Is it me, or is the irony just dripping here? Eeyore offers the following as proof of Bush's dumbness....



There's only one problem with his quote from "Bush Watch". Texas governors were elected to 2 YEAR TERMS until 1979.

For some twisted reason, I can't understand how a case that somebody is "dumb" because they don't have a mastery of the facts can be supported with such startling (and easily discovered) ignorance. If Bush Watch is keeping an eye out for dumbness emanating from Bush...


Who's watching the watchers?

At the very least it reduces the magnificence of the accomplishment that it posted like a press release in almost any discussion of his political biography.

Bushisms abound throughout the net. How long would it take for Bush to insult a foreign power with the level of knowledge he had about foreign policy upon entering office.

I take it since you only showered scorn on one of the six quotes I put up their that you agree that the other quotes reflect subpar comments from a president or a candidate for that office.

Eeyore, some of the others could merely be slips of the tongue.

Japan== half a century instead of "a century and a half" . Slip of the tongue.

The US military is spread about the globe. Perhaps Haiti was a bad example, but the point remains.

The others may be a matter of context.

Remember Wolfowitz declaring that the War in Iraq was about Oil? Except he never said that (in context).

I find some of Bush's isms charming. His mispronunciation of nuclear doesn't bother me in the least. I too am from the south and nuclear is regularly pronounced nu cu lar.

I'd rather be around a person who is down to earth and has a few flaws than a person who practices elitism.

I had this BIG long post I was going to make... and it was sooo good! But ya know... the best two things I can say are:

#1.) Opportunity always looks 10 times better going than coming.
#2.) People will frequently attack those that are in a seemingly "better" position.

The second one can be difficult to stop doing... but not impossible. Instead of attacking him all you have to do is wait till the end of his term. Vote for someone you think can do better. The position of President does not require super human powers... but it does require a man with drive and knowledge of how to make the system work for him.

Directly related to the topic: Bush isn't dumb or unintelligent... or as someone called me... a "pseudo-intellectual." (GRR!) He has a brain and he uses it. He doesn't come to the same conclusions that "you" do. "You" also do not have the same information and constraints he does. Bush is not the only man in Washington... there are 3 branches! Bush is just the easiest man to pick-on.

Anyways... go get some bush!

O.

Okay, Eeyore, I'll answer the remaining five, briefly, since I've already done this once and my computer (Win98, blech!!) froze before committing the post.

Read the full context of the debate. Also note that during the same debate Gore made some flubs of his own, for which he's been given a free pass.

From the same debate. Given that Bush was factually correct, i.e. there were US troops in Haiti at the time, what's the problem? It seems as though "if he's wrong about the facts, he's dumb. if he's right about the facts, he's wrong, ergo, he's dumb."

You can go to the White House's website and read the full speech. You'll see that Bush used both the terms century and 'half century' multiple times. He flubbed. Nobody is claiming that he's the most articulate speaker in the world. Are you claiming that articulate speech is a prerequisite for intelligence? If not, then why persist in this line of argument?

Snopes does this one better than I... Urban Legends - Bush's Brazil

Another flub. There's legions of them out there, including some by those "highly intelligent" Democrats, and we won't even begin to get into the flubs that make up some of the most entertaining bits of television and movies, you know, the outtakes. Flubs by professional actors.

Still no facts. But I hope that's enough scorn for you.... Frankly, after gutting and cleaning Bush Watch in my prior post, I can't imagine any rational basis for you coming back for more. Which leaves us with naught but the irrational.

You want to denigrate his policies on their merits. Go ahead. You want to make the claim that Bush isn't the most articulate President we've ever had, go ahead, few will argue with you, because you'll have facts on your side. Of course, it seems as though Reagan, who was one of the most articulate, was also supposed to be "dumb". Moving target, anyone?

The point is, you want to make a claim that he's dumb, try using relevant facts to support your argument. That's all I ask. Not hearsay/urban legends, counterfactual misrepresentations, facts that undermine your argument, and human flubs.

Alcoholism is no measure of intelligence, nor is how you handle it. I'd think someone as astute as yourself would know that.

Someone as astute as me did realize that, but you might want to share the clue with Bikerdad.

Keep in mind this thread was started by his supporters (you) and not his critics (like me). As I pointed out...I don't think he's dumb...I think he's of average intelligence.

If you're asking why he has that reputation I will admit when he first took office I knew very little about him...but his slips of the tongue were constantly being reported and discussed in the media. This was the first impression he made thanks to pundit's and journalists.

But that was a lifetime ago...before we had such important issues to deal with regarding this war or that, threat levels, job losses, how to punish our allies, or if it's acceptable to torture prisoners.

I liked him better when he seemed to be somewhat simpleminded...now I realize there are worse things for a President to be.

And the beat goes on. Another Bush-bashing post.

There are plenty of other threads where you can spout your criticisms of Bush as a person and/or of his policies. This one is supposed to be dedicated to a discussion of his intelligence, which I believe you have stated is 'average'. Do you have anything at all to offer on the subject of his intelligence?

Platypus


You may not have originated the equating of alcoholism and intelligence, but you have agreed with that premise in your own words. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not the one who's trying to. I apologize if the tactic of adopting an opponent's premise "for the sake of argument" to show how the argument collapses of its own weight was too subtle for you.

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but I believe it its relevant to the conversation:



George W. Bush Resume


Past work experience:

Ran for congress and lost.

Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.

Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.


Accomplishments as president:


Attacked and took over two countries.

Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.

Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.

Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

Signed more laws and executive orders circumventing the Constitution than any president in US history.

Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. (http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/)

Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).

Had more states to simultaneously go bankrupt than any president in the history of the United States.

Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.

First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.

Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.

Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.


Records and References:

At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.

Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.

For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)

Welcome to the forum, Andy Mosity. We ask that members use examples (ie references from articles, links, etc) and not just make unfounded, possibly inflammatory, responses.

And could you please tie in your post with the actual topic we are to debate here - which is:

Nothing from the above resume is unfounded or disputed. If anyone is curious about a specific part of the resume, I would be happy to lead them to the appropriate link. As far as his intelligence in concerned, I think the resume itself stands as proof, i.e. ran an oil company in Texas and couldn't find oil, spent the nations surplus and bankrupted the treasury, etc. Eventually the American people will catch on, but it may not be until after he's long gone from office.

Now, the people he has working for him, Mr. Cheney, Ashcroft, Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz (sic), are really running the show, they have their own agenda, as demonstrated in the PNAC website (with other noteables like Daniel Pearle). pResident Bush is simply a tool, being used to forward this agenda of right wing fundamentalism.

The PNAC Website: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Andy Mosity,

That's a long list. Unfortunately I didn't see a single thing that is indicative of stupidity. I am no fan of our current president, but this whole debate about his intelligence is rather silly. The truth is, we don't know how smart or dumb he is. As liberals, we lose credibility by attacking his intellect. After all, a score of 100 on the SB IQ tests is considered average or normal. Since it's more than likely Bush's IQ is higher than that, at least, by attacking his intellect, we are doing two things:

1. We are giving him more ammunition and credence to be seen as a populist, a "normal Joe." Bill Clinton was smart, but that's not why he was popular. He was popular because he had great populist appeal. Bush's appeal in that regard can be seen to come precisely from his frequent verbal gaffes, and his generally dismal knowledge of the world (though I would bet he's had a crash course in those subjects since January, 2001. If that's a sad statement about the American public, then it's sad, but that doesn't make it Bush's fault.

2. We are opening ourselves up for the good old "intellectual elite" criticism.

Trying to argue that Bush is an idiot is a personal method of attacking the man. I prefer to save my energy for being a skeptic, and when appropriate, criticizing specific policies and issues.

Oh, and by the way.....

George Bush has really bad body odor!

Quark,

How did you get close enough to discover his deep, dark secret?

Point taken, Quark -

Perhaps a better forum would be "How Could the American Public Allow Bush to Steal the White House". Or, "Don't Get Bushwacked".....or "Beating Around the Bush".....who knows.....personally I think that Bush Jr. is pResident, because a great deal of moderate republicans thought they were voting for Bush Sr. - which like you said, isn't his fault.

The constructive nature of this post is....where?

There are other threads here discussing the Election that Will Not Die and pretty much any other Bush bashing thread you might want to partake in.

Hey Andy - if you're interested we already have some threads going related to some of the things you mentioned:

The Election that Wouldn't Die
and
2000 election, why did bush insist the recount stop?

If you'd like, please join us there

That is the standard given by Platypus. By that standard, does climbing and staying on the wagon indicate intelligence?

Turn it around: if a person, after serving as the fraternity kegmeister, were to decide to go into politics and not change his partying ways, what would that say of his intelligence?

Politics is a new game, new rules, different from the Friday night party....

I'm not saying that alcoholism is a sign of intelligence, far from it. I'm simply saying that when confronted with the necessity of change, Bush integrated new information and developed new skills. That meets Platypus's definition.

Dubya is not dumb.

He is a clever man. He was one of his father's strategists in Sr.'s first Presidential campaign. According to THE BUSH DYSLEXICON by Mark Crispin Miller, he engineered the Willie Horton commercials against Michael Dukakis.

As far as the college career goes, I think that he got in because of Daddy. He didn't make high grades because he didn't have to. Why work hard if you don't have to? It amounts to intellectual laziness, not stupidity.
He doesn't like reading books.

As far as the verbal gaffes go, he could have taken the time to have speech coaching (like Barbara Walters) or joined Toastmasters International, an organization devoted to developing good public speakers. But I don't think that was a priority of his.

Dubya has, by and large, done what he has wanted to do. His father's influence made it possible for him to attend the most prestigious schools and remain stateside during Vietnam. To be the campus kegmeister but to finish with an MBA. You can't be too stupid if you're doing what you want to, and not doing what you don't want to do.

Bush has been able to project an image of a likeable guy who makes verbal mistakes but is single-minded in his determination to protect the country from terrorists. His above average intelligence helped him recognize in Karl Rove the ally who would help him project that image.

(edited)

The term "dumb" I assume to refer to intelligence, yet that in itself is ambiguous. It's quite obvious that there are so called "book smarts" and "street smarts." I would not venture to call Mr. Bushy "book smart," but he definitely has my vote for the ability to pull a nation together for his (good or bad) agenda, and hence a reflection of his "street smarts." His "book smarts" would be reflected partly in the effectiveness of his actions in attaining his goals, yet it's hard to tell what exactly those goals are.

Well this is quite a list. For the left, Bush is dumb because he does not agree with their policies which for the right makes him very intelligent indeed. It seems that the ability to lie and disseminate ala clinton/gore is sometimes construed as intelligent. The response is that in many areas being labeled smart is not a compliment. From my point of view, having practical business experience even if some were not a complete success is far preferable to a lifetime in politics. I think we are quite fortunate to have someone who is qualified to fly a fighter jet, with experience in other fields, actually graduated somewhere even if it was an Ivy League school to someone who flunked out of divinity school, never had a real job and although boring, monotoned and wooden but who could get the words right even though they had no connection to truth, reality or success.

For someone that has taken the Republican Party back to Greatness (like Reagan) and advanced his agenda so smoothly and quickly, he couldn't be as stupid as the Libs say. I prefer to think of him as so many Libs thought of Reagan after he left office, underestimated. There is no limit to what he will do with his next four years, that's right you heard it here first. Hear me now, believe me later. What will you do when Bush gains his second term?

Wow, if a Hollywood actor inflicted with alzheimers and a fraternity boy, Awol, irresponsible to the tune of drunken driving record, and appointed President returned the Republican party to Greatness, are we speaking intelligence? or good spin and sheer connections? If the Patriot Act I and II are Republican values, well shoot me in the foot with your NRA approved gun. I dont believe HE advanced his agenda but most likely the Administration and their think tanks advanced their agenda by telling him some crap about the red white and blue and good ole America and bombs are good for liberation, besides a little oil on the side. Tell him anything and he will sell it, with wholehearted American patriotism. A good frontman. True to the family and Halliburton to boot.

Bush has one great quality, blundering. I give you, 'Bring it on' , and remind that President Bush has never known a non air-conditioned day in his life:

Yesterday, when I read that US Commander-in-Chief George W. Bush, in a moment of blustering arm-chair machismo, sent a message to the 'non-existent' Iraqi guerrillas to "bring 'em on," the first image in my mind was a 20-year-old soldier in an ever-more-fragile marriage, who'd been away from home for 8 months.

He participated in the initial invasion, and was told he'd be home for the 4th of July.

He has a newfound familiarity with corpses, and everything he thought he knew last year is now under revision.

He is sent out into the streets of Fallujah (or some other city), where he has already been shot at once or twice with automatic weapons or an RPG, and his nerves are raw.

He is wearing Kevlar and ceramic body armor, a Kevlar helmet, a load carrying harness with ammunition, grenades, flex-cuffs, first-aid gear, water, and assorted other paraphernalia.

His weapon weighs seven pounds, ten with a double magazine. His boots are bloused, and his long-sleeve shirt is buttoned at the wrist.

It is between 100-110 degrees Fahrenheit at midday.

He's been eating MRE's three times a day, when he has an appetite in this heat, and even his urine is beginning to smell like preservatives.

Mosquitoes and sand flies plague him in the evenings, and he probably pulls a guard shift every night, never sleeping straight through.

He and his comrades are beginning to get on each others' nerves.

The rumors of 'going-home, not-going-home' are keeping him on an emotional roller coaster.

Directives from on high are contradictory, confusing, and often stupid.

The whole population seems hostile to him and he is developing a deep animosity for Iraq and all its people--as well as for official narratives.

This is the lad who will hear from someone that George W. Bush, dressed in a suit with a belly full of rich food, just hurled a manly taunt from a 72-degree studio at the 'non-existent' Iraqi resistance.

Full story:http://www.rense.com/general38/bringEmon.htm

I think this President has serious dillusions, especially of his own granduer. Intelligent?, not a chance in hell, hes stupid as the day is long because of overblown ego, not because of SAT scores. He must believe because he landed in a plane in fighter pilots uniform, that he was actually a fighter pilot! He must have some dillusion as he prances in front of the armed forces time and time again that hes a military man. He must actually believe he got more than a C in college. He's a perfect idiot, the emperors got no clothes. Puppet, but a working one. The people deserve the politicians they elect, if only.

If this is a comparative analysis of intelligence based on treatment of the military, let me assure you presidents of the past have been equally stupid. Back when I made those similar observations, though, many who vilify Bush (disclaimer: I'm not saying he's a great guy) today would scowl at me and spit out,"What do you expect from an all volunteer force?"
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard that.

This is clear evidence that Bush is dumb.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article3994.htm

"Rubenstein said, "We put [Bush] on the board and [he] spent three years. Came to all the meetings. Told a lot of jokes. Not that many clean ones. And after a while I kind of said to him, after about three years - you know, I'm not sure this is really for you. Maybe you should do something else. Because I don't think you're adding that much value to the board. You don't know that much about the company."

WOW All the Libs in here do a particularly fantastic job of slashing Bush's personal life and some of his political career, even bashing Ronnie for getting alzhiemer's in his old age. I didn't know it was a political crime to get sick as you get older. Shame on you Artemise. I still say he has made more political success in three years than Clinton (the Libs' hero) did in 8. And Bush still has what? 5 more years!

OK. We've had enough reported posts on this one.

CLOSED.

Mike