It seem's to me whenever a nutso serial killer is on the loose the profilers always come up with he's a white guy between 25 and 50. Recently in the case of the Washington D.C. sniper and the Baton Rouge serial killer the killer's freedom, and resulting further deaths, were quite possibly extended by incorrect profiles.

Is profiling a useful tool?

It's perfectly useful. It's not designed to be a solution to a problem. Only a tool.

This all revolves the Pareto Principle. The 80/20 rule.

Why bother focusing on black serial killers when the probability is much, much greater it will be white serial killer? It doesn't mean you don't LOOK at others...just where to target your focus.

It's all statistics. And statistically, almost all serial killers are white guys.

Am I offended because as a whiney white guy, I get grouped in with these killers? Heck no. I have nothing to hide and if it can save lives, knock yourself out.

Some of us debated a portion of this issue here a few months ago: Racial Profiling. That thread is closed now, but I thought it would be an easy way for you to see how some of us stood on one aspect this debate (race). Your debate, hugo, seems to be a bit more all encompassing of profiling, including the FBI's techniques.

Want to see the direct result of poor profiling (and get a good laugh at my expense in the meantime) check out this thread: What's Going On? Maryland

I'm afraid I don't get the connection between the thread title "Whiney White Guy" and the topic, which seems to be racial profiling.

What if racism is the reason that white guys are looked at as more likely to be serial killers? Statistics show serial killers are more likely to be of the same race as their victims. If crimes against white women draw more attention then crimes against hispanic and black women then black and hispanic serial killers are getting away with murder, literally. Possibly, the statistics are skewed by the possibility killings of white victims are better investigated. I am sick and tired of everyone looking at me as a potential serial killer based on my race and sex.(That is where the whiney white guy comes in)

There is no connection between "profiling" the identity of a criminal based on the evidence of specific crimes, and stopping Black people just because of some sort of notion that they are somehow likely to be guilty of some sort of crime. But that was a sort of clever attempt to "turn the tables."

That's ridiculous. Blacks don't get stopped because they might be guilty of something. Why don't you provide some evidence to back that up?

Actually it happens quite frequently, I saw on the news the other day a black man running out of a bank carrying a bag of money and a gun was stopped and thrown in jail. The thinking was he might be guilty of bank robbery. Another black man is in jail in Louisiana because he might be guilty of several murders.

Unfunny sarcasm aside, are you trying to tell me you think racial profiling doesn't happen? Aside from obvious snafus like Operation Pipeline, here's a couple more:
here

I'd say my point remains: there is a difference between extrapolating a profile of a criminal from a specific crime(s), and racial profiling.

This is waaaaaaay too easy.

Here's an example of the phenomenon known as "Driving While Black."

Pennsylvania

Jonny Gammage was pulled over while driving his cousin's Jaguar at 2 A.M. on October 12. As Gammage pulled over a total of five Brentwood police cars arrived on the scene. One of the officers said that Gammage ran three red lights before stopping after the officer flashed his lights at him. The officer ordered Gammage out of the car and saw him grab something that was reportedly a weapon, but in reality was just a cellular phone. The officer knocked the phone out of Gammage's hand and a scuffle followed. The other officers beat Gammage with a flashlight, a collapsible baton and a blackjack as one put his foot on Gammage's neck. Jonny Gammage died, handcuffed, ankles bound, facedown on the pavement shortly after the incident began. He was unarmed.
(Originally published in "Under Suspicion," by Thomas Fields-Meyer, et. al in People Magazine on January 15, 1996.)

Maryland

In 1997, Charles and Etta Carter, an elderly African-American couple from Pennsylvania, were stopped by Maryland State Police on their 40th wedding anniversary. The troopers searched their car and brought in drug-sniffing dogs. During the course of the search, their daughter's wedding dress was tossed onto one of the police cars and, as trucks passed on I-95, it was blown to the ground. Ms. Carter was not allowed to use the restroom during the search because police officers feared that she would flee. Their belongings were strewn along the highway, trampled and urinated on by the dogs. No drugs were found and no ticket was issued by the state trooper. The Carter's eventually reached a settlement with the Maryland State Police.
(Originally published in "Race-Profiling Again Attacked," by Catherine Brennan in the Daily Record, Volume 212, No. 4).

Indiana - Carmel

Sgt. David Smith, an African-American police officer, was pulled over while driving an unmarked car in the City of Carmel. Sgt. Smith was wearing a full uniform at the time, but he was not wearing a hat which would have identified him as a police officer. According to a complaint filed with the ACLU, the trooper who stopped Smith appeared to be "shocked and surprised" when Sgt. Smith got out of the car. The trooper explained that he had stopped Smith because he had three antennas on the rear of his car and quickly left the scene.
(Originally published in "Making Traffic Stops Based on Race," by Sheila Kennedy in the Indianapolis Star on January 29, 1997. )

A report on racial profiling can be found on the ACLU web site: http://archive.aclu.org/profiling/report/

You've provided three example of cops possibly acting like idiots. The one guy that died was very unfortunate. However, if a cop knocks a phone out of my hand, I'll try to get the phone later. You minimize the "scuffle ensued" blurb when in reality, he should have obeyed the officer right or wrong. The officer's life is in risk all the time and the guy apparently had no respect for that.

Every incident you cite happen the same for whites, Latinos, or whoever. There is nothing to suggest it was only because they were black, but you did a decent job spinning it into that.

Lastly, even to presume they were pulled over and harassed just because of their color, the incidents are rare. This is not institutional racism.

This whole "driving while black" deal is a ridiculous notion.

Here's something I go through probably 3 or 4 times a year. I play in a band and play clubs a couple/few weekends a month. My average distance to a gig is about an hour away. So, if I don't get done playing until 2, I don't get packed up and out of there until around 3, home at 4. Four year old daughter wakes me up at 10, shower at...oops...sorry.

Anyhow, a few times a year, the same thing happens. A cop pulls me over for failing to signal, speeding, blah blah blah. He's checking my license and registration and asks if I've been drinking. I tell him no, it would only put me to sleep for the ride home.

Regardless of what I say or do, it's the same drill. I do the breathalizer. I go outside and walk, touch my nose, yadda yadda yadda. I get a warning and he sends me home. Funny how I've never got a ticket for these "violations". Always a warning after I pass the drunk test.

So, here's my point. Am I being profiled? Of course I am!!! The chances of me being the only one on a dark deserted road at 3 in the morning a couple blocks from a bar and sober aren't that high. He's not pulling me over because of my color. He's not pulling me over because of my age. He's pulling me over to prevent problems.

Do I whine and complain? No...because the cop is trying to keep the drunks off the road so I can get home. It's simple crime prevention. Maybe people would be happier if cops only waited for crimes to happen before doing anything.

Not only does racial profiling happen all the time, it is usually justified.

its good i guess, until you try to get a job and they wont hire you. then you turn into that cannibal the t.v box portrays. its a nice system.

Hugo: If you believe singling out a particular demographic group to be placed under observation, suspicion and harassment is justified then that strikes me as support for lazy, inefficient, intrusive and overbearing behavior by police.

DaytonRocker: I cited three examples because there wasn't space for 30 or 300 or 3000, but I'd have no trouble finding those examples. You asked for evidence and I provided it. However, if you have already made up your mind that driving while black is a myth why should I waste your time and mine trying to convince you otherwise?

I would challenge you to prove that "driving while black" is a myth. Something more substantial than a anecdotal example.

Racial profiling is racist.

Its not just an American problem. It happens in Europe as well. People from ethnic minorities are always being stopped by the police.

I'm not sure if its racist, but it is certainly done because of race.

I suppose the counter argument is that the ethnic minorities have a higher proportion of committed crimes than the majority ethnic Europeans, so the added suspicion is justified.

If it is, or not, I don't really know, but I do know that the only person I ever caught trying to steal my bike, was of Somali origin.

its not that there is not solid reason for such fears, i think that most of this stuff is a good social pointer and narual to some extent. its when it harms people that by no means are of the profile, such as in america we have a large "gangsta"
idea in culture. so alot of times due to that, really in the youth to you get that perception. and that carries over, as in, a person getting stopped and or not hired to to the social profile. so in itself feeds its own problems. i dont see much point in that.

I know this topic has been stagnant for some time now, but I thought I'd re-open the discussion with some statistics and other related information about the reality of racial profiling and things such as DWB.

I will say what I always say when someone assumes some sort of race-related incident is a "myth" or "imagined". Just because you cannot and have not experienced it does not make it untrue. I personally haven't experience any racial profiling as a white woman, however I could list at least 10 people that I PERSONALLY know who have been pulled over by police with no other "evidence" other than race (Mexicans, Arabs, and Blacks). I don't make arguments on anecdotal evidence since it's highly subjective...just saying that I believe the 10 people I personally know (one is my step-father, who is Mexican) and that racial profiling is hardly a myth.

Bureau of Justice Statistics - Traffic Stop Data Collection Policies for State Police, 2001
Driving While Black - Racial Profiling Under Study
Driving While Black
Maine Should Gather Data on Racial Profiling
History of Racial Profiling Controversy
Institute on Race & Poverty's Racial Profiling Data Collection Status Report

There was an incident in Chandler, Arizona a few years back where Chandler police officers were told to go door to door looking for "Mexican looking" people because they'd gotten some tip that Chandler residents were helping Mexican immigrants cross the border. They "rounded up" the "Mexican looking" people and some were detained simply for being Mexican and suspected of being "illegal" or aiding immigrants. But no, that's not racial profiling, right?

Here's the most comprehensive site dealing with Racial Profiling stats that I've found: http://www.uua.org/news/2003/030611b.html - there are dozens of links related to race and the criminal justice system.

Many organizations are conducting studies on racial profiling by police departments. Those are all "in progress" so I didn't really find many links with actual statistics.

Yes, it is. If we know that a criminal is white, then looking for black people would be a waste of time, why give criminals the upper hand by being politically correct ?

CP

I guess those cops in Chandler could have rounded up all the 'white-looking' people instead. That might have yielded the criminals and illegals they were looking for.

Ever since the term 'racial profiling' came into vogue it has been misunderstood. Maybe intentionally, maybe not. Point is, when the element you are looking for is of one ethnic persuasion, such as Mexican illegals or Muslim terrorists, then that is the ethnicity of the people you should be investigating, period. Searching granny at the airport or pulling over the soccer mom in Chandler is nothing but a waste of time and resources.

First of all, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. You can't JUST consider someone a suspect because he/she fits a racial category. That is ludicrous. I hope you are never in a situation where you are targeted as a suspect JUST BECAUSE you are white. That is what happened in Chandler. There was no other evidence, these cops just went searching for Mexicans in the hopes they'd find some who were illegal or helping illegal Mexican immigrants.

After 9-11, it was "en vogue" for people to look at any Arab as "potential terrorist". Do you think people look at every white guy and think "oh he's a potential serial killer" just because the VAST majority of serial killers are white? No, that would be ridiculous.

Membership of a certain ethnic group does not create a reason in and of itself to stop someone or question someone as a suspect in a crime. Period.

Beg to differ. Your scenario was that police rec'd a tip regarding illegal Mexican aliens. Not only was race a factor, it was the most significant one.

If a bank in my city were robbed by a good-lookin' white guy I'd expect to be stopped by the police. If not, they're not doing their job. ONTOH, when I'm searched at an airport it's nothing but appeasing the PC crowd. And if we leave things in their hands we're going to pay the severest of consequences.

Let me give you an example of real racial profiling. Cops get a burglary call in a racially diverse neighborhood. The call provides no description of the perp. None. Cops then go out and stop only black males and check them out. That is racial profiling. The examples you've put forth are better known as good police work.

I disagree. You are mixing up racial profiling with criminal profiling. Police, as a rule, don't pull people over based soley on the color of their skin. But, if a black guy boosted a car and they are trying to find him, they're not going to be stopping white people.

Unfortunatly, a small percentage of the population commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. That is a factor that cannot be ignored. So, a disproportionate amount of innocents will be checked.

Your links really provide no insight into the facts and statistics regarding "driving while black" and all that other <insert your favorite term here>-while-black.

Your first link just shows who's studying police actions (tickets, arrests, etc). There is nothing new about that. The rest is subjective.

I'm not denying that some cops are idiots and that some people are being unfairly harrassed. But this is not institutional racism. My bet is that if there is a black guy stopped at a light next to a car with two white teenage kids full of piercings playing Ludicrous at mind-numbing volumes, he's not going to be paying much attention to the black guy.

So, what do we study next? Driving while young and stupid? Driving while pierced? Driving while hip-hopping? There's no law against either of those.

In a thread that has since been closed Aquapub posted An alleged rapist was getting away recently in Chicago, and the police mentioned to the media that the suspect bore a striking resemblance to Ice T. Now the NAACP is considering a lawsuit against the police for..Um..I guess for insinuating that all blacks look alike, or something.

In the interest of accuracy and clarification, I would like to point out that it wasn't the rapper Ice-T, but the rapper Ice Cube that was stopped by the Chicago police.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ople_ice_cube_5

Though neither of these two gentlemen are photographed with any facial expression except a scowl, I can assure that they do not look alike. Guess this points out the inherent dangers of profiling.

Ice-T, Ice Cube, Vanilla Ice, Ice Water, Ice Milk, Ice Tray...it DOES get rather confusing at times.

Profiling in serial murder or rape cases goes way beyond skin color. There are psychologists that specialize in setting up profiles which have to do with age, race, clinical mental problems, possible motives and other targets, etc. This is not really the work of your regular beat cop, he just gets the reports.

Although the profilers can be wrong, how many times are they right? Narrowing the field can only be helpful, but certainely doesnt exclude other possibilities. Given the gravity and need for quick timeframe of capture in serial crimes, you have to try everything.

A far as all other profiling.... there are too many examples to list. How comfotable are YOU sitting next to an arab looking male on a plane these days, how about if there were 5 arab looking men in scattered seating between the ages of 28 and 40?

I used to ride the buses to north Philly, the only white girl, and I used to say to myself, 'just try not to look scared.'

Here in Alaska it happens with Natives. The cops stop them for jaywalking on the premise that they're probobly drunk. White people and tourists do not get stopped for jaywalking, unless they ARE drunk.

What to do...what to do....

Racial profiling for white guys as serial killers for some reason doesnt have the same effect as profiling all arabs as racists, isnt that a litlte weird you think? So what are you whining about? I dont see white guys walking down the street and think of them as killers or rapists, but I do know alot of people that are wary of black guys...In fact my mother had to "warn" me of the nephew of her friend that I would be staying with in Paris is "probably black", like that means he may be shocking to look at.

In a specific crime that has been committed, I do think that profiling is acceptable. If someone robbed a bank and the description is white guy, six foot, brown hair and eyes, its not necessarily race based. Stopping people because they are driving and happen to be Hispanic is something completely different. I live in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood in Denver, one night a boyfriend was driving me home, and he's white and has an Oldsmobile, which is by no means a nice car, but its not a piece of crap either. We were followed by the police, until they shined a flashlight on us and realized that he was white. God forbid a Hispanic drive a semi-decent car that was five years old, he could have stolen it.

And you know for certain that the fact your boyfriend was white prevented further investigation? Yea, the cops have time to pull over every hispanic driving a car less than five years old.

This exact argument could be a case FOR racial profiling. If you take the inherent prejudice out of the words "racial profiling" you see that it boils down to targetting likely criminals.

This is not true. As a matter of fact it may have resulted in additional deaths in the Belt=way sniper case.

The existing profile was that of a white male, since the majority of serial killers were understood to be white. However, there came specific information in this case that pointed to a suspect who was 'other than white'. Much of that information was withheld from the cops on the street by none other than Chief Moose himself. So much so that the police union in his department actually sought to have a clause included in their contract that would call for the Chief to not withhold that type of information in the future.

You won't find much about this part of the story in the liberal media simply because it shows just how dangerous political correctness can be.

The problem with people reporting their personal experiences is that they haven't had enough to be statistically accurate. Even the studies which are vastly more accurate can not be taken as fact because they sample a very small piece of a much larger phenomenon. Also, the cases in which criminal profiling DOES lead to the apprehension of a criminal are not given nearly as much attention.

The case of the Beltway snipers did go against the established norm. Big freakin' deal! The fact that MOST serial killers are white implies that SOME serial killers are not. Obviously, in that case the police profilers made a mistake and ignored other evidence, but that doesn't mean that criminal profiling isn't useful.

As for the question of racial profiling, until we live in a world in which there is no prejudice, the police will pull over minorites more often than they do whites. Even if they don't do it consciously, people make judgments about a person's appearance, and cops are people too. The change cannot take place there, you can't unlearn prejudice after it has been instilled over your entire lifetime. It will take a lot longer for our society to mature out of its stereotypes.

***personal attack deleted***, noone said criminal profiling wasn't useful or is never successful.

Where did you get those statistics. Please post references to your stated facts. This is true for crime, but not for serial killers.

Profiling is immensely useful, but blacks are somewhat new to mainstream serial killing. It will continue to throw profilers off until they get a handle on what significance race is starting to have.

Lets have some backup, as USUAL!.
'blacks are somewhat new to mainstream serial killing?' There you go, said it yourself. Your posts are RIDICULOUS.
I am sick of your intellectually bankrupt rants, not a speck of information to back yourself up, ever.

Do you really think that people look at you when you're walking down the street and think "gee I wonder if he's a serial killer."? I have NEVER heard anything like that in my life. Obviously you are free to believe what you want, but I have yet to meet a person who even thinks about things (all white guys are potential serial killers) like that. To make it clear I'm not saying your feelings that you're constantly looked at as "potential serial killer" are silly, just that I've never heard of anyone looking at random white men in that manner.



Actually that IS true. Most victims of serial killings have been white as have most of the killers. Black serial killers such as Henry Louis Wallace and Wayne Williams - their victims were all black. Historically, there is only one black serial killer that I know of who killed "across racial lines" and that is Jake Bird (aside from the recent killing spree of Muhammad and Malvo). There are a few white serial killers to have killed "across racial lines", some killing exclusively non-whites. The statistics online about serial killers seem suspicious because there is no "Credible source" linked for these stats. The majority of sites I've seen are relatively close in terms of stats, but they don't list the source (some said "according to the FBI but I haven't found anything from the FBI about serial killer stats).

Stats from The Crime Web - The Characteristics of a Serial Killer (stats at the very bottom of page)

Stats from Breaking You - Serial Killer Stats

btw, from what I've gathered, the profiles of serial killers have to do with the victims (since almost ALL serial killers kill "their own" almost exclusively) not based upon the likelihood that they're white just because the majority are white. If the victims are mostly white, the FBI will use the "white male, higher than average IQ, tortured animals as a child, etc." profile. If the victims are not white, they will not use that profile since it's very unlikely that the suspect would be a white male.

Artemise, while I completely understand your frustration with aquapub and his consistent failure to use sources, please just ask that he use them. No need to editorialize on his posting style.

I am interested in knowing the facts behind the behaviour of Serial Killers. I understand, from my reading, that more than 60% of Serial Killers are white. I would be interested to know if the white majority is Protestant, Catholic or of any other denominations.

The same question applies to the 25% (FBI source) of Black Serial Killers. What are their religious persuasions.

Which age group is more representative, and from which states does the majority come from, Northern, Southern, Western or Middle Western.

I realize there are too many questions, but if I could get a trickle of answers I still would be happy.

Thanks, guys

Under the general notion that racial profiling is the belief that some stereotype belongs to a . We waited in the first class line, and just seeing my dad, she says "This is the line for first class." My dad said that was what the ticket is for.

So then we go to the particular race, I want to use this as an example.
check lane and the guy there looked at my dad and said, "This is the first class line". Again, my dad said he had a first class ticket. Coincidence?

It gets worse. We went through the lane for the first-class who had to be screened, and the person with the wand told my dad again
My dad and I were going through an airport and had first class seats, going on a business trip. As everyone knows, the coach line and the first class line are extremely different baggage , "This is for first class only."

Now, my dad is a little angry but calmly explains that he has the ticket. So, we are finally ready to board the plane and the ticket taker says... the EXACT SAME THING!

So now my dad is angry (I am too), and he says something to the effect of Why do you think I can't be in First Class? Of course the lady was appalled, and she didn't deserve it obviously, but when you hear minorities get mad about racial profiling (or stereotypes in general) at least give it some though that they may have had some pretty bad experiences.

Exactly. It's not just some one-time incident people get upset about. My husband is STILL followed in stores (when we're in the states) and he's a grown man (26). He is ALWAYS well-dressed (won't leave the house unless he's looking good ), so it's not as if it's an issue of him looking like a "thug" or something (even still...). While he hasn't specifically been targeted by the police, a number of his friends (with very nice cars) have been on "suspicion" of illegal activity (Black folks can't have nice cars without being considered criminals, I guess?).

My step-father, on countless occasions, has been "harassed" (on all different levels of the word) by police simply because he's Mexican and fit some broad description (basically, "Mexican guy"). He was handcuffed in front of his then 4 year old and 1 year old for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (in an almost 100% Mexican neighborhood, where he grew up, and being pulled over for being "suspicious"). He was held, at gunpoint, because the police suspected him of stealing a truck - it was HIS TRUCK (well, his father's...but, I'll explain below) and he was trying to explain that he and my mother were the ones to call them. Story is that his father's truck had been stolen a month before, never found, and then my mother and step-father happened upon the truck when looking for a new home - it was parked in the driveway of the house right across the street from the one they were looking at! Anyway, my mother was screaming at the police that they were the ones who reported the thieves (about 7 or 8 very young Mexican guys took off in 2 other cars when they realized what was going on - and were speeding away as the cops arrived :roll:) and it took them 10 minutes to figure it out

It's not as if this sort of "profiling" (either by cops or by store-owners or whomever) is a rare occurence or that there are only a small number of people who've either been victim or who've known someone who's been victim.

My biggest beef with people who fail to consider that racial profiling could be a very real issue, is that it seems that they either don't WANT to believe it or that they can't seem to forget that they wouldn't have any real idea what it might be like for ethnic minorities in this country. I can speak with a little more "understanding" on account of my unique experiences as both the daughter of a Mexican man (for all intents and purposes I consider him my father - my bio father is not and has not been in the picture for almost 20 years) and as the wife of a Black man (and thus living through the experiences of not only my husband, but his entire family as well). It's frustrating to say the least that people could dismiss racial profiling and other ilk without really considering the fact that if it were happening, it's very likely that they personally would have no clue as it wouldn't be something that would affect them on any sort of noticeable level. A good friend of mine from high school was detained (granted it was brief after they realized their grave error) at an airport a few months after 9-11 for "being Middle Eastern and a potential threat to national security" - well, gee, he's MEXICAN first of all, and second of all, the only reason he was questioned at all is because they thought he was Middle Eastern...no other reason what-so-ever.

My experiences and those of people close to me tell me that racial profiling is very real. To me, there is a HUGE difference between a person's race being one of a number of factors and race being the ONLY factor. When race is the only factor (maybe in combination with one other thing, like being Black and driving a very expensive car, for example) used to determine one's level of "suspiciousness", then I would consider that racial profiling.


edited to fix some grammar/spelling mistakes

i once noted a rock that was positioned on the ground; this rock was white. Later i saw a rock, it was black; i picked up the rock and proceeded to the placement of the white rock... it was gone. I looked for the rock and finally found the rock, i dropped them both and moved on.