Full Version: Social Security
I am told that Jaimie is knowledgeable on this and would love to hear more.
From what I have been reading it seems it has gotten out of hand, and is not what was really intended. My opinion is Roosevelt created a monster.
From what I have been reading it seems it has gotten out of hand, and is not what was really intended. My opinion is Roosevelt created a monster.
While I'm not sure how much of an expert I am regarding this matter, I feel I know enough to concur with you, MOUSE - Roosevelt did create a monster.
The Social Security Act of 1935 was originally intended to provide "old age" assistance to persons 65 or older that had worked in certain industries. The concept of social security being a "retirement" fund had not yet been born. I think it is critical to realize that the average life span in 1935 was 61.7 years (according to Life Span Information). VERY FEW people even lived long enough to collect social security. It should also be noted that the current average life span is near 80.
Social Security received its first change in 1939 when it was altered to provide benefits to spouses, minor children and survivors of workers who die prematurely, regardless of whether these benficiaries had paid into the system themselves.
SSI was altered again in 1956. This change lowered the eligibility age for women workers to 62. This same year, SSI was amended to provide benefits to disabled workers 50-64 and disabled adult children, again regardless of whether or not these people had paid into the system. In 1961, the eligibilty age was lowered to 62 for men also.
One major blow, er change, was in 1965 with the addition of Medicare insurance to the Social Security Act. The irony that medical coverage was added for a program that was originally suppossed to cover elderly medical care is overwhelming, and so quintessenially "Washington".
According to The Business Owner's Toolkit, social security was only meant to cover 60% of the workforce, today it covers 95%. At this rate, there is no other alternative than bankruptcy. We will simply be unable to pay out on all the claims when baby boomers retire at the YOUNG age of 62.
It becomes very apparant that the original coverage of social security has been broadened to cover most Americans. Much of the New Deal legislation was panic politics, programs that seemed good in the short term, but were not thought through a hundred years in the future.
I do not propose we yank the rug out from people who have been paying into this system their whole lives, however. We need to implement a gradual phase out that is reasonably fair to the beneficiaries and those paying in. I very much resent paying into a system when I can better handle my own money. I can not tell my grandmother, however, she doesn't deserve her check, she paid in as well.
I would love to hear others' ideas on this system, both their interpretations of the history of the program and what we can expect in the future.
The Social Security Act of 1935 was originally intended to provide "old age" assistance to persons 65 or older that had worked in certain industries. The concept of social security being a "retirement" fund had not yet been born. I think it is critical to realize that the average life span in 1935 was 61.7 years (according to Life Span Information). VERY FEW people even lived long enough to collect social security. It should also be noted that the current average life span is near 80.
Social Security received its first change in 1939 when it was altered to provide benefits to spouses, minor children and survivors of workers who die prematurely, regardless of whether these benficiaries had paid into the system themselves.
SSI was altered again in 1956. This change lowered the eligibility age for women workers to 62. This same year, SSI was amended to provide benefits to disabled workers 50-64 and disabled adult children, again regardless of whether or not these people had paid into the system. In 1961, the eligibilty age was lowered to 62 for men also.
One major blow, er change, was in 1965 with the addition of Medicare insurance to the Social Security Act. The irony that medical coverage was added for a program that was originally suppossed to cover elderly medical care is overwhelming, and so quintessenially "Washington".
According to The Business Owner's Toolkit, social security was only meant to cover 60% of the workforce, today it covers 95%. At this rate, there is no other alternative than bankruptcy. We will simply be unable to pay out on all the claims when baby boomers retire at the YOUNG age of 62.
It becomes very apparant that the original coverage of social security has been broadened to cover most Americans. Much of the New Deal legislation was panic politics, programs that seemed good in the short term, but were not thought through a hundred years in the future.
I do not propose we yank the rug out from people who have been paying into this system their whole lives, however. We need to implement a gradual phase out that is reasonably fair to the beneficiaries and those paying in. I very much resent paying into a system when I can better handle my own money. I can not tell my grandmother, however, she doesn't deserve her check, she paid in as well.
I would love to hear others' ideas on this system, both their interpretations of the history of the program and what we can expect in the future.
One thing that gets me mad is the constant rhetoric of the SS Trust Fund. There ain't no such thing. There is not a stash of reserve funds for SS. The politicians take the American public as complete idiots, and just naively believing everything they say.
For me, I'm not counting on a single dime from SS when I retire. If it's still solvent when I retire, then it'll be gravy.
The whole SS system needs to be overhauled. But probably that ain't going to happen. Most likely the whole thing will collapse and we'll have mutiny on the streets.
For me, I'm not counting on a single dime from SS when I retire. If it's still solvent when I retire, then it'll be gravy.
The whole SS system needs to be overhauled. But probably that ain't going to happen. Most likely the whole thing will collapse and we'll have mutiny on the streets.
A monster huh? Well, a lot of people love that monster. I for one. I paid into SS from age 12
to age 68. (less 14 stay at home years) That's my money and nobody better mess with it!
However, like welfare, I think it needs to be fixed. Social Security should not be paying for college
educations for one thing. I recently became aware of the fact that if one reaches age 65 and still
has minor children, those children receive SS payments. If people want to have children in their
old age,it's their responsibility to support them.
The eligibility age could be raised...that would save a few bucks.
I'm not convinced that all widows and their dependants are in need of SS. Only the really
needy should receive it.
The disabled HAVE to be taken care of, if not by social security, then some other fund. We
can't just let people stave. Certainly a rich country like America can take care of it's
needy people.
to age 68. (less 14 stay at home years) That's my money and nobody better mess with it!
However, like welfare, I think it needs to be fixed. Social Security should not be paying for college
educations for one thing. I recently became aware of the fact that if one reaches age 65 and still
has minor children, those children receive SS payments. If people want to have children in their
old age,it's their responsibility to support them.
The eligibility age could be raised...that would save a few bucks.
I'm not convinced that all widows and their dependants are in need of SS. Only the really
needy should receive it.
The disabled HAVE to be taken care of, if not by social security, then some other fund. We
can't just let people stave. Certainly a rich country like America can take care of it's
needy people.
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 7 2002, 11:25 PM)
A monster huh? Well, a lot of people love that monster. I for one. I paid into SS from age 12
to age 68. (less 14 stay at home years) That's my money and nobody better mess with it!
to age 68. (less 14 stay at home years) That's my money and nobody better mess with it!
Hold on MT. No one wants to take away your checks. It is your money..you earned it.
My point is that SS has grown into a monster sized beaurocacy that I cannot believe was envisioned in 1935. Also I firmly believe that this was not the intention of the congress when it was voted into law. The research I have done does say that Kiplinger, along with a few other economists of the time, was suspect of its future.
Otseng is right in his posting. Jaimie I liked the part about panic politics. FDR had some pretty socialistic leanings that show up in hind sight.
It is a fairly simple actuarial issue but a very difficult political one. At the time the Wagner Act was passed, there were 16 payers for every recipient, today there are three and in 20 years, there will be fewer than two.
What we need to do is recognize that the retirement age must be increased, perhaps to 75 at some point in the future. However, the politics of such a move would be difficult.
Other options that should be considered are allowing people to invest everything above what is needed to fund minimum SS into an approved series of funds or stocks(Triple As, strong utilities, no derivatives) in order to increase the rate of return or perhaps eliminating the upper limit on FICA income while increasing benefits as well.
Under current policy, collapse is inevitable.
What we need to do is recognize that the retirement age must be increased, perhaps to 75 at some point in the future. However, the politics of such a move would be difficult.
Other options that should be considered are allowing people to invest everything above what is needed to fund minimum SS into an approved series of funds or stocks(Triple As, strong utilities, no derivatives) in order to increase the rate of return or perhaps eliminating the upper limit on FICA income while increasing benefits as well.
Under current policy, collapse is inevitable.
QUOTE(corgi @ Oct 17 2002, 07:30 AM)
It is a fairly simple actuarial issue but a very difficult political one. At the time the Wagner Act was passed, there were 16 payers for every recipient, today there are three and in 20 years, there will be fewer than two.
What we need to do is recognize that the retirement age must be increased, perhaps to 75 at some point in the future. However, the politics of such a move would be difficult.
Other options that should be considered are allowing people to invest everything above what is needed to fund minimum SS into an approved series of funds or stocks(Triple As, strong utilities, no derivatives) in order to increase the rate of return or perhaps eliminating the upper limit on FICA income while increasing benefits as well.
Under current policy, collapse is inevitable.
What we need to do is recognize that the retirement age must be increased, perhaps to 75 at some point in the future. However, the politics of such a move would be difficult.
Other options that should be considered are allowing people to invest everything above what is needed to fund minimum SS into an approved series of funds or stocks(Triple As, strong utilities, no derivatives) in order to increase the rate of return or perhaps eliminating the upper limit on FICA income while increasing benefits as well.
Under current policy, collapse is inevitable.
A voice of reason and simple math. Right now more than 50% of Americans and non-Americans are on the public dole. People have to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Darcaine
One immediate thing Congress can do is lower the SS tax. We currently have a surplus, and the surplus is NOT going to any trust fund, but rather other government programs. I'd certainly vote for any politician if he'd give me some of my money back.
I don't see why more Americans aren't demanding this... I guess cause the vast public think the trust fund exists.
I don't see why more Americans aren't demanding this... I guess cause the vast public think the trust fund exists.
[quote=MOUSE,Oct 17 2002, 02:37 AM]
[/QUOTE]
Hold on MT. No one wants to take away your checks. It is your money..you earned it.
My point is that SS has grown into a monster sized beaurocacy that I cannot believe was envisioned in 1935. Also I firmly believe that this was not the intention of the congress when it was voted into law. The research I have done does say that Kiplinger, along with a few other economists of the time, was suspect of its future.
Otseng is right in his posting. Jaimie I liked the part about panic politics. FDR had some pretty socialistic leanings that show up in hind sight.[/quote]
I have all ready agreed that SS needs to be overhauled. Panic politics, as you call it,
was what was needed in the 30's. It was a time of panic. Say what you want about Roosevelt.
He saved the day! He gave people hope. He created jobs. He created the middle class.
Republicans would put SS at risk in the private market leaving no safety net.
401k pension plans relied on the stock market and when it fell, they had much less to
retire on.
[/QUOTE]
Hold on MT. No one wants to take away your checks. It is your money..you earned it.
My point is that SS has grown into a monster sized beaurocacy that I cannot believe was envisioned in 1935. Also I firmly believe that this was not the intention of the congress when it was voted into law. The research I have done does say that Kiplinger, along with a few other economists of the time, was suspect of its future.
Otseng is right in his posting. Jaimie I liked the part about panic politics. FDR had some pretty socialistic leanings that show up in hind sight.[/quote]
I have all ready agreed that SS needs to be overhauled. Panic politics, as you call it,
was what was needed in the 30's. It was a time of panic. Say what you want about Roosevelt.
He saved the day! He gave people hope. He created jobs. He created the middle class.
Republicans would put SS at risk in the private market leaving no safety net.
401k pension plans relied on the stock market and when it fell, they had much less to
retire on.
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 18 2002, 05:08 AM)
I have all ready agreed that SS needs to be overhauled. Panic politics, as you call it,
was what was needed in the 30's. It was a time of panic. Say what you want about Roosevelt.
He saved the day! He gave people hope. He created jobs. He created the middle class.
Republicans would put SS at risk in the private market leaving no safety net.
401k pension plans relied on the stock market and when it fell, they had much less to
retire on.
was what was needed in the 30's. It was a time of panic. Say what you want about Roosevelt.
He saved the day! He gave people hope. He created jobs. He created the middle class.
Republicans would put SS at risk in the private market leaving no safety net.
401k pension plans relied on the stock market and when it fell, they had much less to
retire on.
Roosevelt saving the day with his economics is for another debate. Many historians and economists disagree concerning that. Actually, what he and his New Deal followers couldn’t accomplish was done by WWII. Much of what you say I consider Democrat’s rhetoric.
I believe it was Jaime who called it panic politics
Not everyone’s 401Ks were hurt that badly by the recent stock decline. History shows the economy will change. Indeed this week’s rally may well be the beginning. It couldn’t have possibly kept up at the pace it was going. A correction had to happen. Given time investing properly could earn a better return than the way it is now. It hasn’t been really looked at for one thing. It always said that restrictions and guidelines would be in place.
At the present rate it will be gone anyway by the time my grandchildren, in fact some of my children go to use it.
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 17 2002, 08:13 AM)
. Right now more than 50% of Americans and non-Americans are on the public dole. People have to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Darcaine
Darcaine
Darcaine. This thread is about Social Security which is not "the public dole."
QUOTE(MOUSE @ Oct 18 2002, 04:37 PM)
Roosevelt saving the day with his economics is for another debate. Many historians and economists disagree concerning that. Actually, what he and his New Deal followers couldn’t accomplish was done by WWII. Much of what you say I consider Democrat’s rhetoric.
I believe it was Jaime who called it panic politics
Not everyone’s 401Ks were hurt that badly by the recent stock decline. History shows the economy will change. Indeed this week’s rally may well be the beginning. It couldn’t have possibly kept up at the pace it was going. A correction had to happen. Given time investing properly could earn a better return than the way it is now. It hasn’t been really looked at for one thing. It always said that restrictions and guidelines would be in place.
At the present rate it will be gone anyway by the time my grandchildren, in fact some of my children go to use it.
I believe it was Jaime who called it panic politics
Not everyone’s 401Ks were hurt that badly by the recent stock decline. History shows the economy will change. Indeed this week’s rally may well be the beginning. It couldn’t have possibly kept up at the pace it was going. A correction had to happen. Given time investing properly could earn a better return than the way it is now. It hasn’t been really looked at for one thing. It always said that restrictions and guidelines would be in place.
At the present rate it will be gone anyway by the time my grandchildren, in fact some of my children go to use it.
Mouse. Since Jaime introduced Roosevelt's panic politics and you agreed with her,
I feel it is ok for me to defend him and his New Deal. I disagree that it is Democrat's
rhetoric. "Some historians believe that the New Deal saved the United States from a
violent change that might have resulted if the depression had lasted much longer."
WORLD BOOK ENCYCLOPEDIA I agree that some of his ND measures were socialistic.
Of course, not everyone's 401Ks were badly hurt, but many were. How would you like to be one
of those many? If it was so obvious that the stock market couldn't continue it's fast pace and
a correction had to happen, why wasn't this taken into concideration when 401k money was invested?
MT
Well, we will never agree on this. Strangely enough I was raised in a household where Roosevelt was absolutely adored. As I grew older and started to study, think for myself, ask questions and experience life I found that all was not as it seemed. The economists and the historians don’t agree that is obvious. In my opinion you are reading those with liberal leanings.
As for the 401Ks it was taken into consideration in many people’s 401ks. It certainly was in mine. My loss was very minimal, and has a good chance of being recovered before I need it all.
Though I won’t call SS a dole the program has grown into such a monster that it is almost the same thing.
As for the 401Ks it was taken into consideration in many people’s 401ks. It certainly was in mine. My loss was very minimal, and has a good chance of being recovered before I need it all.
Though I won’t call SS a dole the program has grown into such a monster that it is almost the same thing.
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 18 2002, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 17 2002, 08:13 AM)
. Right now more than 50% of Americans and non-Americans are on the public dole. People have to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Darcaine
Darcaine. This thread is about Social Security which is not "the public dole."
Actually being on SS you ARE on the public dole my friend. What you paid in doen't even begin to cover what you are getting out...especially if they add in medicare and free drugs. My generation is ###### from all the old farts out there that seen to think they don't have to pay for anything.
Darcaine
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 20 2002, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 18 2002, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 17 2002, 08:13 AM)
. Right now more than 50% of Americans and non-Americans are on the public dole. People have to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Darcaine
Darcaine. This thread is about Social Security which is not "the public dole."
Actually being on SS you ARE on the public dole my friend. What you paid in doen't even begin to cover what you are getting out...especially if they add in medicare and free drugs. My generation is ###### from all the old farts out there that seen to think they don't have to pay for anything.
Darcaine
Social Security is somewhat like insurance. I may not have paid in more than I will take out, but both of my parents paid in and one didn't live to reach retirement age and the other one only lived a few years beyond retirement age. It's just the breaks.
I do agree however, that the program is paying out much more than was ever intended and needs an overhaul.
I would ask you Darcaine, to use better language on the board. Not that I expect you to listen.
Madtown
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 20 2002, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 20 2002, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 18 2002, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 17 2002, 08:13 AM)
. Right now more than 50% of Americans and non-Americans are on the public dole. People have to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Darcaine
Darcaine. This thread is about Social Security which is not "the public dole."
Actually being on SS you ARE on the public dole my friend. What you paid in doen't even begin to cover what you are getting out...especially if they add in medicare and free drugs. My generation is ###### from all the old farts out there that seen to think they don't have to pay for anything.
Darcaine
Social Security is somewhat like insurance. I may not have paid in more than I will take out, but both of my parents paid in and one didn't live to reach retirement age and the other one only lived a few years beyond retirement age. It's just the breaks.
I do agree however, that the program is paying out much more than was ever intended and needs an overhaul.
I would ask you Darcaine, to use better language on the board. Not that I expect you to listen.
Madtown
The problem is that it is doomed to fail as it is now. People are living MUCH longer now and elected officials keep promising more and more and more...it's a MONSTER. I fully expect all this money I am paying in I will never see again. The numbers just don't add up. So, to use better language, my generation is basically screwed supporting everyone else. Hope alot of the older generation can live with themselves knowing they are screwing the next generation.
Darcaine
"There is no such thing as a free lunch."
I do agree however, that the program is paying out much more than was ever intended and needs an overhaul.
I repeat: THE SOCIAL SECURITY PROGRAM NEEDS AN OVERHAUL.
MT
I repeat: THE SOCIAL SECURITY PROGRAM NEEDS AN OVERHAUL.
MT
I agree social security needs an over haul. But I don't know if I am paying in less for what I am going to get when I retire. I am and so is everyone working paying social security, federal income tax, state tax and some county tax. Then there is sales taxes sin taxes etc. If you start working at say 16 you retire at 60 you have paid 44 yrs of taxes. I think yeah I am entitled to stop working and get paid something for all the money I have paid over the years in taxes. 
QUOTE(Momof3 @ Oct 20 2002, 11:41 PM)
I agree social security needs an over haul. But I don't know if I am paying in less for what I am going to get when I retire. I am and so is everyone working paying social security, federal income tax, state tax and some county tax. Then there is sales taxes sin taxes etc. If you start working at say 16 you retire at 60 you have paid 44 yrs of taxes. I think yeah I am entitled to stop working and get paid something for all the money I have paid over the years in taxes.
I wouldn't count on getting anything if I were you at the rate they are promising things to everybody. I totally am not counting on SS when I retire.
Darcaine
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 20 2002, 09:48 PM)
My generation is ###### from all the old farts out there that seen to think they don't have to pay for anything.
. I fully expect all this money I am paying in I will never see again. The numbers just don't add up. So, to use better language, my generation is basically screwed supporting everyone else. Hope alot of the older generation can live with themselves knowing they are screwing the next generation.
Darcaine
"There is no such thing as a free lunch."
. I fully expect all this money I am paying in I will never see again. The numbers just don't add up. So, to use better language, my generation is basically screwed supporting everyone else. Hope alot of the older generation can live with themselves knowing they are screwing the next generation.
Darcaine
"There is no such thing as a free lunch."
The old fa-ts now collecting SS lived through a depression.
Many fought for their country during WW2.
They have raised families and educated their children.
Paid taxes without complaining, including SS tax.
I don't mind your disenchantment with the SS program, but I do mind the way you present it. I'm sure I would be as concerned as you are, if I were young and paying into a failing system.
Madtown
This came to me via the e-mail. Is this the truth? Please tell me it is not.
SOCIAL SECURITY: Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years. Our Senators and Congressmen do not pay into Scoial Security and of course, they do not collect from it. Many years ago they voted in their own benefit plan. In more recent years, no congress person has felt the need to change it. For all practical purposes their plan works like this: When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die, except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments.
For example, Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight Hundred Thousand), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last years of their lives. This is calculated on an average life span for each. Their cost for this excellent plan is $0.00. Nada. Zilch. This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds- our tax dollars at work!
From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I and our employer pay into every payday util we retire, we can expect to get an average $1000.00 per month after retirement. Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1000.00 monthly benefits for 68 years and one month to equal their benefits.
Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made. And that change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us and then watch how fast they would fix it.
SOCIAL SECURITY: Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years. Our Senators and Congressmen do not pay into Scoial Security and of course, they do not collect from it. Many years ago they voted in their own benefit plan. In more recent years, no congress person has felt the need to change it. For all practical purposes their plan works like this: When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die, except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments.
For example, Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight Hundred Thousand), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last years of their lives. This is calculated on an average life span for each. Their cost for this excellent plan is $0.00. Nada. Zilch. This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds- our tax dollars at work!
From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I and our employer pay into every payday util we retire, we can expect to get an average $1000.00 per month after retirement. Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1000.00 monthly benefits for 68 years and one month to equal their benefits.
Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made. And that change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us and then watch how fast they would fix it.
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 21 2002, 08:48 AM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 20 2002, 09:48 PM)
My generation is ###### from all the old farts out there that seen to think they don't have to pay for anything.
. I fully expect all this money I am paying in I will never see again. The numbers just don't add up. So, to use better language, my generation is basically screwed supporting everyone else. Hope alot of the older generation can live with themselves knowing they are screwing the next generation.
Darcaine
"There is no such thing as a free lunch."
The old fa-ts now collecting SS lived through a depression.
Many fought for their country during WW2.
They have raised families and educated their children.
Paid taxes without complaining, including SS tax.
I don't mind your disenchantment with the SS program, but I do mind the way you present it. I'm sure I would be as concerned as you are, if I were young and paying into a failing system.
Madtown
So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride. Never complained about paying taxes...who are you kidding. It's really simple math. Until my generation wakes up and starts voting we are screwing ourselves out of money we could be investing in our future.
Darcaine
[QUOTE=Darcaine,Oct 21 2002, 07:11 PM]
Madtown[/QUOTE]
So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride. Never complained about paying taxes...who are you kidding. It's really simple math. Until my generation wakes up and starts voting we are screwing ourselves out of money we could be investing in our future.
Darcaine[/QUOTE]
That's right Darcaine, Our generation considered it a privilege to live in this country and pay taxes. It's worth it! I'm speaking about the ordinary people here, not corporations and businesses.
It is not a free ride. We did pay in...plenty.
We really can't help it if your generation doesn't vote.
Madtown
Madtown[/QUOTE]
So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride. Never complained about paying taxes...who are you kidding. It's really simple math. Until my generation wakes up and starts voting we are screwing ourselves out of money we could be investing in our future.
Darcaine[/QUOTE]
That's right Darcaine, Our generation considered it a privilege to live in this country and pay taxes. It's worth it! I'm speaking about the ordinary people here, not corporations and businesses.
It is not a free ride. We did pay in...plenty.
We really can't help it if your generation doesn't vote.
Madtown
I hope you will read my earlier post about the retirement plan for senators and congressmen and tell me if you think it's on the level. Thanks
Madtown
Madtown
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 21 2002, 07:46 PM)
I hope you will read my earlier post about the retirement plan for senators and congressmen and tell me if you think it's on the level. Thanks
Madtown
Madtown
Yep MT why do you think Torrecelli isn't stepping down right now? He has a few more days for his big retirement payoff. It's sick.
Darcaine
At last I can agree with you Dacaine. Don't you think that we should all be more concerned about our pockets being picked to support retirement plans for senators & congressmen, rather than begrudge a senior citizen SS payments from a fund that he has paid into all his working years?
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Please explain. MT
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Please explain. MT
Social Security needs to be abolished completely, and the money should stay in the pockets (or banks) of the people who earned it. It's just another worthless, inneficient government program that politicians use to stay in power. I don't know of a single person who DEPENDS on social security protecting their future.
QUOTE(Neil @ Oct 22 2002, 11:29 AM)
Social Security needs to be abolished completely, and the money should stay in the pockets (or banks) of the people who earned it. It's just another worthless, inneficient government program that politicians use to stay in power. I don't know of a single person who DEPENDS on social security protecting their future.
How would this be accomplished? Everybody who paid in would be screeming bloody murder. I think you are right about younger people not depending on SS for their future, but many older people have no other means of income. Whether this is their fault or not, it's still a fact.
The government did mismanage SS, gave away money like there was no tomorrow. As I understand it, instead of investing the fund so it would increase, they put it in the general account (or whatever it's called) and it is no more.
But retired people who paid in want their checks and they deserve them.
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 22 2002, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE(Neil @ Oct 22 2002, 11:29 AM)
Social Security needs to be abolished completely, and the money should stay in the pockets (or banks) of the people who earned it. It's just another worthless, inneficient government program that politicians use to stay in power. I don't know of a single person who DEPENDS on social security protecting their future.
How would this be accomplished? Everybody who paid in would be screeming bloody murder. I think you are right about younger people not depending on SS for their future, but many older people have no other means of income. Whether this is their fault or not, it's still a fact.
The government did mismanage SS, gave away money like there was no tomorrow. As I understand it, instead of investing the fund so it would increase, they put it in the general account (or whatever it's called) and it is no more.
But retired people who paid in want their checks and they deserve them.
The problem MT is simple numbers. The original people that got SS never paid a cent into it. It has ALWAYS been a rotating account. This so called "lock box" is a sick joke. So the young are supporting the old. The problem is people are living longer and there are we are beginning to see the population in the US begin to cap off. In the very near future 2 workers will be suporting 1 person on SS. Simple math..it can't continue to function. Not only that but adding everything else to it is only making matters worse.
Darcaine
Darcaine.
Right, the first group of people to recieve SS check did not pay in. They got a few
bucks a month back in the 30's.
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT
Right, the first group of people to recieve SS check did not pay in. They got a few
bucks a month back in the 30's.
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 22 2002, 10:31 PM)
Darcaine.
Right, the first group of people to recieve SS check did not pay in. They got a few
bucks a month back in the 30's.
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT
Right, the first group of people to recieve SS check did not pay in. They got a few
bucks a month back in the 30's.
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT
MT...what you have paid into SS doens't EVEN begin to cover what you will take out. How many times can I say that? SS is supposed to be a safety net...not an entire retirement package! It's basically stealing..that money if it were put into savings or some sort of CD would make most of us millionairs when we retire.
Darcaine
I can't call it stealing. It's irresponsible spending and accounting, no doubt. But we have allowed our representatives to use this program as a reelection tool. We need to demand more from them (or less, I suppose, in this case).
MT, I don't know anything about the pension program for Congress, but it wouldn't suprise me if they set themselves up with *sweet* packages. I've always said I'd love to see some of our Senators & Reps try and do a real job for a few years and see how well they handle their finances.
MT, I don't know anything about the pension program for Congress, but it wouldn't suprise me if they set themselves up with *sweet* packages. I've always said I'd love to see some of our Senators & Reps try and do a real job for a few years and see how well they handle their finances.
[quote=Darcaine,Oct 23 2002, 11:07 PM]
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT[/QUOTE]
MT...what you have paid into SS doens't EVEN begin to cover what you will take out. How many times can I say that? SS is supposed to be a safety net...not an entire retirement package! It's basically stealing..that money if it were put into savings or some sort of CD would make most of us millionairs when we retire.
Darcaine[/quote]
Darcaine, you said we are giving those who NEVER PAID IN a free ride. How many times do I have to tell you that we paid in. I can't help it if the program was mismanaged. I can't help it if I may draw out more than I paid in. Do you expect me to just say ok I don't want my money? And for your information SS is not my entire retirement package. I'd like to see anybody live on SS alone. I'm afraid they wouldn't live very well.
Also, I am forced to pay for Medicare, which I don't even want.
How come your aren't hollering about the big bucks the Congress makes off with? They are the ones who actually are stealing.
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT[/QUOTE]
MT...what you have paid into SS doens't EVEN begin to cover what you will take out. How many times can I say that? SS is supposed to be a safety net...not an entire retirement package! It's basically stealing..that money if it were put into savings or some sort of CD would make most of us millionairs when we retire.
Darcaine[/quote]
Darcaine, you said we are giving those who NEVER PAID IN a free ride. How many times do I have to tell you that we paid in. I can't help it if the program was mismanaged. I can't help it if I may draw out more than I paid in. Do you expect me to just say ok I don't want my money? And for your information SS is not my entire retirement package. I'd like to see anybody live on SS alone. I'm afraid they wouldn't live very well.
Also, I am forced to pay for Medicare, which I don't even want.
How come your aren't hollering about the big bucks the Congress makes off with? They are the ones who actually are stealing.
[quote=Madtown,Oct 24 2002, 12:35 AM][QUOTE=Darcaine,Oct 23 2002, 11:07 PM]
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT[/QUOTE]
MT...what you have paid into SS doens't EVEN begin to cover what you will take out. How many times can I say that? SS is supposed to be a safety net...not an entire retirement package! It's basically stealing..that money if it were put into savings or some sort of CD would make most of us millionairs when we retire.
Darcaine[/QUOTE]
Darcaine, you said we are giving those who NEVER PAID IN a free ride. How many times do I have to tell you that we paid in. I can't help it if the program was mismanaged. I can't help it if I may draw out more than I paid in. Do you expect me to just say ok I don't want my money? And for your information SS is not my entire retirement package. I'd like to see anybody live on SS alone. I'm afraid they wouldn't live very well.
Also, I am forced to pay for Medicare, which I don't even want.
How come your aren't hollering about the big bucks the Congress makes off with? They are the ones who actually are stealing.[/quote]
Oh, believe me I am NOT happy about that MT. I really didn't know about that until someone investigated Torrecelli and found that out. Yes the program is mis managed but MT, simple math and you will see the light. If and when you paid in, did SS offer free drug benefits? Where do you think this money will come from..AND you should be thanking Clinton and Associates for TAXING you SS check.
Darcaine
(So, you basically are giving everyone who never paid in a free ride)
Who are the people today, who never paid in and are getting a free ride?
MT[/QUOTE]
MT...what you have paid into SS doens't EVEN begin to cover what you will take out. How many times can I say that? SS is supposed to be a safety net...not an entire retirement package! It's basically stealing..that money if it were put into savings or some sort of CD would make most of us millionairs when we retire.
Darcaine[/QUOTE]
Darcaine, you said we are giving those who NEVER PAID IN a free ride. How many times do I have to tell you that we paid in. I can't help it if the program was mismanaged. I can't help it if I may draw out more than I paid in. Do you expect me to just say ok I don't want my money? And for your information SS is not my entire retirement package. I'd like to see anybody live on SS alone. I'm afraid they wouldn't live very well.
Also, I am forced to pay for Medicare, which I don't even want.
How come your aren't hollering about the big bucks the Congress makes off with? They are the ones who actually are stealing.[/quote]
Oh, believe me I am NOT happy about that MT. I really didn't know about that until someone investigated Torrecelli and found that out. Yes the program is mis managed but MT, simple math and you will see the light. If and when you paid in, did SS offer free drug benefits? Where do you think this money will come from..AND you should be thanking Clinton and Associates for TAXING you SS check.
Darcaine
I knew some about the retirement pkg. for congress. Let's be fair here though...what benefit pkg DO they have? Also, I really don't think they are paid enough to keep 2 residences in a very high rent place as they are required to do. Most of the more influential ones make money on speeches and other appearances. I would love to see this stop and their pay increased. There would be far less special interests influence that way. Also, many talented people who just cannot afford to give up their jobs for the insecurity of an elected job with high expenses could be induced to run for public office.
I hope to reaearch the retirement further. I know a lot of government employees get a sweet deal. Not all, but some do not have to pay SS..they have a different retirement. I will not expand until I do more research.
Is it postal workers also???
I hope to reaearch the retirement further. I know a lot of government employees get a sweet deal. Not all, but some do not have to pay SS..they have a different retirement. I will not expand until I do more research.
Is it postal workers also???
I haven't gotten into this very deeply, but here is one reference to employees who do not pay SS. Think it surprises a lot of people. ??
http://207.27.3.29/dailyfed/0499/042799t3.htm
Anyone else know a lot about this?
http://207.27.3.29/dailyfed/0499/042799t3.htm
Anyone else know a lot about this?
Thanks for such a frustrating article, MOUSE 
It was dated April 27, 1999. I'm curious as to what ever happened to the legislation.
I think this article serves to enforce the idea that Social Security is a monster. What a mess this all is because of such exemptions. Throw that in with the growing list of beneficiaries and greater life expectancies and we have a real problem on our hands.
I sometimes dream of telling the payroll administrator at my office to just stop sending a portion of my paycheck into social security. I dream...
I'm curious if anyone knows anything about the history of retirement in America. It seems to me the number of young retirees grows larger every year (or maybe my concept of young is changing
). Has it always been this way?
It was dated April 27, 1999. I'm curious as to what ever happened to the legislation.
I think this article serves to enforce the idea that Social Security is a monster. What a mess this all is because of such exemptions. Throw that in with the growing list of beneficiaries and greater life expectancies and we have a real problem on our hands.
I sometimes dream of telling the payroll administrator at my office to just stop sending a portion of my paycheck into social security. I dream...
I'm curious if anyone knows anything about the history of retirement in America. It seems to me the number of young retirees grows larger every year (or maybe my concept of young is changing
). Has it always been this way?
[quote=Darcaine,Oct 24 2002, 06:44 AM].[/QUOTE]
Oh, believe me I am NOT happy about that MT. I really didn't know about that until someone investigated Torrecelli and found that out. Yes the program is mis managed but MT, simple math and you will see the light. If and when you paid in, did SS offer free drug benefits? Where do you think this money will come from..AND you should be thanking Clinton and Associates for TAXING you SS check.
Darcaine[/quote]
Darcaine, You still have not answered my question. WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER PAID INTO SS AND ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE?
No, I was never offered free prescription drugs. I have an HMO for that which has nothing to do with SS.
I understand all about your "simple math. " How often do I need to agree with you that the program is in trouble?
MT
Oh, believe me I am NOT happy about that MT. I really didn't know about that until someone investigated Torrecelli and found that out. Yes the program is mis managed but MT, simple math and you will see the light. If and when you paid in, did SS offer free drug benefits? Where do you think this money will come from..AND you should be thanking Clinton and Associates for TAXING you SS check.
Darcaine[/quote]
Darcaine, You still have not answered my question. WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER PAID INTO SS AND ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE?
No, I was never offered free prescription drugs. I have an HMO for that which has nothing to do with SS.
I understand all about your "simple math. " How often do I need to agree with you that the program is in trouble?
MT
Jaime, I think Railroad employees have their own retirement program and don't pay into Social Security. This may have changed in recent years. I'm not sure. 
MT
MT
MT- You are absolutely correct on the railroad retirement program. It's completely different and they do not pay into social security...At least according to Mike's dad. He'll be retiring in a few years years at the young age of 62
No Kidding? My dad worked for over fifty years for the Chicago North Western RR. Only jobe he ever had except for moonlighting . During the depression, we kids would accompany him when he went to the depot to "red cap" the trains. We didn't know he was working extra to put bread on the table, we thought he was so important,the trains couldn't come and go unless he was there.
Madtown
Madtown
[quote=Madtown,Oct 24 2002, 08:55 PM][QUOTE=Darcaine,Oct 24 2002, 06:44 AM].[/QUOTE]
Oh, believe me I am NOT happy about that MT. I really didn't know about that until someone investigated Torrecelli and found that out. Yes the program is mis managed but MT, simple math and you will see the light. If and when you paid in, did SS offer free drug benefits? Where do you think this money will come from..AND you should be thanking Clinton and Associates for TAXING you SS check.
Darcaine[/QUOTE]
Darcaine, You still have not answered my question. WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER PAID INTO SS AND ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE?
No, I was never offered free prescription drugs. I have an HMO for that which has nothing to do with SS.
I understand all about your "simple math. " How often do I need to agree with you that the program is in trouble?
MT[/quote]
MT..dude...I am paying taxes for SS RIGHT NOW. All my money is going towards those collecting it RIGHT NOW. So, when I collect it will not be for money I have in SS.
Darcaine
Oh, believe me I am NOT happy about that MT. I really didn't know about that until someone investigated Torrecelli and found that out. Yes the program is mis managed but MT, simple math and you will see the light. If and when you paid in, did SS offer free drug benefits? Where do you think this money will come from..AND you should be thanking Clinton and Associates for TAXING you SS check.
Darcaine[/QUOTE]
Darcaine, You still have not answered my question. WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER PAID INTO SS AND ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE?
No, I was never offered free prescription drugs. I have an HMO for that which has nothing to do with SS.
I understand all about your "simple math. " How often do I need to agree with you that the program is in trouble?
MT[/quote]
MT..dude...I am paying taxes for SS RIGHT NOW. All my money is going towards those collecting it RIGHT NOW. So, when I collect it will not be for money I have in SS.
Darcaine
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 26 2002, 01:45 AM)
MT..dude...I am paying taxes for SS RIGHT NOW. All my money is going towards those collecting it RIGHT NOW. So, when I collect it will not be for money I have in SS.
Darcaine
Darcaine
Darcaine.
That is the way the program works! Duh!
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER PAID IN AND ARE NOW GETTING A FREE RIDE??
You made that statement, but you can't explain it.
Please don't call me dude. Thank You
In reference to MT's complaint about the senate/house and their pensions:
At least one of the senators, and congressmen in my state have refused to take this package. One referred to it as a most generous package or something close to that. Since both Democrats and Republicans are eligible perhaps we should be asking the ones from our states what they have elected to do. As I said in a previous post their expenses are high etc. Since then I've done more digging.
The SS raise this year was almost an insult. By the time the raise in medicare premiums is deducted it amounts to almost nothing.
The more I ask around the more I find that federal employees do not pay SS, and their deals are pretty darned good by comparison. Think I am calling foul here.
Live and learn.
I still say it is a monster. Also, I still say The New Deal did not work. It was the war that brought us out of this. Also history bears out that countries since ancient times that went socialistic wound up decaying. Redistributing the wealth is something that simply does not work.
Why are some people so anti-business? Who is industry? What employs people? If there are businesses where do people work. What makes the stock market? I do not understand where some people are coming from. Sen. Leiberman understands that business is necessary.
Most of the states that have high unemployment and recent lay-offs have laws and taxes unfavorable to business. They move out or don't come there as the case may be to save themselves. Rayovac battery Co is one in point. Car assembly plants are in the South now. One has to ask why?
In some post, I'm not sure in what forum, MT said something about the rich paying their fair share of taxes. My question to her is what she considers rich? I am curious.
At least one of the senators, and congressmen in my state have refused to take this package. One referred to it as a most generous package or something close to that. Since both Democrats and Republicans are eligible perhaps we should be asking the ones from our states what they have elected to do. As I said in a previous post their expenses are high etc. Since then I've done more digging.
The SS raise this year was almost an insult. By the time the raise in medicare premiums is deducted it amounts to almost nothing.
The more I ask around the more I find that federal employees do not pay SS, and their deals are pretty darned good by comparison. Think I am calling foul here.
Live and learn.
I still say it is a monster. Also, I still say The New Deal did not work. It was the war that brought us out of this. Also history bears out that countries since ancient times that went socialistic wound up decaying. Redistributing the wealth is something that simply does not work.
Why are some people so anti-business? Who is industry? What employs people? If there are businesses where do people work. What makes the stock market? I do not understand where some people are coming from. Sen. Leiberman understands that business is necessary.
Most of the states that have high unemployment and recent lay-offs have laws and taxes unfavorable to business. They move out or don't come there as the case may be to save themselves. Rayovac battery Co is one in point. Car assembly plants are in the South now. One has to ask why?
In some post, I'm not sure in what forum, MT said something about the rich paying their fair share of taxes. My question to her is what she considers rich? I am curious.
QUOTE(MOUSE @ Oct 26 2002, 07:21 AM)
In reference to MT's complaint about the senate/house and their pensions:
At least one of the senators, and congressmen in my state have refused to take this package. One referred to it as a most generous package or something close to that. Since both Democrats and Republicans are eligible perhaps we should be asking the ones from our states what they have elected to do. As I said in a previous post their expenses are high etc. Since then I've done more digging.
The SS raise this year was almost an insult. By the time the raise in medicare premiums is deducted it amounts to almost nothing.
The more I ask around the more I find that federal employees do not pay SS, and their deals are pretty darned good by comparison. Think I am calling foul here.
Live and learn.
I still say it is a monster. Also, I still say The New Deal did not work. It was the war that brought us out of this. Also history bears out that countries since ancient times that went socialistic wound up decaying. Redistributing the wealth is something that simply does not work.
Why are some people so anti-business? Who is industry? What employs people? If there are businesses where do people work. What makes the stock market? I do not understand where some people are coming from. Sen. Leiberman understands that business is necessary.
Most of the states that have high unemployment and recent lay-offs have laws and taxes unfavorable to business. They move out or don't come there as the case may be to save themselves. Rayovac battery Co is one in point. Car assembly plants are in the South now. One has to ask why?
In some post, I'm not sure in what forum, MT said something about the rich paying their fair share of taxes. My question to her is what she considers rich? I am curious.
;)
At least one of the senators, and congressmen in my state have refused to take this package. One referred to it as a most generous package or something close to that. Since both Democrats and Republicans are eligible perhaps we should be asking the ones from our states what they have elected to do. As I said in a previous post their expenses are high etc. Since then I've done more digging.
The SS raise this year was almost an insult. By the time the raise in medicare premiums is deducted it amounts to almost nothing.
The more I ask around the more I find that federal employees do not pay SS, and their deals are pretty darned good by comparison. Think I am calling foul here.
Live and learn.
I still say it is a monster. Also, I still say The New Deal did not work. It was the war that brought us out of this. Also history bears out that countries since ancient times that went socialistic wound up decaying. Redistributing the wealth is something that simply does not work.
Why are some people so anti-business? Who is industry? What employs people? If there are businesses where do people work. What makes the stock market? I do not understand where some people are coming from. Sen. Leiberman understands that business is necessary.
Most of the states that have high unemployment and recent lay-offs have laws and taxes unfavorable to business. They move out or don't come there as the case may be to save themselves. Rayovac battery Co is one in point. Car assembly plants are in the South now. One has to ask why?
In some post, I'm not sure in what forum, MT said something about the rich paying their fair share of taxes. My question to her is what she considers rich? I am curious.
;)
Actually the Great Society DID work. It ensured the Democratic party 40 years of uncontested Congressional seating. It's what the dems always do..buy their way into office with everyone elses $$$.
Darcaine
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 26 2002, 02:18 AM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Oct 26 2002, 01:45 AM)
MT..dude...I am paying taxes for SS RIGHT NOW. All my money is going towards those collecting it RIGHT NOW. So, when I collect it will not be for money I have in SS.
Darcaine
Darcaine
Darcaine.
That is the way the program works! Duh!
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER PAID IN AND ARE NOW GETTING A FREE RIDE??
You made that statement, but you can't explain it.
Please don't call me dude. Thank You
MT..how can you pay INTO something that isn't there? If I PAY into my savings..it's there..tangible. SS I am paying to support someone else..I am NOT paying to support ME! Do YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS TYPED ON THE COMPUTER!
Darcaine
Darcaine
We ALL, in our turn, paid to support someone else. Every generation has done this since the program began.
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER PAID IN AND ARE NOW GETTING A FREE RIDE??
MT
We ALL, in our turn, paid to support someone else. Every generation has done this since the program began.
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER PAID IN AND ARE NOW GETTING A FREE RIDE??
MT
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 26 2002, 09:15 PM)
Darcaine
We ALL, in our turn, paid to support someone else. Every generation has done this since the program began.
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER PAID IN AND ARE NOW GETTING A FREE RIDE??
MT
We ALL, in our turn, paid to support someone else. Every generation has done this since the program began.
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER PAID IN AND ARE NOW GETTING A FREE RIDE??
MT
MT are you daft? If you are on SS right now someone is PAYING to support you. This isn't your money! They have passed the buck all the way down the line.
Darcaine
Darcaine
Please don't call me daft. Thank You
No, the money I receive is not my money because my money was used to support the generation before me as your money is being used to support my generation.
That is how the program was set up to work.
Amen, This is all I will say to you about SS. You may have the last word.
Please don't call me daft. Thank You
No, the money I receive is not my money because my money was used to support the generation before me as your money is being used to support my generation.
That is how the program was set up to work.
Amen, This is all I will say to you about SS. You may have the last word.
QUOTE(Madtown @ Oct 27 2002, 05:46 AM)
Darcaine
Please don't call me daft. Thank You
No, the money I receive is not my money because my money was used to support the generation before me as your money is being used to support my generation.
That is how the program was set up to work.
Amen, This is all I will say to you about SS. You may have the last word.
Please don't call me daft. Thank You
No, the money I receive is not my money because my money was used to support the generation before me as your money is being used to support my generation.
That is how the program was set up to work.
Amen, This is all I will say to you about SS. You may have the last word.
NOW, thank you! Now, this is what the problem is! Congresspeople trying to get your vote start adding a TON of new spending into SS to get votes. This is requiring more and more people to support people on SS now. i.e. you paid into SS for certain services...not the other crap they are loading on the system making the next generation pay for. It is a snowball that can only lead to SS being defunct by time it's my turn to "freeload" off the young.
Darcaine
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