I started this thread due to a posting by Artemise. I thought it should be a topic in itself. Are intelligent women considered attractive? Is it an asset to have an opinion, or is it better to just shut up and look pretty?
I would like some participation from you gals out there (especially), if you can give me some insight, please. My experience tells me most men (I'm sure those here might refute it) prefer a beautiful woman to remain relatively silent, giggling at the proper points in conversation. Of course, the man I married isn't that way....but, overall, that has been my observation.

There is nothing I like better about a woman than to be able to talk intelligently with her. I suppose I'm just as shallow as most men in that I like attractiveness, and subconsciously pass judgement on any woman I meet.
But as far as relationships go, I couldn't stand spending time with someone who has two brain cells chasing each other around inside her cranium.

So, in my opinion, yes intelligent women are indeed attractive. But that's just this man's pov.

Intelligent women rock.

Why would any man or woman that is opinionated, well-read, involved, conscious, concerned and with an I.Q. above a potted plant want to spend time with someone who is not?

Outward physical beauty may be alluring, but it's the emotional and intellectual attributes that have kept me married for 22 years. My wife is beautiful, smart AND sexy as hell. I could always ask for more, but I've never found anyone else that possessed all her winning traits. If I had found someone better, I'd be with them.

Intellingent women are only intimidating to weak-minded, insecure men.

Nobody would ever raise this question about a man.

I tend to find intellect one of the most attractive things about members of either sex. While most of my relationships have been with men, pretty much all of the women that I've found attractive enough to indulge in some sort of physical intimacy with have been very intelligent. On the other hand, as one-night-stands go, I've occasionally found myself drawn to men who weren't the sharpest knife in the drawer. There's something about "dumb hunks" that has a certain appeal - but not for a long-term relationhip.

For what it's worth, Artemise, I would have no qualms about identifying yourself as "female" here. It has been my experience that The Women of America's Debate tend to be among the most intelligent, articulate, and informed participants here.

I don't think it's intelligence that's a turn-off for so many men, exactly. It's more that women aren't "allowed" to be opinionated. It's what some have termed the "bitch syndrome"; if a man does it he's strong and assertive, but if a woman does it she's a bitch. That's not my belief, you understand, as my highly intelligent wife could attest, but it's most definitely out there.

It's easy to generalize on the basis of gender, and I've done it myself on this board, but when I look back on my general experiences, I have actually had a lot of cool men and women in my life who were definitely attracted to intelligence. I have also been around both men and women who felt emasculated by intelligence, because they felt like they needed the upper-hand in the relationship.

Personally, I could never have a relationship, friendly or otherwise, with someone who did not respect my intelligence and individuality, and I certainly couldn't be in a relationship with someone who did not have something intellectually stimulating to contribute. It doesn't matter if it coincides with my own ideology.

Women who are willing to "shut up and look pretty" even if they have something to say are a sad case. Some of them are victims of what they have been taught, but they ultimately are the ones who prioritize sexual appeal above intelligence. There's no reason that women can't have both.

Exactly what I was trying to say in the other thread, except..that society often teaches to prioritize sexual appeal or beauty above intelligence in women, going way back to when they are little girls. Think about this, when you see a little boy, you compliment him in such ways as, what a big boy you are, what a smart little boy, what a strong little man. With girls its usually , how pretty you look, such a lovely little girl, arent you sweet, such a little lady, etc.

I remember having some serious thoughts when I saw friends of mine who had a little girl of 5 y/o, who had recently met a little boy and it was clear the 2 had become friends. The adults were saying to her, are you gonna marry Johnny? I am absolutley positive this was not occurring with the boys parents. We do these things without thinking.

For the longest time I have seen little girls dressed in impossible play clothes and shoes. I have always thought, why dont they put some real runaround clothes on that girl so she can play right?

I am always shocked at lesbian jokes aimed at political or activist females. Hillary Clinton is not a macho female. She is well dressed and always looks feminine, yet through the Clinton years lesbian jokes abounded. (Must have been a vast right wing conspiracy) A man had never been called Iron Britches, in the case of Maggie Thatcher, while questioning her husbands masculinity because of his marriage to a powerful woman. Feminists have endured lesbian commentary since the beginning. Not to be redundant from my other post.

All well and good that the men who have responded here seem to enjoy intelligent women, however to what extent? My personal relationships have tolerated my interest in politics and classic literature, education and pet projects, as long as it does not interfere with getting attention from me when they want or need it which seems to be often. It has appeared that my interests are all good as long as he is priority, if not, we can have some serious problems. Only as I got older did I begin to care less what men think, but that doesnt go for a young lady in her 20's and 30's who would really like a partner.

In corporate life there are many lovely women who find themselves single in their 40's because their lifestyle and carreer have been intimidating or too demmanding. I personally have seen educated, white collar men cringe when politics is brought up to discussion by women. Its as if they feel like they are suddenly going to get creamed and would really rather avoid it.

My women friends have talked about certain things we do not do, not to bruise the ego. For example, you see a man or group of men trying to do a particular job and with one small change the whole thing would go a bit more smoothly, but you refrain from mentioning it, just to keep the peace, and not to be called a bitch behind your back. You just let them take the long way around. I can laugh at this now, but in my younger days I saw no reason for the pretense. I got called a bossy bitch alot, and sometimes still.
IE: Never interfere with a man working on a car!

Now that is for all of us who are attractive and smart. How about less attractive, smart women? Isnt there some predudice against them? A man can be fat and/or very unattractive, but he can well hold his own in business and debate, his looks are never questioned, where-as a woman might be subject to comments like, 'shes intelligent, capable, but hard to look at'. (to be mild).
I have asked many men what exactly their women do for a living, or what their hobbies are, and they really dont know! 'Something in a hospital, or some sort of music thing.'..can be the responses.

This is not a male bash, nor do I pretend that love for beauty is not a human trait for both sexes. Neither do I think you can readily change societies mores, especially on certain ingrained ideas. (Since weve been trying since way before Stanton, sheesh)

Initially we were talking about American ignorance. Since I was small I had a good brain, I asked alot of questions and took in concepts rather well. I believed that girls and boys were both able to do anything they wanted, until I learned that being a girl meant I wasnt allowed to do a bunch of things, and had responsability for all kinds of things boys didnt. (An old Mexican saying, watch your chickens because my roosters are running free.)?
At one time I decided it wasnt all that important, neither did it help me to have a brain, I was supposed to have a body and face. I am sure Im not the only little girl to get this idea. Naturally at a point in life you have to recover your brain, hopefully before its too late. This can still be disconcerting to your parents or society, who wonder why at 42 you never got married, and you cant explain that maybe you never wanted to or had other things on your mind.

In recent years many have worked hard to encourage girls in math, science and sports, as well as helping a parent when they work on the car or the house. Boys have to do dishes and laundry and house chores. No longer are the days when girls only get an education so that they could catch a good husband, and lo and behold, after much fighting, we have sports scholarships for girls and womens pro-sports. We have come a long way, but listening to women and girls, and mostly giving them room to be opinionated and engage fully is still far off.

I hope I have not strayed the topic.

Bravo, Cyan! I couldn't have said it better, or probably as well.

As for me, I know there are many men who aren't interested in intelligent women, but since men who feel that way would be of no interest to me, why should I care what they think?

I don't get many complaints about my intelligence or my looks, but my attitude is offensive to some. Oh well.

And sure, sometimes I get asked if I'm a lesbian. I just smile and say "yes" which is in fact mostly true. I'm not at all immune to the charms of a cute guy who does appreciate intelligence, but about 2/3 of the time I date women.

I absolutely hate to generalise but I have to say that in my experience many men do-not expect women (attractive or not) to have strongly held political (for example) opinions. Often whilst with a mixed group of men and women I have espoused my particular view on a subject to see the conversation stutter for a moment while they digest the fact that a woman just said it!! I even recall being pulled to one side by a female friend and basically told to ‘be careful – you’ll not make friends that way’!! So I don’t believe it’s only (some) men that are intimated by smart and attractive women – (some) women are too!!

Nope, I think you hit it on the head. I remember a statistic ( I don't have a link, sorry) which indicated that girls do better than boys, academically, until around the beginning of highschool, when they don’t perform as well. There are many theories as to why this is the case. The one explanation that I am familiar with links the precipitous fall to diet, but I’ve drawn my own conclusions based on my life experience. This is the age when girls discover boys, and attempt to learn the ‘art’ of being accepted.

People are social animals by nature. They will adapt to conform to the pressures which yield the most ‘reward’, to a great degree. Most people want a companion, especially at a young age when they are the most insecure. IOW…If Sally finds that studious behavior repels most of the boys she is interested in, she will adjust her behavior accordingly. Boys will feel more empowered to ask her out, since the new, appearance-and-not-intellect driven Sally is not only a visual trophy, but unintimidating. The equally insecure, and even more hormone driven teen boy certainly doesn’t want a (mental) challenge when he goes on a date.

I believe that most women aren’t even aware of the subtle personality shift, and it becomes second nature. Sally never consciously tells herself, “I have decided that I want to be liked today, so I will act like a dolt”. This occurs at an extremely impressionable young age when insecurities are high, and self-awareness dismally low. That learned, passive behavior follows them into adulthood.



Of course, you're absolutely right, Cyan. As far as mates go, though, I have to admit I've only found one person who ever looked beyond my appearance and loved me for my mind (mostly). I moved in with him immediately, and married him soon after.

In my first post to this thread, I was spewaking for myself. Here, I'd like to address what I observe. I do notice that a lot of men tend to discount the opinions of women. I tend to surround myself with women who are intelligent, politically aware, and articulate. I have often noticed in public places (I'm one of those sorts who will respond to overheard discussions in bars and restaurants, if I feel people are getting away with questionable opinions) that people will engage me in converstion on various issues, but if one of my female friends joins in, there's often (at best) a sort of tolerant pause while "the lady" speaks. Often, my female friends are talked right over or ignored entirely.

I suspect that part of this is that men are afraid of conceding a point to a woman - of appearing weker than the "the weaker sex". Many men, in short, are intimidated by intelligent women (in my experience) - even feel threatened by them. And God help any woman with an interest in traditionally male areas like sports or car maintenance.

As a result, I tend to practice a sort of reverse discrimination. In conversation, I try to solicit input from otherwise silent female companions of opinionated men. The women often seem as surprised as the men to find someone taking an interest in their views. This strikes me as being very sad.

This may be an off-topic example, but I inadvertantly came across a garage near my former residence which was managed by a woman, who did a lot of the maintenance work herself. Since I moved, I still go there for oil changes and servicing, despite the fact that it's now about a thirty mile drive - just because I think it's cool that a woman (and a rather attractive one at that) has had the tenacity to make a go of it in a male-dominated occupation. I even seek her out for advice on maintenance issues over the other men who work there. This sort of thing may seem overly PC, but I don't think we've come that far as a society that we can ignore gender disparity in the workforce - or even in casual conversation.

At times when men are interrupting or talking over another woman, sometimes their wife, I step in and say , 'excuse me but let her finish' or 'hold on , Im interested in what she was saying' . Really burns them, but hopefully drives home a point.

Genetically speaking intelligence is incredibly valuable in a partner. I wouldn't like to have dumb kids. I don't think women need special treatment and praise for being adventurous enough to talk in our society. Do male nurses get praise? I don't like ignorance in my friends, male or female. I also don't feel rebellious for being mature enough to treat women as friends and equals, I guess I'm part of a new generation. Is what I think that radical for an evil, carcinogenic, cigar-smoking, sexist being that we call a man?

The problem with intelligent women is they never fell for my stupid pickup lines.

As a lifelong believer of looks are only skin deep, I can honestly say that an intelligent woman is not only attractive but undeniably sexy! As for guys who feel threatened or intimidated by a intelligent woman, I can only say this: LOSER

That's easy for you to say. You have never had an intelligent (but mildly deranged) woman come at you with a butcher knife.

It was probably just PMS. Where's your sensitivity?

What is going on in this thread??? Could we get back to the debate please?

That reminds me: is the role of humor in attraction related to the role of intelligence, and does it differ between the sexes? IIRC, women often list humor as the #1 thing they look for in a partner, whereas it's further down the list for men. At the same time, though, it seems like it's OK for a man to be dead serious all the time but if a woman can't laugh she's pretty much doomed relationship-wise. Is humor a thing that (some) women use to defuse the feelings a man might otherwise have of being threatened by her intelligence?

Yes, I think intelligence and humor are related. On a primal level, humor is an intelligence gauge. A bad joke by a woman won’t ruin the night (unless it’s totally egregious), but a bad joke from a man might. If a woman ‘doesn’t get’ a joke, it’s okay (because it’s kind of cute she’s stupid) if a man doesn’t ‘get’ a joke, it’s a bad sign.

The best humor tends to be a little self-deprecating, so in the case of the woman, it indicates to the recipient male that she doesn’t take herself too terribly seriously, which puts him at ease. On the other hand, humor in a man indicates confidence. He is self- assured enough to not take himself (or life) too seriously.

All just my opinion, of course

I'd agree, mrs p. As humor is an intellectual process (as in comedy appeals to the intellect, tragedy to the emotions), humor and intelligence are clearly linked. Obviously, there are levels of sophistication involved: some guys will find The Hot Chick hilarious, others will prefer the humor of Gosford Park. But a good sense of humor - the ability to tell a joke, rather than simply laugh at one, the ability to engage in a bit of repartee - is clearly linked to intelligence.

I not as sure about your "self-deprecating" theory, though. You may be right about the "best" humor, but not necessarily the most common. In my experience, a lot of humor - especially in men - is devoted to running down other people or groups.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::

Platypus: I thought I'd read that the #1 thing women looked for in a partner was a cute butt . Have I been working on the wrong thing?

I've been known to, if they're funny and not too offensive. But I guess that links back to intelligence and sense of humor, both of which I look for, even just for a casual fling.


That too.

that was great, can i add my opinion.

i am a male, ug, is my name

no but on to some of my life experiences, on another chat group i go to i find that some of the more stronger issues are male dominated, i try to solicit change, its not very easy.

a teacher of mine, and older lady, made or became my favorite reason to go to class because i enjoyed my time there, so i guess i am not that bad.

but i do have a problem myself with it, i find it difficult to say, get to be more then friends with intelligent women, i feel that i am, or that its just not right for some reason. so i usually just keep them as friends then try to find other girls i can be with in that respect. theres just something wrong with haveing an intelligent women as a friend then finding yourslef thinking about her in other formats. to me that is, not that i feel "weak" by her but more or less that i am being evil to her, to i guess say, give her a kiss. maybe its my age.

From my experiance, the #1 thing women look for in a man is money That isn't, of course, all women, but the majority.

Im sorry you have that life experience. Maybe you should reevaluate both your own objectives and who your friends are. I know that is not reality for several here, myself included, but thats not the topic we are talking about. What might it have to do with womens intelligence to you?

As a horny young toad in the 60's I liked all women, but liked most those who had a sense of humor and were not afraid of their own intellect.
If they were selfish, mean, ignorant (and enjoy staying that way), or just a PITA, they couldn't be attractive enough to get me interested.
I could go home to my sisters and get that!

You need to go to the Incest..Why not? thread.

Love is blind.

Let's get back to making constructive posts here, please.

DEBATE TOPIC:

But thats my point Jaime.

Love does not regard any such factor as intelligence, or even appearence. I didn't fall in love because the other moif was beautiful or intelligent. To me, she is both, but then, I'm blinded by love so what do I know?

Sure intelligent women are attractive, but no more so than unintelligent women.

Are intelligent men attractive? I know many very smart and intelligent men who have never been given a second glance. I know one man, who is exceptionally intelligent, yet at 27, he is still a virgin.

Hi Moif, I think Mrspigpen's original question was more about whether or not men prefer their women to be quiet and "dolled up," if you will, as opposed to being outspoken.

I don't think it was a question of intelligent women being more attractive than unintelligent women. Actually, I think it was kind of the other way around.

Anyhow...I think you pretty much answered this in your last post, and the "intelligent man" thing, might make for a good topic in the "Men's Issues" section. We don't have much happening in there anyhow. Apparently, men have fewer issues than women.

cyan

... or they are just less willing to talk about it.

Well, you need to try my favorite pickup line...this works on them all - both dumb and smart:

"Excuse me, but does this rag smell like it has chloroform on it?"

I find intelligence extremely attractive unless the woman flaunts that intelligence at the expense of everyone (including me) around her. In my personal opinion and experience, smart women tend to make sure everyone around them knows they are smart. And to me, that's very unattractive.

Obviously, women don't have a patent on this behavior. But I don't care how smart or wealthy a guy is - I'm a homophobe and it doesn't matter.

In that case, she might or might not be intelligent, but she definitely IS insecure. Condescension is never becoming.

I'm trying to think of any women I've met that I'd consider not all that smart, and I can only think of one. She seemed like the typical dumb blonde stereotype, but she was also a college student who got very good grades. Was she out for her MRS degree?

Oh, another one. She did marry the doctor but had to get a divorce due to hitting her eye on doors too much. I guess intelligence has its various forms.

Here's a contrast: Hillary Clinton and Laura Bush. Both strike me as very intelligent, but they are on opposite ends of the spectrum for putting that intelligence into use. Hillary is an up front mover/shaker while Laura does her thing in the background.

Hillary attracts a lot of criticism, often very nasty stuff. Nobody talks about Laura. My feeling is that this reflects the basic issue.

Is it attractive to be an intelligent, *outspoken*, *aggressive*, *politically savvy* woman? Apparently to a lot of people, the answer is NO!

So, Laura Bush. Nobody really talks about her. She does her projects in the background, makes the scene silently, and pulls the strings in the dark. That's the traditional power behind the throne idea, and it seems to me that the country as a whole is more comfortable with it.

In business I'm seeing less of this. For example, Carly Fiorina of HP--seems like she is well respected and accepted. Is she attractive? It's hard to tell from just magazine photos. Physically, yeah, but as has been mentioned, that only goes so far. But how could she be successful without having attraction at all levels? So, I can safely assume that she is indeed attractive and highly intelligent.

Learn to read, it clearly says that what I could get from my sisters is "selfish, mean, ignorant, PITA, etc.
And if your only purpose in dating is sex, you are missing out on the intellectual exchange between humans that helps set us apart fromthe lower animals. Getting inside a woman's head is a major challenge, but worth the effort with the right one. That kind of bonding is much stronger than any other. The danger here, for some, is that you will be very tempted to marry her, but that really is a good thing.
That being said, I have known over the years some women (and men) whose heads are easy to get into, but there is nothing there. A few of us guys were talking about one looker in particular at work, and I asked one guy if he would like to be married to her. His response was, "maybe for a weekend, but no longer". Dumb is only attractive until the primal urge is satisfied.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Denmark comparable to Iceland with respect to lots and lots of beautiful women? If true, your 27 year old friend must find his situation all the more difficult.
I have seen that in action, where the man was just TOO CASUAL in his approach to his target, and another man, with much lower income no less, stepped in and scooped her up. They even invited the other man to their wedding.
Whatever the intellectual level of the woman, I think she still likes the idea of being pursued, until she catches you.

As someone who interviews people, often learning HOW to listen takes time. Or in this case unlearning and discovering how to converse with women takes time.

Author Pearl Cleage describes how men don't listen when women speak as mantones.

Mantones: This is the tone of voice regularly used by men to address women and children and other perceived inferiors. (For example, white men use mantones to speak to black men, but black men don't get to use mantones when speaking to white men.)

Other distinguishing features are the assumption of all available authority and unshakeable belief in the superiority of male moral fiber. A mantone is always condescending, often sarcastic and has been known to reduce grown women to weeping and cursing wrecks with its implacable certainty and smug inability to listen to anything a woman has to say.

Mantones are by their very nature and intent oppressive, sexist, learned behavior. They can be unlearned once they are defined and mutually accepted as unacceptable behavior.

err, sorry, i haven't read all the replies to this thread so i apologize if someone has said it before me...

i don't think it would be accurate to say that i'm attracted to intelligence; it's really more like i'm attracted to the person as a whole. intelligence is just one part that makes up the whole. there are many other factors that can make a woman attractive in my eyes.

so um, to answer the question; yes, intelligent women can be attractive but that is not to say it is their intelligence that makes them attractive... i hope that doesn't sound like i'm being sexist

Attractive women are attractive.

Intelligence is only one quality of attractivenss.

If you have a deformed arm that ozzes green slim, an eyeball 50% larger than the other, a bald head sprouting tuff of fur everywhere, I don't care if you're steven hawkin, you're not attractive to me

However, it is a fallacy to think that intellectual progress somehow counterballances physical digression. If you are 400 lbs, then you may have a high IQ, but I would question your attractiveness and your intelligence

However, no one expects you to be a supermodel. We just don't want you to be fatter than we are, nor flout it if you are smarter than we are.

And most of the guys I know love intelligent women. Too bad too many are afraid to show (not flout) it.

-Robert

If you like Ayn Rand then read pages: 452-452 in Atlas Shrugged for your answer.

Rand does seem to have a bi-polar view of things (one is either right or wrong) but that doesn't bother me since I prefer to do that same type of thing when I am able to.

O.

In my copy, it's page 490, if it's the same paragraph I'm thinking of

Yes.

I have been reading this book for quite a while (it's a slow read) but very worth it.

O.

I like intelligent women. See my babe on channel STAR, Apple Magazine. She is the redhead on one of the hour segments on how to handle disorderly children.

Well, I am an intelligent, AND a very physically attractive woman--at least that's the lie I've been told --, and at times, I think this combination is intimidating. As a lesbian, I have to say that intelligence was a huge factor when I looked for relationships in the past. Quite frankly, intelligent women are a turn-on. At least for me. But I think that this is because conversation and communication are EXTREMELY important in a relationship. If you are not with someone who has a similar intelligence level as yourself, can you really have multiple, meaningful conversations? My partner is very smart, and I enjoy having debate after debate with her, as well as hearing her ideas. I'm sure she feels the same about me, at least I hope she does. To sum up, intelligent women are very attractive, more so than just a pretty face.

first, I think its a mistake to try and base the world on averages...while I see a ton of shallow young men in college who go after skirts regardless of intelligence I also have met and come to know many young men who are very much attracted to women of intelligence. I think this goes for all age groups but particularly as men and women get older they look more to the mental aspects of their partner (as they get closer to that I want a partner to spend the rest of my life with).

I definitely think that boys are intimidated by strong independent intelligent women. HELL YEAH THEY ARE! And with good reason I guess. That kind of women is not just going to roll over and do whatever her boyfriend says. What I've found is that around 22 (sometimes earlier sometimes later) boys begin to learn that the high-maintenance pretty but dimwit chicks they dated in the past are not the type of female they want to be bound to the rest of their life. They start looking instead for those pretty but definitely intelligent strong females they might have overlooked or stamped off limits before. Those type of women are more work initially. They often dont hop in the sack with the first hunk who gives them the eye and they certainly dont allow any guy to tell them they arent worthy of an opinion or cant accomplish a particular task.

*I play rugby (inside center) and have always been a bit of a tomboy. I have significantly more male friends than female. I also have always been an honors student and learning has always come easily to me. I like to think I'm at least average if not attractive. I've seen a lot of males get intimidated by this but I've also found a pretty good number who ask "where are all the girls like you?" the answer is not in the bars/dance clubs you go to. And if they are there, its likely you wont be able to pick them out from the rest of the attractive women as easily as you might think.*

My best friend is one of the most beautiful women I know. When I first met her I didn't think that. Don't get me wrong - she has always been pretty. But she became beautiful the closer we became.

Part of that attractiveness comes from her intelligence. She is an "outside the box" thinker. I don't think our friendship would have blossomed had she not been someone to whom I could discuss (sometimes heatedly) every subject.

Personally, I prefer intelligent women, unintelligent women are so superficial, uninteresting and boring. I consider, it's my opinon, that when you go out with someone (and even more, marry someone), you must have more than just a physical attraction, because I think that basicaly a relation with a woman has to be enriching, and that there is nothing more despairing that being in front of your girlfriend and having nothing to say, having nothing to argue (and as I like to argue myself, you can imagine my problem). And I think that in a relationship, the other has to make you better, and you have to make her better either, and I really don't need to feel superior to my counterpart (I think that is the feeling of many guys who prefer unintelligent girls)