Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Mount Rushmore, V2.0
America's Debate > Everything Else > History Debate
Google
Bikerdad
So, I was watching The Simpsons just a few minutes ago, and there was a scene wherein a mini-golf model of Mount Rushmore was destroyed by Homer. That got me to thinking, which leads us to the question for debate:

If Mount Rushmore were being carved today, what 4 Presidents do you think should be put on it?

Expanding the field to any Americans, what 4 Americans do you think should be put on it?
Google
akaCG
If Mount Rushmore were being carved today, what 4 Presidents do you think should be put on it?

Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln definitely belong there. I'd replace TR with FDR, who (love him or hate him) was substantially much more consequential.

Gray Seal
I do not want any politician on Rushmore 2. Honor science. Honor inventors. Honor good everyday people.
Mrs. Pigpen
I think T Roosevelt deserves a spot up there. This is the guy who took a bullet in the chest and gave a speech after! That was one amazing human being. I'd probably keep the Mount as-is.
If we were going for "most influential people", I suppose the four I'd choose are probably Edison, Ford, MLK, and Steve Jobs.
Just off the top of my head, haven't put a lot of thought into it.
Bikerdad
If Mount Rushmore were being carved today, what 4 Presidents do you think should be put on it?
Washington, Madison, Jefferson. I'm conflicted on Lincoln. On the CONSEQUENTIAL scale, he deserves to be there. On the "good President" scale? Yes and no. I think the case can be made for Calvin Coolidge.

Expanding the field to any Americans, what 4 Americans do you think should be put on it?
Washington, Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin. #4 is tougher, but I think I'd go with Frederick Douglass.
AuthorMusician
Expanding the field to any Americans, what 4 Americans do you think should be put on it?
I'm having a hard time imagining other people than what already exists, probably from having been awed in my early adulthood by the naked magnificence of the monument.

It does seem appropriate, as the newer generations come of age and bring with them tolerance and even the embracing of racial diversity and mixtures, to include a Native American, an African American, an Hispanic, and someone of mixed racial background like Tiger Woods, but not necessarily him. Maybe the modern monument would need to include a few more heads.

Still, this work of art has a timelessness about it and a distinct historical context. I don't think it'd be possible to recreate now because the nation doesn't seem to agree about anything. Maybe it's just illusion, but it seems to me the people during the time of the planning/sculpting were more on the same page.

In defense of TR, he did push the idea of national parks forward in the face of great opposition. His granite mug belongs there for that reason alone.
Bikerdad
Jefferson - the Idea of America
Washington - the Instantiation of America
Roosevelt - the Place of America

Lincoln - the ?? of America
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Sep 28 2015, 05:40 PM) *
Jefferson - the Idea of America
Washington - the Instantiation of America
Roosevelt - the Place of America


How about….

Lincoln - the United States of America
AuthorMusician
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 28 2015, 05:59 PM) *
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Sep 28 2015, 05:40 PM) *
Jefferson - the Idea of America
Washington - the Instantiation of America
Roosevelt - the Place of America


How about….

Lincoln - the United States of America

Yes, more so than before. Serious people (meaning those who can be taken seriously) no longer consider leaving the union a viable concept. The South can and has risen again, but not in the Civil War context. Even while living in Memphis, TN, few people identified with the Old South. Some did, but they aren't long for this world, leaving the heavy Magnolia aroma in the still, humid summer air for the rest of us.

I'm sure someone is going to point out that there are still people around who want to leave the union. Fine, but I don't take them seriously, nor do most sober people. And yes, I am aware that on occasion the idea hits the ballots only to whither away. Most citizens like to be citizens of the United States of America and wish to remain so.
akaCG
QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 26 2015, 11:44 AM) *
I do not want any politician on Rushmore 2. ...
...

OK.

QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 26 2015, 11:44 AM) *
...
... Honor science. ...
...

OK. Please name the scientist(s) whose visage(s) you think should be up for consideration in regards to being carved into "Rushmore 2".

QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 26 2015, 11:44 AM) *
...
... Honor inventors. ...
...

OK. Please name the inventor(s) whose visage(s) you think should be up for consideration in regards to being carved into "Rushmore 2".


QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 26 2015, 11:44 AM) *
...
... Honor good everyday people.

OK. Please name the "good everyday [person]/people" whose visage(s) you think should be up for consideration in regards to being carved into "Rushmore 2".
Google
lo rez
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 28 2015, 03:59 PM) *
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Sep 28 2015, 05:40 PM) *
Jefferson - the Idea of America
Washington - the Instantiation of America
Roosevelt - the Place of America


How about….

Lincoln - the United States of America



Mic Drop!

Gray Seal
To find a list of possible great scientist you can do a search. Here is one such list. I have not narrowed the list down to who I would put at the top. I would have to randomly pick one as so many have contributed significantly.

As to a great common person I would also suggest a random pick. Regular people can nominate others. A random pick can put one on Rushmore.

None of those on the current Rushmore come close to being worthy of recognition above any I have just mentioned.

-------

Politicians are not equal to greatness.

-------

Lincoln...the one State of America.
Bikerdad
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Sep 28 2015, 04:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Sep 28 2015, 05:59 PM) *
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Sep 28 2015, 05:40 PM) *
Jefferson - the Idea of America
Washington - the Instantiation of America
Roosevelt - the Place of America


How about….

Lincoln - the United States of America

Yes, more so than before. Serious people (meaning those who can be taken seriously) no longer consider leaving the union a viable concept. The South can and has risen again, but not in the Civil War context. Even while living in Memphis, TN, few people identified with the Old South. Some did, but they aren't long for this world, leaving the heavy Magnolia aroma in the still, humid summer air for the rest of us.

I'm sure someone is going to point out that there are still people around who want to leave the union. Fine, but I don't take them seriously, nor do most sober people. And yes, I am aware that on occasion the idea hits the ballots only to whither away. Most citizens like to be citizens of the United States of America and wish to remain so.


undoubtedly, you also support shotgun marriages. (Shotgun marriage, after the wedding, using a shotgun to keep a marriage together.) We are faced with a challenge: Whenever the topic of secession is raised, the idea that it could be accomplished peacefully is heavily discounted. We have a history with three secession/independence attempts. All were bloody, two were successful, one failed. Being a moderately pragmatic people, we take our own history into account more than that of others. The devolution of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union shows that an amicable (moderately) no-fault divorce at the State/Nation-State/Empire level is possible. History demonstrates though that it is more often accomplished with exhausted entities, not vigorous ones. We are not, I suspect, either exhausted or exasperated enough for such a devolution. Nor are we quite angry enough for a revolution, yet. I implore folks though to avoid confusing "yet" with "never". As you note, the cost/benefit ratio for most folks still weighs in favor of continued union. The CBR though is constantly changing.


QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 29 2015, 08:14 AM) *
None of those on the current Rushmore come close to being worthy of recognition above any I have just mentioned.


Really? So you would rate Sigmund Freud as being more worthy of recognition than George Washington? You would rank Trofim Lysenko above Abraham Lincoln?
akaCG
QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 29 2015, 10:14 AM) *
...
As to a great common person I would also suggest a random pick. Regular people can nominate others. A random pick can put one on Rushmore.
...

How about we just put up a giant mirror up there, facing downwards toward the walking trail? That way, the common people who visit could look up and see ... THEMSELVES!

Gray Seal
Yes. I do rate scientists higher than George Washington or Abraham Lincoln for having greater benefits to humanity.

A mirror does have some merits to it better than a Rushmore. It would identify the strength of a community correctly as its people. Rushmore is an interesting sculpture accomplishment but its portrayal is a highly politically motivated to please government display.
AuthorMusician
QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 29 2015, 05:39 PM) *
Yes. I do rate scientists higher than George Washington or Abraham Lincoln for having greater benefits to humanity.

A mirror does have some merits to it better than a Rushmore. It would identify the strength of a community correctly as its people. Rushmore is an interesting sculpture accomplishment but its portrayal is a highly politically motivated to please government display.

Maybe it should be of Manhattan Project scientists?

I don't put political leadership into the same field as scientific inquiry, although Jefferson was famous for being a kind of scientist before such a thing actually existed as a profession. Good old Ben Franklin was experimenting too.

As giant busts go, Rushmore is way better than most, capturing the essence of four men rather than trying to idealize them. Jefferson exhibits his soft side; Washington his determined yet inscrutable side; Lincoln the suffering he endured, and Roosevelt that big S-Eating grin in the face of opposition. Viewing the sculpture in different lights changes the entire impact, so nature plays a big role in the overall experience. It's about government, sure, but much more than that. It's about the character of a nation for one. There are many other ways to interpret good art, and I find Rushmore to be among the best realistic sculptures our nation possesses.

That it's situated in South Dakota also has meaning.
Bikerdad
QUOTE(akaCG @ Sep 29 2015, 02:41 PM) *
QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 29 2015, 10:14 AM) *
...
As to a great common person I would also suggest a random pick. Regular people can nominate others. A random pick can put one on Rushmore.
...

How about we just put up a giant mirror up there, facing downwards toward the walking trail? That way, the common people who visit could look up and see ... THEMSELVES!


I actually thought of something along those lines, only a bit more high tech. Massive television/holograph screens projecting random different people.

QUOTE(Gray Seal @ Sep 29 2015, 03:39 PM) *
Yes. I do rate scientists higher than George Washington or Abraham Lincoln for having greater benefits to humanity.


Your answer demonstrates an utter ignorance of science and history coupled with an irrational perspective on both leadership and government. Before showcasing further depths of foolishness, I suggest you do some research into the two "scientists" that you would put above Washington and Lincoln.
JohnfrmCleveland
Ted Cruz, Carly Fiorina, Donald Trump, and John Boehner.

Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Oct 1 2015, 02:11 PM) *
Ted Cruz, Carly Fiorina, Donald Trump, and John Boehner.


So…we're thinking not just a series of large granite faces but also a bird sanctuary. smile.gif
(I can't think of any other way to capture the image of Trump's hair except with a series of very large scale nests)

I was going to say we could go with fiction and pick Johnny Appleseed, but I just looked it up and apparently Johnny Appleseed was a real person.
I had no idea!
akaCG
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Oct 1 2015, 02:11 PM) *
Ted Cruz, Carly Fiorina, Donald Trump, and John Boehner.

Nah.

Hedy Lamarr

Eric Hoffer

Jim Thorpe

And ...

Ben Franklin

AuthorMusician
QUOTE(JohnfrmCleveland @ Oct 1 2015, 02:11 PM) *
Ted Cruz, Carly Fiorina, Donald Trump, and John Boehner.

Heh, maybe for a national pop-up book sold in the gift store.
Bikerdad
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ Oct 1 2015, 04:03 PM) *
I was going to say we could go with fiction and pick Johnny Appleseed, but I just looked it up and apparently Johnny Appleseed was a real person.
I had no idea!
Johnny wouldn't be a good one, the teetotalers would be livid. He wasn't spreading the yumminess of apples for granny's pies, it was all about Hard Cider. Which, I might add, tastes better than beer. (Admittedly, not a difficult accomplishment IMNSHO)
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.