i would like to know the difinition of satan from anyone who would like to tell me, being i am not a person who has a faith like that, i have no idea what satan is except what i have seen in movies, and some old art.

I can offer only a Christian definition. Satan is actually a Greek form derived form the Aramaic (Heb., Satan), " an adversary". He is commonly believed to be an Archangel known originally as Lucifer who wanted to be God. " How you have fallen from heaven. O morning star, son of the dawn?(the literal meaning of Lucifer). You have been cast down to the earth. you how once laid low the nations? You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enshrined on the mount of assembly, on the the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High. I will make myself like the Most High."(Is. 14:12) This is related to the serpent (literally shinning one) of Eden, where Satan tempted Adam and Eve with the same desire. "Ye shall be as gods".(Genesis 4:5) The final demise of Satan is prophecied in Revelations as being cast down to the earth; "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray." His final destination is described on the last page of the Bible, "And the devil, who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur." (The lake of fire; AKA Hell ; Rev. 20:10)

ha! that is great stuff, lake of sulphur eh, that does not sound fun. anyone else have anything to add.

one story is that he was among the elite of the heavenly hosts, and went against God's will and was cast out along with his followers. this, of course, would be heaven as it was before the Earth was formed, etc.

IMO.. Satan is a entity/god created by religion to control the masses...

Exactly. Satan was created because heaven alone wasn't enough of an incentive when the going got tough. People exert more of an effort to escape pain than gain pleasure, and that concept was realized early in religion.

According to Piers Anthony, Satan is the "Incarnation of Evil", the personification of a fundamental moral force in the Universe. Suggested reading would be Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series. Enjoyable books that deal with such fun issues as War, Nature, Time, Death, Good and Evil. (Love is in there too, but I can't remember if there's an Incarnation for love.)

Or, try Paradise Lost by Milton. It'll give you a good overview of the classic Christian imagery of Satan.

Or you can buy into the pap that Satan was just made up as a means of controlling the sheeple who are soooo stupid that they'll believe anything.

Before you do that, ask yourself this question: Does evil exist?

Satan is the core of all evil.

Lies, Murder, assault, hypocrisy, just go on and on with anything you can think of that is wrong, that is what satan is and controls

Actually, Biblical references to Satan (which literally means "the accuser") are pretty sketchy. Apart from the book of Job, in which he plays a major role, and the temptation of Jesus in the desert, he doesn't really appear as a character. He is referred to by a couple of the prophets and is mentioned more or less allegorically in the gospels, but, until the fantasia of the Revelation of St. John, that's about it. Satan is frequently associated (confused?) with references to other demons, devils, and forces of evil that get passing mention in the Bible - such as Beelzebub and the serpent of Genesis - but Satan himself is more the god of limits or boundaries rather than a personification of Evil (or, even sillier, a fallen angel).

As Bikerdad mentions, most of our current notions of Satan are derived from Milton. While a verse of Isaiah was mistranslated ("this luminous falling star" was rendered as "Lucifer" when the Old Testament was translated into Latin) and picked up on by the likes of St. Jerome, it is Milton that solidly equates the archangel Lucifer (which literally means "light-bearing") with Satan. In Paradise Lost, Lucifer (known as Satan after his fall, according to Milton) calls for a rebellion among the angels, questioning the authority of God - and arguing a number of Enlightenment principles such as freedom, equality, and natural rights. For his presumption (or humanism), Lucifer is cast into the pit - and the rest is history (well, literature actually - but don't try to tell that to your local priest).

The Church, from the time the fallen angel mythology entered the dogma, has indeed used the notion of Satan and Hell as a threat - as much as it has used the potential rewards of Heaven - in order to encourage avoidance of sin and a desire for redemption.

Sadly, the Biblical (especially the Hebraic) notion of Satan as the god of limitations is too subtle for the Manichean dualism which has rather taken over Christian dogma since the Seventeenth Century and most people cannot see much beyond light/dark, good/evil, God/Devil... black/white. Christian theology, like most things in life, is (or was) much more about shades of gray. Many scholars characterize Milton as having rendered Satan sympathetic, charismatic, and complex. Ha! They should read the book of Job!

So, in other words, the Bush Administration.

that did not take long

I reckon satan is the ultimate scapegoat. The big lie which excuses us from responsibility for our acts.

Yes there is evil. It is the will to do deliberate harm to others. Other people, other animals, other places, and human beings don't need any devils or demons to commit such evils.

By this measure, any person who attacks without first being attacked, is evil. And any person who commits to a course of action which will harm or kill innocent by standers is evil.

This, in my opinion, is the closest we come to satan. The human being who hides behind laws, traditions or half truths to push forward an agenda knowing full well that it will cause suffering to other people, animals and places.

By this measure, George W Bush, is evil and no amount of 'prayer' can change that.

*ahem* While the evil of the Bush administration may be self-evident, let's not allow this thread to degenerate...

It might be of interest that Satan and Hell are not discussed in depth in the Old Testement. I was not untill Jesus came along and started saying that Hell was real and actually described a conversation he had with someone who was actually there that it developed. Jesus by the way, was virtually the only one in the New Testement to discuss Hell. He goes so far as to claim that it was actually built for Satan and his angels and anyone going on to what is known as 'perdition' will join him there. The Antichrist has the dubious distinction of being the first human to be cast into the lake of fire after the resurection. Satan does not actually join his little puppet for another 1000 years, he instead is locked up in the Abyss (bottomless pit).

Liberal scholars claim this is related to the influence of Helenistic Greece on the Jewish culture. They had fully developed the concept of divine retribution for people as well as gods. Its interesting that the Titans were not sent to hades, they were buried under it. That's what you get when you mess with Zeus.

Anyway, Milton was useing poetry, and such, to illustrate theological themes that predate him by a lot of centuries. Whether or not you think he is a myth or a fallen angel the origins of the arch-nemises of God in Christian theology goes back at least to the first century. But dont worry, it might all just be a cleverly divised fable...or maybe not. "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away, It is better for you to lose one part of your body that for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:30) I wonder if Milton ever read that.

Well, from my point of view, this topic doesn't matter. Why? I'm an atheist, and there's no proof that "Satan" or "god" or any of these people exist now, or had in previous times. The only real evidence is the bible, and that could've just been written by someone.

Sorry Wertz. I didn't mean to claim that Bush was evil. Only in the light of the example...

All the more reason that such topics should matter to you, Bean. I, too, am what most people (and all fundamentalist Christians) would consider an athiest. But the Bible, Judeo-Christianity, and Manichean notions of good and evil impact on all of our lives. Far too many people who wield enormous power in this country do harbor such beliefs - and they seriously affect national policy in almost every arena. Sadly, most Christians have extremely limited knowledge of their faith, its history, and even the basic tenets of their dogma - and many of them base their "moral" opinions on simplistic, fifth-hand misinterpretations of non-scriptural suppositions. The more one knows about such beliefs, even if one doesn't share them, the better equipped one is to address them - and their effects.

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moif: I wasn't disagreeing, by any means: I believe that Bush is evil - one of the most evil men alive. I was referring more to the bd123/Nu Marx/nileriver exchange. I was just afraid that this thread was descending into an exchange of one-liners (however amusing).

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I have since, by the way, come across an item on Lucifer and Satan (and especially the impact of Zoroastrianism on the separation of the Satanic from the God-like) which included a few things I hadn't previously come across. It can be found here and may be of interest to those pursuing this thread...

so thats why men are from mars and women from venus. i get it now, still a pyrimid, but what the heck

If I am not wrong Lucifer became Satan. Lucifer was the most beautiful and beloved angel of God, but Lucifer had too much pride. When God created man and commanded all the angels to bow down to humanity, Satan refused. He was the first angel to sin, to cross that barrier of obedience, for this he was cast down from Heaven .
I have no backing for this information but have heard it for years, both in Christian and Wiccan teachings. Thought it might add something as far as philiosophical religious thought. I really enjoy theology as philosophy. Its so colorful and magical.

Satan seems to be the way religious people rationalize their negative and unethical behavior. The rest of us dont have that scapegoat. On the other hand, it is a convenient way to remain positive in light of the worlds difficulties, that an angelic force is behind it all and in fact People are not responsible for their actions. It allows for alot of forgiveness. (ie: Satan took hold of you, but now that you have found The Way, the Truth and the Light.. etc)

Fantastically it allows TV preachers to get away with stealing millions. You think they are finished because they are caught in affairs or embezzlement, but they get right back on and say Satan took them, as proof of the human condition, to bring them closer to God and use them as an example of Satan at work, and then rake the bucks in ever more than before. A sorry state of religious idiocy for those that follow.

Satan, like God, can be whatever or whoever you want it to be, if so inclined to the Gods of convenience.

Politically, we need to STOP overusing the word EVIL in adjunct with governments and leaders. We are burning it out. Not a government or leader has a plot in heaven, and most are pro-actively working on their own acres of property in Hell. (Figuratively)
Axis of Evil initially made me laugh until I realized they were serious. Reagan moved the people at one point with 'Evil Empire', truly ridiculous, and every attempt to resurrect this addage is equally so.( it was the two govenments acting irresponsibly, NOT the people)
We need to move beyond such simplistic and overtly religious notions of good and evil and begin to call things what they are in better detail, then I think we can intellectually and spiritually change the planet. One persons or governments 'good ' can very well be others persons 'evil'. Corruption, greed, lies, murder, war, manipulation; all of this is evil, yet it our minds this seems to be taken subjectively, depending on who side of the fence you are on.

While we keep buying into the 'good and 'evil concepts, we continue to create more 'evil' doings, as retaliation for 'other' evil doings. An eye creates a blind world.

I think this may be a rant for this topic, but I think in the context of Satan, Evil and people bringing up Bush it can be relevant.

lucifer is not satan. lucifer is a combination of two latin terms (lucem ferre)that means "bringer/bearer of light" it is actually a reference to Venus as the morning star. (which rises before the sun does, thus "bearing" the "light" of the sun) this is simple to confirm, go out side at sunrise. venus is extremely bright. (btw, isaiah 14:12 is the ONLY time "lucifer" is used in the entire bible. )the original Hebrew of isaiah 14:12 reads "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O Helel, son of Shahar" helel is the hebrew way of saying "lucifer" Shahar was a Babylonian god of the dawn, and Helel was his son, the morning star which we now call Venus.
(more on it the church of LDS and http://web2.iadfw.net/~elo/news/venus.html )

now that that is out of the way. what is satan: satan is a personification of the negative energy force, (where "god" is positive) but it is not completely negative, it contains a bit of positive energy (just as "god" contains a little negative energy) negative energy makes up half of all known existence (yin) satan is AN avatar for this energy. he is not the only one. this isn't to say satan may not be an actual entity. he probably is. the force that satan is a part of is natural, and actually needed. it balances out the positive energy. the universe is in constantly balanced perfectly, and we go through cycles of good and bad. unfortunately the church has used satan as a tool of control and taught people to fear the negative energy he is part of. (and which makes up half of ALL existence)

I also use Google and the first entries do not agree with the others. If in fact Lucifer was the first fallen Angel of Pride, what became of him? There seems to be some discrepancy as to if there were two angels. You cant exactly take the first entry in Google as verbatim. The site has no real back-up to its theory.

We will need more in depth research I believe.

Er - you can find some more in-depth research earlier in this thread. The observations in my first posting here still stand, for example - and is the link provided in my last posting not working or something??

Satan is also a handy explanation for evil that allows theologists to excuse God for evil acts, again reflecting the simple-minded Manichean duality of good and evil that evolved in the Dark and Middle Ages.

Of course, you can really fox them when you start asking things "why did God allow Lucifer to become evil?", "why did He create evil at all?" etc.

You then start to go down roads that get close to suggesting that God Himself is a prisoner of destiny as much as any of us, and that omniscience and omnipotence have their limitations, or that God's reasons "pass our understanding".

That last one is one of the reasons I tend towards atheism - what is the point of a god who plays hard to get?

Well, exeeuuse ME Wertz, if I dont take the website you posted as the absolute and undeniable truth, as posted by them , 'Written by Jeannie Weyrick with Christ, Archangel Raphael, and St. Germain'. I suppose they simply channel this info. Since they are 'World Light Fellowship', I guess their theology degrees and knowledge are world renowned!

And so it begins, at least it took 5 posts...

More in the same vein, albeit not from the tired, trite mountaintop of worldly cynicism.

- sigh. Aren't the Lefties the ones who want to separate religion and politics, yet here one is executing a vicious partisan drive-by attack in the religion thread.

A somewhat reasoned take, although still remarkably cynical, or uninformed. Unfortunately, Moif decides to take a gratuitous political shot as well.

Nope, unless you believe that all policemen are evil. That the socialist controlling healthcare is evil. That the pilot who willingly takes a plane into the air knowing that something COULD go wrong and her plane could crash into an apartment building or daycare center, aye, she's evil too. That anybody who fails to live up to a perfect ideal is evil. (Gee, you're starting to sound just like biblical theology.)

Now that was an even handed course correction, wasn't it? Ya just couldn't resist the cheap shot, could you?



Simplistic and innacurate is the only way I can describe your perspective of the role Satan plays in theology AND sociology. As for the "rest" not having a scapegoat, I'll leave the litany of non-religious scapegoats adopted by "the rest" to another time and thread. Suffice it to say, the "rest" have been quite successful in finding/creating plenty of scapegoats.

Ahhh, someone actually says something positive about a religious concept. What a surprise.

In truth, from a sociological point of view, Artemise's last point is incredibly important. People do bad things to others all the time, and unfortunately, many times, the victim and perp have to live in proximity to one another. A supernatural personification of evil serves as a "reason" that allows people to shunt to the side the natural (and frequently counter-productive) urge to beat the crap out of the person who wronged them. As noted, is simplifies the process of "bygones", without which civil society would be impossible. "Incarnating" the depth, breadth, and scope of human evil in a supernatural personification is very useful for society, not simply as a tool used by the oppressors to cynically manipulate all the sheeple, a con that many of you are proud to be too smart and rational to fall for .

Imputing the incarnation of evil to a physical, temporal form is, as 9/11 demonstrates, incredibly dangerous. Any personal sacrifice is legitimate when one is battling the "Great Satan", no cost to high to prevent evil from triumphing over the world.

Evil comes in degrees, and one of the most dangerous things you can do is mis-estimate it. Underestimate at your peril, overestimate and you're crying wolf.

The definition of Satan is also "the accuser of the brethren." He is in constant opposition to God, tempting humankind to use its God-given free will to rebel against the Almighty. He doesn't care who gets hurt as a result.

Where the Church Fathers went wrong was to use the Greco/Roman faun or satyr to characterize what he looks like. The incongruity of finding a creature like that existing in nature did not lend to the credibility of the figure, who is treated as real enough to influence people in the Bible.

The fact is, Satan can't talk anybody into doing anything they really don't want to do. He weighs in on the side of selfishness and excess. He's the guy who, when you feel good about yourself for having done a good thing, whispers, "Yes, but...," robbing you of joy. He is a spoiler.

I talk about him as though he is real, because I believe he is real. But I do not fear him, and I don't think about him all the time. Whatever you think about most assumes power in your life, extreme examples aside. If I concentrate on the goodness of God, it will produce within me a much more positive feeling than if I dwell on the devil and his deception.

As far as seeing the devil in people--you are capable of seeing good and/or evil in a person. Our behavior reveals our character.

In advanced Masonic studies, the god that is acknowledged is Lucifer, the "god of light." This is why some Christians think Freemasonry is of the devil, who was described as "son of the morning" prior to his fall from heaven. In any case, you've got to form your own conclusions.

If you would like sources on what I've written, I'll be glad to dig them up. Can't right now, though.