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kimpossible
Hm, I may not have alot of time to debate, but Ive thinking about this for awhile. Bush proposed another tax cut (and I dont know if it passed or not, or if its still on the table, whatever). I am curious about how another tax cut, or how ANY tax cut in American history has actually improved the state of American economics. All Ive heard about tax cuts is how they damage society (I, of course, and totally left wing, so it maybe thats all I ever hear?)

Also, the American dollar is incredibly low right now (1.16 for a euro), and from what Ive understood, we're paying beaucoup d'argent to other countries for supporting us (am I mistake?) during the war, so, where is our money coming from? Since its obviously not from income tax, or corporate taxes, and what is the solution if its not increasing taxes?
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Mrs. Pigpen
Here's a brief history of recent tax cuts and their effect on the economy:

from http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-sm03182003.html
QUOTE
All we can really rely upon to judge the economic value of tax rate reductions is the economic reaction to tax cuts in the past. Fortunately, Bush has history firmly on his side. The 1964 Kennedy income tax rate reductions spurred a bull market expansion and budgets in near balance through the 1960s. The 1981 Reagan tax cuts ushered in 7 consecutive years of prosperity and 15 million new jobs. The 1997 capital gains cut corresponded with a bull market rally in the stock market and a surge of investment spending and venture capital funding for new businesses.

The critics argue that the 2001 Bush tax cut has failed to provide any juice for the economy. But there's a good reason for that. Seventy percent of the tax cuts haven't taken effect yet. All the more compelling reason to speed up the tax cuts so they can provide immediate economic aid. Especially critical is to chop the highest and most economically punitive tax rates. Roughly two-of-every-three Americans who pay the top income tax rate are business owners or sole proprietors. If you want jobs, you need financially healthy and confident employers with dollars to invest.

The dividend tax cut will have the same salutary effect on larger businesses. For example, John Rutledge, a respected Wall Street economist, has estimated that ending the double tax on dividends increases stock values by roughly 10% or an $800 billion increase in wealth, reduces businesses cost of raising investment capital by 25%, and helps stimulate a recovery in the battered high technology and telecom industries most. Many stock analysts, including economist John Rutledge of Kudlow and Co., believe that passing the dividend tax exemption and the acceleration of income tax rate reductions could add another 5 - 10% or so to equity values. That's the equivalent of a $500 billion to $1 trillion instant boost in wealth.

Clearly, even Americans who do own stocks that do not pay dividends or who own stocks in tax free 401k plans or IRAs will benefit from the dividend tax cut because of the increase in the valuation of stocks.



editted to add: (side note)I am surprised that the euro is doing as well as it is. What do you think of that currency? There's no paper below the value of 5 dollars (only coins) so I felt like a kid in a candy store when I went to buy anything. The first time I saw it, I thought, 'I should short this, because clearly they don't expect this stuff to retain its value'. Glad I didn't short it! Hopefully, this war craze will end and our currency might be reflected positively.
Platypus
QUOTE(mrspigpen @ May 17 2003, 09:21 AM)
The 1981 Reagan tax cuts ushered in 7 consecutive years of prosperity and 15 million new jobs. The 1997 capital gains cut corresponded with a bull market rally in the stock market and a surge of investment spending and venture capital funding for new businesses.


So these tax cuts supposedly took effect immediately...in stark contrast to the claims that we shouldn't be expecting to see any benefits from Bush's first one yet. Interesting. But then, the 1997 investment boom didn't really have anything to do with tax policy anyway. It happened because we had already been in a boom for five years (hmmm...why?) and because of new technology (Internet, optical networking, biotech).

About a year ago I did a simple analysis of economic growth vs. changes in tax policy, for various lags between the two. The highest correlation I found was at 11 years, for tax increases, but even that didn't seem statistically significant. Anyone else can look at the same numbers and see the same lack of a pattern for themselves. There are just too many other things that affect the economy more.

QUOTE
Roughly two-of-every-three Americans who pay the top income tax rate are business owners or sole proprietors.


So reduce the income tax rate. Eliminating the dividend tax has an entirely different effect on a mostly different group of people.

QUOTE
John Rutledge, a respected Wall Street economist


There's a phrase that always makes me confident in the source's objectivity, all right...just like the association with the Cato Institute. Respected by whom, I wonder. When one makes an appeal to authority, it should at least be to an authority likely to be recognized as such by others.

QUOTE
has estimated that ending the double tax on dividends increases stock values by roughly 10%


That would be a pretty neat trick, considering that many stocks don't give dividends - and this is particularly true for the smaller companies that drive economic growth and job creation. I'll save my comments about the "double taxation" canard for another time.

QUOTE
businesses cost of raising investment capital by 25%


Total garbage. I work for a startup (not my first) in a fairly senior role, and I was often called in to help with M&A stuff at my last job. I've seen this process up close and personal, and these tax changes have no effect whatsoever on the cost of raising investment capital.

QUOTE
Many stock analysts, including economist John Rutledge of Kudlow and Co.


Another appeal to (effectively anonymous) authority. People should be getting better at recognizing this trick by now.

QUOTE
passing the dividend tax exemption and the acceleration of income tax rate reductions could add another 5 - 10% or so to equity values. That's the equivalent of a $500 billion to $1 trillion instant boost in wealth.


Even if it happened, which is unlikely, it would only be a boost in paper wealth. That disconnect between paper wealth and real wealth is what brought us the current recession.

QUOTE
Clearly, even Americans who do own stocks that do not pay dividends or who own stocks in tax free 401k plans or IRAs will benefit from the dividend tax cut because of the increase in the valuation of stocks.


Clearly? Hardly. Saying something's clear doesn't make it true.
Hugo
QUOTE(Platypus @ May 17 2003, 08:25 AM)

QUOTE
passing the dividend tax exemption and the acceleration of income tax rate reductions could add another 5 - 10% or so to equity values. That's the equivalent of a $500 billion to $1 trillion instant boost in wealth.


Even if it happened, which is unlikely, it would only be a boost in paper wealth. That disconnect between paper wealth and real wealth is what brought us the current recession.


Unlike the speculation that led to enormously high P/E ratios for stocks, tax cuts actually increase the earnings side of the equation, thus legitimately spurring stock prices. Call it paper wealth if you wish.
kimpossible
QUOTE(mrspigpen @ May 17 2003, 08:21 AM)

editted to add: (side note)I am surprised that the euro is doing as well as it is. What do you think of that currency? There's no paper below the value of 5 dollars (only coins) so I felt like a kid in a candy store when I went to buy anything. The first time I saw it, I thought, 'I should short this, because clearly they don't expect this stuff to retain its value'. Glad I didn't short it! Hopefully, this war craze will end and our currency might be reflected positively.

I love the euro. Well, I like the 2 euro coin, and find it odd that the 1 dollar coin in the US didnt work, except in retrospect, I guess its because the US was A) used to one dollar bills and cool.gif still had the dollar as an option. I hate the 2 centimes coin though, but you get used to it after awhile.

That being said, is there a book I can read (lets try and pick something objective ) about tax cuts? Or is there any other information? And again, where is the money coming from to fix up America, since it seems we're doling out cash to other countries right now.

What are the reasons that this tax cut is OK, and will work? Because, again, it just seems the same old "rich stay rich, and get richer" scheme.
Amlord
QUOTE(Platypus @ May 17 2003, 10:25 AM)
QUOTE(mrspigpen @ May 17 2003, 09:21 AM)
The 1981 Reagan tax cuts ushered in 7 consecutive years of prosperity and 15 million new jobs. The 1997 capital gains cut corresponded with a bull market rally in the stock market and a surge of investment spending and venture capital funding for new businesses.


So these tax cuts supposedly took effect immediately...in stark contrast to the claims that we shouldn't be expecting to see any benefits from Bush's first one yet. Interesting. But then, the 1997 investment boom didn't really have anything to do with tax policy anyway. It happened because we had already been in a boom for five years (hmmm...why?) and because of new technology (Internet, optical networking, biotech).

About a year ago I did a simple analysis of economic growth vs. changes in tax policy, for various lags between the two. The highest correlation I found was at 11 years, for tax increases, but even that didn't seem statistically significant. Anyone else can look at the same numbers and see the same lack of a pattern for themselves. There are just too many other things that affect the economy more.

QUOTE
Roughly two-of-every-three Americans who pay the top income tax rate are business owners or sole proprietors.


So reduce the income tax rate. Eliminating the dividend tax has an entirely different effect on a mostly different group of people.

QUOTE
John Rutledge, a respected Wall Street economist


There's a phrase that always makes me confident in the source's objectivity, all right...just like the association with the Cato Institute. Respected by whom, I wonder. When one makes an appeal to authority, it should at least be to an authority likely to be recognized as such by others.

QUOTE
has estimated that ending the double tax on dividends increases stock values by roughly 10%


That would be a pretty neat trick, considering that many stocks don't give dividends - and this is particularly true for the smaller companies that drive economic growth and job creation. I'll save my comments about the "double taxation" canard for another time.

QUOTE
businesses cost of raising investment capital by 25%


Total garbage. I work for a startup (not my first) in a fairly senior role, and I was often called in to help with M&A stuff at my last job. I've seen this process up close and personal, and these tax changes have no effect whatsoever on the cost of raising investment capital.

QUOTE
Many stock analysts, including economist John Rutledge of Kudlow and Co.


Another appeal to (effectively anonymous) authority. People should be getting better at recognizing this trick by now.

QUOTE
passing the dividend tax exemption and the acceleration of income tax rate reductions could add another 5 - 10% or so to equity values. That's the equivalent of a $500 billion to $1 trillion instant boost in wealth.


Even if it happened, which is unlikely, it would only be a boost in paper wealth. That disconnect between paper wealth and real wealth is what brought us the current recession.

QUOTE
Clearly, even Americans who do own stocks that do not pay dividends or who own stocks in tax free 401k plans or IRAs will benefit from the dividend tax cut because of the increase in the valuation of stocks.


Clearly? Hardly. Saying something's clear doesn't make it true.

Platypus, the king of calling "ad hominem" and then using ad hominem...hmmm.

Attack the argument, not the source. You did this to some extent.

QUOTE
QUOTE 
Roughly two-of-every-three Americans who pay the top income tax rate are business owners or sole proprietors.


So reduce the income tax rate. Eliminating the dividend tax has an entirely different effect on a mostly different group of people.

The income tax IS being reduced. Many economists feel the dividend tax cut will spur a different sector of growth.

Many small businesses are NOT corporations precisely because of the double taxation "canard" (as you call it). The protections that the corporate form give are not widely available to small businesses since the owner is taxed on personal income AFTER the corporation is taxed on the same income. That alone is sufficient to spur economic growth since the proprietorship and partnership are inherently "risky" business forms.
Platypus
QUOTE(amlord @ May 20 2003, 10:51 AM)
Platypus, the king of calling "ad hominem" and then using ad hominem...hmmm.

Attack the argument, not the source.  You did this to some extent.


To no extent. I've already explained this: when one attempts an appeal to authority, the nature of that authority becomes relevant and questioning it is entirely valid. To say otherwise would be to make argumentum ad verecundiam an unstoppable weapon. There's a much more detailed explanation at http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/a...-authority.html, and another at http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/authorit.html and a third at http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.htm if you're interested in educating yourself.

QUOTE
Many economists feel the dividend tax cut will spur a different sector of growth.


Yeah, in the pockets of wealthy campaign donors, and therefore in the campaign coffers of Bush, Cheney et al. whistling.gif Your appeal to "many economists" is merely a repetition of your earlier fallacy, because opinion among economists is in fact sharply divided regarding whether the dividend tax cut will spur growth. Why don't you tell us who some of these "many economists" are, and why they would make the claim you attribute to them? That would actually be helpful. We could actually spend time discussing the merits of those arguments, instead of arguing about whether they should be taken at face value.
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(kimpossible @ May 19 2003, 05:33 PM)

That being said, is there a book I can read (lets try and pick something objective ) about tax cuts? Or is there any other information? And again, where is the money coming from to fix up America, since it seems we're doling out cash to other countries right now.

What are the reasons that this tax cut is OK, and will work? Because, again, it just seems the same old "rich stay rich, and get richer" scheme.

Well....I honestly thought the Cato Institute was fairly objective. I can't seem to find any 'objective' historical timelines correlating economic growth (or lack) and tax cuts. Here's a link for JFK's proposed tax cuts, and his rationale behind them: http://www.gfsnet.org/msweb/sixties/taxccut.htm

I think he's the last Democratic president who proposed a tax cut, but I'm not sure. Our definitions of Democrat and Republican have changed a bit since Kennedy.

QUOTE
Today President Kennedy has proposed a ten billion dollar tax cut in order to stimulate economic growth and employment. Over a period of three years, Kennedy hopes that this fairly large tax cut will level out the high wartime and postwar tax rates that are in effect today. In fact, Kennedy believes that the high tax rates are harmful, not leaving enough money in private hands to keep our country's economy in a growing and healthy state. Although Kennedy knows that by taking this risk, the result will be harsh on the Federal government, he put fourth five main and convincing reasons why a tax cut of this sort will do good for both the nation's economy and for the individual US citizen.

If Kennedy's tax cut were to come into effect, the results would slightly offset the goals and aims of the Federal government. In a time of war, the main priority of the government is to not appease public good and not to rebuild the economy but to concentrate on winning the war no matter what it may take. With our nation on the brink of nuclear war and in a strong conflict with Russia, we need to have our objectives set and focus on what we need to do to succeed. Also, with the effect of this tax cut, the Federal government and other large corporations would not benefit from the tax cut, resulting in a loss of money. If Kennedy takes this leap into our economy and temporarily disregards the war, we must only expect to have the Federal government intervene on this situation.

On the other hand, the president has good reason to follow through with this tax cut, marking five good reasons why his action would greatly help us as a whole. The first reason, and perhaps the most important one is straight forward. A tax cut means more jobs. The after-tax money received by the
ordinary consumer and investor means more spending money, which means more production, which gives more opportunities for employment. Employment will, in turn, reduce teenage crime and keep kids off the streets. The second reason stated by Kennedy brought up the issue of another recession. He expects that a tax cut would reduce the chance of recession by "keeping this present drive from running out of gas". The third and fourth reason for having a tax cut are related to the improvement of profits and marketing. Through a tax cut the American market would rise considerably, with people using their after-tax money to expand the market and create new 'ideal' machines. A tax cut also means higher family income and business profits. Finally, Kennedy stated a fifth reason why the US needs a tax cut. "A tax cut can help us balance our international accounts and end the overflow of gold by helping make the American economy more efficient and more productive....". This last reason proved to be the most popular one, regarding the situation we are in. The obvious competition that we are in right now (arms races, both nuclear and space) would greatly improve if what our president says turns out to be true.

The idea of a tax cut during this time seems to be way out of the picture but at the same time, it brings about advantages to both national and international affairs. In the long run, the tax cut can help us with both our economy and our position in the war but one question remains: Do we have that much time? It is a serious risk and if the proposal made by Kennedy is taken under consideration, I can only expect this proposal to remain tied up in the senate for quite some time.
Amlord
QUOTE(Platypus @ May 20 2003, 11:26 AM)
QUOTE(amlord @ May 20 2003, 10:51 AM)
Platypus, the king of calling "ad hominem" and then using ad hominem...hmmm.

Attack the argument, not the source.  You did this to some extent.


To no extent. I've already explained this: when one attempts an appeal to authority, the nature of that authority becomes relevant and questioning it is entirely valid. To say otherwise would be to make argumentum ad verecundiam an unstoppable weapon. There's a much more detailed explanation at http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/a...-authority.html, and another at http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/authorit.html and a third at http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.htm if you're interested in educating yourself.

QUOTE
Many economists feel the dividend tax cut will spur a different sector of growth.


Yeah, in the pockets of wealthy campaign donors, and therefore in the campaign coffers of Bush, Cheney et al. whistling.gif Your appeal to "many economists" is merely a repetition of your earlier fallacy, because opinion among economists is in fact sharply divided regarding whether the dividend tax cut will spur growth. Why don't you tell us who some of these "many economists" are, and why they would make the claim you attribute to them? That would actually be helpful. We could actually spend time discussing the merits of those arguments, instead of arguing about whether they should be taken at face value.

Appealing to authority IS a valid argument. Appealing to anonymous authority (not done here) is not.

You just say "who is this guy?" to refute his argument. That is not a valid position.

John Rutledge, Chief Investment Strategist

The guy is well respected and well published, so his argument is valid.

The Cato Institute is well-balanced and fair, in most people's opinion.
kimpossible
Didnt mean to imply the information that you gave out mspigpen wasnt objective! I was just trying to find more info. I asked for a book, because it being Im in Europe, I pay for my internet time, and dont always have the time to lookup websites.
Google
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(kimpossible @ May 23 2003, 09:27 AM)
Didnt mean to imply the information that you gave out mspigpen wasnt objective! I was just trying to find more info. I asked for a book, because it being Im in Europe, I pay for my internet time, and dont always have the time to lookup websites.

I remember that! I used to type me e mails out ahead of time and then send them all quickly smile.gif

Sorry I don't know of any (objective) books on the tax cuts. I suppose even economists disagree about their effectiveness....Also, like Platypus pointed out, there are so many variables which effect the economy it is hard to pinpoint the cause (and time of the cause) precisely.
kimpossible
True enough, and I dont know much about economics to know exactly what influences what.

One more thing, I heard from a friend who was reading the International Herald Tribune that the US is now requiring citizens living and working outside the US to pay income tax in the US, now this is really just an extension on an old law, but it used to be that is you made over 80000 USD, you had to pay in come tax, and apparently now its even if you make 15000. Is this OK? And Im not sure how right it is; since I dont read the NHT, so if this info is wrong sorry. Just going on hearsay for the moment.

Maybe this belongs in a different thread, but since no one is really responding to this anyways...
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