As a christian teenager, i have alot of time to think about and debate my religion. I firmly believe that Christ is my savior, that he suffered and died for my sins, and that he is the only way into heaven, but i have some disagreements with some other points of the religion. The one that i am discussing now is whether God is an omnipresent force, altering and directly intervening with the course of human lives, or if he took a step back and decided to watch the world and the course that it took.

I believe that for the past 2 millenia or so God has taken a step back and is no longer a direct force in the life of the human race. I believe that the periods of time that he was a direct force in guiding our fates are divided into two main chronological periods. The first is the creation of the world. God created the world and than for some time he taught, guided, and directed humanity so that the human race would learn his word and how he wanted us to live. After this was done, humanity sent into the right direction he stepped back for a very short time and watched. The second main point on the timeline is of course the life of Jesus Christ. God sent himself down in human form as Jesus Christ to teach humankind the new Word of God. He showed them compassion, love, and forgivness and set the stage, as it were, for the end and judgement of humankind, shortly after Christ ascended into heaven God once again stepped back and watched the world and the events that unfolded.

I believe that God indirectly affects our everyday lives through our own beliefs. Each time somebody does something good, charity, misson trips, etc..., in the name of God he is working there. It Christian's themselves, and their devout faith, that do God's Works. It's said that a man who has faith will live longer than a man who has no faith at all. This is because of a strong belief in something greater and more powerful than we can comprehend. It is our minds and bodies and spirits and faith that do the good things in the name of God.

I leave you with that, discuss, bash my ideas as you wish it's all good i find theology fun to argue.

-Orion

This is an interesting question. My personal opinion is that there are no deities at all. However, I am willing to admit that I am intellectually drawn to the idea of a creationist deity who has no interest at all in humanity and who has not had anything to do with the physical universe since the Big Bang.

From the point of view of the Abrahamic religions, it must seem tempting to think that there was once a time when the actions of God were obvious and miraculous. In modern times, it would seem, these actions always seem to take place via "natural" means. From my point of view, this reflects the increasing ability of humanity to understand natural phenomena. It is possible to postulate that God used to work through "supernatural" means in ancient times (parting the Red Sea, stopping the rotation of the Earth, and so on) and that now "miracles" (someone surviving an airplane crash, etc.) take place by the will of God but through "natural" means.

VS, very good points made. I've become conflicted as to why the creator has decided not to intervene anymore and came up with a few reasons, one of which is your own. Perhaps back in biblical times he did intervene in a supernatural way, or the writers of the bible may have overexaggerated the truth. It is also possible (but against more or less every word of Christianity) that God gave up on humanity and is waiting until he decides to end it to see who kept their faith and followed him to the end.

-O

One possibility that has been suggested is that the God of the Bible has always used "natural" means to work miracles, and that these events were observed by people who did not have sufficient knowledge to understand them as anything but "supernatural." In popular writings, the Star of Bethleham is sometimes "explained" as a supernova (see the classic science fiction story "The Star" by Arthur C. Clarke), as a particularly bright conjunction of planets, or something similar. I tend to be skeptical about this sort of rationalization of ancient miracles. I would tend to believe that they did not happen at all, or that they were genuinely "supernatural" events.

Edited to add link:

Read "The Star" by Arthur C. Clarke here

I agree with this, to an extent. Yes, the Bible shows us many incidences where extraordinary events have taken place, through God's intervention. And yes, such phenomenal events do not seem to be taking place in today's world. However, such "works of God" may be present today, and we're just not perceptive enough, or willing enough, to see them. They could be things that a majority of people don't pay attention to. But just because we don't see them, doesn't me they're not there, or God's not there, helping us out. Look at 9/11. I don't know if this is the best example, but it's the first that came to mind. That day could have been a lot worse than it was, more lives could have been lost. Was God intervening? Maybe. I don't know. And as a result of this day, Americans (at least for a time) banded together as never before.



I definately agree with this. Though God may not be speaking to us with a big, booming voice from the sky, I think He is still present in our lives, and it shows through our actions.

So while I believe that God is sitting and allowing us to make our own choices, I do not believe that He has given up on us and is going to let us drive ourselves into oblivion. (But you never know )

OrionMX,
I am a christian from the UK and hold christ to be my saviour. I would also say that the bible is literal and everything in it was done in the way it is said by the power of God and recorded by his inspiration through prophets and disciples.
Before the flood when God destroyed everything on his creation God became displeased with mans actions as they rebelled against him, so he chose to save Noah and his family as the last remaining followers of him by the time of the flood to build the Ark. After the flood the earth was repopulated and God showed Noah the rainbow and said let this be a sign that i will never with water destroy the earth again.
If you believe God created the universe he purposed for there to be signs and wonders that he would use to show his power and to declare his promises. He is always with his people and will never draw back his over ruling power but he will allow things to happen as they are what we want and as he created us with the ability to choose if he did not let mankind rebel he would be denying his own creation.
I have often wondered what a world without sin would be like, one that held totally to gods plan and never fell corrupted. In modern thinking the idea of a happy care free world where nothing bad happens would be really boring but i beg to differ as everyone would fulfill there true purpose.

The chief purpose of man is to glorify God

Therefore this should be our pursuit in life as christians, to glorify God in everything we do. And if one puts this as thier goal then they have achieved in christ what was meant to be.
Nothing happens but for the will of god and the world only continues because he upholds and sustains it. The revelation is now given and the days of miracles are gone as we have a completed bible through which we know our God and saviour.

my belief of what/who god is. god(or spirit from here on) is in my opinion a non-entital Conscious energy force that permeates all existence, known and unknown. I am of the opinion that spirit does not care about anything, especially corporeal beings. it doesn't judge, or intervene in anything, and just is.

spirit does not love or hate anything as this would violate its very nature of duality. spirit is made of two equal halves, with small amounts of the other incorporated with it, that have been called countless names: good-evil, positive-negative, yin-yang, etc, etc...

it does not and never has intervened with ANY corporeal beings, as it is incapable of doing so. I believe that the voice of god/satan is actually spiritual entities that communicate to people. the entities, being part of existence(unknown part) are affected by spirit, influencing their actions (good-evil) depending on HOW they are affected. they DO have the ability to affect our level of awareness. I believe that thes are what man has constantly called god over time (hence all the different ideas of what "god" wants, and why there are so many religions)

so god is both omnipresent -spirit is "god" spirit is part of everything, even us, and other things which affect our world, thus affects our lives- and observatorial -spirit in pure form simply is and does does nothing to directly effect our world (or others) and simply watches everything.

a little confusing, I know but it works for me.

Hi Unabomber.....on what grounds do you make this assessment? Can you show some sort of reasoning behind it?

I just want to ask you....in what way did you come to know Christ as your Savior? Wasnt it through the scriptures? If you have trusted what the Bible says about Jesus Christ then how can you argue against what it says about the omniscience of God? And if you cannot trust what the scriptures reveal about God.....how can you trust what they reveal about Christ?

Do you see the point I am trying to make?

just faith, for lack of a better word. on what grounds do you (assuming you are a christian, if I may) make the assessment that "god" is an actual being that interferes with human events? and why does he only care about humans? (it is statistically impossible we are the ONLY life in the ENTIRE known universe- check here to see why) I know the bible says so, but that is (supposedly)god's word, but through mans filter, which means it is flawed as man is flawed (says so in the bible) and how do you even know that the bible's god is real, "he" can't be proven to exist. it is scientific fact that all matter has energy in it. heck, all matter is is energy slowed to a lower "vibration"(as in it's movement has slowed so as to be solid and material) that energy is what is released in a nuclear reaction (atomic weapons, stars - the energy and light received from the sun is NESSECARY for life BTW) my belief is that energy is spirit. (it may or may not be conscious, or in other words, aware) but it is not capable of experiencing things (including interaction) on any level of awareness, thus physical (or corporeal) beings. (that is my OPINION)

if there were but one entity known as god (good) and another as satan (evil) then there would be TWO religions, one worshipping god(though many denominations based on interpretations) and the other satan. instead there are tens of thousands of different religions, almost all can trace their roots to a person claiming to talk to god. (exception being polytheistic beliefs in which case it's a person talking to gods) now, either just ONE is correct, or they all come from people talking to spirits, or entities outside our awareness. there are thousands, possibly millions of reports of ghosts and what not, that it is highly probable they actually exist. these beings being a part of existence are effected by spirit, and influenced to act based on the way it interacts with them (positive mixing with negative. even the nicest person has at least a few bad thoughts and actions just as the worst person has some good ones, it's that way with EVERYTHING) thus the positive influenced "spirits"(ie "god") try to influence our world for good and negative ones for evil (ie "satan")

my beliefs are an assorted mix of several teachings, including dualistic daoism, animism(ie animals and plants and such have their own spirits) and pantheism (all is god, god is all) I call myself a dualistic, animistic pantheist. it works for me, and that is all that really matters.

Hi again Sorry it took so long to reply.

So your answer is "just faith" and then you immediately ask me to explain myself? I thought we were talking about you?



so where does the 'spirit' come from to begin with? It has to originate somewhere, right? There must be some sort of controlling influence behind it, dont you think?



I suppose so but if you are willing to accept all of this subjective information into your thinking, then why do you flat out reject the notion of One God, Who is creator of all? Is it really such a far out idea to you...when you are able to wrap your brain around these other eastern-flavored philosophies?

Interferes? You misrepresent my Biblical beliefs. I'd never agree with such a thing. To suggest that God "interferes" assumes that God is barging in where He is not supposed to be. God, being the Creator of all, has every right to do as He wishes with what is His.
He doesnt care about humans only. What gave you that idea?

When you encounter people who do not consider the Bible as anything but another source of literature, quoting Scripture verses really isn't going to persuade them of the veracity of anything you say. In light of that, I am just going to write my opinion, because without the validation of a recognized source, it is only my opinion.

God made us because it was God's pleasure to make us. It may have been hundreds of thousands or billions of years ago. I don't care personally, because I believe the present and the future matter more.

God created the universe and put into motion various principles and laws governing what happens, like gravity and time and the like. God does not appear to favor going against these laws and principles unless there are very special circumstances. Does it mean that God doesn't care about us? No. It means he (now I'm betraying my Catholicism) set the universe in motion and likes the way it works.

God is omnipresent and is an observer. Certainly, when compared to any of us, he is an objective observer. But if he sees something he wants changed, he is perfectly capable of changing it to suit him.

The big glitch in the cosmic plan is the same thing that supposedly sets humankind apart from the rest of creation--free will.

Are we going to say that God doesn't care about us because, like with the universe, he allows us to experience the consequences of our actions and the consequences of the actions of those around us? No.

Does he love us? I would say yes, because I believe that his only begotten son, Jesus of Nazareth, came to be an example for us, to teach us and to die as a sacrifice for the sins that we ourselves could not atone for.

Jesus, being who he is, arose from the dead, and after spending time with his mother and his followers, ascended into heaven, promising us that he will come back, but of the time only the Father knows.

This is my opinion. This is my faith. I will not cite Bible verses.

I have presented why I believe that God is omnipresent and not just an observer, but actually intervenes (not interferes) in the lives of humanity. But because we don't always welcome people into our lives (our free will), it is not God's practice to just insinuate himself into the lives of those who don't want him.

I dont get it......every belief you have listed is derived from the Bible....yet you wont list it as your source? *confused* You expect people to take your word for it rather than show them in the scriptures how you arrived at your beliefs? Well, just because they dont believe the scriptures are God's divinely inspired word doesnt mean that it is any less authoritative to them than to you and I. Truth is truth.....if people dont believe it it is their problem not yours. As professing Christians, our duty is to present the gospel of Christ, found only in the Bible, not just hide behind our opinions and downplay scripture for fear that it doesnt work! List your sources and let them speak for themselves. There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinions along with it but holding them in higher esteem than the scriptures is not a wise choice.

I might add that it was through systematic logical examination of the scriptures that I was convinced of their truth, not by the opinions of other Christians or any church, as I was without a church for the first 3 years of my salvation.

Making assumptions like the one you've made above is not wise, either. You don't know me, young one.

Do you think I am hiding???? Check my other posts. (You can, you know, just check under Members.) You can check the postings of other Christians in this forum, they run the gamut of quoting chapter and verse, condemning gays, all the way to one writing, "believe it or not; but if you don't, you're going to hell." Boy, that's a really great way to speak of God's love, isn't it? Converts lots of people. Fear of hell and all that. Except it makes people defensive, closes their minds right up. Sure, I've quoted Scripture verses throughout my postings, and you know what? NOBODY ever says anything in response to it!! That's right! Maybe they figure if they ignore it, it will go away, or maybe it's an awkward silence, I don't know. What I do know is that it's a REAL QUICK WAY TO END A CONVERSATION around here.

Of course the Bible is my source--and those who believe will readily recognize that--there is a reason for my doing this: If others will listen a little more closely because I'm not constantly citing chapter and verse, then at least they are listening!! Personally, I'd rather keep a conversation going, and I'm not afraid to read and examine the opinions of others that are different from mine. God in his omniscience did give wisdom to all people and cultures, and I am here to learn, too.

Simple enough, eh?

God has the power. We are to be ready when asked the reason for the hope that is within us, when ASKED. People do not like to be pushed, that's all.

I don't expect people to accept anything on MY word, one way or another! But this forum is for posting opinions, and I might be wrong, but it seems like those who post here would much rather hear what others think rather than having chapter and verse quoted to them.

If people want to hear chapter and verse, they can turn on the t.v. or radio, or they can go to church, or they can go to a Christian neighbor or friend and ask. They know where they can get chapter and verse any time they want it.

Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. Ask, seek, knock--these are all things that the SEEKER does, when the seeker decides it is time. It is their free will; I do not decide that for them. (And you may be surprised how many atheists, agnostics, free thinkers, etc. are in this forum who probably know more Bible verses than you do.) And I think their primary reason for being in this forum is to exchange ideas, not just be told.

God does not want us to worry about other people--prayer and living the life as best we are able are our responsibilities, we can't decide when another person is ready to take a step of faith.

My belief, based on personal experience, is that God does care for us.. That's all I want to convey. That's what this thread is about.

But I'll tell you what. If you would like this thread to read like a religious tract, I will keep my opinions on faith and religion to myself and I will just post in non-religious threads where I can just write and not worry about what other Christians think.

lol, and you know me well enough to call me young? I dont know if I should take you to task for assuming that or give you a big ole hug

I am sorry if you took my comments so personally. I took your words to mean that you did not believe scripture is important enough to defend. If I am wrong then I apologize for misunderstanding you. As for reading your posts.....my head hurts from all of the reading I am trying to do here. If I paid attention to each and every posts, I would never be able to go ahead and jump into the discussion. Be patient with me please. This forum is not my main hangout. I can only start from here and go forward. Your post is the first I have read from you. Let me get to know you from now on, but please dont rely on your reputation to sway me. My comments were based on your words in the post that I replied to, not on you as a whole. I've made you angry, I am sorry.

No, that is a disrespectful way to speak to people. We ought to be able to state the truth without rubbing peoples noses in it. I believe the command was to preach the truth in love, not in arrogance and contempt for others who step on your tender toes.

So? Does that excuse you from using it in evangelizing? Ever thought that maybe they cant answer because they dont know how to?

I agree with you.......but how does quoting scripture as your source equate with pushing people? *confused*

"Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching" 2 Tim. 4:2 I beg to differ.....but as a believer you are required to preach the word. That is the only point I was trying to make here.


As for this forum.....it is a debate forum so you should expect to have your beliefs challenged, yes, even by other christians.

I never asked you to do this. You've taken it upon yourself to make some of your own assumptions about me....something you have just chided me for. A little hypocritical, isnt it?

[quote=valley,Jul 17 2003, 01:24 PM]
[/QUOTE]
I dont get it......every belief you have listed is derived from the Bible....yet you wont list it as your source? *confused* You expect people to take your word for it rather than show them in the scriptures how you arrived at your beliefs? Well, just because they dont believe the scriptures are God's divinely inspired word doesnt mean that it is any less authoritative to them than to you and I. Truth is truth.....if people dont believe it it is their problem not yours. As professing Christians, our duty is to present the gospel of Christ, found only in the Bible, not just hide behind our opinions and downplay scripture for fear that it doesnt work! List your sources and let them speak for themselves. There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinions along with it but holding them in higher esteem than the scriptures is not a wise choice.

I might add that it was through systematic logical examination of the scriptures that I was convinced of their truth, not by the opinions of other Christians or any church, as I was without a church for the first 3 years of my salvation. [/quote]
You say this as though the Bible is the sole source of all good ideas. Most of the teachings in the good book are not original, and nearly all moralistic ideas in this world also exist in the religions and philosophies of other cultures, most of which existed before the Bible was written. For the most part, the Old Testament was taught verbally for generations. Writing it down for others to read was not an issue, most people couldn't read until very recently in our history.
The knowledge of God and his son Jesus and their teachings, and our willing subjugation to the teachings is what makes us followers of the word. I don't believe in a God that wants us to worship him in a slave-like manner. There has to be more to it than that. My own studies leads me to the conclusion that most ministers of the word have selfish motives, which includes a good paycheck for very little real work. Preacher directed bible studies tend to be in support of what they want you to believe, and anything that might conflict with that is carefully avoided. Self study, and listening with an open mind to biblical scholars from other religions, can lead you to what may be a better truth for you individually. It works for me.

I assumed you're a 'young one.' Correct me if I'm wrong. And if I implied in some way that I have "a reputation" here rather than conveying that I have had some experience quoting Bible verses, I apologize.

No need really to apologize. I'm just not in the mood to argue with anyone about anything. My faith is what I stated. But I am willing to read and learn what I can from other posters.

This thread is yours, Valley.

(edited for clarification)

guess it depends on how old you are. If you are near 40 then I am probably young to you, if you are below 30, then I am probably old to you. I've looked at the age poll here....looks like I am in the "middle aged" category at the ripe old age of 35



I did not come here with a contentious attitude. I am here to discuss the issues amicably, learn from others and hopefully teach a bit too. But in order to discuss, I have to start somewhere....





I dont get it....have I done something wrong here?

No, Valley. You haven't done anything wrong.

I'm just a little battle weary of late. As a member of the peace movement, I have struggled these past few months. It is a matter of conscience. I have been in a group of very thoughtful people who have peace at the forefront of their minds, and yet in other ideologies we are so very different. I am an odd duck in the group, being pro-life and believing that Christ is going to return but not being willing to send troops into war regardless if it means that this process might or might not be hastened. I do not believe the United Nations is the anti-Christ, but I am aware that yes, it could be used in the future for the one world government spoken of in Revelation. I just believe that when diplomacy is an option, it must be tried until there is breakthrough, or until all of the peaceful options are truly exhausted.

A woman in my group is a Unitarian Universalist minister. She has been put down in the newspapers because she is pro-choice and her pro-peace stance has been derided because of this. Yet she is a lovely, dedicated woman who is highly principled. Her church is welcoming of gays as well as agnostics and atheists. Quakers attend there. It is similar to a microcosm of the world.

It has been a real exercise in learning for me. I believe with all of my heart that God cares for all of us, even though we do not hold the same beliefs. I could let our ideological differences separate us or I could very quietly fail to mention our differences. I have chosen to do neither, but to quietly state my beliefs when there are differences, and to demonstrate for peace with the others because I believe it is God's will that we not war with each other but seek peaceful solutions to our differences.

Some in the peace group shun (never burn) the flag and the red, white, and blue color scheme because of the nationalism/militarism that has been associated with it. I do not want to be co-opted out of using the colors of the country of my birth. While we share the belief that this country is not right on its present course, I am still an American and I do love my country.

Somewhere in all of these apparent contradictions, God is right there caring for us. But the circumstances don't feel like rooting for the home team on homecoming night. It is more of a profound sadness.

If I use Bible verses in conversation other than the familiar "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God," there is an uneasiness, just as the time when someone started to scoff when the idea of the end times was mentioned; that is until I stated that I believe in the end times but I believe it is our responsibility to keep working for peace anyway, not to give this old world up to war and conquest.

I am sorry; somewhere this became a ramble. From my 50 years of living, my overwhelming conclusion has to be that God cares about each and every one of us, and that he has never let me down, just let me experience the consequences of my actions from time to time. When he didn't, it was grace, and I've been grateful.

Paladin Elspeth.

Well said, Its refreshing to see someone tired of all the ramble, even on a debate forum. It seems to me that things would get a little less chaotic if the debates were a little more substantive. Peace makers have a tough way to go in this world, it seems there are never enough to go around.

"I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men form every nation who fear him and is what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."
(Acts 10:35,36)

Grace and peace

I believe that God is everpresent in our lives, and performs miracles everyday which we are free to acknowledge or ignore.
I would rather not believe in God than think he was indifferent (don't remember where I heard that one, but I agree).