Oh Lord! Can we please get over who has helped who. We could be going back and forth for years. How does the fact that France has helped us out in the past exempt them from public critisism when they do something obviously immoral?

CP

What does it matter with the time difference? You might as well say then that we still belong to Britain, because the war was 200 years ago. Or that we don't have to listen to our government, because it was established 200 years ago. The point is that we received help that was crucial to our very lives. It was crucial to yours, mine, and people all over the world in places like France and Russia.

I guess I don't follow. We can hold grudges for disagreements and perceived disloyalties but who cares about any goodwill or help that's ever been given?

And I don't think the word 'immoral' is useful for this argument since morals are completely subjective and will not always be shared by any two countries.

OK, I'm back in this thread. I see CP et al. are still dissin' the French.

Let's make believe that CP wasn't arguing against France:



Kinda makes the French and the Americans a WHOLE lot like each other. In other words, we dislike in them the things that they dislike in US.

As Jesus said, [Maybe] we should cast the beam out of our own eye before we criticize the mote in our neighbor's eye.

(Edited for emoticons)

And I'm still not exactly sure what it is that France is supposed to have done that was so very bad... other than disagree with America's course of action...

Why, the French industries were "dealing" with Saddam Hussein. This makes the French evil.

Just like the Americans. Hewlett-Packard, Proctor & Gamble, Kodak - ship products to Dubai, where "subsidiaries" re-export their goods to Iran.

Michael Beck, an expert on sanctions at the U of Georgia:


GE is providing four hydroelectric generators to Iran through a Canadian subsidiary, GE Hydro.

A subsidiary of Halliburton is building a $228 million fertilizer plant in Iran.

Frank Gaffney, president of the conservative Center for Security Policy, says


So what was it the French were doing again?

***source - the latest issue of Mother Jones (July-August 2003), "Sidestepping Sanctions," by Michael Scherer

[quote=johnlocke,Jun 26 2003, 07:22 PM] [QUOTE]
Actually if you look at all the postings where I have sited for my arguments throughout several threads.. you'll find that it is quite true and to say it is not is to ignore. And to ignore is to remain ignorant. When you look at any country under a microscope all you will see is the dirt that stains their history....just like the life of any man. So it is important not to judge people by what they say so much as their actions and under the microscope....all are filthy. But filthy men (as all men are) have been capable over the millenia of great acts of selfless kindness and courageous spirit has shown through. Just not in france [/quote]
Oh because you have read a few articles about France, that means everything in them is true, while the people who have experience with the French and in France dont know anything? What a load of crap. And only the non-french can commit acts of selflessness and bravery? Please. The French are WAY more compassionate than the US, as a government. Did you know its against the law to kick someone out of their home during the months of winter, because they dont want anyone freezing on the street? Last year in Paris, they had a group of workers scour the city telling the homeless where to get shelter. Does that happen in the US? No, the homeless get spit on and called lazy, god forbid someone feed them (and who has more compassionate?) The fact that they spend a good portion of their budget on schools and healthcare seems pretty selfless to me, since it seems their citizens care more about their fellow human beings, but I guess thats really just them being socialist.

ConservPat, I dont have the time at the moment to find the US threats (oh but WAIT, didnt it threaten a unilateral war?) but I know there are links, when I return home I will post more info about it. I am actually pretty sure that there is a thread somewhere else on this forum that details it (perhaps by Wertz, if you happen to see this Bill..If not oh well).

If France hates America so much, why are they trying to repair their relationship with the USA while the USA is so hell-bent on punishing them for not supporting the war they had no obligation to support? Even if there are shady reasons France didnt support the war, SO WHAT? The fact is, they didnt have to support the war.

moif: Tak for the compliment on my user name

Last year? We've had an outreach program where I live for at least a decade. Funded and run by the government. As are most of the homeless shelters. And the free health clinics. I doubt that this is unusual for any major city in the US.

Folks, it's this simple, in recent history, in a time of war, against terror, with the impending war on Iraq looming, an ally, the French [along with Russia and Germany] was trading with Iraq. Then they threaten and bribe their way to pacifism and bring some other countries with them. Now, regarding the past, if you honestly are telling me that the French are again, immune, from public critism because they helped us out 250 years ago, then you are not thinking realistically. We have helped the French too, and I have not used that to my advantage because I understand that the past does not matter! This is not the past! So can you guys start defending the present France instead of praising the past France. Also, KP, it isn't a unilateral war when we have allies, we had around 40.

CP

Cp, just answer me here. You've constantly been avoiding answering this question, and just saying that it doesn't matter because it was so long ago.

What difference does it make that the French helped us out 200 years ago? Without them, we'd still belong to Britain.

Actually I'm not avoiding anything. Okay, with that said Bean, if we didn't help out the French in WWII they'd belong to Nazi Germany, this conversation could go on forever, I don't dislike the French Gov't for what they did the in the past, but what they are doing now in the present.

CP

I did defend present France and all you did was tell me to get over what or who they've helped which only goes to show you are purposely choosing to overlook anything positive while taking everything negative and blowing it all out of proportion to support your case.

Admit it...you hate France because that's what our government has implied is the 'patriotic' thing to do and you want to prove how loyal you are regardless of the facts or who is really right or wrong. To me it sounds like all they are doing is providing us an enemy so they can drum up support. This is due to the fact that their case was and is so weak on it's own they feel the need to manufacture outrage and use nationalism to garner support for it even from their own country.

And stop pretending Iraq had anything to do with terrorism or our security because no one else buys it. If this were true it would be clear to everyone by now just like it was in Afgahnistan and people would not need Bush or Blair to try so hard to convince them of it.

You are right about one thing. We did have a lot of countries sign on to help...mostly ones that had no ability or intention of doing anything but allowing their name to be on a list of support. Besides lip service (very little at that) they have not contributed to or been involved in this war any more than France or Canada or Germany. Their only contribution has been in the form of a vote or a nod. I don't know who we are trying to convince that it's some kind of real coaltition simply because that's what we've been calling it.

If you disagree maybe you can tell me where all the support is? If they can't offer their own soldiers how about money? How about police? How about teachers and food and construction crews? Why are all of those things having to be paid for and contracted out to American corporations instead of being donated by grateful nations who are now safer? Why would we need to provide 90% of the funding and 90% of the people to get these things done?

And the really sad thing is that if there really were a more broad based group helping out instead of only the US and British making every decision and trying to be in charge of every effort we might be seeing success at rebuilding Iraq instead of failure and murdered soldiers. Could it be because this is all about power and less about rebuilding and giving the country back to it's rightful owners?

It only makes us look foolish to continue to pretend we have a right to be angry and desire to punish the French or anyone else for not wanting us to get into this mess in the first place. But now we need the support of all of them, including France. We didn't need it to win militarily...we didn't need anyone else to for that. But if we are to accomplish what were supposed to be our goals when we started this war this is where support matters. If we don't get it soon this really will become the dreaded quagmire it's already close to becoming, whether some want to admit it or not.

You defended present France by bringing up past France, this arguement is null and void because we have helped France just as much as they have helped us. I will say it again, because nobody is getting it, I dislike France because of its sleazy and Mob-like behavior over the past half year.

And when we find WMD's how dumb is France going to look? If I really didn't like France cause they don't agree with our policy, why wouldn't I dislike other countries that don't agree with our policies that haven't acted like the Mafia? Again, I dislike France because of what they have been doing to react to US foreign policy. There is no way that anuone can tell me, why I dislike France. I'm telling you that is why I dislike France. And I feel that I am justified.

I don't think that people understand this, SH was the head of a terrorist regeme. Of course they had something to do with the war on terror. And France was trading with a terrorist regeme.

CP

OK. I will try once more.

One of the recent examples I gave you was regarding Liberia. France has provided support by going in and rescuing American's among others that were caught up in the middle of the fighting. They have pledged troops to help end the conflict which has been requested by both sides. Let's be clear about why this matters. Whatever role we play goes a long way to establish the credibility of our foreign policy and our actions in Iraq. To dismiss the role being played by the French when we have not even matched their involvement so far only damages our international relations and reputation further so we hurt only ourselves.

Cool, I'm glad that the French helped us. But again, I'll ask: Just because the French have helped us before, how, and why does that exempt them from public critism when they act like the Mafia?

CP

I think that this new opposition towards France is ridiculous. I have a friend who is French, and she is very upset with how she has been treated as of late. I think that this mentality, as well as hating all Muslims because of September 11th, really demonstrates how backward American people can be sometimes. Yes, they opposed the war with Iraq, but so did many American people, like myself. Should we turn on our fellow Americans, too?

That didn't answer the question that I have raised at all. BTW, I didn't hate Muslims after Sept. 11 [I have a good amount of Muslim friends] so there is no connection there either.

CP

I wasn't responding to your direct question, CP, I was responding to the original question posed by the beginner of this thread.

Oh, my mistake .

CP

You really don't get it do you? They aren't helping us. They are showing us up for the hypocrites we are and we are providing them a stage to do it. We stand around like idiots bashing the French while the world looks on with accusing eyes.

This is proof that we cannot be trusted in the role we've appointed ourselves as world cop and savior. It also proves once and for all that our claims of being pioneers of democracy or humanitarian saints are nothing but a grasp at straws to cover what is becoming more and more clearly a criminal act of war.

That didn't come close to answering my question. There is no doubt that the French aren't doing dispicable things, there's no use pretending that they're innocent Danya. So please, answer my question, why should they be immune from public critism after being proved low-lifes [see my links].

CP

I'll be happy to as soon as you can prove we are better than they are....preferably by using the Liberia example for a start. We can go tit for tat to the beginning of US history and outdo each other if you want...but there is no point. At best it would be a tie.

I really don't see how you can claim moral authority over the French or anyone else at the moment.

That is exactly what I've been saying the whole time, the past does not matter. This thread is about hating France, I have explained why I do, now please, answer my question and tell me why I'm wrong. I believe that the USA was acting morally when going to war with Iraq. But that is for another thread. So please, now that I have answered your question, answer mine:

CP

I do not live on the East Coast. You do, so please explain to me how the Mafia relates to the French.

I've heard of the Russian mafia and the Sicilian mafia, the Cosa Nostra.
How is it that the French are like them? Cite any examples.

Also, I understand that crime is rampant in some areas of this country from the aforementioned crime groups. That's in OUR fair country.

So what about France?

I am saddened but not surprised to see that none of the folks arguing in favor of "hating" the French (for trading with Iraq) have paid any attention to my post referring to current American companies trading with an "axis of evil" country like Iran.

Ignoring the beam in our own eye will only allow it to become more firmly ensconced.

It exempts them no more and no less than it does our mafia behavior. If you want to accuse them of something we aren't doing ourselves maybe you'd be more convincing. You simply aren't consistent. Do you hate the US for dealing with Iraq? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Do you think it's immoral that the US gave WMD's to what you have now decided is a terrorist? How about for supporting him even after he used them to kill his own people? Why do you overlook all of those things and claim your country is moral yet France has done only half of that and deserves scorn, hatred, and maybe even retribution? You better clean your own house first.

They are threatening and bribing other countries to do something that would help the French position, I have already given links as to that. I think Danya, that the USA has made a series of stupid mistakes with SH, but giving him WMD's and other charges were out of context, and just that, stupid mistakes. Now that we have established why we dislike the French, does it makes sense to you Paladin?

CP

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../17/wfra117.xml

I went back over the links, and I do see why you would persist in hating the French.

Anytime there is a long relationship between nations, there are instances where umbrage will be taken as a consequence of mistakes that each nation makes. That is evident in the link I cited above.

It appears that the French do not like to be bullied by the United States, and George W. Bush and company are about as diplomatic as a wedding guest wearing muddy combat boots to the church ceremony. And yet, the French savor the position of Elder Brother admonishing the new nations aspiring to join the E.U. So they are not above doing some bullying themselves.

But I would remind you that pre-emptively invading a nation is a tad bit more bullying (!) than
threatening a nation with not joining the European Union.

Yes, I see how YOU feel justified in your feelings about France. But I still feel justified in MY contention that the French do not deserve to be hated.

(Edited to add: Why IS the U.S.'s "mistake" of dealing with Saddam Hussein less serious than the French dealing with Saddam Hussein?)

French companies have dealt with sanctioned regimes; American companies are dealing with sanctioned regimes. Crickets are still chirping, haven't heard from CP or johnlocke on that one yet.

The French government opposed the war on Iraq. So did many others. Big freakin deal.

CP, you're raising a valid point, which is: the French are open to public criticism. I've so so myself. All governments are open for this. But then you jump into the strange: that hating the French is somehow justified.

This is what the French are doing: They are looking for excuses to not fight against a terrorist regeme because they have money invested in it, furthermore, they are trying to bribe and threaten other countries into doing the same. How is it strange to hate these acts, I hate the French gov't not the French people. Also, quark, can you elaborate on these sanctioned regems, I don't know what you're talking about.

CP

Pat, it would seem within the last several posts that you keep falling back on the French attempting to have bribed other countries to support their position on Iraq. You have as a result compared them to the mafia. You conveniently ignored Danya's earlier point (one which I remember being made much earlier) that you are accusing their government of nothing our government is not equally guilty of. Did you forget about us trying to bribe Turkey around the same time? Perhaps you're unaware of the immunity granted to certain war criminals following the end of WWII, much to our benefit rather than France...

You and others may disagree with the actions France took regarding our war with Iraq, but that hardly seems justification for hating either the French people or the French government. If you do find it justified, though, perhaps you should take another look at the actions of your own government and see if they're really any different.

No problem. I posted this on June 29th:

While this does show the idiocy of some American companies, it doesn't prove to me that France isn't committing horrible atrocities.

Abs, I already said something about that, I think [God, this thread's so long I've forgotten what I said ]. I responded to that by saying

CP

Wait a minute, Pat. Now France is "committing horrible atrocities?" Oh please, do elaborate!

Links that I have provided elaborate on these attrocities. Come on quark, I was being dramatic, defend the French, leave me alone .

CP

It's not about "defending" the French, and it's not, CP, about you.

The French are certainly guilty as charged. What I am attempting to bring into this insipid French-bashing thread is that our time as Americans would be better spent fixing our own problems in this area, which have been, at various times, just as bad as anything France has done or is doing. If the people who "hate" the French would pull their heads out of the sand, they might see that France is merely a mirror to our own "horrible atrocities," as my colleague Conservpat put it.

Fair enough quark. I do think that under the circumstances the USA gov't is doing the right thing. I am glad that everyone understands why I may exhibit some anti-French sentiment.

CP

If anyone wants any info on the US and $$$$$ and war and such, read Addicted to War (Sure it has a couple facts wrong but for the most part it hits the spot!).

Kaneshnyah, how does this relate to the topic?

In addition to cyan's question, what is this 'Addicted to War'? You don't even say if it is a book, article, movie, speech or who created it....

P.S. My request in this thread from 06/26/03, 8:36am stills stands...

What is this about, what is this trying to prove, I don't get it.

CP

Oops, sorry! It's a book written by Joel Andreas and published by AK Press. Truthfully, it is a bit one sided but some of the illustrations are funny!

CP,
I was reminding you of Quarks point I quoted above and I was providing you a link in case you would like to get all worked up over something useful. You can't really do anything about bad French policy. But you can do things about similar bad American policy if you wanted to.

I don't get worked up, I make points.

Yes, those corporations trading with axis of evil countries are selfish and very, very immoral. But that isn't the gov't doing the trading. The gov't isn't forcing those companies to trade, so there is no comparison.

CP

Are you saying the French government forced companies to trade with Iraq? This is something I had not considered. Can you provide links?

I must preface my comment on the topic of French dislike by saying first that I am as yet undecided in my view. I’ve been completely ignorant of world events for much of my life and have only recently begun to rectify that, until I feel I have a thorough grasp of events leading up to the current political climate I am attempting to hold back on an opinion. That said, there are a few interesting points to note.

First, a lot of people talk of French cowardice as reason to despise them, citing the failure of the French forces to turn the tide of German advance during WWII. No one mentions the millions of French who died before France ‘rolled over’, no one mentions that the Maginot line was a technological marvel of its time. If not for the advent of mechanized infantry and German use of an advanced air force, that line would most likely have held against anything that was thrown at it. The real problem was that the French, in typical French fashion, were so arrogant they let the whole world know exactly what was there. Once an enemy knows your defenses, they can always be defeated. Even without taking into consideration the effort that France put forth in trying to repel the Germans, they didn’t ‘just roll over’, there were freedom fighters, spies, and a large underground movement within the country for the duration of the war. This is to say nothing of any previous wars they were involved in. I’d say pinning a badge of cowardice on this nation is unfair.

It is also unfair to claim that the United States somehow owes the French some sort of debt for their blockade of the English armada and help provided by her troops in Yorktown during the American Revolution. Not even bringing up the fact that this occurred over 200 years ago, and that none of the politicians currently alive had anything to do with that. The help provided was more of a retaliation for the losses, both in influence and pride, that the French suffered during the 7 years war. France and Britain have been bitter enemies for most of recorded history. British influence was spreading while France was necessarily focusing on internal policy rather than colonial efforts. France was more interested in helping knock the British down a notch or two then with helping the fledging American government. France has always done whatever she can to harass the British position in an attempt to keep her from gaining any more influence. Helping the Americans in this instance was not an act of allegiance or one of moral import, but a chance to weaken the global position of Britain.

I’m sure all that has already been said here in one way or another, but I have not seen this little item spoken of…

At the end of World War II, the French harbored a known Nazi sympathizer and Anti-Semite who had been Grand Mufti for the area now known as Palestine while it was under British rule. This man’s name was Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_g...grand_mufti.php

If you wanted to find a man most responsible for the problems faced in the Middle East today, it would be this man. He was to be tried as a war criminal for his behavior during WWII, but the French kept him safe in a Parisian Villa until after the partition vote when he could gather his forces to him and gain some measure of power in the new Arab state. It was he that ensured the first sniper shot was fired into a bus full of Jews, and it was he that marshaled Arab forces to war with the newly formed state of Israel. In all the things I’ve read about France over the last year or two, I’d say this one act is the most deserving as a reason to condemn this nation as self-serving beyond all others. The only reason they kept him alive was to further embarrass the English, to serve as a reminder of English failure. Offering a safe haven to this raving lunatic and allowing him to gather political strength from the relative safety of Paris was possibly the most disastrous and self important thing they could have done, and we continue to deal with the violent repercussions to this day.

Danya stated the first question on my mind about this statement. The second one is, "Is the american government doing anything to stop this?"

Yes, the French gov't are the one's trading with Iraq, not just companies. I'll try to find some more links, though we have some throughout the site [Iraq's top three trade partners].

CP

My problem isn't so much with who the US companies do business with so much as the problem I have with french people doing anykind of business.