Platypus @ Apr 4 2003, 08:00 PM)
Where's your evidence that SUVs are as safe as passenger cars? I won't respond further and will consider you to have forfeited the point until you at least try to make such a case using real numbers that the rest of us can verify

Did you not say this?

Also Dr. Evans(I noticed you left the Dr. part off) has more credibility than Mr Bradsher.

I was expecting you to shrug off the evidence I provided.

If you were to look deeper into CEI.org's site you would see study upon study on this very subject.
Izdaari
QUOTE(Platypus @ Apr 4 2003, 12:00 PM)


  • The effect of that same mass on the driver or passengers in the other vehicle.



The paper does deal with that one.

QUOTE
Here we see results from five different data sets. Look what happens when two cars of the same mass crash into each other. What we see is that if two very light cars crash into each other, the risk to each driver is approximately twice what it is when two heavy cars crash into each other. It is plotted against weight, which is not necessarily identical to mass but which, practically speaking, is usually representative of it. But what really causes this difference in risk is not the fact that the cars are heavier, but that heavy cars are also larger. This is intrinsic. A big car is heavier, and heavy cars are bigger. The extra size provides additional crush material in front of the driver, and additional occupant space. This  provides more time for the driver to come to rest, and that reduces risk.

So if a completely homogeneous fleet of very heavy cars replaced by a completely homogeneous fleet of very light cars, this would roughly double the number of driver injuries and deaths. There is a very fine safety researcher in Europe who addressed question theoretically by considering the way in which the components of vehicles crush in a crash. He came up with this relationship by plugging in the different size components that go into the different-sized vehicles.

So you see there’s a great coherence here. Five data sets, one theoretical relationship – all say that big, heavier cars crashing into big, heavier cars are safer than small, lighter, more fuel-efficient cars crashing into other small, light, fuel-efficient cars.

We are now in a position to pull apart this 14.5 percent number when I, with my extra passenger, crash into you.  We both have identical cars, but I have my passenger and you don’t. My risk is down by 7.5 percent. Your risk goes up by 8.1 percent. And so in this case there is a net social loss in that crash.  The extra passenger adds to my protection but decreases yours.  On balance, social risk has gone up a little bit.

But that is a pure mass effect; that is, the effect of just adding mass to one of the cars. Suppose that instead of carrying a passenger, I swapped my present car for another car that is heavier by that passenger’s weight.  Suppose too that my new car is also larger by the amount that you’d expect of a car that is 165 pounds heavier.  When this happens, the relationship changes. Now my risk is lower by 11.5 percent and your risk is higher by 6.9 percent.  Overall, society doesn’t lose; it gains. The reason that your risk is doesn’t increase as much as it did before is that you’re now crashing into a slightly larger vehicle with slightly more crushable structure. So you also do better hitting a slightly larger car of the same mass than a smaller one of the same mass. On balance, there is a societal gain.


I don't know or particularly care if this is conclusive scientific proof, but its good enough to make me glad I drive a Ford Crown Victoria instead of a Honda Civic.
Platypus
QUOTE(Izdaari @ Apr 4 2003, 04:25 PM)
QUOTE(Platypus @ Apr 4 2003, 12:00 PM)


  • The effect of that same mass on the driver or passengers in the other vehicle.



The paper does deal with that one.


It seems to deal with part of that one, where two vehicles are roughly equal in both weight and structure, but not with the very important case of a collision between a three-ton SUV and a one-ton passenger car. Your excerpt also contains another interesting piece of information:

QUOTE
Suppose that instead of carrying a passenger, I swapped my present car for another car that is heavier by that passenger’s weight.  Suppose too that my new car is also larger by the amount that you’d expect of a car that is 165 pounds heavier.  When this happens, the relationship changes. Now my risk is lower by 11.5 percent and your risk is higher by 6.9 percent.  Overall, society doesn’t lose; it gains. The reason that your risk is doesn’t increase as much as it did before is that you’re now crashing into a slightly larger vehicle with slightly more crushable structure.


Here, the author is assuming a collision between cars. SUVs do not have more "crushable structure"; in fact they have less, and they're stiffer in general, and they have other design/construction features that make them much more destructive in a crash. The above tells us nothing about SUV crashes.

QUOTE
I don't know or particularly care if this is conclusive scientific proof, but its good enough to make me glad I drive a Ford Crown Victoria instead of a Honda Civic.


Does it make you glad that there are more two- to four-ton SUVs on the road than Civics and Corollas?
Izdaari
QUOTE(Platypus @ Apr 4 2003, 01:45 PM)
Does it make you glad that there are more two- to four-ton SUVs on the road than Civics and Corollas?

Nope, but then I'm no SUV fan.

SUVs may be good on crash safety for the occupants, but even if they are, they're very poor on evasive maneuverability and stopping distances. I wouldn't feel particularly safe in one. Unlike my Crown Vic ex-police car, which is very agile for a big car, and does inspire confidence in my ability to avoid accidents, not just survive them. The best way to survive an accident is not to have one, eh? But then I have years of experience as a professional driver and know what to do in most any situation.
Hugo
Shaq and Pee Wee Herman, both running at full speed collide...I see Shaq getting up first. In fact I doubt if Shaq even hits the floor.
Momof3
I think it comes down to what you want. You want a SUV and spend big bucks and you have the money so be it. You like a Car better? Amen. I think this thread has come down to I have a bigger car/truck, house I am better. Get over it! Just because someone may have a bigger car/truck or house and more expensive so what? What will it be next? My dad can beat up your dad? tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif
Minute Man
QUOTE(hugo @ Apr 5 2003, 02:12 AM)
Shaq and Pee Wee Herman, both running at full speed collide...I see Shaq getting up first. In fact I doubt if Shaq even hits the floor.

How cute...why are these two runnig toward each other? Bad analogy.

How about the driver of the SUV can see the other car and avoid the collison based on prepardness while the smaller car has greater manurerability and agility and can avoid it?
Izdaari
QUOTE(Minute Man @ Apr 5 2003, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE(hugo @ Apr 5 2003, 02:12 AM)
Shaq and Pee Wee Herman, both running at full speed collide...I see Shaq getting up first. In fact I doubt if Shaq even hits the floor.

How cute...why are these two runnig toward each other? Bad analogy.

How about the driver of the SUV can see the other car and avoid the collison based on prepardness while the smaller car has greater manurerability and agility and can avoid it?

How about the driver of the SUV sees the situation in time to slam on the brakes.... and rear ends another vehicle anyway because his clumsy machine has far inferior stopping distances?

How about the driver of the SUV takes evasive action, which would have been successful in a sedan, but because his vehicle has a high center of gravity, rolls over instead and kills all the occupants?

Drive the things if you want, but I wouldn't feel safe in most of them.
Google
Hugo
F=1/2MV2
AuthorMusician
Are heavy vehicles safer than lighter ones?

Well, I drive a Saturn and a Jeep Cherokee. Which one do I feel safer in?

Answer: neither. Both are dangerous as all get out. These things can maim or kill you!

To forget that while driving is hazardous to your health and everybody around you.

Judging from highway injury/death statistics, a lot of people forget. This definately puts a crimp on both your style and your freedom of choice.
Abs like Jesus
I imagine I'll regret even attempting to get involved in a debate about SUVs, but here goes... blush.gif

I had not a clue what CAFE was. I did a search and THIS is what I came up with...
QUOTE
Issue Description
Congress set out to improve fuel efficiencies of U.S. automobiles and to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign energy sources after the Arab oil embargo of 1973-1974 contributed to a surge in oil prices. The Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) program was initiated in 1975 by the Energy Policy and Conservation Act (EPCA).


Definitions
Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) Standards - A program initiated by EPCA, sets standards for vehicle fuel efficiency measured by miles traveled per gallon of burned fuel. The current CAFE standards require passenger automobiles to travel at least 27.5 miles per gallon (mpg) of fuel burned and 20.7 mpg for light-duty trucks (classification includes sport utility vehicles (SUVs)). The passenger car standard of 27.5 mpg has been the standard since 1990. The light trucks standard of 20.7 mpg has been the standard since 1996. The standards were enacted in an effort to reduce U.S. energy consumption and dependence on foreign oil. Supporters of the program also hoped it would improve air quality.

Now, as best I can tell, the way in which the article posted by Sleeper relates CAFE to SUVs and whether or not it kills is best summed up by this excerpt...
QUOTE
CAFE unquestionably leads to lighter vehicles, because fuel is consumed in ways that are intimately related to mass. The energy required to accelerate a body from rest to 30 mph is directly proportional to the mass of the body. So the heavier the vehicle, the more fuel you must use, other things being equal.

So the bigger vehicles are better because...
QUOTE
Look what happens when two cars of the same mass crash into each other. What we see is that if two very light cars crash into each other, the risk to each driver is approximately twice what it is when two heavy cars crash into each other. It is plotted against weight, which is not necessarily identical to mass but which, practically speaking, is usually representative of it. But what really causes this difference in risk is not the fact that the cars are heavier, but that heavy cars are also larger. This is intrinsic. A big car is heavier, and heavy cars are bigger. The extra size provides additional crush material in front of the driver, and additional occupant space. This  provides more time for the driver to come to rest, and that reduces risk.

This seems to later rationalize the conclusion...
QUOTE
So when I purchase this larger car, society is on average better off.  Now there are many complicated questions about equity, but those issues are in a different arena. But in terms of just the total number of lives, when I purchase a larger car, there is a reduction of risk.  I’m safer, and so is society overall.

The problem I have here is that society is only better off if everybody in society has a mammoth SUV proportional to the mammoth SUV that is expected to slam into it. As Dr. Leonard pointed out, the risk of injury or death increases for the driver of the smaller vehicle and only decreases for the driver of the larger one.

Ah... but, "But what really causes this difference in risk is not the fact that the cars are heavier, but that heavy cars are also larger. This is intrinsic. A big car is heavier, and heavy cars are bigger. The extra size provides additional crush material in front of the driver, and additional occupant space. This provides more time for the driver to come to rest, and that reduces risk." So you're only safer provided you have more "crush material" in front of you. So a Ford Excursion colliding with a Jeep Cherokee isn't going to be much safer than a Lincoln Towncar colliding with a Geo Metro... at least that's what I'm taking from this argument centered around "crush material." On top of this, we are also sacrificing environmental concerns for what seems to me to be only the illusion of safety.

Essentially, I don't buy it. The purchase of an SUV isn't going to benefit soceity as the article suggests, but rather the limited society of fellow SUV owners. To everyone else it is a dramatic risk increase. And even then the risk factor between other SUVs is dependant on the amount of "crush material," all the while doing nothing to aid the environment or "reduce U.S. dependance on foreign energy sources."

From my perspective, it seems it's the opposition to CAFE that is undermining its efforts and leading to increased injury and fatality risks -- not to mention increasing further energy dependance and contributing nothing to improving air quality.

[Edited -- Below]
I was curious about how biased the Competitive Enterprise Institute might be pertaining to matters of energy and the like... one thing I found, and of which I'm sure I could find more of based on some of the other material on their site...
Who is the Global Climate Coaltion?
QUOTE
The Global Climate Coalition (GCC), a trade association, has mutated over the years to reflect the changing reality of global warming issues. GCC started full-force in 1989 as a corporate lobbying and public relations front for business interests engaged in a no-holds-barred campaign to convince America that global warming doesn’t exist. GCC hired a handful of scientists who are of the opinion global warming is not a threat, and amplified their voices across the op-ed pages of the U.S.

After losing most prominent corporate members in recent years as well as its multi-million dollar P.R. campaign to wish away global warming, GCC has softened its message. The coalition now focuses its efforts on opposition to the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty, "sound science", and on promoting the idea of (unspecified) "pragmatic and viable solutions" to global warming.
.....
Though GCC has toned down its rhetoric regarding the non- threat of global warming, the links on the web page are almost entirely to other industry-funded anti-Kyoto sites (Western Fuels’ Association’s Greening Earth Society, The Science and Environmental Policy Project, George C. Marshall Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, junkscience.com, etc.). GCC has a disclaimer stating they do not endorse the content of the other sites, but the "information about climate change" proffered is far from balanced.
gandalfh
From the article:
QUOTE
The reason that your risk is doesn’t increase as much as it did before is that you’re now crashing into a slightly larger vehicle with slightly more crushable structure. So you also do better hitting a slightly larger car of the same mass than a smaller one of the same mass. On balance, there is a societal gain.

Consider Car Type A colliding with Car Type B. Car A has 5 feet of crush material. Car B has 10 feet of crush material.

So now when Car A Type A collides with another Car of Type A there is only 10 feet of crush material. Whereas with Car Type B colliding with another Car Type B there is 20 feet of crush material and with Car Type B crashing with Car Type A there is 15 feet of crush material.

Lets consider what crush material really is does for us. Crush material keeps us from stopping instantly, it lets the change from speeding along to stopping be gradual. A collision between two cars with and without crush material is like the difference between a glorious belly flop into a full swimming pool and onto a concrete floor.

I would have never considered that larger vehicles colliding with smaller cars would be safer, overall, than smaller cars colliding with smaller cars. But when you consider the added crush space, it makes sense. Add to that the fact that larger cars do MUCH better in single vehicle collisions than smaller cars and I'm sold on the safety aspect. Unfortunately due to other factors, I currently drive a Neon and an MG. I would be a lot more comfortable in a larger vehicle, my cars before the MG and the Neon were a string of 1975ish gas guzzler caddillacs.

The article doesn't address SUVs specifically, but being as an SUV is a larger vehicle, it is certainly a better choice, from a safety viewpoint, than a smaller, more fuel efficient car.

P.S. It is K=1/2MV^2, kinetic energy. F=Ma, force tongue.gif
Platypus
QUOTE(gandalfh @ Apr 6 2003, 11:27 PM)
I would have never considered that larger vehicles colliding with smaller cars would be safer, overall, than smaller cars colliding with smaller cars.  But when you consider the added crush space, it makes sense.


Actually the bigger car probably doesn't have any more "crush space" than the smaller one. The passenger compartment might be much larger, but crumple zones are held to a uniform standard across all passenger cars. They are not required at all on pickups and SUVs, which also have a shape and weight distribution that causes them to ride right over the crumple zones on any passenger cars they hit.

This whole "crush space" thing is a non-issue with regard to larger passenger cars. Applying it to pickups and SUVs is outright deceptive.


QUOTE
The article doesn't address SUVs specifically, but being as an SUV is a larger vehicle, it is certainly a better choice, from a safety viewpoint, than a smaller, more fuel efficient car.


Actual accident statistics - as opposed to facile analyses based on a high-school understanding of physics without considering things like rigidity or weight distribution - point toward an opposite conclusion.
AuthorMusician
Yeah, and Volvos are designed so that the engine itself becomes an energy-absorbing item: It slips underneath the passenger compartment in a head-on collision rather than ending up in your lap.

The Saturn is built with a passenger cage. This is supposed to save your butt in rollovers.

The Jeep has no such safety features. It is just a bunch of metal that can maim and kill passengers in collisions. It is designed to take people into narrow, steep, rutted forest roads.

Big is not necessarily better. Design has a lot to do with relative "safety" illusions.

Unsafe at any speed. Remember this, and your chances of survival soar.
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