"A Christian's Duty in Time of War"

Is this right?

First of all, not every Marine is a Christian. Secondly, it doesn't seem very wise to promote this kind of religious rhetoric in such a volatile region already concerned with U.S. occupation -- I mean, this just smacks of Crusade, whether intended to or not. It also recalls into question just how much a role religion might be playing in this administration. While I support their rights to believe whatever they choose, I don't want the leaders of our nation running away with ideas of divine appointment and manifest destiny.

I'm curious to hear some other opinions on this. The principal question is in bold, but any related questions pertaining to the topic are more than welcome.

It did not say every Marine was given the pamhlet.



It is not being distubuted to the Iraqi people is it?
I refer back to the first as well, it did not say every Marine had been given these.


How so? or is this just conjecture on your part because you do not like it?


This administration has made no bones about how much religion may play into its running. Pres. Bush is a God fearing, God loving, God worshiping christian. How is it a question when it has been known, and criticized for the entire run of this administration?



Again, conjecture. Are you trying to say that the President (who the prayer is for) authorized these pamphlets? And if you "support" their rights to believe whatever they choose than you should support thier right to belive it was a divine appointment. If a President belives for what ever reason they feel they have been led down a path by thier diety to a point where they are at where they are is that wrong? Or you just don't like it?

Is it right? To some it is, to some it may not be. Right and wrong on this issue is totally up to everyone's view point. It is grey at best.

Who gave out these pamphlets?

That was a very stupid idea on somebody's part.

You would prefer to think Bush didn't authorize them? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the President of the United States also bears the title of Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces.

Not every Marine was given a pamphlet, no. But it also doesn't say every of the thousands of Marines was Christian or evangelical, either. In any case, I don't feel Marines in combat (or otherwise) should be required to fill out a prayer card praying for the president and hoping "that the President and his advisers will recognize their divine appointment ..." As for the Iraqis, it doesn't have to be given to them. I'm not talking about offending the general population by asking them to pray to or for President Bush. I'm simply pointing out that if this kind of thing persists, people are likely to begin making comparisons to Crusades because of the degree of religious rhetoric being tossed about.

As for religion in the administration, I didn't question that it plays a role. That much was made painfully clear with the faith-based initiative and the suspension of aid to countries not willing to promote "abstinence first" over sex education. I merely questioned the degree to which it plays a role. People don't mind too much when it's a prayer here or a prayere there. When leaders or those around them start talking about "divine appointment," though, opinion tends to change.

No, I don't like it. It's megalomaniacal and dangerous. I'm all for personal belief and letting Bush pray as much as he likes in the Oval Office and at public functions. But if his beliefs start down the path of "divine appointment" or manifest destiny, then they are no longer just his personal beliefs, because they have a direct impact on my life and the way I live it here in America.

First off, The Nation's editorial bias is shining through a little in the stating that "soldiers are 'supposed' to fill out the form, and the soldier 'is to' sign it"..........
No soldier, airman, marine or sailor is EVER compelled to sign or take possession of ANY religious literature. No commanding officer ANYWHERE can order this to happen.
That said, I'm fairly certain that this was passed out by a chaplain or chaplains during religious services or while making thier rounds. I think it's silly, but if someone wants to pray for Bush then I'm pretty sure we have that right.

This type of event would not make a ripple among the Iraqi civilian populace, unless that is.......someone publicized it for that purpose.

Yes, I would. In fact, that's what I believe. What is your proof that Bush authorized this, and not some private organization?

In FACT...now that I actually look at the card, it has the name InTouch Ministries written on it. That is the private organization which creates and distributes the card. The point of mailing it, probably, is to tell Bush you support him, and are praying for him. There is no coercion there, stated or implied.

Are you saying he makes every decision, no matter how small? Or just the ones you'd like to take issue with?

My guess is he has more important things to do than approve prayer cards. Even if the prayer is for him.

Many organizations and differing religious groups are authorized to offer support to our troops. I don’t really like debating through question but I want to get a better feel for where you are on this issue.

If the group offering the prayer cards was Islamic would you be offended?

If our government using our tax dollars printed those pamphlets, then I'd say it was inappropriate.

Those marines aren’t “required” to fill out the card. It’s optional.

The article itself made mention that "InTouch Ministries" was responsible for making the cards.

Dontreadonme,

I had forgotten you have military experience. I have as yet been unable to determine how the pamphlets found their way to Iraq or who in Iraq distributed them amongst the Marines. I will continue looking, but do you have any insight as to how much access a private organization like InTouch might have to U.S. Marines engaged in combat?

While the Nation link I provided cites a date of March 31, I've seen the report dated as early as March 26 on other sites. I don't have any military experience myself, so I was assuming private organizations couldn't just stroll around in the midst of a combat zone.


I'm not saying he makes every single decision, but I imagine he knew about them. If nothing else, it seems beyond doubt that he has known about them now, since the prayer cards were to be mailed to him. He certainly isn't taking any exception to prayers seeking to confirm his "divine appointment" no matter how controversial it may appear.
[Edited for response below]

This isn't support for the troops. This is asking the troops to support the president, not just militarily but now spiritually as well. As to your question: I wasn't offended in the first place. Whether it's Christianity, Judaism or Islam, I'm simply concerned when the Marines are asked to support the notion that our president is somehow "divinely appointed" during a time of war.

I think the President does have other things to do besides giving his authorization on something like this, especially when it is a prayer for himself. When have you ever seen, herd or read the President taking or asking for any credit to anything he himself has done? Or out right said he is there because of divine right?

Which leaders have said this? please lend some references besides this pamphlet artical which does not state who passed them out and to which Marines.

Just add this one to the "this war is for oil" argument.



IF is just that, a conjecture. We can play the IF game all day long. Until I see or hear the President or anyone in his administration make those statements I can't honestly worry to much about that. But, IF that ever does happen, you can bet your life I will stand right beside you.

(edited since you Abs posted while I was writing my response)


I call my partner my goddess, and she has yet to take any action what so ever to force me from stopping this. That does not make her a goddess, nor has it (yet ) made her act like one. If someone, anyone thinks to themselves that this president, or any other president was given a "divine appointment" that is there belief. It does not mean it is what the President believes.

I'm not real religious, so I can't say for sure the mechanism for this type of literature to find it's way to the troops. I would make an unscientific guess and say the military is probably included in several ministries' outreach programs. The troops can get little camouflaged bibles that come from some private company (Gideons maybe?) So I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same type of thing.



The only access to formal religious people that troops SHOULD have in a combat theater is through the chaplain. Can't get past the image of a couple of Jehovah's Witness's on bicycles pulling up beside a tank

Don't get me wrong, however, I still think this whole pray for the prez thing is silly.

Praying for Bush isn't Crusade like, it's not like we're saying, "Go Christianity, down with Islam!" we're just giving our Pres. all the help he can get, what's the problem?

CP

I don't think the literature in question makes too much sense from the standpoint of my Christian theology, but OTOH I don't think the military attempts to control the content of religious literature distributed to troops by private organizations, nor do I think they should, unless somebody is advocating conversion to Wahhabism (which would be incompatible with service in the U.S. military) or human sacrifice. This sounds a little nutty, but not outright crazy and not treasonous.

my bn commander is very religious as is all of the officers in the battalion, my personal aspect on this goes with a christian grassroots movement, combined with a cold war hangover. you know those godless commies. there is a interesting sign in the captins office it goes on about sending the godless commies back to cave dwelling, i have a sense of humor to but that is borderline to me about the american army???

so in conclusion dont be suprised when you see this kind of stuff, we tried to make an artillery piece called the "crusader"

I wonder what all these conservative defenders would have said about a leaflet like this being distributed about Clinton during the Kosovo action? Just a thought.

I also wonder if Dr. Stanley made prayer cards about Clinton durning Kosovo... doubtful!

I also wonder, Iz:



What if the pamphlets were from the Quaker Church, and in them were stated the (theologically sound) premises upon which the Quakers base their nonviolence and pacifism? Would they be allowed? Would the content be controlled then? It's certainly not a radical belief, or traitorous... methinks the "freedom" is more likely within a fairly narrow range of debate.

I didn't see anything about divine appointment on the brochure I downloaded from intouch.org.

I think it is optional for the troops to fill out this card or not. I think in these times of war we all need to pray that Bush leads us in the right direction and that our armed forces make it home safe and sound.
A little prayer won't hurt anyone and if you don't believe then don't.

Quarkhead, we don't know the context in which these 'cards' were distributed. It might have followed a religious service, for all we know. Chaplains are present in military campaigns, too. Quaker cards might be passed out at a quaker service, although I believe they are pacifists, so would not be represented in the military. Chaplain representation requires that a certain percentage of the troops be that religious affiliation (I'm not sure the percent, I think it's 15).

BTW..I don't like the insinuation that I'm a hypocrite because I see nothing sinister about the distribution of prayer cards. Prayer cards weren't passed out during the Kosovo operation, to my knowledge, but we didn't have troops on the ground there. Most of the troops were based at Aviano, Italy, were they could attend service at a civilian church of their choice (if they found the time). Had there BEEN prayer cards distributed through the chaplains at the base I would not have complained, and I SURELY would have never suggested it smacked of megalomania and treason, as the less conservative members here have expressed.

I take issue with 'divine appointment.' And I am familiar with the scripture verse quoted. Now, maybe we got this President because we deserved him for some reason, but it certainly wasn't democracy's finest hour when we got him.

I am Christian, but I pray the way I please. I pray for the troops, I pray for the Iraqis, and sometimes yes, I pray for Bush (he needs prayer, heck, we could all use some), and for our country. But to pray for Bush in the context mentioned here, no way. It may be an extreme example, but should Chinese Christians have considered Chairman Mao their "divinely appointed leader?" A man being in a position of power doesn't necessarily have God's "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval."

It does make the war in Iraq sound like a Crusade. And the funny thing is, the Pope was against it! I'm with the Pope, but I do not expect non-Catholics to consider John Paul II "divinely appointed."

(Edited)

If that pamphlet's messege were correct, what right does George Bush have to overthrow another "divinely appointed" leader, Saddam Huissen?

Rattlesnake,

AMEN, BROTHER !

Your logic is impeccable.

God gave us brains, and if it were our job to just blindly follow our leaders, the American Revolution would have never taken place.

Paladin Elspeth

I secretly hope that those prayers for Bush would backfire, and perhaps some unfortunate miracle would happen. Since that is harsh and even illegal to say or publish (Thou shalt not threaten the president),we'll just pretend I never said that.
Otherwise, I'd have to concur that this does sound rather Crusadish, but only on the part of Christians participating. Everyone else is just following orders.