So, is it natural for humans, or other animals for that matter, to seek out mind altering activities and substances?

I believe there are several natural human drives (in no particular order):

1. Shelter - Without shelter, be it clothes, a cave, or a high-rise apartment, we don't last that long in the elements.
2. Food - Of course we need food.
3. Water - One gets rather thirsty without water.
4. Reproduction - How else would you be here?

This is were most people's lists end.

But mine has a number 5:

The desire to alter one's mental state.

It will come as no surprise to you that intoxication played a roll in this theory.

I was sitting back watching my cat rub himself all over the catnip container when it came to me. My cat wants to get a buzz. He does it all the time. He rubs agains the container, meows at me, and walks over to the scratching pad.

Doesn't this have to be a natural desire? He gets no other reward other than a buzz, and a clean digestive track.

So look at people. Since the beginning of time, we've been trying our hardest to make ourselves feel good. We drink soothing herbs as tea, we have sex for fun, and we indulge in drugs and alcohol.

And we've even been programmed, through our creator or evolution, to get a buzz while attempting reproduction.

So does anyone agree at all, or should I refrain from philosophizing while intoxicated?

Mike

monkeys have ben known to smoke ciggerettes, and dogs drink beer. never looked at it like that bfore ...

First of all, Mike, I think this a very interesting topic you have started here. . .whether you thought of it sober or not.

I think one of the things that makes Humans different from other animals is that we understand what is going on around us to a much higher degree. And one of the consequences of understanding and seeing the "big picture" is that we are forced to deal with the bad feelings that go with that. Life is hard, mean people suck, my neighbor has more money than me, my boyfriend cheated on me, I have to deal with terrible drivers on my way to work and back, etc. . .these are all thoughts that a cat or any other animal never has. Mind altering chemicals are a way to forget about those troubles, if only for a little bit. Not everyone drinks or does drugs, but everyone has a thing they do to gain escape from the worries of the day. Some garden, exercise, play sports, or engross themselves in other tasks that take them away from it all. I feel that Mike is right on a certain level in thinking that this a "natural human drive"; without any form of escape, humans kill themselves, in some instances. I've noticed that the people I meet that engage in mind altering chemicals too much, usually separate themselves from everything involved in reality; they quit their jobs, ignore their children, ignore sex, even. . .and that is when this "natural human drive" becomes tragic.
I don't feel that for other animals that this is a natural need. Mike's cat (and mine too) is simply reacting to a chemical reaction that they have towards catnip. . .is it a need though. . .if you took it away from the cat would they not be able to go on living anymore. . .probably not. Because, they don't have a care in the world. . .they naturally have the state of mind that we, as humans, have to search for through mind altering chemicals. I can't help but wonder if that means that humans have evolved intellectually faster than we are emotionally ready for.

-Kisov

well insanity has risen MUCH higher than ever bfore, starting in the 1900s. but i think animals have stress too, just not the same kind. like that they arent fulfulling all of there instincts, to have sex, or to kill. simple stuff, maybe they are jealous... but then again i doubt the seek refuge with catnip, but maybe.

The number of cases of insanity is directly proportional to the number of psychiatrists and other head-doctors we have out there.

I will reserve my opinion on the original topic until I have had some time to do some research (and maybe get a buzz )

i was talking about ppl flipping there wig, it was extremely rare. now i see crazy ppl everywhere i go, guy who walks everywhere with mirrors on his hat. my best friend takes anti psychotics and quit school and wont work bcuz he is afriad of social situations((living off disibility)). the only time he leaves his house is to see me, my GF is a bit nutty ... but thats bcuz her whole family is. madness is everywhere!! Aiieee!!

the pineal gland is capable of producing two very powerful hallucinogens know as 5MeO-DMT and DMT (usually through light/sensory deprivation)

I find it curious that so many plants exsist and grow in abundance that are mind altering-
reed canary grass for example, grows in 48 46 of the 48 continental states, and contains DMT. giant reed grass contains DMT and harmine (or harmaline) making it orally active (harmaline and harmine are MAOIs, and allow your stomach to take up the DMT) many vines in south america can be made into a drink called ayahausca which contains DMT and Harmaline or harmine, and makes you trip.

san pedro and peruvian torch cactus contain 1-2% mescaline, and peyote (once very abundant) contains 6% mesc. (mescaline is another hallucinogen)

rye, barley and wheat infected with ergot can inflict ergot poisoning, causing: hallucinations (among other symptoms, including possible death) ergot contains a molecule known as LSA, which is a precursor for LSD.
morning glory seeds and haiwian baby woodrose seeds contan LSA as well (1-2% and 6-7% respectively. where ergot is something like 20-25%LSA) MoRGLoR seeds make an excellent cold brew tea BTW, tastes like fruits(with sugar)

mushrooms used to grow on cow poo all over until farmers started feeding them something that made the cow poop infertile for boomers. there are actually two types of shrooms that act as hallucinogens. one is th P. cubenis (among many other psylocibe varieties) the other is the fly agaric (toadstools-red with white spots) both cause hallucinations.

and of course pot grows everwhere. there is a reason it is called WEED. it has been used for 5000 years (at least recorded use is 5000 years) the term assasin comes from hash a product made from cannabis sativa leaves and flowers. I would bet billions of people worldwide "poke smot" native americans (the sioux at least) called it "grass medicine" becuase of it's benifits.

also, as far as insanity goes, I understand. I likely have schizoid, and borderline personality disorders, and know I suffer from bi-polar drepression. (I spent about seven years in treatment centers for anger as well) I refuse to take any pills (well not ANY, I'll take "E" every now and then) I am comfortable with who/what I am. (I also hear voices, though they don't give commands)

Mike [/QUOTE]


Bloody oath...
'Cors it is.............I do my best work under the influence of a few stubbies although no-one else sees it this way




SURPRISE???..........May I call it relief?.

Thank the big Griff I am not alone in this World.
.......Alan puts signature on paper committing himself to become a Trappist monk for 600yrs or death whichever comes first.
Alan cracks just one more stubby while selfishly trying to get a buzz out of catnip by rubbing it on his headache.
Both cats, Napolean and Jasper, are looking at me in a manner that hints of stupidity....me, not them.
Bring back the days when I grew Tomato plants in the back yard and my old Mum watered them and often asked me why NO tomato's grew.
Bring back those days 44yrs ago.

Go for it, TASTE LIFE in all its complexity.

My old boss once said to me............."never trust a person that don't gets intoxicated because he isn't being himself".

Take care you lot.......Alan

Ive seen a commercial of wild animals eating all kinds of stuff and falling around and doing silly things. I think it was used for an 'against' intoxication cause, but appears to me that even animals enjoy getting stoned once and awhile. My cat hangs around real close when anyone is smoking herb, my partner insists she likes it, but she is very mature and can handle herself.

The only problem is...when it becomes a problem and sometimes its hard to tell where that line has changed. When the party becomes no party but habit.....

After youve quit Anything, its so easy to see the folly. Being sober with alot of intoxicated folks or trying to get anything done with a stoner around can be really stressful and try ones patience.

I still think a once a year good hallucinagen, usually shrooms, clears a bunch of cobwebs in my brain and keeps me spiritually current and/or redirects me on my path. Natives use/d these things as ritual for the same result, a connection with higher self or realm. Of course, a sweat lodge ritual with no intoxicants is a real high in and of itself.
Im still hoping for a ritual peyote experience.

This is sooo true .

It has been 'donkeys years' since I smoked pot.
Close to 20yrs but I tried it, liked grog better and have never smoked it since.
( Pot I mean).

Hang on
I smoked 50+ ciggies a day since then and until I had a bit of an accident involving a circular saw and my fingers seven weeks ago.

Guess what?.

I can now count to seven and a half and have no desire to smoke ciggies.
WHY......Dunno.

A traumatic change of perceptions perhaps?.

Or like you said, after youve quit Anything, its so easy to see the folly.

So true...but it is still the individuals choice.

My best to you.......Alan

I sincerely Hope this was NOT a fingers cutting off experience!

Yep, I think seeking a buzz is natural.

Our brains produce natural buzz chemicals, and so we are motivated to do all kinds of things to naturally get the buzz.

Being so gosh awful smart, we have found ways to shortcut the process. But, being so gosh awful smart, we hurt a lot (as has been pointed out). So the shortcuts.

I prefer herb, but my society wants me to do alcohol. My society hates herb. It's not too enamored with me, either. Eh, I go along with this now because they'll crucify me if I don't. Just say no to the slammer.

Anyway, I guess it's okay to drink into stupidity. Not okay to toke into philosophy, music, and nature.

Is *this* attitude natural?

Only in the sense of control, methinketh.

But then, I've been drinking strong coffee

AM... Its totally ok, as long as you can find your keys, sunglasses and whatever else you need to take that ride into the sunset before the sun goes down. LOL!

I would like to at least TRY pot once. When I was younger I never did, and now I can't as long as my husband needs to keep his very top secret clearance. No herb trying, no perusing subversive internet sites, nothing controversial allowed in my life At least I still have my vino!

Mike,

You're not as think as you drunk you are. <hiccup>

Elephants, monkeys and bats have been seen getting drunk on fermenting fruit.

It's natural to escape and loose your inhibitions occasionally.

mrspigpen,

I'll tell yah what the most dangerous buzz is: amphetamine and herb. I was there once, on my 1970 450 Honda chopper (yeah, she was a sweet scooter) running through the valleys and hills of New Mexico, circa 1974, pretty young mama behind, heading for what would turn out to be a great time in the Pecos mountains--rich fat cat party. Who is that biker in the black leather and strange beadwork? How'd *he* get in? It helped to know the daughter of the CEO.

What I felt was that I was invincible. That can quickly lead to death on a motorcycle. So, I stopped doing amphetamine. Speed kills.

Yet, we give our military jet pilots and probably a lot of our service personnel in combat zones amphetamine.

Just say no to--um, nevermind. Don't look, don't think.

Lydia reminds me that she has secret clearance, too. I'm sensitive to that deterrent.

Artemis, that was beautiful

'Cors its natural and the older ya get the more natural it becomes...........I think

That's right! I almost forgot about the amphetamines.

You know what else is crazy? They don't just give them the amphetamines, they give them downers, too, so they can sleep in between the amphetamine rushes. Scary.

Mrs P

Aint that the truth!!!!........

And scary too.....

Care to you........Alan

mrspigpen,

Uppers/downers? Yeesh. Well, I guess waging war has become like being a rock star. It's one gig after another without any chance to get sane in between. Maybe rock star has a few more perks like 1) better pay 2) groupies 3) roadies 4) royalties 5) freedom to quit 6) freedom to start up again 7) adoration beyond all reason 8) picture on the (everyone sing along, now) cover of the Roll-ing Stone!

Al,

Onya

Getting a Buzz = escapism

Not always a bad thing, but VERY bad if not used in severe moderation.

I think escapism is natural, and "getting a buzz" is only one alternative there.

Those who rely on escapism too much lose their sense of reality.

EDIT: I rarely drink, being a responsible family man , but when I do, its usually to excess on purpose. I don't use drugs (although I tried weed once and I have family members that are "burners", the "smoking" mechanic has never been there for me).

Like Mike, psychopharmacologist Ronald K. Siegel (in Intoxication! Life in Pursuit of Artificail Paradise) argues that the need for altered states of awareness consitutes a "fourth drive" - as important as sex, nourishment, and sleep. In his book, he not only makes a case for the importance of intoxication in human culture, but also enumerates a number of instances of willfull intoxication in the animal kingdom.

Ethnobotanist, Giorgio Samorini, goes even further in Animals and Psychedelics: The Natural World and the Instinct to Alter Consciousness. Samorini essentially concludes that animals like to get high. From ants to elephants, hundreds of species of animal repeatedly (and sometimes ritually) ingest consciousness-altering substances (fermented fruit, datura, coca, iboga root, psilocybin, cat nip, the secretions of the lomechusa beetle, etc., etc.) - and those are just the species which have been documented. It stands to reason that this could be a natural impulse in all animals, should such substances occur naturally in their environment. All human cultures, for example, have embraced such substances - with the exception of Eskimos. Siegel cites evidence that Neanderthals got high and makes a case for the Egyptians having learned to brew beer before they learned to bake bread.

Author and educator Edward de Bono has discussed "the value of depatterning in evolutionary development - forcing the mind to break with established routines and habits and so discover new approaches to matters of survival". Samorini concludes that, in the animal kingdom, the heightening of sensory awareness could make predators more effective hunters and prey more elusive targets. Siegel, like Terrence McKenna (in Food of the Gods, et al.), concludes that getting high is actually an evolutionary force. Both suggest that psychoactive substances contribute - or even precipitate - the evolution of human consciousness. In other words, getting a buzz may not only be essential to our survival, but also to our continuing development as a species. Works for me.

It's interesting to speculate that those who oppose the use of such substances might willfully be contributing to our devolution...

Fourth drive? There might be something to that. My knee-jerk reaction was ...Yeah, but it just FEELS good. But then, I eat because it feels good, and sleep because it feels good, ect...

I think Siegel is onto something.

I had to think about this one a while.
It was in my misspent adulthood after the first marriage when I experimented some.
I do think it is natural to seek and get a buzz. It is a ubiquitous shamanic practice. However, shamans don't generally operate high tech machinery. [/B]The responsibility we have toward others to be alert and inimpaired with our judgement supercedes our right to be in and altered state anytime we want. That's where the law comes in. For the sake of my daughter, I only drink the occasional Corona with lime or a nice glass of wine or, very rarely, a strawberry Margarita.

That what separates man from animal, we don't have to react on our thoughts, desires, addictions or feelings. You can get high from exercise, meditation, religion, yoga, martial arts, sex, etc.. I can't understand why anyone would choose to harm their body and destroy their brain cells by using drugs to get high. It is self destruction.

But you're not answering the question - is it natural to seek out a high no matter the means, be it exercize, meditation, drugs or alcohol?

Bayside,



I've been researching wildlife behavior, and by gosh, many animals behave just like humans!

We are not far from the trees. Our opportunities to engage in self-destructive behaviors are more abundant, but animals, when stressed, do a lot of things to self-destruct, too.

However, this is all relative to the amount of stress.

I'm going to reference a book here on interspecies communication:

Animal Talk by Penelope Smith

Now, I know this is a controversial subject, especially when PETA gets into the act. However, if you've ever had pets, you know that animals can get messed up in the head. We have a feral cat that has a huge inferiority complex, but he's come a long ways over the years.

Consider people now. Supposedly we have a lot more free will than animals. As you stated, we can make a choice not to engage in self-destructive behavior, replacing the behavior with constructive activities and thought habits.

But sometimes we need help in doing this. The point is that sometimes animals need help, too. And so, back to the idea that seeking a buzz is natural: Of course it is natural. Can it be self-destructive? Yep. But that is natural as well.

The question then becomes, should we, through legislation, limit nature? Well, we attempt to. We have made murder, which is often a natural rage reaction, illegal (murder II). We have made stealing, which is often a natural greed reaction, illegal. But how far do we take legislation?

We tried to make alcohol illegal, then changed our minds.

So, what really seperates us from the animal worlds is our ability to legislate in an attempt to change behavior. Murder and theft haven't been eliminated, but we still think it is reasonable to keep these laws on the books. Anti-drug laws haven't eliminated the drug problem, and in fact may have made it worse due to profit motivations, and so many of us question the wisdom of retaining these particular laws.

And so, the final questions: Can we use legislation to regulate self-destructive behavior? Are we so sure that using drugs is really self-destructive? Might some level of drug usage be acceptable and even healthy for society?

After all, Prozac is acceptable. Why not marijuana?