Should we stop tying Isreal's hands and let them go after terrorist groups?

CP

What do you mean?

Israel is already going after the terrorist groups. Why do you think they tried to assassinate Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi ?

And they were promptly condemned by GW for it. It just doesn't make sense. [Yes, I am criticizing a Conservative]

CP

Israel probably shows some restraint in deference to the US, but very little. If we are to give them the green light both privately and publicly, we must be ready to stand with them in an all-out war. I don't think we're prepared tactically and politically for that right now.

Soon though.

I'm sorry. I don't understand, which part doesn't make sense? That GW Bush condemned Israel?

If so...

For once I agree with Bush. This attack was a disaster for the 'Road map'. All it did was to alienate abu Mazen from his people by demonstrating his helplessness towards Israel, and inflame Hamas to further blood shed.

It does not matter if the other person attacks you. IF you want peace, you must not respond. No matter how hard or painful that may be.

Responding will not bring peace. I think Bush understands this, and I hope he holds Sharon responsible for what he did. After all, why should America continue to sponsor an Israeli war of attrition?

I see what you mean, however, would the US just stand by and let terrorists attack...of course not. How can we ask other countries to do something we wouldn't be prepared to do.

CP

If you're going to let them off their "leash" I hope you're going to stop feeding them as well. As long as they want to be free to do their own thing without American intervention, they should be willing to do it without American money or artillery.

And Conservpat, I don't believe our forces would make a habit of firing rockets or driving tanks through residential areas in the pursuit of a terrorist.

Edited to change address... apologiesConservpat

I think we have to give them cash, they are protecting themselves against terror. Also, Goamerica hasn't posted here.

CP

If this is how Israel acts while on a leash, firing rockets and driving tanks through residential areas, do you really want to support what they might do if let off the leash?

I understand the terrorist attacks kill innocent people all the time in Israel, but to me that is not justification for Israel to retaliate with the slaughter of innocent Palestinians as well.

It's not like Israelis target Palestinians, terrorists go after civilians, Israeal can't just stand there and take that.

CP

I don't see how you can equate the two. Palestinian terrorists target innocents. Israelis target the terrorists.

How would you tell Israel to handle the current situation?

They certainly don't make any effort not to kill innocent people when they retaliate. They're firing rockets into residential areas. I doubt if any military personnel really expects not to injure or kill bystanders in an attack like that. And they are certainly no more careful with their military incursions into territory inhabited by the Palestinians.

ZMag: Reflections on Rachel Corrie's death
Israeli bulldozer crushes activist
An interesting number offered in the latter article is that while 717 Israelis had been killed at the time, there were 2,317 Palestinians who had been killed.

Guardian archives: Carnage Catologue
The above includes casualties and attacks on both sides, but some of them emphasize the general carelessness Israeli forces take in avoiding civilian casualties.

Guardian: experiences with the IDF

I shudder to think what kind of numbers we might have were they to be off their "leash."

[Edited to respond to Passion]
I didn't say Israel necessarily targeted civilians (at least not all the time) but they certainly make little to no attempt not to injure or kill Palestinian civilians. I would suggest they handle the manner in a cautious and civil manner, no matter how their counterparts might act. There might perhaps be fewer fanatical Palestinians if Israel made honest attempts to kill only those responsible for terrorist actions instead of retaliating indiscriminately.

It's impossible to judge if they try not to kill civilians or not, it is impossible to tell.

CP

In case you have not noticed the leash has been off since 911. The only real question is wheather or not we should put it back on. The PLO was defeated and exiled after being defeated and returned only after the first Persian War. The only thing that came of this was terrorism and bloodshed. I say we let the Nation of Israel claim the territory, dispite the 3.5 million that oppose them, and keep moveing east. The same way we civilizied this continant. I may change my mind, but not my aim. War is hell but civil chaos is worse.

Did you not look at any of those links, Pat? I happened to be viewing the thread and know you spent no more than a couple minutes before your response was posted. The number of children killed and the ways in which some people have been killed by the IDF would tend to show that they take few measures to minimize the number of civilian casualties when taking action.

It certainly wasn't impossible to tell when they ran over American activist Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer. The SMH site I offered has even a picture of Rachel before the bulldozer ran over her, and backed over her a second time for good measure.

Also from that article, in addition to the casualty numbers I already mentioned...
...in case you decide to ignore the links a second time around.

[Edited to respond to Anarchy]We "civilized" this continent through murder/genocide and stealing. It would have been nice to think we learned something from that.

I don't believe it's up to the United States to "let Israel off its leash." I don't think when it comes down to what he thinks is best for Israel's internal security, Ariel Sharon consults with Washington before striking back against Haamas.

Bush II is finding out what Clinton, Bush I, Reagan and Carter all learned before him: The Middle East is a quagmire of hatred and not at all subject to the dictates of any American President.

Israel has the most sophisticated military forces and is the only nuclear power in that corner of the world. Maybe its time to wean them from the largesse of the billions in foreign aid and military support they receive from the U.S. and let them work this mess out for themselves.

i am with that, are schools could use the money. plus we have are own wars to fight, not thiers.

I think Sharon at this point needs US pressure for peace to cover up his failed policy of participating in a never ending cycle of violence.

Heavy pressure from the US will allow him to make concessions and blame them on Washington that he could not otherwise justify to his right-wing supporters.

(I did not say that Israel is not facing terrorist attacks.)

Why should they?

When's the last time a Palestinian coughed up a terrorist? These people are helping to harbor and protect terrorist cells. If the Israelis know where these terrorist scum are, the people around them sure as hell do.

But I still think Israel makes reasonable efforts to avoid civilian casualties. But they will not endanger their own soldier's lives at the sake of people harboring the terrorists.

Face it - Israel could just fire rockets from helicopters miles away and never step foot into the West bank or gaza if they truly didn't care about civilian casualties. But they don't.

But fundamentally, the Palestinians are a people who have been exiled from every country they've been in and are making claim to a land that was never theirs to begin with. The PLO was created in 1964, 3 years before the 1967 6 day war, and established it's covenant that calls for the destruction of Israel the same year. They were blowing up Israelis BEFORE the 6 day war they're whining about now.

These scumbags have been killing kids since 1922 and have rejected every opportunity for peace presented to them.

Hell yes Israel should be let off it's leash. It is a civilized democracy that has a right to eliminate the root cause of attacks against them. If the Palestinian leaders can't crawl out from under a rock without the risk of having an RPG shot down their throat, they can't be ordering more homicide bombings.

And I wouldn't stop with them. The Palestinians are being armed by Syria, Libya, Iran, and Saudi Arabia (of course, the United States Republic of Iraq used to fund them as well). Israel should have the right and be given every resource it needs to stop the flow of those funds and weapons.

It is a mistake to simply assume that since the Palestinean population isn't kicking the terrorists out that they are all complicit in the violence. Those people live in poverty and despair, and the constant fear of Israeli reprisals. At the same time, the political body that is supposed to be overseeing them has terrorists connections of their own. They're stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. I'm beginning to think a Palestinean civil war is not only inevitable, but the only chance for peace.

how do you respect people that buldoze your home, force you into poverty, then kill you for standing up. i dont see where the respect should be givein. now if palistine just was killing some otherwise non provokeing people, then i could see calling them terrorists and killers.

That is as absurd as suggesting that all Palestineans are terrorists.

Normally I'd disagree with this position, but you do make a pretty convincing argument.

terrorist is a hot word right now, i am just guessing that. i dont think it is applied correctly to the groups in palinstine.
to go with one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter is something you could use. i dont agree with the methods those groups empoly, but they dont have a super power pouring money into thier bank accounts either. when you see jornalists(whom are shot on purpose by isreals soldiers) takeing thier pics of isreal, all of thier guns are military M-16's.
these are in the hands of civialians also. isreal has a charges against them from the u.n. of course this will never be carried out. isreal also has a good thing in history of attacking one of are navy ships, for hours on end. When the soldiers on board were fleeing in lifeboats, attack helicopters opened fire on the liferafts. A nice girl from olympia washington, protesting some common bulldozeing was nicely ran over, do you think anyone will get heat there? when isreals soldiers go to find "terrorists", this can result in rocket salvos into civilan populated areas, killing with no care. daily life for a person that is from palinstine is a general hell. And for some reason we advocate that these groups are terrorists. i think guerilla fighters are a more suitable term to be used. of course me saying any of this will leave me with the mark of the anti-semite, simply becaues i oppose thier methods. then i ask myself will there ever be peace in that region, i doubt it. its funny how the only thing that will stop the fighting, is niether group will destroy religous artifacts. to me that is truly amuseing. but that can be antother thread. but to get to the topic, i say sure let of this leash, but we should pull funding to, it could be put to better use in the u.s then supporting genocide.

There is no leash on Israelis.

It's the eye for an eye, and take an extra eye if you can. The conflict has lost all semblance of anything other than vengence.

The United States cannot extricate itself from Israeli influence in the eyes of the Muslim world. The Israelis without the initial backing of the US would not have become a nation.

Israelis feel the US has no right to tell them they can't "defend" themselves from Palestinian terrorist attacks. I put "defend" in parentheses because the response of Israelis is not always proportionate to the casualties they have suffered. Both sides tend to ratchet up their responses.

Palestinians need a place to live. The terrorists among them, in their efforts to punish the Israelis, are allowing their own people to suffer the consequences of their activities. No overtures on the part of the US will stop the terrorists from attacking Israelis.

Let's pull away from Israel and the Palestinians for a while. Throwing money at the situation is obviously not working. The US cannot solve this problem.

The Bush administration tried pulling away from this situation. Our war on terror and our actions in pressuring arab and muslim countries have spent a lot of our political capital. The is an expectation in the Muslim World that there should be some trade off for this action. Some type of peace in Israel is that trade off.

As for comments that Israel should not worry about causing the loss of innocent life, that directly contradicts Sharon's comments about Israel being a nation of law. Assassination is not a tool of justice.

In the absence of US/World pressure these groups, led by their most extreme members will continue to fight.

I think Eeyore's got that right. Sharon would be disappointed with us if we didn't publicly scold him for these attacks. Politically he needs it, and it's just part of the service.

But aside from that, what will it take to get a stable peace over there? Well, IMO to start with Israel needs to pull all the settlements out of Gaza and wall it off, the full Berlin Wall thing. That'd stop a lot of the attacks. But to settle things down enough to where a Palestinian state would be a realistic options, Hamas has to be destroyed. Hard to see how that could happen unless the Palestinians decide to do it themselves. If they need US assistance and hand-holding to do it -- and they may, the Palestinian Authority doesn't seem strong enough to take on Hamas at present -- give it to them. Of course, Arafat will have to finally go because he'd never agree to it, since he talks peace in English but encourages Hamas in Arabic.

Who would really argue that Israel shoud "take it on the chin" or "turn the other cheek"?

The terrorist among the Palestinians ARE being harbored by the Palestinian population. Not everyone in it, but by someone in it. This needs to stop.

It is a bogus argument that Israel should ignore all attacks against it. That would lead to even more attacks.

Peace can only be acheived if the Palestinian people themselves make a concious effort to expel these terrorists. When the leaders of these groups say that they will "leave no Jew in Palestine" or some other garbage along these lines, it is obvious that no amount of concessions by Israel will lead to peace. These terrorists need to be expelled by the Palestinians themselves.

The latest bus bombing was 17 dead, over 80 injured. The "retaliation" lead to what 7 dead Palestinians, four of the dead being Hamas members? NONE of those killed by the bus bombings were Ariel Sharon's agents, I will wager.

The Palestinians must realize that the terrorists are pushing Israel towards the breaking point. If they reach that point, hundreds, if not thousands will die, most of them innocent Palestinians. THEY should be working towards averting that, since nothing Israel has done either way (more retaliation OR more concessions) seems to be making a difference.

So, how are the women and kids on buses, at synagogues, and weddings provoking the Palestinians?

Don't you people get it? The Palestinian slime aren't blowing the people up provoking them. They are blowing up women and children who have nothing to do with anything!! Your logic suggests Iraqis have every right to come over here and blow our kids up because they are *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** at Bush and Rumsfield.

Finally, there is no "provoking". Article 15 of the palestinian covenant calls for the destruction of Israel. Kids are taught Israel does not exist. They are taught the holocaust never happened. They are taught it is a great honor and privilege to give up your life killing Jews.

You people actually buy into this oppression and occupation crap as if that's what this is really about. And it's not. The oppression is their reward for rejecting peace for the last 80 years and acting like a bunch of uncivilized parasites. If they wanted peace and a better life, they could have it tomorrow.



That's absurd. Harboring terrorists is no different than being a terrorist. Israel doesn't simply pick out a group of Palestinians to kill in protest. They target specific areas where these nutcases try to stand in the way (like the woman mowed down by a bulldozer a few months ago).

These people become human shields and are *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** because that strategy fails.

Do they deserve to die? Of course not. But they have a choice. Israel has no choice.

Yes it is a bogus argument. Why is it being introduced? If it has been made in this thread by someone else please quote it because I missed that.

As for the debate question of letting Israel off of its leash, I think that if Israel is on a leash it has an extremely long tether.

As stated earlier, our pressure on Israel is probably politically helpful to Sharon right now.

I am not ignoring anything. I know civilians were killed, but it is impossible to tell the circumstances in which they died, it could have been accidental, or maybe they were armed.

CP

like the women and children whoms homes are dozed, what do they do, where do they go, who is there to give palistine an real army to fight with. i dont think we would like it very much if say some other nation with cash started funding palinsitne, i wonder how isreal would react to some bulldozeing huh? this is a silly double standard and a load of crap to boot!!!!

They prefer suicide bombing busses.

They get funding from terrorist organizations instead.

Probably the same way they feel when the cafe they are eating at explodes while they're inside.

Okay, if that's how you feel.

CP

I've always thought Isreal should pull out of everywhere immediately. Bring them all back inside Isreal proper. Once inside, let the bombings continue with no retaliation. Prove to the world, that after getting what the Pals want, the bombings continue. Let them prove to the world what Isreal is really up against. Let them prove what the real Palestinian end-game is.

Afterwards, Isreal would have just the excuse it needs to move out in full force. Bring about another 6 day war.

After the dust settles and the smoke clears, Isreal remains inside it's internationally recognized borders, and peace comes thoughout the land

--cheers

It isn't impossible to tell, Pat.

Invisible Death of Iain Hook
Israel Silent on Food Warehouse Razing
Rachel Corries (picture included)
Amnesty International: killing children

Whether some taking part in this topic feel the means in which Israel retaliates are justified or not, it seems evident that they take little to no measures in protecting against civilian casualties.

I've been referring to Israel's "leash" with quotations because like Eeyore, if Israel is on a leash today, I would have to agree it's an incredibly long one. They don't seem to hold themselves any more accountable for civilian casualties than the terrorists on the other side. When considering a conflict between an established government and terrorists I would think the government more capable of behaving in a legitimate manner than the terrorists.

I think Danya's quote says it well:
He who chases monsters must see that he not become a monster himself.


I would say Israel has not expressed caution in this regard, and I'd like to see us continue holding whatever "leash" it is we may be holding.

how do you, as a nation defend yoursefl from a stronger force, when they are takeing your land. last time i checked, hamas or whatever does not nor is allowed the nice things like tanks and attack helicopters, with rocket pods. what would you do in there shoes, let your wife just get shot and say hey, i am blind to it. they fight with what they have on an uneven field the u.s seems to support, regardless of how wrong it truly is. to make my point more clear, would we let canada bulldoze u.s homes. when hamas tries to get weapons its some massive scandal, but yet these same people enjoy watching tanks roll into areas with women and children and open up, i tell you, either you are sick, or just evil.

Well, I am neither. I am not cheering when Palestinians get killed, only when militant leaders do, is that so evil or sick...no. I am remorseful when a Palestinian child gets killed, just as I am when a bus full of Israeli children get killed. However, it is unfair for the US to advise Israel to do something the US wouldn't even be prepared to do.

CP

If the American KKK were going up to Canada, and blowing up Canadian school busses, then I'd answer with a resounding "Yes".

These houses are the personal property of Hamas leaders and other terrorists. Lets not forget that

--cheers

Israel Silent on Warehouse Razing

Not all of them, DP.

Nobody is taking their land because the Palestinians never had it. There never has been a Palestine! There is no "nation".

Why do we have to keep teaching history over and over to people making arguments without any basis?

The PLO was established in 1964 by your great liberator, Arafat. He immediately starting his reign of terror against the Jews. Article 15 of the PLO covenant called for the destruction of all Jews (actually, the literal translation was the "liquidation" of all Jews). Egypt and Jordan owned the land the Palestinians were squatting on.

The reign of terror continued on through 1967. All the Arab nations surrounded Israel and attack was imminent. Civilians were being shot at the borders and all kinds of artillery was amassed. The west bank and gaza were used as staging areas for the attack.

So, Israel pre-emptively struck to save it's skin and started the 6 day war. And they won. They took about 20% of the land the Palestinians were squatting on for tactical reasons and Jordan took the other 80%.

How come you're not asking the Palestinians to blow up Jordanian babies? After all, they "took" 80% of the land everybody's whining about.

The Palestinians were slaughtering Jews long before land was an issue.

My simple answer

Yes! Let the israeli's go through its stages and STOP THESE TERRORIST.

Digital,

I totally agree with your suggestion. This would prove once and for all that Israel is not the aggressor.

How can anyone defend the actions of a few Palestinians when the Hamas leader stated clearly that "All Jewish Zionist must die" and that "Bush encouraged Sharon to kill Palestinians." The intent of Hamas, Hezbullah and the other terrorist organizations is to destroy the Israeli people and turn Israel into Palestine.

Excerpts from the Hamas Charter:



How do you reason with someone who will not be reasoned with?

yes and the the people of palinstine were nice and content until somone kindly let themselves in. i dont know how, or who was thinking what when the idea of an isreal statehood was to be made. i do know some history of that region, arafat, that is not his real name by the way. and he is a higly educated and devoted person. but no one knows where exactly he was born either. if i am not wrong, Palestinian people make up a majority of jordans population, but there they are safe from isreal, they are also not treated like animals. these so called terrorists are mostly young kids, whose goal is to make it 24 hours, something they openly admit might not happen. isreal is brutal, sharon as a general has lead mass killings. overkill would be a correct word. Palestinians did not fly there way to some part of the world and take some land. they were actually i think just liveing thier lives so to speak, the jewish religion and or culture has been wandering the world for along time as vagrants basically, when the would immigrate into a country they did not practice the fine art of intergrateing. rabbical tribunals and or laws were there own goverment, spinoza is a rather good case of rabbical law. this usually left them to a buddy system we shall say. and of course this lead to a racial respones most of the time, such as in russia and germany and egypt and so on. thier religon the hardliners(multiple jewish religions) call for the rest of humanity to be slaves to them, this is no joke. during WWII no one wanted anyting to do with the jews, they were a blacksheep of a race, this includes america and our ally england,because of thier history we shall say. this is what makes me believe how isreal kinda got its place. and the hardliners are very much alive there, i have seen some nice footage of children attacking people. kids, young kids. isreal so called protecting of itself, or exspanding its land, with military force, on a far less equipped people have lead me to feel shall we say for Palestinians. they stand no chance against isreal, but yet they fight, its really only america that supports this.
are good allies also have a nice person in our prison here for being a traitor. then isreal had the nerve to demand his release, after he had sold isreal our weapons projects, i think he was even labeled a hero. i find it hard that any american would blindly support isreal, unless themselves were jewish. that is not being mean its being true. isreal will kill americans like they will kill Palestinians. this is true also. and just about anyone else, and of course the nice war crimes will never come to bear. why should they isreal is better then any other nation.

That was the worst written post yet on this forum. Normally I would never make a bold statement on someone's writings, but there are times in that post where I had absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. I did catch one part which makes me so angry that I can barely contain my rage.



That sounds an awful lot like you're saying that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust and the pogroms in Russia. I don't know where you learned about Judaism but if it weren't so terrifying I would laugh. Seriously. Your facts are full of hate and misconception and I for one will not post on these forums again until you are either banned for your blatant racism or you apologize to me, my living relatives who endured untold hardships in Russia and Eastern europe, and the family I never got to meet because they were killed in Germany.

nothing i said had hate in it.

or let me say it this way, did i at any point say i am an anti semite. no i did not, or use vulgar language and or slander.

In early Europe the Jews were blamed for the death of Christ. They were not allowed to own property, so they had to find other ways to subsist. It was, in effect, the anti-Semites who caused these resourceful people to start banks and find other ways to not only subsist but thrive.

So why blame the Jews for playing the hand they were dealt?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And either no one is reading my post or they dismiss it because they believe it to be naive and/or impractical, but--

Why doesn't the US pull out of the area and let the people involved settle things? We are complicating the situation in innumerable ways, and we are incurring the hatred and distrust of both sides in our role as Big Brother.

If we can't help, let's be honest about it. The point has already been made in this thread that you cannot reason with people who will not be reasoned with.

Edited

Paladin I did not ignore your opinion, only I feel it is the opposite of what we should do. We need to get this Palestine state created. And the US is in the best position to help make this happen for the best interests of everyone in the region and for the stability of the most dangerous and economically significant region in the world (for the United States) Walking away at this point is like locking to people full of hatred in their heart in a dark room overnight. There is likely to be a murder.

From a different post.
Pretending there is no national group of people called Palestinians is ridiculous. When the initial proposal was made to create a state of Israel it was to be something like 600,000 jews and 500,000 palestinians. The state of Israel is now specifically a Jewish state, native arabs do not have full citizenship rights. And the six-days war territories are occupied. What people are not going to start getting desperate a generation long occupation?

Yeah, we need to reward them for blowing babies up. Great idea.




Who said they weren't a national group of people? Please point that out. I said they never had their own land to take back and they have never had a government. They've had leaders to be sure, but nothing that qualifies them as a sovereign nation.

Jewish Palestinians created Israel. Where did you get those numbers?

So, because somebody "screwed up" and made Israel [which by the way was there before Palestine] Palestinians have the right to kill innocent Israelis? And I would love to know why and how Israelis would go about killing Americans, this makes no sense at all and is fairly insulting.

CP