The Israeli cabinet, in another large step to peace has accepted the Bush Administration's peace plan Peace Plan Accepted

Is this the sign of final peace in the Middle East or is this a hopeless stride?

I can't vote on this one. Given the history of the region it is difficult to be optimistic, but we cannot give up on the possibility of peace.

Given the importance that this advancement would hold for the Bush administration and the advancement of the War on Terror, I believe that their is a good chance for a development here. Both sides need outside assistance in getting peace negotiations back on track.

I don't think a viable, complete plan has been put forward, but I do think the United States will be willing to use many tools of persuasion to get the Sharon government behind a plan.

I nulled my vote.
Why?
Because Palestine is quite unlikely to acccept U.S. plans, after U.S. plans stole their land and turned it into Israel.
If there is to be peace, I don't think the United States will have much to do with it...

I think it was the UN that gave the land to the Israelis. The U.S. just agreed with the decision & POOF....Israelis got free land.

I think the British should be given the most credit (or blame) for the forming of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. You can argue it is US aid that sustains it. Second Wind's sentiment shows why peace is so improbable. There are too may Palestinians that will not be happy with anything less than all of Isreal.

UN resolution suggested creating two independent nations and the Arabs rejected the idea. Israel declared themselves an independent nation and the US and USSR recognized the nation of Israel almost immediately.

Israel then defeated the combined (or rather not very well coordinated) forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and another country that escapes my memory.

I would have to disagree:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200211/1...13_106727.shtml - the date on this article is november 13 2002. they accept the principle of it almost SIX months ago! and again in december http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200212/1...18_108670.shtml

meanwhile, israel still refuses to accept the roadmap as is and insists on some 100 changes to the roadmap. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/Sh...sID=0&listSrc=Y
and
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0305/S00199.htm

from last september:
"Israel today turned down a Palestinian offer to end attacks on civilians as the first stage of a gradual truce." "But the Israeli foreign minister, Shimon Peres, told the Palestinian planning minister, Nabil Shaath, that the proposal "would not be helpful because it would mean in the first phase it is permissible to kill other people," an Israeli statement said.

Palestinian negotiators refer to civilians as those living in Israel, but consider Israeli soldiers and settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip - land the Palestinians want to claim for a future state - to be combatants."
(from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2...,794411,00.html )

though, not all of the israeli gov(12 out 19 in sharons cabinet) are against the roadmap. some have approved it - http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030525_357.html but; http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/mid...w/40582/1/.html

and from what I understand all of israels neighbors (lebanon, syria, jordan egypt) have accepted the road map.

and funny how hamas and islamic jihad (or someone saying their them) attack targets in israel just when it benefits israel. and funny how shin-bet helped found and at least initially funded them (shin bet is the israel's internal security force) also check out the photo on this page a little above a 1/4 down and about 3/4 down.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not want peace. They want all of Isreal.They are two of the major reasons why peace in Palestine will be very difficult.

ok, first i will just give my opinion on it. back some 50 years ago when we helped the jewish people get isreal, did we have no idea what we were doing in the first place or the possible backdraft of it(todays middle east).
if i was in power at that time, no joke, i would have giving them florida or texas or some state, we could keep them safe and at the same time keep the world stable.


now to a response to this, how does a plan plan to erase so much history and death in one quick swipe, if anything i see that it will take u.s military force over a long persiod of time to make any real change and even then it will probally fall apart. sorry to be such a defeatist, but its my stance on it.

This plan won't work until the Arabs stop hating the Jews for being Jewish and the Jews stop building settlements in the west bank.

The British split Palestine between the Jews and Palestinians. The Palestinians attacked Isreal. They lost and the Jordanians stole their land. I don't see where America comes in.

There seems to be some fuzzy history in this thread as to who is responsible for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It is a complicated situation, so that's perfectly understandable, but I am posting a link from the United Nations website that has a lot of information, including links to the relevant resolutions and maps of the region. I found it very useful.

Question of Palestine

I highly suggest reading the subsections entitled The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem.

Well, I for one think that until the Israelis and the Palestinians realise that the only people who are responsible for the conflict between them are the Israelis and Palestinians themselves, there is little hope for peace.

The most recidivist players in the Northern Irish problem, now largely peaceful (although much low level gang-style violence continues on all sides), tend to be the ones who refer back to ancient history to justify their positions.

By analogy, those in Israel and its environs that lay the blame for today's fighting with the British, the Ottomans, the USA, or the Martians, are less interested in where the blame ends up, and more interested in not taking any of it themselves.

Until both sides admit to the hatefulness of what they are BOTH doing, to themselves and to each other, there is little hope for long term peace. The model of a South African style 'truth and reconciliation commission' could be a valuable one going forward, but for now there just needs to be a two-way ceasefire.

I voted no. I doubt there will ever be peace in that land.

My opinion: If Isreal did all that was required/requested of them (retreat to pre-1967 borders, remove all settlements, release prisioners/refugees, etc etc) they would still be attacked and bombed. Not by the legitimate Pal gov't, but by terror groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Those groups don't care about a Pal state...only the destruction of Isreal and all the jews.

That's gonna put a damper on the peace process....

--cheers

As DP said. There will be peace between Israel and the Palestinians only when one of the two wins a final victory and the other ceases to exist.

There seems to be the fundamental difference of opinion regarding this situation.

Both sides need to work together, but one is not - the Palestinians.

Israel has been actively working on a peace plan for decades. Israel makes the concessions required to mediate a deal, but the Palestinians reject it and blow their kids up instead.

For example, the Palestinians would have got 95% of everything they had before 1967 at the Camp David accords. And they rejected it because Israel would still exist. If someone truly wanted peace, they would take a mediated 95% victory.

Israel is not the one blowing up 8 year olds and their moms. Israel is not the ones harboring terrorists requiring incursions to flush the murderous thugs out (quick - when's the last time a Palestinian turned a Palestinian in and prevented further carnage?). Israel is not occupying 80% of the territory the Palestinians were occupying previous to 1967 (where they allowed that land to be used as a staging area to attack Israel) - like Jordan.

I think Israel has done much more than what is required of them. This is not about "both" sides anymore. This is about Palestinians respecting human life regardless of the race. It's that simple.

This ends when targeting innocent people ends.

I voted Yes because I think this time there is a genuine chance for real progress in the Middle East. But, it is a fleeting chance that will disappear quickly if we (the US) fails to act. The US is the only nation that can bring peace to the Middle East, and that's not a "nationalistic" boast, but rather the result of pragmatic analysis. Right now, the US is at it's peak of political power in the region and it would be a good thing for us to use that power to influence the events there and bring about a peace. So, we produced a "roadmap" and got both sides to basically agree with it, at least in form if not in content and I think we have to apply the diplomatic equivalent of a full court press to push it ahead. That means extreme pressure on Isael and the Palestinians, but also on other nations in the region to stop their interference. The roadmap is just the first step, but the US has to do more, a lot more in the coming days to make this all happen. This time, I really think we can.

right, the great barak offered them 95% of 28% of there homeland. lets forget this offer would have balkanized the west bank, the settlements would have stayed in place, and IDF/IOF troops would have stayed in the west bank.

( http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives...102/030102u.htm )
(Rebuttal of the Apologies for Israel's Crimes)

besides, baraks "generous offer" being a lie, it was illegal. he insisted on keeping the settlements, (against UNSC resolutions) soldiers in west bank(again, against UNSC resolutions) and getting total control of jerusalem, (yet again, against UNSC resolutions) these terms are non-negotiable!
they must pull back to the green line, stop building settlements, leave the ones they have built inside the west bank, and give control over the east half of jerusalem to the palestinians. and let's forget the PA offered a ceasefire against civilians (they consider settlers in the west bank combatants)


they may not specifically target innocents directly, but they have no respect for them and thus bomb apartment buildings to kill one person, blow cars up with carbombs, without regard for innocents, they have done nothing about militant terrorist jewish settlers murdering people (aside from condeming it)- http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/1607908.php- and from http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=775 --

and have even murdered unarmed foreign citizens. (rachel corrie for example- http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...+rachel+corrie)
I'll stop here on this point, before I make my post too long, but leave you with more website- rememeber these children

you mean aside from obeying UN resolutions.

now, think about this, many palestinians see the suicide bombers as the only defense palestine has. they have lived under near total occupation for at least several years. now, if you had no one other than them fighting for you, would you turn the only ones doing so in? I know I wouldn't.

(note: I realize the palestinians are not perfectly innocent, but neither is israel. this can only end when BOTH sides accept responsibility for their action)

What homeland? The Palestinians have been leeches off the back of any country that would have them until they destroyed the area. They've never HAD any homeland and it's not Israel's fault.

Here's a pop quiz....where did all those Jews that created Isreal come from?? From the Palestinian territory!

On May 14, 1948, the Palestinian Jews created their own state of Israel. What happened on May 15, 1948 (the next day)? Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen invaded them! Yee-haw! Praise Allah!

It took 19 months and 1% of their population to win their independence. They did this by fighting soldiers with guns...not by blowing up mommies and their babies.

So, from 1949 to 1967, Egypt and Jordan held all this "homeland" the Palestinians cherish so much, and not once did anybody try to establish a second Palestinian state (the first one became Israel).

So, in 1967, the Palestinian territories were used as a staging area to attack Israel. So, Israel pre-emptively struck in self-defense and took over strategic areas. Jordan took the other 70-80% of what you call their "homeland" and has offered 0% back. Why aren't the Palestinians blowing up THEIR women and children?



He had no choice. If he gives up control of strategic areas, his people die.



That statement is a complete fabrication. This has nothing to do with a disrespect for human life and everything to do with self defense. If what you say was true, they would never have incursions. The Israelis would simply stay where it's safe and launch missiles at suspected sites. Instead, Israeli soldiers put themselves in harm's way to root out the terrorist scumbags.



It's tough to debate someone who supports murdering innocent women and children to get their way.

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!! the UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL has said the MUST withdrawl to 1967 borders, (UNSCr 242 and 338) these are BINDING. they MUST abide by them. also, re: jerusalem: Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital, Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem, Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem", Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".

also, I will admit, that from what you present it does appear that palestinians may not have had their own homeland, but I would like SOURCES. as impartial as possible would be nice (IE no israeli government site, or other pro zionist page)



I will admit I made a slight mistake. I confused a CIA car bomb in beruit for mossad in gaza, my mistake. israel DID however drop a 1 or 2000 (I forget which) into an apartment complex to kill one leader of hamas, thing is that they killed 12 others in the process, mostly women and children, using an american made f16. the meaning of the gaza bombing 12 dead in attack on hamas bush even codemned this attack! ( http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...1018EDT0556.DTL )

on jewish settlers murdering civilians:
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/07/29/33339.html
http://www.jamiat.org.za/palestine/nablus.htm
Palestinians Give US List of Jewish Militants


I never said I support them murdering noncombatants. I said THEY did, and not even all palestinians do. I do not appreciate attacks like this. personally, I think it is stupid, it makes you an easy target for demonization. I think if they must blow themselves up, they should target IDF/IOF, settlers, and gov. officials, not women and children.

israel well can't ask the palestinians to follow the rules if they won't. the roadmap won't work until both sides follow the rules. this means cooperating with UNSC resolutions (israel) and both sides stop killing innocent civilians.

UN Resolution 242 says no such thing.

UN Resolution 242

It does say that to establish a just and everlasting peace in the Middle East (talk about an oxymoron), Israel should withdraw it's armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict (this was in 1967). Besides, I thought there Israeli settlements there - not armed forces unless flushing out homicide bombers. But I could be wrong on that point.

I'm too lazy to look up the other resolutions.

But to your point as to who they blow up, we can agree. If the best they can do is to retaliate against the people responsible for their plight (which in reality, is the Palestinians...but I digress) by blowing themselves up, I could have a little sympathy for them. Unfortunately, they blow innocent Jews up because they hate innocent Jews:

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish...rticle_15.shtml

Look for Israel. In fact, let me know if you find any type of reference whatsoever to Israel in this link.

Lastly:

edited by DaytonRocker for emphasis

That sounds like supporting blowing up innocent women and kids to me.