And my point is that you can be as peaceful as you want to be but sooner or later events WILL most certainly arise that lead to fighting. And what is wrong with that Somethings are worth fighting for. Life, Liberty, Happiness...I would fight to the death for these things and the fact that some consider war to be "wrong" doesn't make me any less committed to my personal freedoms. I'll tangle with anyone that would usurp my rights...in war, in politics, anytime anywhere! What is wrong about being a willing party to war in life or death to defend the freedoms and people you love

But the real question is about the frenchies.....and people ask me, "Johnny Boy, Why do you hate the french?" And I say, "people, why should I like a group of people that I don't?" This is America and people don't like others and no one can force me to do so. So now I raise two very good questions.

Why should I like the french

Why should I like anyone that I don't like

If the french can have an anti-semetic view and an anti-American view, Why can't I have an anti-french view

Johnlocke



Well you asked three, so which one is the bad question?




I don't know. But why should you dislike them?




This is the same queestion as the first, so I guess this is the bad one...




Because the French don't have have these views. SOME French people do, but the majority, like in most other nations are just ordinary people going about their business like every one else.

Many Germans also have a strong sense of anti Americanism, and so do many English, and many Danes. An awful lot of Russians are deeply sceptical about the Americans and the South Koreans hold mass demonstrations against US policy.

Why do you single out the French when there are so many nations who have people voicing similar sentiments?

I have presented way too much proof as to why I hate the french...That'll never change. What do you want me to say? They're practically socialists and they are rude and racist not just as people, but as a government. That is the evidence I have seen and when their government apologizes to ours, I'll probably forgive them.

And I still haven't completely forgiven the Germans for WW2 yet...I like the danes though...but if their government says anything bad about the US....I'll hate them too.

Apologise for what?

PRACTICALLY SOCIALIST? Not nearly as much as the Northern countries(Sweden, Norway, Denmark..maybe Finland, I dont know much about them). But the Danes are OK, eh? Even though they spend the most on national healthcare than any other European nation. How ridiculous.

And the french are rude and racist as a people?! This is even more ridiculous. As I happen to live in France for the time being, I have actually noticed a wonderful acceptance of diversity here. There are SO many different types of food, and so many markets where you can buy just about whatever you want (aside from guns and drugs) for a good price. Everyone seems to complain about the French, but my experience here has been nothing but great, and I can hardly speak French. (Im getting better though)

What I thought was actually really good about France, even its bizarre, is that when I flew into Paris they just looked at my passport. No making sure I had a visa, no stamp, just looked at my passport. And they did that for EVERYONE on the flight (unless you had items to declare). There werent customs officials hanging out trying to go through your luggage. Thats RUDE AND RACIST?

Lets compare to the US, where they are super strict about your passports and visas. If you happen to walk the wrong way, thats enough for US immigration to go through all your personal belongings.

I happen to think its rude to hate a whole group of people based on GROUP actions. Because in the end, there are rude people wherever you go, it doesnt matter if its France, Russia or the US. But because some people are rude, or because some people arent, its not because of the country they live in.

Kimpossible

The difference of course is that Denmark supported US foreign policy with regards to Iraq.... So we are the good nice friendly socialists...

Great name by the way

Really, why are we hating France? Because they disagree with us? Because they have ties with Iraq? Because they are cowards? WHY?

Well lets go back to WW2. When Germany invaded France the government may have caved in, but the people did not. The French Resistance fought the German invaders in the street and as they were marching in. They also attempted assasinations on German officers etc. The French Resistance used many of the same tactics as the American rebels did in the Revolutionary War. And like us, they attacked thier fellow countrymen for even looking like they were supporting Germany.

And what about France disagreeing with us and having relations with Iraq? Well according to Time Magazine, the French have been very supporful in our War on Terror. They have gone after suspected terrorists and sleeper cells in thier country as we have in ours. And according to the book Bush At War (a book written by a reporter detailing the events in the White House in the first hundred days after Sept. 11) the French even offered to help in the war in Afghanistan and we didn't accept!!! So you can't say the French didn't offer to help us.

Now let's look at the French ties with Iraq. It's true that France has oil deals and such with Iraq, but then again so do many other nations. The Bushes were great friends with the Bin Laden's before the 9-11 attacks (think oil)! And guess who helped fund Iraq and give it its weapon arsenal, along with the Brits and Russians; we did! America helped arm Iraq with conventional and unconventional weaponry during its war with Iran! We also didn't care when Iraq used gas on the Iranians either.

I'm a proud American but I really think that this anti-French deal really doesn't make sense.

Well, first of all, we have said why we dislike the French throughout this thread. I for one, do not care about WW II, this is not WWII. And again, it is not the fact that they disagree with us, it is the blatently obvious reason why they are disagreeing with us. $$$$ And the fact that they are threatening other countries doesn't help either.

CP

Conservpat.

Does it mean anything to you that today... or rather yesterday since its 3 am here... whilst Iraqi's are still without any form of government (3 months since the war 'ended'), whilst Iraqi 'freedom fighters' shoot at and kill British and American soldiers and whilst Saddam Hussein and his sons are still at large, an American company began pumping Iraqi oil out of that nation, via Turkey, into a tanker ship waiting in the mediterranean sea?

If France only has the one motive.... $$$$

Can you list any American motives which have taken precedence over $$$$ ?

Also, can you explain why that oil was sold in dollars when Iraq's pre war decision (like Iran's) was to sell its oils in Euro's and thus make more money for Iraq?

Do you believe that to the victor go the spoils?

editted for spelling...

Iraq Awards 1st Post-War Oil Tender
moif: The US isn't exactly hogging all the $$$$$ Maybe it wasn't all about the money...
That said I believe hating France is wrong. Their foreign policy is flawed, but it is better to discuss that directly than make generalizations about the people of France.

turnea

I'm actually not saying that the US is hogging the dollars. I'm only questioning CP's earlier statement about France's motives when you consider what has happened with regards to America's stated aims, as opposed to actual events.

Personally I don't really care that America makes a profit from the war in Iraq. Just as long as the people of Iraq get a serious share in that profits. (Whether they will or not, remains to be seen... )

I don't believe France's motives are any different from America's. They both want the oil. They both want regional control and they both know the other is in the way.
America will win this round of course because they are bigger and stronger, but I think France is also preparing the way for the EU which, (I believe, that they believe) will be able to challenge the USA in the future. In order for that to happen as soon as possible though, they need regional control (by which I'm talking about which currency is used to buy oil) of the middle east.

What is also blatantly obvious is the U.S. govt.'s reason for wanting to go to war with Iraq in the first place...$$$$.

This is calling the pot calling the kettle black now isnt it? Like the US didnt threaten other countries, and like there is absolutely no tie to $$$$ with the war on Iraq?

God forbid that France actually has some moral reason for not supporting the war, especially since all France really asked for was some proof that Saddam Hussien had weapons of mass destruction, and the Bush Admin. couldnt even come up with that.

Could we all please spell out the word money? It's getting really annoying seeing $$$$$

Who have we threatened? Definently never heard of anything like that. And also, NuMarx, considering the fact that France is among the top 3 trading partners of Iraq, and the US of A isn't close to that top 3, wouldn't you think that the French have more "incentive" than the US.

CP

Not any more. The war ended that. Now the "US of A" is Iraq's number one trading partner. Oh wait...that is to say that we're not really trading anything for their oil except chaos, disorder, imperialism, and martial law.

Turnea (just 6 short posts ago) negated the assumption that we are Iraq's "new number one trading partner".

That's a load of crap (pardon my french )

They're no more rude and racist than we are. I was over there hours ago. Been for a while. I didn't hear a single anti-american comment, or see any stupid thing like freedom fries. They don't call things like McDonalds "Freedom Foods." There were ads all over the place for trips to america and for student exchange programs and the like. Only one person there was rude about americans that I saw, and that was because an american family bid higher than he on a furniture item. Americans go around all the time slandering the French. In respect of that, I would rather be associated with the French than with the disgraceful behavior of thousands of americans.

And we have explained our reasons for disliking the French [and it isn't slander, what we're saying is true, i.e the threats, bribes ect.]. Aren't these reasons justifiable.

CP

Are you suggesting that our government hasn't been involved in bribery scandals? Think again. Just look at our nation's history. And as for threats, what do you think we were doing to Iraq? Buying them ice cream?

Giving money for countries that would help us in the war was rembursing them for any losses that their economy might suffer. As to what we are doing in Iraq, what are you talking about? Who are we threatening there, terrorists? That's horrible. Are we threatening SH, God, what's wrong with us. We aren't threatening any innocent countries, especially in Iraq, what are you talking about AGB?

CP

Did I say that reimbursing countries was bribery? Of course not! I was pointing out our nation's scandalous history. Hussein wasn't a known terrorist. He was known as a bad leader. The world has plenty of those, but we don't threaten them. And whereas it may not be current, look back in our history again, we threatened people all the time. So what does it matter? Just because France is doing it now, and we did it back then doesn't mean anything at all.

Excuse me? SH not a known terrorist. Are you kidding me? A bad leader? People call Bush a bad leader. SH has gassed his own people, he enjoys watching tapes of political dissenters being tortured, their wives being raped, and their children being killed. That is not a bad leader, that is a terrorist regeme. Threaten other countries, what are you talking about, when have we threatened an innocent country?

CP

Take a good look at our nation's history of expansionism. Ever hear of the war hawks? How about the French-Indian war? When the south seceded, boom! SH didn't wage a war on us, we attacked first. And the things you named are characteristics of bad leadership. By the laws he set, all of that was right. It's when he violates laws and does such things that it becomes terrorism. It's called threatning a country when it's over their own laws and governmental system, not over what they did to us, (because they didn't do anything), and cruel acts that aren't terrorism nonetheless.

Oy vey! I don't know where to start. We have taken part of one war for the sake of expanding, that would be the war against Mexico. The French-Indian War? What does this have anything to do with America? It was between the French, the Indians and the British, America wasn't even independent yet. Almost every country goes through a civil war, what does that have to do with anything? Next, no, bad leadership is lying under oath, having an afair while residing as President, ect. SH is the head of a terrorist regeme, it is a fact, case closed. He establishes power through fear, and terror. We didn't go to war because of what SH was doing to his citizens, he was a threat to US security. So far everything you said has been false. Terrorism is not only global, it can be domestic also [Timothy McVeigh, for example] SH is a terrorist. That's why we went after him. The French didn't because they have too much financial interest in Iraq, that's why I don't like the French gov't.

CP

Did you listen to anything I said? What SH did wasn't terrorism! He was obeying every rule he had in his government! He made the rules! So naturally, he could twist them how he wanted to. And Saddam wasn't a threat to us. He hasn't been for years. The last time we were even sure he had WMD's was 1998. And governing people with terror doesn't make you a terrorist! Was George Washington a terrorist? He put down the Whiskey Rebellion during one of his terms by scaring all the rebels by flaunting military authority, giving them the fear, and the reality of death. Was Andrew Jackson a terrorist? He stopped rebellious activities in SC during his presidency by once again scaring them with the fear of death. In the French-Indian war we were although not officially considered a seperate body, practically one. And our government was part of Britain's, our country at the time. We went to war with France and threatened them because we wanted the land that they had in the ohio river valley.

Just because it wasn't illeagal in his country doesn't mean it isn't terrorism. Terrorism: : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. [Webster dictionary] This is exactly what SH does. As for WMD's, do you think he got rid of them? That is however for another thread. Governing people with terror doesn't make you a terrorist, are you SERIOUS? Look at the two words, Terrorist: One who administers terror. So... yes, SH is a terrorist, by your, and Webster's definition. This really is a ridiculous arguement, of course we threatend France during our war, we were at war with them, it isn't all ice cream and cherries when you're at war with a country. I'll now use what you just said against you, Napoleon threatened Russia to give up their land before invading them, what a hypocrite, right?

CP

Mrs Pigpen

I seem to have become invisible around here, but I'll post this anyways...



Really?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...L&type=business

Well, I don't seem to remember myself saying that France had never threatened any countries, but hey, who would expect me to know what I said, right? My point is that if Saddam is/was a terrorist, we have been terrorists too, as well as France and every other country in the world. So, why single out France for threatning countries and making bribes? Every government in the world has done that by now, so once more, why the heck are you singling out France? Why not start a crusade against your own government?

I've already said why the gov't of the US is acting morally, and why the French gov't isn't. You actually have not proven to me that the US gov't has been terrorists, and, hypothetically, if they have, it was over 200 years ago.

CP

ConservPat

Thats all well and good, but France didn't do any of those things. France disagreed with US policy. Thats all France did.

They don't deserve the treatment they have recieved from the USA.

Come on moif, France has threatend other countries, my links prove that, France did have financial companionship with SH, that too was proven by links, France is guilty as charged.

CP

Pat, answer the question: Why single out France for threatning other countries?

Tons of other countires have done the same thing. It's human nature to do such things. WHY SINGLEW OUT FRANCE?

Conservpat



Ever hear of Vietnam? ...or the Shah of Iran?

I'm not, I dislike Germany just as much. For the same reasons mentioned before. Moif, what about those countries?

CP

Actually if you look at all the postings where I have sited for my arguments throughout several threads.. you'll find that it is quite true and to say it is not is to ignore. And to ignore is to remain ignorant. When you look at any country under a microscope all you will see is the dirt that stains their history....just like the life of any man. So it is important not to judge people by what they say so much as their actions and under the microscope....all are filthy. But filthy men (as all men are) have been capable over the millenia of great acts of selfless kindness and courageous spirit has shown through. Just not in france

I see...and what country was it that built and gave the U.S. the Statue of Liberty? Oh yeah, France. And what country came to our aid during the Revolution to help drive the British from the colonies? Oh yeah, France.

Moif,



Turnea’s article indicates that only one US company (Chevron Texaco) received a contract, which was for only 4 million barrels out of 10 total. This hardly qualifies the US as the ‘number one trading partner’. Europe received 5.5...Your article confirms exactly the same thing.



Is there something I’m missing?


I guess I should bring up something to remain on topic. Oh, yes, France...I remember eating pizza at a restaurant with a friend there. She was about halfway through when she noticed that a hair, which looked remarkably and unmistakably like a pubic hair, was on her slice of pizza. We brought it to the attention of the waiter, and he sort of lifted his head up, shrugged and turned away. We insisted on our money back. He refused. We insisted on her money back. Refused, again. Eventually, after making an extremely loud and vocal fuss, they returned half of her money, because she had eaten half the pizza. That pretty much sums up my experience (and opinion) of France.

So, out of 10 million, the U.S. gets 4 and 5.5 is divided up by the other five European companies. Well, if my math is correct, the U.S. is number one. No other country can get as much as we'll be getting if that 5.5 is divided up by the other five. Yes...I suppose that does make us number one then.

I think we owe a lot to France...our independence for one thing. We have a lot of things in common with them. They are an important ally in Afgahnistan. They saved American lives in the Congo and Liberia. Their cooperation and Intelligence is vitally important in our undisputed need to hunt down Al Queada cells.

I respect their decision regarding the invasion and occupation of Iraq and wish we had considered their arguments...and the arguments from the rest of the international community but we didn't and it's no use blaming France for our own diplomatic mistakes with the UN. I commend their diplomacy and hope that ours will some day be just as good, if not better.

I also commend their attempts at reconciliation in the face of so much US contempt, immaturity, and baseless arrogance. If any of the French are reading this I hope they keep in mind that, contrary to what they may have heard, American's do not all speak with one voice regarding Iraq, France, or US foreign policy.

Conservpat



I'm sorry CP, you have me at a disadvantage. What about them?


Mrs Pigpen



Well NuMarx beat me to it, but I would also like to point out that european companies may have been in the bidding, and received generous contracts, but the deal is not about amounts of oil, but about currency. The EU nations are now forced, once again, to use US currency to buy oil. So you see, the 'new world order' is actually the same old order as it was before. Mr Bush's war in Iraq, has brought back the status quo and America is once more top dog.

Is it fair trade, or good business for European countries to have to buy oil from the middle east in the currency of a third party? Indeed, why should the EU prop up the US economy in this fashion? We get nothing out of this deal, and neither do the oil producers.




No... I don't think so. All arguments are subject to interpretation, and you may just as equally be right in your opinion as I may be in mine. I don't know all the facts, which is why I debate the issue. But what I do know leads me to question what I see. Hopefully, this will not lead to animosity.


I feel that France has been made a scape goat to deflect American attention, and frustration, away from the failings of the Bush administration.

I also feel that much of the responsibility for that lies on Donald Rumsfeld's immature comments regarding 'Old' Europe as opposed to 'New' Europe.
And I suspect that many Americans are not even aware of how their nation is projecting itself to its allies in these times.
Only yesterday for example, I read that George W Bush, demanded Europe buy GM food.

Now I don't know how you Americans feel about such things, but I suspect that if Jaques Chirac demanded Americans consume a radically new French food, the full effects of which were not understood properly by scientists, then many of you would not look upon him (Chirac) kindly.

It is my understanding that in order for international relations to work, Each country must respect the others.
As it is today, Europe in General, and France in particular gets no respect from America. US politicians seem to have forgotten that Europe does not belong to the USA, that the cold war did not grant American companies carte blanche in our nations and that we are not to be commanded by an American president.

editted for spelling

With a population of 59 million in France, and 280million here, France is receiving 2.3 times the amount of oil, per capita, that we are.


Moif, I don't know much about economics, so I don't really understand your concerns regarding the currency. If the exchange rate to US dollars is good for the Euro, and it is, doesn't that work to Europe's advantage?

Given, but that doesn't have anything to do with why we don't like them. Yes, they have helped us in the past, as we have helped them, the past should not matter, we are talking about the present.

CP

Mrs Pigpen



Some how I don't think the average Joe is going to be having a share in the oil profits...




Allow me to provide you with an article that I found most informative;

http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm

Oh, come on - that logic demands that there is no reason to hate France because their trade dealings with Saddam, their threatened blocking of a second UN resolution (which never happened because the US and UK "bottled it", to use English vernacular), and their crass threats to prospective EU member states all happened in the past, too.

Maybe not directly, but (it seems to me, although as I've mentioned I'm not an expert) in terms of economic impact, the difference is huge. 2.3 times the amount of oil per capita, for a country whose GDP is 26,000 per capita, as compared to ours, with a GDP of 35,000 per capita.
Please understand that I am not arguing on the behalf that our motives were completely 'pure'. I am arguing against the assumptions of many posters that we were entirely greedy, and France's motivation was pure. Looking at even post- war figures, it is evident that France had a much more vested economical interest in backing Iraq than we did in overthrowing that regime.

BTW...Thanks for the link, Moif. I am still reading, but it is very interesting and illuminating.

Mrs Pigpen

With regards to motivation, then I agree you with you. I don't think France's motivations were any less self serving than America's. I think the difference between the two nations is actually very small...

Moif,
Actually since france made so much off it's citizens and in resale of that oil, the french government actually made quite a bit of money, and as socialists passed it around within their goveernment agencies.... hence the french people undoubtedly saw much of the oil profits. Perhaps now the french's taxes will go from an average 55% to 60-70% average of what a person makes. At that point you might as well close down that psuedo-capitolistic socialism and call it a communism.

Julian, come on, the War for American Independence happened 200+ years. What the French did, happened over the last year, there is no connection.

CP

But saving American butt's in Liberia and the Congo is more in the present than our argument over the Iraqi war.