It's about time we got this one rolling -

What is the cause of our current ecomonic situation which I see as a mix of Congress spending without a budget, stock losses, job cuts, growing deficit, the not-so-best of times?

I know there is no one specific factor but some weigh more than others. What do all of you think?

Jaime

Well, for one thing, that tax rebate was bad for the economy.

How was the tax rebate bad for the economy?

I took my $300 and spent it. That certainly had to be good for the merchant, right?

And if a lot of people buy a lot of things from a lot of merchants, doesn't that encourage growth?

Mike

that is why supply side economics works. but ive ben worrying about the economy lately, im ussually against this, but i think we need to tax a little more. not just the economy but how we are going to pay for everything, i know we own 1/4 of the worlds wealth, but do we really have that much spending money right now?

Tax a little more?!? You have got to be kidding me. How about our government spends less? When a family doesn't make as much money as they expected they tighten their belts. Our federal government needs to learn to do the same. The tax cut was one of the best things Bush did.

SD-

Tax increases historically have increased short term tax revenues, but decreased long term tax revenues.

When people have a smaller tax burdon, they take home more of their paycheck. When they have more money, they spend more money. And when they spend more money, the government collects more taxes.

Mike

The rebate didn't work because look where we are. I put mine in the bank cuz I knew we were in for it when Dubya was appointed.

Putting your rebate in the bank or spending it is all the same. It'll eventually get recycled back into the economy. When you spend it, it goes into the bank account of the business you dealt with. When you put it in the bank, it goes back out as a form of a loan or company investments.

$600 is just pennies you find in your sofa when you're talking about tax relief. In my opinion, it did very little on the economy, but it did get brownie points for going in the right direction.

If there's one thing that I would say is one major cause of the downturn/recession/depression, it would be greed. Greed from CEOs, stockholders, investors, consumers, politicians. Greed throws out fiscal responsibility, moral values, and social responsibility.

Another cause is self-deception. People ignore the truth and instead delude themselves in fantasies. CEOs think that earnings estimates are great while they are losing money in the billions. Stockholders think they can strike it rich with stocks. Politicians think they have a surplus budget (by extrapolating ridiculous growth rates from the stock bubble). Consumers think they can buy stuff without thinking about eventually having to pay off their loans.

Ostong said:
Putting your rebate in the bank or spending it is all the same. It'll eventually get recycled back into the economy. When you spend it, it goes into the bank account of the business you dealt with. When you put it in the
bank, it goes back out as a form of a loan or company investments.


I know all that Ostong, my point was that I saved my money because I KNEW things would go bad once Bush was installed.

Tax increases historically have increased short term tax revenues, but decreased long term tax revenues.

When people have a smaller tax burdon, they take home more of their paycheck. When they have more money, they spend more money. And when they spend more money, the government collects more taxes.

You could not be more correct Mike. Even now we cannot get a budget through. It is the old "TAX AND SPEND" of the Democrats. The Demos are now charging that money is going to be taken from the Social Security lock box....which we all know is non-existant. It was Lyndon Johnson's administration that took the ss from the independent fund and put it into the general fund in the first place.

Osteng is right in one thing... greed is a problem,. Enron emplyees who put all of their money into Enron stocks were just plain greedy. Common sense tells you better than that. People have to take responsibility for their futures and retirements. SS was not intended to be a retirement fund for everyone. Perhaps this needs a different thread?

Enron emplyees who put all of their money into Enron stocks were just plain greedy say Mouse


Am I hearing you right?? Enron EMPLOYEES were at fault? Now I've heard everything! I don't know
whether to laugh or cry! I wonder who encouraged Enron employees to buy company stock. That sure
is some spin.


What happened to two million jobs? How can people bring home more money when they
have no jobs?

The Democrats spend? Hmmmm I wonder who spent all our surplus.

Madtown
At fault for what? For investing unwisely? Yes. They could have been encouraged to buy a bridge or swampland..noone forced them to do this. Sure jobs were lost..that is another subject.
Democrats Manta:
TAX AND SPEND. It is all they know.

Actually, lost jobs affect the economy, so I think it was appropriate to mention here.

I just heard on CNN "Capitol Gang" that no Republican president has had a balanced budget in
33 years!

So it was the Enron employees greed that help cause the downturn in the economy and not Enron's
big shots that made off with billions? Ohhhhhh

TRIPLE DOWN, that's all they know
and now the economy is slooooow

Wow. Madtown and MOUSE, you two are having a great exchange here. I almost don't want to butt in...

-BUT-

First off, I am certainly not accusing the Enron employees of "ruining" the economy. The fall of Enron likely had an effect, but it wasn't the entire cause. And Enron's fall certainly wasn't caused by non-management employees.

Ever since I was a little kid, I remember hearing a saying -- "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

It needs to be said that I don't invest. I will in the future, but I have a website to fund.

I have, however, listend to talk radio every day for about 6 or seven years. There are many shows that help teach people about money, and they're all free. Bob Brinker's Money Talk, Jim Kramer's Real Money, Suze Orman, The Motly Fool, and the list goes on.

If there's one thing I've learned from these shows, and I've learned a lot, it is that your investments need to be diverse.

Brinker says you should never have more than 5% of your total investments in your employer's stock. And not just your employer's stock, but any stock.

So while I know the Enron employees who have lost money will experience hardships, I also know that they had many opportunities to learn about how best to handle their money.

Greedy management, undereducated employees, and real money: It is an unfortunate situation all the way around. But it wasn't the sole cause of our flailing economy.

Madtown's comments about the CNN show got me thinking.

Is it the President's job to pass the budget?

The budget is a law, passed by Congress, and enacted by the President. So isn't Congress just as, if not more, culpable than the President for a poor economy?



It sure should. Start it up, MOUSE. And I know Jaime has read a couple of books on the subject, so she'll have a lot to say.

Mike

Again Madtown you are taking things out of context. Nowhere did I say that it was the Enron emplyees that caused the downturn in the economy. My point was greed is a great part of it as also it is a great part of our society.
Of course no Republican had a balanced budget. They had a Democratic Congress. They are the ones that control the spending.
TAX AND SPEND.

gain Madtown you are taking things out of context. Nowhere did I say that it was the Enron emplyees
that caused the downturn in the economy. My point was greed is a great part of it as also it is a great
part of our society.
Of course no Republican had a balanced budget. They had a Democratic Congress. They are the ones
that control the spending.
TAX AND SPEND.




Mouse.

The question wasssssss What is the cause of our current ecomonic situation.......
You, Mouse, said part of the cause was greed, citing the Enron employees, did you not?
Therefore you did say that Enron employees were partly responsible for our present economic situation.

A good president would be able to work well with his Congress, whether Dem or Rep and win them over.
The president takes the responsibility, you know, like the Enron employees.

TAX AND SPEND
SAYS MY FRIEND
SHE/HE HAS NOTHING ELSE TO SAY
TAX AND SPEND SHE/HE SAYS ALL DAY
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Mike.
Don't you think you're being a little hard on those employees? Sure they make a mistake investing
all of their money in company stock. Remember, companies encourage employees to do this as
being good loyal employes....the better the company does, the better they will do. Also, it
was probably such an easy way for them to save. Just have the money deducted from their
paycheck before the even saw it....painless.

Sure they could have learned more about investments, but it's not as easy as you think. Two
parents working, kids to drop off at school, baby sitters, work all day, pick up the kids,
maybe a stop at the market, make dinner, home work, maybe drive kids to scouts, ball practice
pick them up after, laundry, baths...on & on. Give them a break. It's harder than you think
I've been there,

And another thing Mouse, you said people should take responsibility for
their own retirement and not depend on social security. Then, when the
poor working people try to do just that by investing in the company they
work for you call them greedy. You say they should not invest all of their
money in one place. Would they be less greedy if they invested the same
amount of money in several places.

Here is what you have said
greed is part of the cause of the slow economy
the Enron employees were greedy for investing so much money in E. stock
they made unwise investments
they should not have invested in only one company
but, they should save money for their retirement
SAVE FOR YOUR RETIREMENT, BUT IF YOU DO YOU ARE GREEDY.....WHAT??

From Mike.
So while I know the Enron employees who have lost money will experience hardships, I also know that they had many opportunities to learn about how best to handle their money.

Greedy management, undereducated employees, and real money: It is an unfortunate situation all the way around. But it wasn't the sole cause of our flailing economy.


Is it the President's job to pass the budget?

Another thought Mike

Did the Enron employees really have many opportunities for investment. When one invests in the company
stock, they are able to invest a small amount at a time, maybe $10.00 per pay check. They couldn't
invest that way in other stocks. It was a way for them to save and they took it.

The president takes the heat for what happens on his watch. That's just the way it is.
The Rep. are trying to take credit for the good economy during Clinton's terms and
blame Clinton for the bad economy during Bush's term.

PS/ You did say that the E. emp had many opportunities to LEARN, but I already covered that.

Please move the Enron discussion over to this thread.

To kind of refocus the discussion here back to the cause of the down economy, I'd like to add that quite a bit of the responsibility falls on the American investing public.

The Internet boom was fueled by, as Mr. Greenspan worded it, "irrational exuberance".

People thought that you couldn't lose in the stock market. The financial shows, magazines, and newspapers led most of the people to think that the prosperity would never buckle, let alone end.

We had companies that never turned a profit with three-digit stock prices -- prices so inflated because people were willing to pay that much. They, of course, weren't worth it.

So once the market started to take a turn, many people realized that they had violated the first rule of investing -- never invest what you can't lose -- and violated the second rule -- buy low, sell high -- to try to correct it.

So now, market confidence is low, largely because the bottom fell out, and as a result, the economy suffers.

Then again, I'm not an economist.

Mike

Two hundred and seventy some jobs lost in Madtown today.
Who's looking out for the economy of this country??

The only people that can MT...the people that drive the economic power of this Nation. The small business owner. My business is going to be the best it has been in over 7 years. If there is a downturn..I can't see it. What I DO see though is alot of people not having the technical know how out on the streets. I have been through 6 tech's in the last 6 months that couldn't do even the simple part of my job.

Darcaine

This is probably a repeat of another posting. Some seem to overlap so here goes.
In my opinion the economy is not that bad, and is on the road to recovery. I completely agree with Mike and what he said about Greenspan and irrational exuberance. It had to adjust.
Unemployment is actually higher than the norm, inflation is good. Much of the problem is doom and gloom spreaders.
Many of the states, in fact, most of the ones with high unemployment have taxes, or laws (enviromental and other) that are not friendly to business. They have to move out of some states to survive.
I would be interested to know how many of the forum members actually have friends who are unemployed.

Consumer Confidence Lowest Since '93
1 hour, 50 minutes ago
By PETER SVENSSON, AP Business Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - Consumer confidence in the economy fell in October to the lowest level since 1993, buffeted by a weak job market and the threat of war with Iraq, a research group said Tuesday.


The Conference Board (news - web sites)'s Consumer Confidence Index (news - web sites) dropped to 79.4, down from 93.7 in September. The fall was much sharper than predicted on Wall Street, where economists had been looking for a reading of 90.0.


It was the fifth straight month of decline for the index, which is widely watched because of the importance of consumer spending for the overall economy.


The index fell past a recent low of 84.9 in November last year, when economic expectations were dampened by a recession and the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.


The last time the index was lower was in November 1993, when it stood at 71.9.


"A weak labor market, the threat of military action in Iraq, and a prolonged decline in the financial markets have clearly dampened both consumers' confidence and their expectations for the near future," said Lynn Franco, who heads the Conference Board's Consumer Research Center.


The Conference Board's index is based on a monthly survey of about 5,000 U.S. households. It stood at 100 in its base year, 1985.


Respondents rating current business conditions as "bad" increased to 27.6 percent from 23.8 percent last month, while those saying conditions were "good" decreased to 15.6 percent from 18.5 percent.


The percentage saying jobs were hard to get rose to 27.3 percent from 25.4 percent.

Tax Relief

Thank you suckers... Get your thank you suckers...
Hand out suckers to the lower 99%!


Fellow Billionaires:

This past year has been very good for us. We and the rest of the top 1% got more than $50,000 each in tax cuts from the feds! That hasn't really helped the faltering economy of course, but not to worry - that just means we'll get even more tax cuts in the name of economic stimulus...

Boy, our investments in politicians are paying off big aren't they? But as principled Billionaires we should recognize that we owe some of the credit to the lower 99%, who have continued to stand behind (way behind) our tax relief plan all along.

We feel it's time we thanked those common Americans for their support throughout these grand years, and nothing says thanks better than a sucker from your favorite candy store, right? So join us as we show those people some gratitude by handing out suckers in places they frequent most - shopping centers, football games, unemployment lines, whereever. It'll brighten their day, and make yours even brighter, so everyone wins! Sometimes it just takes a good sucker to really stimulate things...

Your in wealth,

Rob R. Baron
Billionaires for Bush

These are meaningless articles by writers. You can find them to defend any stance you take.
I would still like answers to my questions.

Well then, one can just say that any articles they don't agree with are meaningles. The second one was sort of a joke, but there is some truth in it.


Unemployment is actually higher than the norm, inflation is good. Much of the problem is doom and gloom spreaders.
Many of the states, in fact, most of the ones with high unemployment have taxes, or laws (enviromental and other) that are not friendly to business. They have to move out of some states to survive

Where did you get the above info? I could say it is meaningless because I don't agree with it. Did the states with high unemployment just acquire those taxes and laws since Bush? We have a lot of unemployment since Bush.

To answer your question: I know a retired fellow, age 75, who was in private business and thanks to the stock mkt and other investments that are not working out so well, (since Bush) he has to work part time to pay his health insurance. He doesn't know how long he can keep working.

Many retirees are in bad shape because their pensions are invested in stock (by their past employers )and their monthly checks are now much less than they were depending on.

Don't tell me it was their fault for not planning.

I happen to live in a state that has low unemployment. I know I could walk out of my house and pick up 4 or 5 jobs just like that! But, what kind of jobs? At this time of my life I really don't need benefits, but a younger person does

BTW, My state is not friendly to business and is one of the top tax collectors. My city has almost no industry.

MT

These figures are put out by The United States Government and are availBTW, My state is not friendly to business and is one of the top tax collectors. My city has almost no industry.
.



Ok I won't since you seem not to want to hear what others have to say. this is several times you have told to say or not say something. Right. talk to yourself then.

Yours is a high tax, business unfriendly city. The state is not all that bad. I know you wrote about loss of jobs in Madison, and I know Rayovac had to lay off a bunch, and move to survive. Such a shame. Is any of Oscar Myers there any longer?
I heard you say pleanty about Bush even though we know the recession was caused by Clinton and his gang, and Bush helped with the Tax breaks.
Still you continue. Please offer a solution from your side then instead of just shooting down others who try.

Darcaine,
You are right on track. Small business, in fact business is what we need to drive the economy and create jobs.
Don't you find it odd that we[B][U]never hear any ideas or plansfrom any of the democrats? I sure do. As a business person you must also. Your must have great opinions on health benifits also.

[QUOTE=MOUSE,Oct 30 2002, 12:21 AM][QUOTE=Madtown,Oct 29 2002, 08:02 PM]



These figures are put out by The United States Government and are availBTW, My state is not friendly to business and is one of the top tax collectors. My city has almost no industry.
.
[QUOTE]Don't tell me it was their fault for not planning[/QUOTE]

Ok I won't since you seem not to want to hear what others have to say. this is several times you have told to say or not say something. Right. talk to yourself then.

Yours is a high tax, business unfriendly city. The state is not all that bad. I know you wrote about loss of jobs in Madison, and I know Rayovac had to lay off a bunch, and move to survive. Such a shame. Is any of Oscar Myers there any longer?
I heard you say pleanty about Bush even though we know the recession was caused by Clinton and his gang, and Bush helped with the Tax breaks.
Still you continue. Please offer a solution from your side then instead of just shooting down others who try.[/QUOTE]

I said don't tell me these people did not plan b/c they did plan. They have no control over how their pension plans are invested.

I was pointing out that my city is not business friendly ( and neither is my state, especially) and we are a high tax city and state, yet we have low unemployment at this time, so that shoots down your explanation of why some states have high unemployment. At least in this case.

There is very little going on at Oscar Meyers. I told you we have almost no industry here. Part of the reason is we don't give businesses a big tax break. They have to pay their fair share here like anyone else. Still, there is low unemployment here, that is if I can believe the paper.

(Please offer a solution from your side then instead of just shooting down others )(who try. )

I have reread your posts...think I got them all, but I don't see where you have offered any solution.

Darcaine thinks small business will do the trick...hope he's right. People better get busy and start opening new businesses fast then.
I have no solution, that's why I'm not the president.

I have had to ask Darcaine several times not to call me names. Other than that I don't think I have told anyone what they should not say.

As far as your figures go, the US Government is as good as anybody when it comes to manipulating figures. Who really knows?

One thing I do know is that we had 8 good years under Clinton and his gang. We had a surplus also. Now what do we have? Well,the big shots probably still have their $50,000 refund.

[quote=Madtown,Oct 30 2002, 01:38 AM][QUOTE=MOUSE,Oct 30 2002, 12:21 AM][QUOTE=Madtown,Oct 29 2002, 08:02 PM]



These figures are put out by The United States Government and are availBTW, My state is not friendly to business and is one of the top tax collectors. My city has almost no industry.
.
[QUOTE]Don't tell me it was their fault for not planning[/QUOTE]

Ok I won't since you seem not to want to hear what others have to say. this is several times you have told to say or not say something. Right. talk to yourself then.

Yours is a high tax, business unfriendly city. The state is not all that bad. I know you wrote about loss of jobs in Madison, and I know Rayovac had to lay off a bunch, and move to survive. Such a shame. Is any of Oscar Myers there any longer?
I heard you say pleanty about Bush even though we know the recession was caused by Clinton and his gang, and Bush helped with the Tax breaks.
Still you continue. Please offer a solution from your side then instead of just shooting down others who try.[/QUOTE]

I said don't tell me these people did not plan b/c they did plan. They have no control over how their pension plans are invested.

I was pointing out that my city is not business friendly ( and neither is my state, especially) and we are a high tax city and state, yet we have low unemployment at this time, so that shoots down your explanation of why some states have high unemployment. At least in this case.

There is very little going on at Oscar Meyers. I told you we have almost no industry here. Part of the reason is we don't give businesses a big tax break. They have to pay their fair share here like anyone else. Still, there is low unemployment here, that is if I can believe the paper.

(Please offer a solution from your side then instead of just shooting down others )(who try. )

I have reread your posts...think I got them all, but I don't see where you have offered any solution.

Darcaine thinks small business will do the trick...hope he's right. People better get busy and start opening new businesses fast then.
I have no solution, that's why I'm not the president.

I have had to ask Darcaine several times not to call me names. Other than that I don't think I have told anyone what they should not say.

As far as your figures go, the US Government is as good as anybody when it comes to manipulating figures. Who really knows?

One thing I do know is that we had 8 good years under Clinton and his gang. We had a surplus also. Now what do we have? Well,the big shots probably still have their $50,000 refund.










[/quote]
MT...have I called you names lately? The problem with you Dems is that you have absolutely no clue on how this Nation's economy actually works much less on who is paying taxes. You keep saying tax breaks for the rich...I would counter that argument with "tax breaks for those people who pay taxes." If you are making 20k or less a year you pay NO taxes...none nada...zero. So..Riddle me this Batman....WTH can you give a tax break to the poor when they pay NOTHING into the system?

Darcaine

Remember this?

MT...have I called you names lately? The problem with you Dems is that you have absolutely no clue on how this Nation's economy actually works much less on who is paying taxes. You keep saying tax breaks for the rich...I would counter that argument with "tax breaks for those people who pay taxes." If you are making 20k or less a year you pay NO taxes...none nada...zero. So..Riddle me this Batman....WTH can you give a tax break to the poor when they pay NOTHING into the system?

Darcaine

Please don't call me Batman. Thank you.

God help you if you are mean enough to want to tax those making 20k or less per year.

You could always drop down into their income slot and then you could pay none,nada...zero.

Mouse.

Yes??

So..MT how do ya give a tax break to those not paying taxes?

Darcaine

Darceine,

Nowhere did I mention a tax break for those paying no taxes.

MT

I know..I asked a simple question. You Dems tote this as a big deal.

Darcaine

Darcaine.

I know a lot of "Dems" and I never ever head any of them, including myself, ask for a tax cut for the very poor who pay no taxes.

However, there is really no one who doesn't pay some sort of tax, be it payroll tax, sales tax, license tax etc.

M.T.

So, do you think someone who makes say 30k a year is entitled to a tax break?

Darcaine

George W is the one who thought we all needed a tax break. The problem is that the more money you had the bigger your refund was.

M.T.

It is hard to tell who is telling what to who here, but to answer MT. My suggestions were:
Tort reform, permanent tax cuts, faith based initiatives...right down President Bush's programs. Small business must be encouraged because that is what creates jobs and jobs are what this economy needs.
First you complain because jobs are cut and then you say there is no unemployment in your city. Which is it?
One of the reasons Wis. doesn't have a lot of unemployment is because Tommy Thompson did such a great
job.
Darcaine:
I think 30K should get a tax cut!

He did such a great job that we are one of the highest taxed states in the nation.

All in all though, he was a pretty good governor.

MT

Exactly my point. Without industry to drive the ecomony and create jobs you have to have high taxes. If your state is unfriendly to industry that is the way it goes. I know there is some industry in the state, and in Madison the university and government pretty much take care of it.
Many of the jobs have left the rust belt and gone to the south because it is cheaper to build, say auto assembly plants, there. One reason is taxes, another is unions. Unions started out being a very good thing, but became corrupt along with making unreasonable demands.

And my point is that having a Republican Governor, does not necessarily mean lower taxes.

We, here in the "rust belt" are living well, high taxes and all. Let the south have the industry. We like our clean, healthy, low crime cities.

MT

The South happily obliges.

And they'll be calling on the Yanks to run the businesses for them, as they are doing now.

Now you can add the last word and find someone else to nag. You have made this forum not fun at all. I like to discuss and even be found wrong. You are a sniper and must be a very insecure person.
Have a happy Americas Debate

It seems to me that there are people on this forum, that just want everyone to agree with them or they'll take their marbles and go home.

MT