Full Version: Return to Afghanistan
In preparation for post-war Iraq, I thought it might do some good to look back at Afghanistan -- our batting practice for Iraq...
Was the U.S. complicit in a massacre?
More reports of massacre
UN evidence of Taliban massacre
Afghanistan massacre?
The numbers seem to vary on how many people may have been killed or deposited into mass graves, but the fact that there is a UN report citing at least 960 deaths in the face of Pentagon denial is a bit troubling to me. The UN seems to find the story, and whatever evidence they have, to be convincing enough to warrant an inquiry. My question to you is: should the American media be paying more attention to these allegations that the UN plans to investigage seems to lend credence to?
Reports like THIS certainly don't help.
MOVING ON...
Taliban reviving, Afghan gov't faltering
As the article mentions, Afghanistan was promised the same things we are now promising Iraq. Should Americans, or any members of the international community, be skeptical of post-war Iraq considering the failing model in Afghanistan? And let's not forget the administration forgot Afghanistan in the latest budget. Luckily, Congress noticed the oversight and began work to find money for humanitarian aid and reconstruction. Didn't the administration say we were in for the long haul?
Another problem for Afghanistan... on top of everything else, Afghanistan is once again the leading producer of heroin in the world. The article points out that the Pentagon and State Department disagree over whether or not the drug pushers should be included in the war on terror in Afghanistan. Confusing? Not when you consider the previously cited CBS report stating:
Hmmm... and the warlords are responsible for the heroin production. Seems the Pentagon is in a tight position.
Not all the news is bad, though! American oil company, UNOCAL, is getting their pipeline!
$3.2 Billion Gas Pipeline Project Signed
I know that's a lot of info to take in. And I've already asked a couple questions to be addressed regarding this thread. Now, just to wrap it all up after the included information:
Has the U.S. and allies involved in Afghanistan failed in their promise? OR, in light of the lack of support for Afghanistan forces (financially) and open support of Afghani warlords (responsible for thieving and heroin production), are the U.S. and allies failing Afghanistan?
And looking ahead to Iraq, does this bode well for post-war Iraq? OR is any comparison even warranted?
Was the U.S. complicit in a massacre?
More reports of massacre
UN evidence of Taliban massacre
Afghanistan massacre?
QUOTE
The UN has gathered enough evidence to begin a criminal investigation into the allegation that almost 1,000 captured Taliban are buried in mass graves in Afghanistan, it was revealed last night.
...
The Newsweek report cites the discovery of bodies with little clothing and no obvious trauma as consistent with the claim that they had died of suffocation in the containers. A witness quoted in the memo put the number at 960.
...
The Newsweek report cites the discovery of bodies with little clothing and no obvious trauma as consistent with the claim that they had died of suffocation in the containers. A witness quoted in the memo put the number at 960.
QUOTE
the Northern Alliance soldier... says U.S. troops masterminded the cover-up: "The Americans told the Sheberghan people to get rid of them [the bodies] before satellite pictures could be taken."
Ten minutes down the road from Sheberghan is the windswept scrub of Dasht-i-Leili. According to the Boston-based group Physicians for Human Rights, the 3,000 murdered Taliban POWs were brought to Dasht-i-Leili for mass burial. One witness tells The Guardian that a Special Forces vehicle was parked at the scene as bulldozers buried the dead. Despite a sloppy attempt to remove evidence after the fact, Doran's camera sweeps over clothing, bits of skull, matted hair, jaws, femurs, ribs jutting out of the sand. Bullet casings littering the site offer grim testimony that some Talibs were still alive before being dumped in the desert.
...
In recent months, Doran says, two witnesses who appear in his film have been brought to Sherberghan prison and executed by men loyal to Deputy Defense Minister Dostum. The Pentagon refuses to investigate these charges.
Ten minutes down the road from Sheberghan is the windswept scrub of Dasht-i-Leili. According to the Boston-based group Physicians for Human Rights, the 3,000 murdered Taliban POWs were brought to Dasht-i-Leili for mass burial. One witness tells The Guardian that a Special Forces vehicle was parked at the scene as bulldozers buried the dead. Despite a sloppy attempt to remove evidence after the fact, Doran's camera sweeps over clothing, bits of skull, matted hair, jaws, femurs, ribs jutting out of the sand. Bullet casings littering the site offer grim testimony that some Talibs were still alive before being dumped in the desert.
...
In recent months, Doran says, two witnesses who appear in his film have been brought to Sherberghan prison and executed by men loyal to Deputy Defense Minister Dostum. The Pentagon refuses to investigate these charges.
The numbers seem to vary on how many people may have been killed or deposited into mass graves, but the fact that there is a UN report citing at least 960 deaths in the face of Pentagon denial is a bit troubling to me. The UN seems to find the story, and whatever evidence they have, to be convincing enough to warrant an inquiry. My question to you is: should the American media be paying more attention to these allegations that the UN plans to investigage seems to lend credence to?
Reports like THIS certainly don't help.
MOVING ON...
Taliban reviving, Afghan gov't faltering
QUOTE
Afghan authorities say Taliban remnants are reorganizing in an effort to destabilize the fledgling government of President Hamid Karzai.
...
There is little to stop them. The soldiers and police who were supposed to be the bedrock of a stable postwar Afghanistan have gone unpaid for months and are drifting away.
...
At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago.
Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism.
...
Abdul Salam is a military commander for the government. Last month he was stopped at a Taliban checkpoint in the Shah Wali Kot district of Kandahar and became a witness to the killing of Munguia, a 39-year-old water engineer from El Salvador.
...
Khan Mohammed, commander of Kandahar's 2nd Corps, says his soldiers haven't been paid in seven months, and his fighting force has dwindled. The Kandahar police chief, Mohammed Akram, says his police haven't been paid in months and hundreds have just gone home.
"There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police," said Mohammed. "The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not."
...
There is little to stop them. The soldiers and police who were supposed to be the bedrock of a stable postwar Afghanistan have gone unpaid for months and are drifting away.
...
At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago.
Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism.
...
Abdul Salam is a military commander for the government. Last month he was stopped at a Taliban checkpoint in the Shah Wali Kot district of Kandahar and became a witness to the killing of Munguia, a 39-year-old water engineer from El Salvador.
...
Khan Mohammed, commander of Kandahar's 2nd Corps, says his soldiers haven't been paid in seven months, and his fighting force has dwindled. The Kandahar police chief, Mohammed Akram, says his police haven't been paid in months and hundreds have just gone home.
"There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police," said Mohammed. "The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not."
As the article mentions, Afghanistan was promised the same things we are now promising Iraq. Should Americans, or any members of the international community, be skeptical of post-war Iraq considering the failing model in Afghanistan? And let's not forget the administration forgot Afghanistan in the latest budget. Luckily, Congress noticed the oversight and began work to find money for humanitarian aid and reconstruction. Didn't the administration say we were in for the long haul?
Another problem for Afghanistan... on top of everything else, Afghanistan is once again the leading producer of heroin in the world. The article points out that the Pentagon and State Department disagree over whether or not the drug pushers should be included in the war on terror in Afghanistan. Confusing? Not when you consider the previously cited CBS report stating:
QUOTE
Today most Afghans say their National Army seems a distant dream while the U.S.-led coalition continues to feed and finance warlords for their help in hunting for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters.
Hmmm... and the warlords are responsible for the heroin production. Seems the Pentagon is in a tight position.
Not all the news is bad, though! American oil company, UNOCAL, is getting their pipeline!
$3.2 Billion Gas Pipeline Project Signed
I know that's a lot of info to take in. And I've already asked a couple questions to be addressed regarding this thread. Now, just to wrap it all up after the included information:
Has the U.S. and allies involved in Afghanistan failed in their promise? OR, in light of the lack of support for Afghanistan forces (financially) and open support of Afghani warlords (responsible for thieving and heroin production), are the U.S. and allies failing Afghanistan?
And looking ahead to Iraq, does this bode well for post-war Iraq? OR is any comparison even warranted?
Flowers don't bloom immediately after you bull-doze over a cess pool.
Give it some time.
Give it some time.
No opinion on the massacre allegations...? 
And how can the "flowers bloom" when the administration fails to even remember Afghanistan in their budget plans?
Why is it we're lending more support to the criminal warlords of Afghanistan than to the government? The warlords are, afterall, a leading cause of the disturbances the government is being asked to deal with and the heroin problem affecting the world (America included).
This goes beyond expecting flowers to bloom out of a destroyed cess pool.
And how can the "flowers bloom" when the administration fails to even remember Afghanistan in their budget plans?
Why is it we're lending more support to the criminal warlords of Afghanistan than to the government? The warlords are, afterall, a leading cause of the disturbances the government is being asked to deal with and the heroin problem affecting the world (America included).
This goes beyond expecting flowers to bloom out of a destroyed cess pool.
I said : "Give it time".
Afghanistan was one of the most backward nations on the planet under the Taliban. Things cannot change overnight. I would say (and have said) that things are better now than they were 2 or 3 years ago.
Afghanistan was one of the most backward nations on the planet under the Taliban. Things cannot change overnight. I would say (and have said) that things are better now than they were 2 or 3 years ago.
The country has been extensively bombed, thousands of civilians are dead and the one government that did enforce law and order (however questionable its tactics) has been removed with little power being possessed by the current one.
The heroin production in Afghanistan is something like 20x what it was prior to the war. Under the Taliban, the heroin was cut back about 95%. Now, beyond the increased heroin production, the Pentagon is funding and feeding the warlords responsible. These are the same warlords responsible for a great deal of the thievery and lawlessness throughout Afghanistan.
You say: "Give it time."
As "one of the most backward nations" trying to rebound, with drugs and crime raging, are we to expect Afghanistan to overcome all by itself? The government only has any control over about 20% of the country, and the forces are dwindling as hundreds go home. Meanwhile, after the dust has cleared and the speeches have been forgotten, the Bush administration forgot to even include Afghanistan in the budget!
Congress was observant enough to catch the oversight and allocate some funds, but how much good will they do when the Pentagon is still funding the lawlessness and drug production of the warlords throughout the majority of the country...?
With the current state of affairs, time is only going to lead Afghanistan into further disarray, not see it progress. The only thing that seems to be improving in Afghanistan is the UNOCAL oil pipeline... the rest of the country is being thrown further into disarray.
[EDIT: Drug Problem in detail]
Afghanistan: Record Level Drug Production
The heroin production in Afghanistan is something like 20x what it was prior to the war. Under the Taliban, the heroin was cut back about 95%. Now, beyond the increased heroin production, the Pentagon is funding and feeding the warlords responsible. These are the same warlords responsible for a great deal of the thievery and lawlessness throughout Afghanistan.
You say: "Give it time."
As "one of the most backward nations" trying to rebound, with drugs and crime raging, are we to expect Afghanistan to overcome all by itself? The government only has any control over about 20% of the country, and the forces are dwindling as hundreds go home. Meanwhile, after the dust has cleared and the speeches have been forgotten, the Bush administration forgot to even include Afghanistan in the budget!
Congress was observant enough to catch the oversight and allocate some funds, but how much good will they do when the Pentagon is still funding the lawlessness and drug production of the warlords throughout the majority of the country...?
With the current state of affairs, time is only going to lead Afghanistan into further disarray, not see it progress. The only thing that seems to be improving in Afghanistan is the UNOCAL oil pipeline... the rest of the country is being thrown further into disarray.
[EDIT: Drug Problem in detail]
Afghanistan: Record Level Drug Production
QUOTE
Opium cultivation has reached record levels in Afghanistan, World Bank president James Wolfensohn warned yesterday.
...
Opium was banned by the Taliban in 1999. A mere 1,685 hectares were cultivated the following year, according to the US State Department. However, last year a total of 30,750 hectares were harvested, helping restore Afghanistan to its role as the world's number one exporter of heroin precursors. Three quarters of all European heroin comes from Afghanistan, added Wolfensohn.
...
Wolfensohn will attempt to raise a further $600 million at a meeting of Western donors in Brussels tomorrow. The Afghan government is concerned that existing aid money is bypassing its budget entirely, imperilling the nation-building process.
...
Opium was banned by the Taliban in 1999. A mere 1,685 hectares were cultivated the following year, according to the US State Department. However, last year a total of 30,750 hectares were harvested, helping restore Afghanistan to its role as the world's number one exporter of heroin precursors. Three quarters of all European heroin comes from Afghanistan, added Wolfensohn.
...
Wolfensohn will attempt to raise a further $600 million at a meeting of Western donors in Brussels tomorrow. The Afghan government is concerned that existing aid money is bypassing its budget entirely, imperilling the nation-building process.
If they were fighting for the Taliban they desevered to be thrown in mass graves by the Northern Alliance or any for that matter. 
Should we have let the evil Taliban which supports terrorists that attack our people and forces brutal Islamic law on its people rule Afganistan?
Should we have let the evil Taliban which supports terrorists that attack our people and forces brutal Islamic law on its people rule Afganistan?
Dunno about the mass graves. Not sure what to believe.
I do know that, America wasn't the only military taking prisoners. The NA were as well.
*********
Interesting to me how you are complaining to the gov't about how we forgot Afg in the budget. hmmmmm, that doesn't seem consistant with (what i thought were) your views. Are you not in favor of leaving and pulling out of most places around the world? Don't you often complain about our interference in other's affairs? Haven't we already done enough damage in Afg, and should just let it be?
Oh wait, so then you must be saying that you want to stay in afg, restore order, fund and perform the reconstruction, etc etc.
No disrespect intended. I'm just confused, and am pretty shocked to hear you say that. thats all
Respectfully
--cheers
BTW: Aren't these issues (mass graves, lawlessness) two seperate threads?
I do know that, America wasn't the only military taking prisoners. The NA were as well.
*********
Interesting to me how you are complaining to the gov't about how we forgot Afg in the budget. hmmmmm, that doesn't seem consistant with (what i thought were) your views. Are you not in favor of leaving and pulling out of most places around the world? Don't you often complain about our interference in other's affairs? Haven't we already done enough damage in Afg, and should just let it be?
Oh wait, so then you must be saying that you want to stay in afg, restore order, fund and perform the reconstruction, etc etc.
No disrespect intended. I'm just confused, and am pretty shocked to hear you say that. thats all
Respectfully
--cheers
BTW: Aren't these issues (mass graves, lawlessness) two seperate threads?
QUOTE
Don't you often complain about our interference in other's affairs? Haven't we already done enough damage in Afg, and should just let it be?
Oh wait, so then you must be saying that you want to stay in afg, restore order, fund and perform the reconstruction, etc etc
Oh wait, so then you must be saying that you want to stay in afg, restore order, fund and perform the reconstruction, etc etc
I'm not suggesting we send military forces into Afghanistan all over again. My views have been not to send our military trapsing all over the globe enforcing American hegemony. I haven't taken the stance of not sending humanitarian aid (whether in the form of food or finance), which is precisely what I was addressing when I mentioned the omission of Afghanistan in the last budget. What I'm suggesting is that since the administration currently in office promised to handle Afghanistan for the long haul they should make good on their promise. I'm looking for consistency out of the administration.
America went to war in Afghanistan to oust Al-Qaida forces and to remove the Taliban from power. Now the administration is paying the warlords more so than the interim gov't that they set up and claim to support. On top of this, the Taliban is also regrouping.
QUOTE
Aren't these issues (mass graves, lawlessness) two seperate threads?
The thread is "What were and what are we doing in Afghanistan?" If the massacres and mass graves is substantiated, then it may go hand in hand with the claims of gross civilian casualties in Iraq that our government has denounced as merely propaganda. I've dealt with that particular issue at more length, though, in the "Killing Civilians" thread on AD.
QUOTE(Ranciduncle @ Apr 10 2003 @ 06:02 PM)
If they were fighting for the Taliban they desevered to be thrown in mass graves by the Northern Alliance or any for that matter. Should we have let the evil Taliban which supports terrorists that attack our people and forces brutal Islamic law on its people rule Afganistan?
Should we have let the evil Taliban which supports terrorists that attack our people and forces brutal Islamic law on its people rule Afganistan?Did you even read the articles? It wasn't simply an issue of disposing of dead bodies... they're talking about slaughters of unarmed people and inhumane treatment to the degree that people died horrible deaths.
QUOTE
Dostum's soldiers, furious about the Qala-i-Jhangi uprising and a Taliban ambush during the siege of Kunduz, were out for vengeance. They stopped and commandeered private container trucks to transport the other 3,000 prisoners. "It was awful," Irfan Azgar Ali, a survivor of the trip, told England's Guardian newspaper. "They crammed us into sealed shipping containers. We had no water for 20 hours. We banged on the side of the container. There was no air and it was very hot. There were 300 of us in my container. By the time we arrived in Sheberghan, only ten of us were alive."
...
One Afghan trucker, forced to drive one such container, says that the prisoners began to beg for air. Northern Alliance commanders "told us to stop the trucks, and we came down. After that, they shot into the containers [to make air holes]. Blood came pouring out. They were screaming inside." Another driver in the convoy estimates that an average of 150 to 160 people died in each container.
When the containers were unlocked at Sheberghan, the bodies of the dead tumbled out. A 12-man U.S. Fifth Special Forces Group unit, Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) 595, guarded the prison's front gates and, according to witnesses, controlled the facility in the hopes of picking key prisoners for interrogation and possible transportation to Guantánamo Bay. (This is how Lindh was singled out.) "Everything was under the control of the American commanders," a Northern Alliance soldier tells Doran in the film. American troops searched the bodies for Al Qaeda identification cards. But, says another driver, "Some of [the prisoners] were alive. They were shot" while "maybe 30 or 40" American soldiers watched.
...
One Afghan trucker, forced to drive one such container, says that the prisoners began to beg for air. Northern Alliance commanders "told us to stop the trucks, and we came down. After that, they shot into the containers [to make air holes]. Blood came pouring out. They were screaming inside." Another driver in the convoy estimates that an average of 150 to 160 people died in each container.
When the containers were unlocked at Sheberghan, the bodies of the dead tumbled out. A 12-man U.S. Fifth Special Forces Group unit, Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) 595, guarded the prison's front gates and, according to witnesses, controlled the facility in the hopes of picking key prisoners for interrogation and possible transportation to Guantánamo Bay. (This is how Lindh was singled out.) "Everything was under the control of the American commanders," a Northern Alliance soldier tells Doran in the film. American troops searched the bodies for Al Qaeda identification cards. But, says another driver, "Some of [the prisoners] were alive. They were shot" while "maybe 30 or 40" American soldiers watched.
If the stories turn out to be true, as the UN leak indicates they may very well be, then allied forces will have stooped to the same horribly grotesque tactics that we we claimed to be working against. Maybe you already realize this and just don't care. It seems to me that it would be irrational to engage in such atrocities while simultaneously attempting to demonize them.
[EDITED BELOW]
Also, in regards to the alleged massacre... the reports mention that not everybody captured has, in fact, been a Taliban fighter or fighter of any other kind. Many innocent people were unfortunately caught in the hasty dragnets of American and Northern Alliance forces.
Abs An excellent first post!
I've heard of these two deaths at Gitmo, and how they were found to be homocides, but so far I have not heard what this has meant and whether any one has been held responsible.
With regards to the government of Afghanistan; Then I'm not surprised. The nation has no oil reserve's and it is not in America's interests to promote democracy in Afghanistan. In that respect, the country is much like large parts of Africa where thousands die and no one cares. So what should be the incentive for America to promote democracy in Afghanistan since the Taliban has been removed from power? The US has what it wants; the ability to kill any Taliban or al qaeda who may seek to return, and the pipeline from the north.
Within such a pessimistic view, there is no need to worry about the opium production since this is a source of wealth for America's allies in the region, as allies in such an inhospitable land they are granted a free reign to do as they will.
Despite what George W Bush says, there is indeed no real evidence to support any US claim that it intends to really help Afghanistan. The Project for the New American Century only mentions that nation in a single heading over the course of three years, and then it is only to advocate the arming and funding of Ahmed Shah Massoud (images) who was assassinated by the al qaeda two days before the Sept 11 attacks. Is it possible that the al qaeda anticipated Washingtons reactions and took out their biggest internal Afghani threat? It certainly would seem so.
I would even go so far as to say that the al qaeda probably based their entire strategy around such WWW sites as PNAC knowing full well what the American response would be, and even relying on it to force the rest of the Muslims into a wider conflict.
IF America does not address the issue of Afghanistan, then that nation will continue to be the festering wound it always was. Without an infra structure, it is only a matter of time before Afghanistan collapses back into itsself, and if America does not take these peoples lives seriously then we may very well see the Muslim world falling back down into the distrust and fear of the past. Todays victory in Iraq will be of no consolation if the al qaeda deploy a WMD within the USA or UK tomorrow!
America has to wake up. This war fever surrounding the liberation of Iraq is well and good, but it is not addressing the real problem. Apparently George Bush has decided on a strategy which seeks to deter the various suspect nations in the Middle East from lending aid to the terrorists, but will the example thus set with Saddam Hussein have any real effect?
What does it matter to the fundamentalists that the Iraqi dictator is removed? they would have looked upon him as a pawn. An infidel who could be used for the aquisition of WMD's until his 'sell by' date expired.
I've heard of these two deaths at Gitmo, and how they were found to be homocides, but so far I have not heard what this has meant and whether any one has been held responsible.
With regards to the government of Afghanistan; Then I'm not surprised. The nation has no oil reserve's and it is not in America's interests to promote democracy in Afghanistan. In that respect, the country is much like large parts of Africa where thousands die and no one cares. So what should be the incentive for America to promote democracy in Afghanistan since the Taliban has been removed from power? The US has what it wants; the ability to kill any Taliban or al qaeda who may seek to return, and the pipeline from the north.
Within such a pessimistic view, there is no need to worry about the opium production since this is a source of wealth for America's allies in the region, as allies in such an inhospitable land they are granted a free reign to do as they will.
Despite what George W Bush says, there is indeed no real evidence to support any US claim that it intends to really help Afghanistan. The Project for the New American Century only mentions that nation in a single heading over the course of three years, and then it is only to advocate the arming and funding of Ahmed Shah Massoud (images) who was assassinated by the al qaeda two days before the Sept 11 attacks. Is it possible that the al qaeda anticipated Washingtons reactions and took out their biggest internal Afghani threat? It certainly would seem so.
I would even go so far as to say that the al qaeda probably based their entire strategy around such WWW sites as PNAC knowing full well what the American response would be, and even relying on it to force the rest of the Muslims into a wider conflict.
IF America does not address the issue of Afghanistan, then that nation will continue to be the festering wound it always was. Without an infra structure, it is only a matter of time before Afghanistan collapses back into itsself, and if America does not take these peoples lives seriously then we may very well see the Muslim world falling back down into the distrust and fear of the past. Todays victory in Iraq will be of no consolation if the al qaeda deploy a WMD within the USA or UK tomorrow!
America has to wake up. This war fever surrounding the liberation of Iraq is well and good, but it is not addressing the real problem. Apparently George Bush has decided on a strategy which seeks to deter the various suspect nations in the Middle East from lending aid to the terrorists, but will the example thus set with Saddam Hussein have any real effect?
What does it matter to the fundamentalists that the Iraqi dictator is removed? they would have looked upon him as a pawn. An infidel who could be used for the aquisition of WMD's until his 'sell by' date expired.
You have to be a damn moron to believe the USA can turn any country in the Middle East into a democratic capitalist society overnight. There is no question that Afghanistan is better off now then it was prior to Sept 11. Of course the people crying would prefer an undemocratic socialist country. Too bad I do not have time to debate via websites, it is a poor form of debate.
QUOTE
You have to be a damn moron to believe the USA can turn any country in the Middle East into a democratic capitalist society overnight. There is no question that Afghanistan is better off now then it was prior to Sept 11.
Care to back this up...?
From the CBS article:
QUOTE
"It's like I am seeing the same movie twice and no one is trying to fix the problem," said Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of Afghanistan's president and his representative in southern Kandahar. "What was promised to Afghans with the collapse of the Taliban was a new life of hope and change. But what was delivered? Nothing. Everyone is back in business."
Karzai said reconstruction has been painfully slow — a canal repaired, a piece of city road paved, a small school rebuilt.
"There have been no significant changes for people," he said. "People are tired of seeing small, small projects. I don't know what to say to people anymore."
When the Taliban ruled they forcibly conscripted young men. "Today I can say 'we don't take your sons away by force to fight at the front line,'" Karzai remarked. "But that's about all I can say."
...
"There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police," said Mohammed. "The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not."
Karzai said reconstruction has been painfully slow — a canal repaired, a piece of city road paved, a small school rebuilt.
"There have been no significant changes for people," he said. "People are tired of seeing small, small projects. I don't know what to say to people anymore."
When the Taliban ruled they forcibly conscripted young men. "Today I can say 'we don't take your sons away by force to fight at the front line,'" Karzai remarked. "But that's about all I can say."
...
"There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police," said Mohammed. "The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not."
No real administration, no army, no police. They've managed to rebuild a canal, a small school and a piece of paved road. They sure sound better off to me. That doesn't sound too promising considering the extensive bombing that occured there, but maybe it's just me. Then there's...
QUOTE
At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago.
Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism.
Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism.
Thieving warlords...? But aren't they helping American forces?
And surely you haven't forgotten the dramatic increase in heroid production and distribution, have you? It's a mighty big increase when you go from 1,685 hectares to 30,750 hectares and are now producing three quarters of Europe's heroin.
Maybe I'm just pessimistic. I know the Taliban was a brutal regime, but certainly the warlords aren't doing any better. It seems that they are no better off than before. If anything, they are living under the same dangerous conditions or worse... anybody have something to indicate a better, improved standard of living for the people of Afghanistan...?
[EDIT for Civilian Casualties below]
"Counting the Dead"
QUOTE
In the eight months since I published my original study, I have updated and corrected my database, and incorporated the civilian deaths resulting from British and US special forces attacks. My most recent figures show that between 3,125 and 3,620 Afghan civilians were killed between October 7 and July 31. This is compatible with the sample counts done by Donnelly-Shadid, Filkins and (probably) the Reuters study. Comparison with the PDA and Los Angeles Times reports is difficult to make as they do not reveal raw data and exactly which sources were employed. The AP count is flawed both in coverage and methodology and the Global Exchange report is incomplete.
Numbers may still be bouncing, but as the report indicates, compatible studies are indicating that therey may have been as many as 3,125 - 3,620 civilian deaths as a result of the Afghan bombing campaigns. Taking this into consideration, that canal, school and bit of paved road amount to even less as signs of progress...
A MORE IN DEPTH ANALYSIS...
QUOTE(hugo @ Apr 11 2003, 12:57 AM)
You have to be a damn moron to believe the USA can turn any country in the Middle East into a democratic capitalist society overnight. There is no question that Afghanistan is better off now then it was prior to Sept 11. Of course the people crying would prefer an undemocratic socialist country. Too bad I do not have time to debate via websites, it is a poor form of debate.
If you don't have the time perhaps you should just leave altogether and stop flaming everyone who choses to think differently. If this is a waste of time then why do you persist?
Is Afghanistan better? For the people who are alive in Kabul and Kandahar, probably. Can you explain to me how things have improved measurably elsewhere? If you can provide any sort of documentation or evidence other than vague political generalizations showing that the lives of Afghanis have improved I'll relent.
QUOTE(hugo @ Apr 10 2003, 08:57 PM)
Too bad I do not have time to debate via websites, it is a poor form of debate.
I'm inclined to agree with Joe. Why bother post at all if that is how you feel about online debate forums?
That's a rhetorical question, btw.
How about some constructive posts regarding the US rebuild of Afghanistan?
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Apr 10 2003, 09:18 PM)
Is Afghanistan better? For the people who are alive in Kabul and Kandahar, probably. Can you explain to me how things have improved measurably elsewhere? If you can provide any sort of documentation or evidence other than vague political generalizations showing that the lives of Afghanis have improved I'll relent.
Does anyone know what percentage of the population lives in these two metropolitan areas?
You like that, 'metropolitan areas'?
QUOTE
Did you even read the articles?
I said If they fought for the Taliban.
QUOTE(Abs like Jesus @ Apr 10 2003, 08:28 PM)
QUOTE
You have to be a damn moron to believe the USA can turn any country in the Middle East into a democratic capitalist society overnight. There is no question that Afghanistan is better off now then it was prior to Sept 11.
Care to back this up...?
No real administration, no army, no police. They've managed to rebuild a canal, a small school and a piece of paved road. They sure sound better off to me. That doesn't sound too promising considering the extensive bombing that occured there, but maybe it's just me. Then there's...
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At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago.
Patience is a virtue.
In some instances, the U.S. may not be helping, but others who want to help in Afghanistan are participating:
White House.gov: Re-Building Afghanistan
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Counternarcotics, Police and Justice Sector Reform: The Afghans want to revise their police and justice sectors, and the U.S. is helping them with $66 million for this purpose. These funds are being used for a variety of activities:
Creating over 52,000 short-term jobs to provide alternative employment to poppy growers.
Helping the capital of Kabul become safer, by training & equipping 7,000 police officers.
Reforming the judicial sector by providing infrastructure for legal professionals & support for effective functioning of the courts.
The U.S. and our coalition partners are helping Afghans create a facility to train police, judges & prosecutors, including women, in modern criminal justice principles & human rights. The United Kingdom has the lead on assistance to combat narcotics. The German government has the lead on the police, while the Italian government is leading efforts to rebuild the judicial sector.
Creating over 52,000 short-term jobs to provide alternative employment to poppy growers.
Helping the capital of Kabul become safer, by training & equipping 7,000 police officers.
Reforming the judicial sector by providing infrastructure for legal professionals & support for effective functioning of the courts.
The U.S. and our coalition partners are helping Afghans create a facility to train police, judges & prosecutors, including women, in modern criminal justice principles & human rights. The United Kingdom has the lead on assistance to combat narcotics. The German government has the lead on the police, while the Italian government is leading efforts to rebuild the judicial sector.
Seems to me the Law Enforcement thing is going fine
The new Afghan army (From same link)
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Afghan National Army: The U.S. supports the Afghan government's plan to create an army of 70,000 to defend Afghanistan and respond to any external threats that may arise. The United States is leading the international effort to revitalize the Afghan National Army & has helped to train and equip four battalions, comprising 1,600 soldiers. The U.S. will also provide assistance for military infrastructure, including $16 million for rebuilding barracks, dining facilities and training areas.
As for technology, an Aussie is helping:
Re-Wiring Afghanistan
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Alan Pearson is a 58-year-old Aussie who's leading an eight-person team from BearingPoint (formerly KPMG Consulting) to build a computerized financial-management system that will help Afghanistan rejoin the 21st century.
Paks want a bilaterial boost trade with afghan.
Afghan women Driving again
And a local starts his own businesses
Local opens his own shops
Some of this stuff is recent, you just haven't been hearing it in the news because the War in Iraq has taken over every news channel in the English speaking world
The CBS report was recent, too... only 6 days ago.
The White House report sounds promising, so perhaps that is what we will see take shape in the next few months or years. I would hope that is what we will see, considering the promises made to the people of Afghanistan.
I guess the people interviewed by CBS (including Karzai's brother) just have a different perspective than Washington on the humanitarian and government aid in Afghanistan.
Thanks for the links and the new perspective
The White House report sounds promising, so perhaps that is what we will see take shape in the next few months or years. I would hope that is what we will see, considering the promises made to the people of Afghanistan.
I guess the people interviewed by CBS (including Karzai's brother) just have a different perspective than Washington on the humanitarian and government aid in Afghanistan.
Thanks for the links and the new perspective
QUOTE(hugo @ Apr 10 2003, 07:57 PM)
You have to be a damn moron to believe the USA can turn any country in the Middle East into a democratic capitalist society overnight.
Thanks for the helpful contribution. You could have added that one would have to be a similarly damned moron to believe that anyone could impose any kind of government on a people without their consent and cooperation - especially one which serves the needs of foreign business interests over those of the indigenous population.
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There is no question that Afghanistan is better off now then it was prior to Sept 11.
In the real world, it seems that there are very serious questions about the quality of life in Afghanistan at the moment - there are abundant links in this thread which raise many such questions.
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Of course the people crying would prefer an undemocratic socialist country.
Who's crying? Is anyone here crying?? Do you mean those who are questioning the progress which has been made in Afghanistan? If so, could you please point out one such person who is advocating socialism in Afghanistan, undemocratic or otherwise? Silly tactic, hugo. A representative democracy would be nice, if feasible, but that's not up to me - or George W Bush - to demand. Frankly, though, I don't care whether Afghanistan has a capitalist democracy, a social democracy, an agrarian communist form of government, or a monarchy, so long as it is not oppressing social minorities or persecuting religious minorities. It would probably have been a better idea for any government to have evolved organically rather than having one which would best suit the business interests of US corporations imposed by fiat.
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Too bad I do not have time to debate via websites, it is a poor form of debate.
I suspect that on a board such as this you will find more than a few people disputing your opinion of the efficacy of debating via web sites; I'm certain, though, that you'll find near unanimous agreement that inflammatory, unfounded postings like yours are, indeed, a poor form of debate.
To inject a note of gloomy cynicism into the debate: Has it occurred to you, Abs, that the resumption of heroin production may have been, along with securing a Caspian Sea pipeline, one of the real reasons for the Afghan campaign? Let's not forget that drug trafficking is very big business in the US and that some of the best families have made and/or built their fortunes through heroin and cocaine (indeed, it was the opium trade which financed the founding of the Skull and Bones Society, of which both Presidents Bush are members); that many major US corporations trade in the laundering of "black pesos"; that the US has a $30 billion annual "prohibition industry" for law enforcement to wage their lucrative war; and that the CIA has used the traffic of illegal drugs as a source of "black funds" to finance covert operations for generations.
In fact, the heroin trade in Afghanistan has been controlled by CIA assets since the early eighties. A significant part of the funding of the mujahedin and their US-backed anti-Soviet jihad came from the Golden Crescent drug triangle. According to Alfred McCoy's Drug fallout: the CIA's Forty Year Complicity in the Narcotics Trade, "As the mujahedin guerrillas seized territory inside Afghanistan, they ordered peasants to plant opium as a revolutionary tax. Across the border in Pakistan, Afghan leaders and local syndicates under the protection of Pakistan Intelligence operated hundreds of heroin laboratories. During this decade of wide-open drug-dealing [the golden age of Reagan-Bush], the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency in Islamabad failed to instigate any major seizures or arrests... U.S. officials had refused to investigate charges of heroin dealing by its Afghan allies 'because U.S. narcotics policy in Afghanistan has been subordinated to the war against Soviet influence there.'" Never mind the fact that the heroin trade was financing that war.
Prior to the Taliban's recent crackdown, the Golden Crescent provided from $100 - 200 billion per annum to business syndicates, financial institutions, intelligence agencies, and organized crime - approximately one-third of global narcotics profits. Maybe the Taliban was a bit too successful in eliminating this particular cash crop and it was beginning to impact on the US economy. Maybe we need those peasants and warlords to continue producing and exporting heroin. ...
goamerica:I have stated elsewhere that I put about as much faith in White House press releases as I do in the Iraqi Ministry of Information. At least someone at the White House has a rather dark sense of humor (or it could just have been an alarming Freudian slip). The introduction to Rebuilding Iraq concludes with this sentence: "The international community in 2002 pledged $2 billion for Afghanistan, nearly all of which has been spent or is in the pipeline."
As though to assuage the doubts of those of us familiar with our government's own connections to the drug trade, the White House's prospectus says that "the United Kingdom has the lead on assistance to combat narcotics." That's encouraging. Do the words "Opium Wars" ring any bells?
While the White House story sounds good, what is the reality? Should one accept the "plans" and "promises" of this administration over the word of the Afghan president, his brother (and representative to southern Kandahar), the International Red Cross, the governor of Herat province, the commander of Kandahar's 2nd Corps, and the Security Office of the United Nations (all cited in the links which Abs provided)?? I wouldn't.
In any event, I don't believe that any of this bodes particularly well for the future of Afghanistan - or, for that matter, Iraq. We shall see...
QUOTE(Wertz @ Apr 12 2003, 06:47 PM)
goamerica:I have stated elsewhere that I put about as much faith in White House press releases as I do in the Iraqi Ministry of Information. At least someone at the White House has a rather dark sense of humor (or it could just have been an alarming Freudian slip). The introduction to Rebuilding Iraq concludes with this sentence: "The international community in 2002 pledged $2 billion for Afghanistan, nearly all of which has been spent or is in the pipeline."
Correction: The third sentence of that paragraph should read "The introduction to Rebuilding Afghanistan..." not "Rebuilding Iraq". It's so difficult to keep track of all these conquests.
Am I allowed to spam? 
Eeeek, I may get in trouble.
This is a local alaska charity which is rebuilding schools in Afghanistan, people are there working now. Its a small but genuine effort. For anyone who might like to contribute, very little goes a long way, and they also would like air miles anyone can donate. http://afghanistanproject.org/index.htm
Here is their page on how far a few dollars go:
http://afghanistanproject.org/budget.htm
If this is out of line, I apologise, but I had to give it a try since I'd like to get them all the help I can and Anchorage is a small town.
Eeeek, I may get in trouble.This is a local alaska charity which is rebuilding schools in Afghanistan, people are there working now. Its a small but genuine effort. For anyone who might like to contribute, very little goes a long way, and they also would like air miles anyone can donate. http://afghanistanproject.org/index.htm
Here is their page on how far a few dollars go:
http://afghanistanproject.org/budget.htm
If this is out of line, I apologise, but I had to give it a try since I'd like to get them all the help I can and Anchorage is a small town.
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