Keep in mind I speak about the majority of the people.
I personally feel that blacks are more racist! Perfect example, it is correct to have a Black Entertainment Channel, however shows that had no blacks in it had to be rewritten to include atleast 1 person of a "minority race" brought on by the black community. Why is it ok to have BET with NO white people on it, but we can not have a White Entertainment Channel (which would probably have to be renamed since WET wouldn't be a very appropriate station name )? If you look at any social group you will see color defined sides and what generally tends to happen (even at a church of all places) is that the Blacks tend to migrate over to the other blacks and the whites over to the wites. I feel that one of the main contributors to that is the face that blacks can say things to other blacks that whites cant say to blacks, ie. "sup my nigga" coming from a white person would be offensive but black to black means nothing since the person saying it is black.

Heres some examples of what would be appropriate for blacks to have, but if whites did the same thing then there would be hatred, riots and endless court cases on the grounds of racism; United Negro Collage Foundation, Black History Month, African American News Paper, Bernie Mack Show (all black cast), and the list goes on...

If a white man calls a black man a nigger then theres all hell to pay, infact you can go to jail for it since it is considered to be slandering and since its racial slandering it can be considered a hate crime. On the other hand if a black person calls a white person a cracker, even though its still slandering, nothing tends to happen due to the fact that the white man is not a minority (legally) there fore its not a hate crime and through a legal stand point its no more than chialds play.

Well, that's my point. It would be a little redundant to have a WET since there's already, uh, let me think for a second...ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, CNN, etc. Is it just the fact that it's named BET, that bothers you, jjbcd? So Bernie Mac has an all-black cast - how many black people are in the Friends/Will and Grace/Seinfeld/Frasier casts? None. Does that bother you?

You need to seriously rethink your argument here.

Do you really think that all black people greet eachother this way with impunity? I personally have never heard two black people who do not know each other say "'sup my nigga" when they pass in the street. Likewise, a white man may greet his friend: "I say, Wainright, you bastard, how the hell are you? (wazzzzup, muthablankah?)" Is such a greeting used generally, to those you pass on the street? I doubt it. Could such a greeting be misinterpreted if a stranger issued it, white OR black? Definitely. Oh, and the bass player for my band for a while was a very talented musician, who happened to be black - whenever we greeted, you might guess what we said - "'sup, my nigga." He referred to our trumpet player, a white guy who was kind of a redneck at times, as "Crackalacka" (from "cracker," obviously). Now, I see a big difference in tone between "nigger" and "nigga," as well as between "crackalacka" and "cracker." If some random black man wandered over to our trumpet player and said "you cracker," I would think, "uh-oh. Trouble." Likewise, if a random white man wanders up to a group of black people and says "you nigger."

What really needs to change in society is the entire paradigm of thought which your post aptly represents. Getting in little racial "digs" while decrying racism, fosters an "us and them" mentality which only furthers divisiveness. This happens in people of all races, but given the history of our nation, it is more incumbent upon the power-holders to embrace a new paradigm, than upon the very people who were forced to identify themselves primarily within the context of their skin colour.

Ok for starters, if you look at the fox fall line up, as well as the WB, you will find a primarily black line up. Second of all there are other tv shows that are primarily mexican... ie the George Lopez Show. Granted there are tv shows that do have mostly a white cast, however they show black people and usually when they do the guests have a LARGE role in the show, not a little 1 liner spot. In a average 1 month time span on BET you will find 0-1 white people appearing, however if you look at ANY other network you will find an primairly black show, now if they have their own network then why is it a must to have an all black show on EVERY network?

On a personal note, you talk about me having to seriously rethink my argument but you lack any response to the points I made about the United Negro College Foundation, Black History Month and so on... what are your thoughts about that? I think that if you are going to take a cut at me you need to read the whole story and figure things out before you speak.

Correct me if i'm wrong but what i'm reading into this is that you are trying to say that its easier for the white man to accept equality, but its harder for the black man since they were slaves due to the color of their skin. First of all slavery was how long ago? The only black people left that were actually alive during the slave times are now on medicare, you would think that time would change things and the fact that youth today (20 and under) can even hold a grudge for what happened in the past is mind boggling!!! Here is an example of how "minorities" cry for equality however they dont want to give up their minority status... in california their trying to pass a law banning the state from collecting any racialy identifible information (except in the booking process for jail which is understandable for public profileing in case of a jail break... makes recapture much easier!) however the mexicans are completely against it useing the excuse that it might effect their health care (keep im mind most are getting free health care from the state) and human services, aka welfare, food stamps and so on. Now how can a popluation that crys for equality turn around and say that the state needs to collect their racial information so it doesnt screw up their state paid health care? If people really want equality they need to drop all lines, starting with dropping racialy identifible information, all the way down to these little digs of racism!!!

jjbcd, Please avoid double posting, especially if nobody has posted after you. You can use the EDIT function up to twelve hours from the time you post to add or change anything.

Are you joking? There are tv shows that do have a mostly white cast? Every tv show on the major networks has a mostly white cast, with the exception of, say, five shows, which seem to be the ones that really get your goat.



Private institutions are free to give money to whomever they feel is deserving, and if the terrible inequity being perpetrated on the white man by the UNCF dismays you so much, my suggestion is you become very wealthy and give money only to needy white people (although, statistically, poverty levels run approximately three times higher among blacks).
As to black history month - as the joke goes, the Man gave them the shortest month (February). But seriously, do you remember your elementary school history classes? Eleven months out of the year, it's White History - Christopher Columbus to Dubya. American public school curriculum was written by and for people of white European descent, its content is eurocentric and fairly exclusionary. Would it make you happier if there was White History Month in January? That way white kids wouldn't have all that black history shoved down their throats that they normally get all year, like, um...George Washington Carver and uh...who's that one female poet...
My point is, you're living in a country whose culture, politics, and main institutions are white. You just don't see it because it's so pervasive. White people don't need white newspapers - we've got the New York Times. We don't need white magazines - we have the New Yorker. We don't need WET - we have ABC. We don't need FUBU, we have Levi's, etc, etc...

incumbent:
Function: adjective

1 : imposed as a duty : OBLIGATORY

I didn't say it was easier for the "white man" to accept equality. I said it was more incumbent upon the power structure to be corrective; the idea was, blacks can "accept" equality all day long, but until the (predominately white) power structure truly accepts it, societal change isn't going to happen.

Let's say there is a man named John Doe who, as the result of an auto accident, is confined to a wheelchair for life. The fact of that wheelchair becomes the central context of his life - because everything he does has to be thought of in the context of that wheelchair - where can I go? How am I going to get there? Is there an elevator? Is there a ramp? Is the hallway wide enough? John is not obsessed by his wheelchair - but because the world at large was not built with wheelchairs in mind, he must think in terms of it. John decides to become political, and (no surprise) his focus is on obtaining equal access for those in wheelchairs. Is he prejudiced against non-wheelchair-bound people? No, he is justifiably motivated by a cause central to his life.

If the legacy of slavery and the century of Jim Crow laws is completely gone, then we should see no economic or societal disparities between whites and blacks and Hispanics. Yet these disparities do exist. Minorities make less money on average, even in the same jobs, than whites - a fact. Minorities own fewer assets, on average, than whites - another fact. How do you explain the various studies done in the last ten years, in which blacks with identical resumes, but "ethnic" sounding names, were almost universally not hired over whites? That black people were charged more for cars, denied more loans, and so on?

I'm not denying that racism exists in minorities - it exists in all corners of our society, though I believe it is waning. I'm saying that for many blacks and Hispanics, like our wheelchair-riding John Doe, being black or Hispanic is still the central context of their lives. And that is not a choice one makes. It is imposed by a structure which forces one to think in terms of one's race.

You are beginning to be fun to debate, you atleast have some intellect and are able to put things into terms that i can understand.... obviously the dictionary is not my strong point... lol.... anyways, granted blacks do typically have less property, get declined for loans more and make less money, but when you look at the biggest fact you will see why. Look at the statistics, there are FAR more blacks on welfare and state support compared to the whites!!! If you go through the ghetto you will find atleast 3/4 of the neighborhood is on welfare or foodstamps, now go through a trailer park (aka the white ghetto) you will find roughly 1/4 of the people on welfare or foodstamps and that IS a fact! I'm not trying to say that all blacks are on welfare, but a vast majority of all blacks are on some sort of state/govt help program. Now when you are on a help program you will see that you make less money and have less of a chance at financing due to the fact that its supposed to be "help" and if its help that means that you are not in a situation where you can take on more bills. I'm not trying to make a cut at the black population, however i am saying that there is a lot more blacks on help programs as compared to whites, so when you look at your statistics their swayed due to the fact that they don't look at peoples source of income and lifestyles, all that they look at is the number of people in each race plain and simple. As far as people of opposite races in the same lifestyles making the same amount of money you will find that generally the white person has more assets, but look at who marketing - mostly in the clothing and fast food industries - is directed towards. It is a proven fact that blacks will go out and spend $100 for a pair of FUBU jeans, where as a white person will go out and pay $20 for the same pair of jeans but without a name brand. It is also proven that blacks eat 4 times as much fast food as whites, and if you are in charge of shopping you will find that home cooked meals are MUCH cheeper than eating fast food!!!! Now when you spend all of this extra money on fast food and name brands then of course you will have less assets... your wasteing your money on a name and lazy cooking!!!!!

When it comes to the jobs look at the tax breaks companies get for hireing minorities and equal oppertunity laws. Every single day there are more and more white people getting turned down for jobs to an underqualified person of a minority race soley based upon race. Now if that underqualified person gets the job and their already working why should they have more of a chance to advance when someone else applying for a higer up posistion within the same company has more qualifications? Thats why polls show that blacks generally make less money because typically their hired with less qualifications than their peers who may be white. Granted there are a lot of blacks that get less of an education compared to whites, but its not solely because of the school. The biggest factor in a chialds education is the chialds home life!!! If a kid of any race has a parent thats a drug addict their 100 times less likely to get as good of an education as a kid whose father is say a lawyer because the kid with the bad homelife worries less about homework and more about his friends and takeing care of his/her self because the parent(s) are unable to do so. What every single educational poll seems to miss and factor in is the homelife and parenting of the chiald. When you miss that factor then all is lost because every single poll on every person after that becomes greatly inaccurate!!! Im sure an administrator for AD is going to say that im getting off of the topic, but education factors into all of the polls that say blacks have less money, less assets and get lower paid jobs, and when polls are off it can create racism because people feel that their race is getting the short end of the stick.

Basically, when it comes down to prejiducy, personally, from what I have experienced (between growing up on a farm in MN to living in the absolute worse area in central CA to livenig in a safe, racialy diverse comunity in CA) I have noticed that in a group of 100 white people there will be 30 that dont like black and their very outspoken about it, so out spoken that those 30 people sound like 300, however in a group of 100 black people there will be 99 blacks that are prejiduce twards whites. Polls, education, jobs, money, asstes, ect all play a role in their prejiducies. If you want to have fun talk to a black person and a white about this topic. Start with a person of each race who is very well off, then go talk to a person of each race who has very little. You will find almost no feelings of racism from the rich black person because they made it in what people call the "white mans world" because they were not discriminated against and because they did everything they could to get where they are. You will find that the broke black person doesnt like the white people because they feel that it is the white man that is keeping them where they are, typically they will take no responsibility for their financial mess that they created due to bad spending habits. The rich white man will usually be at a half point about racism because they see jails and prisions that have a majority of blacks or hispanics in it depending upon the area that the jail or prision is in. But he will feel less racist because he has met "higher class" black people who work hard for what they have and usually dont feel prejiduce against whites. Finally talk to the poor white person and you will find they are prejiduce twards the black person because they cant get welfare but their next door broke neighbor who is black is on it, and they have a harder time finding a job because that less qualified black person gets the job their lookin for because of tax breaks and so on which also makes them blame their financial messes on the blacks. You should do it... its fun, and it gives you a better understanding of people in general.

WOW.... this was a long response.... hope i didnt loose you cauz when i reread it i almost got lost!

Your so right. Its a reel shame that black folks caint compete with whites and have to live off the welfare of everybody. There taking the white jobs because of affirmative action and not cauz there smarter or deserve it simply because there getting a handout. I dont know why whites with good educations are getting passed over for minorities its just not fair. These blacks are wasting there money on expensive cloths and macdonalds when they should be saving for there future and trying to make it in the world by maybe geting a college education. I think there just lazy and want everything eazy. Im glad their are intellligunt people here who understand theese things and we can talk about it understanding each other.

Its sad but true. ( and admittedly a nasty response)

Wow, jjbcd, as an admin, you've put me in a tough situation. Our rules state: (emphasis mine)

Your post is full of unsubstantiated "facts" (as you call them). I think it is very important for you to provide sources of these supposed facts. Otherwise, this is beginning to appear as if you are baiting some members here.

In particular, these comments:
and

and

Your final paragraph is so full of vague generalizations, I don't even know what to quote.

PLEASE back these statements up.

Nope, doesn't bother me any more than it bothered me that there were no white actors on The Cosby Show, Sanford & Son, What's Happening or any of the many other all-black shows on network television. You didn't see whites screaming that they had to put a token white guy in them either.

Quarkhead writes:


In almost every way, the legacy is gone but we're still seeing the residual effects. This has nothing to do with racism, but with poverty. A large number of minorities live in the 'ghetto' for lack of a better term. Poverty begets poverty. If you're poor, have no education, etc. it's virtually impossible to get out of the ghetto and the next generation will have the same problem. That's not based on race, it's based on finances. It's not just the economically-disadvantaged blacks that have the problem, it's EVERYONE in that economic strata, black, white, hispanic, whatever. Poor, uneducated whites have just as much trouble as poor, uneducated blacks do, but minorities tend to see things in terms of skin color, not poverty.

Until and unless individuals in the ghetto are willing to get a good education, pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get rid of the ridiculous ghetto culture and get out of that life, nothing is going to change. And it isn't whitey holding them down either.

If you're not screaming about the lack of token white people on black shows, Cephus, that's wonderful - but if you'd refer back to the post I was addressing, there clearly are some (or at least one) white person(s) bothered by this fact. Unless, of course, jjbcd is black, which I kind of doubt.

Here's a question that is a bit off-topic, but I think it's pertinent to this discussion. I just received a jury form questionaire, and one of the items requested is 'Race', with a note that this is 'required by state law'. The question is: Isn't merely asking this question implying and therefore reinforcing prejudice? If so, shouldn't our government be trying to do just the opposite? I don't see anything on the form asking for my height, weight, hair color, eye color and any other physical distinction, just 'Race'. By its very nature, this question is prejudicial, and answering it merely reinforces the notion. Are white people not capable of judging blacks? Or visa versa? Even if this is true, can the problem ever be solved by so blatantly continuing it?

Interestingly, there's not a single question on the form regarding income, which is a much better predictor of societal norms than race.

My Grandfather once told me that as he was a kid..he overheard a group of african-american men talking on how..."One Day we will own those whites"

He had also explained to me that back about 30 years ago, im not quite sure of his name but a person had traveled all around America,just observeing what went on...And he had proclaimed that In the year 2020, there will be more blacks then whites, and we will be the monority.

ive had a few experiences with African-American kid's comeing up to me and yelling "Hey White Boy!" Which.seems racist to me, but as i said i do believe blacks are more racist then whites are.

I may be wrong, because there are some more extreme whites then blacks, or more extreme blacks then whites

Racism is in every ethinicy. White, Blacks, asians, arabs, native americans whatever. Based on people I know and what I've seen, I think that everyone is a bit racist. I mean, not to the degree of all blacks are blah or all white are blah or whatever just in a little way. I'm not sure of the main reasons. I mean there is history between two ethinic groups that could lead to future racism or the way that they were raised or what has been done to them by certain individuals. But that's just what I think.

What is black? What is racism? What is white?

Is someone of Asian descent considered white?

If a person is 60% Ethiopian, 20% Irish, and 20% Chinese and is a complete racist how would you divide that up?

If you think that blacks are better at sports than whites and you are black is that self-esteem or racism? And against who?

If you feel that colleges should have affirmative action programs are you being racist? or enlightened?

If 60% of "white people" think that 50% of "black people" are great people some of the time and the rest are low-lifes most of the time are they racist or just confused?

Can a black person be racist? What if he hates Japanese people just because they look white, even though they may never have oppressed blacks?

What if you feel that blacks are actually superior to whites and you hate them for that, is that racist?

What if a group of imminent black scientists came to the conclusion that blacks were inferior to whites; would they be racist? If they got their jobs through affirmative action would you trust their results? If you believed them would you be racist or just misinformed?

What if you think that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites but are superior in speed, strength, agility, sexual prowess, physical beauty, and musical ability; are you racist?

Hey reality, welcome to AD.

What point are you trying to make?

I think everything depends on the individual everyone has a different perception of the wolrd around them.

But I believe that if blacks were a majority they would treat white people worse than white people have treated them. Not that I believe that nonsense that white people are going to become extinct or that they would become a minority or anything like that(leave that nonsense to bamboozle weakminded). I merely notice that blacks constantly demand justice and equlity yet I know (well I read) of many cases when blacks who were in the majority treated whites worse than whites treated blacks in similar situations. If you are black ask yourself what if the whole world population was black with white minority would you disciminate against whites? (Probably yes) And if you answer yes can you really have any complaints when you are discriminated against since you would have done the same if you were in that other(discriminating)persons place?

Cheers!

Even accepting that blacks would discriminate more as true, I think the argument's pretty circular. The resentment many blacks feel toward whites is on historically firmer ground than the resentment some whites feel toward them. I'm sure plenty of white kids in black neighborhoods get picked on, quite possibly beaten, etc., but that's not exactly the same as slavery and it's remnants. Before anyone gets their panties in a twist protesting that slavery was "long ago, and far away" remember that our current generation of leaders lived through the civil rights era. George Wallace wasn't that long ago.

By comparison, what's the white man's complaint? That if we're in the bottom of a pool of applicants for a position, we might get cut? That's definitely worse than slavery, etc.



I don't know that I accept that blacks in general are waiting eagerly to discriminate, but I'm sure some black leaders would love to "settle the score". I'm far from seeing how this excuses the same moronic and infantile behavior by whites. A bigot is bigot no matter what their color, and they should be shunned and ridiculed by polite society.

I think a racist is a racist and the color of their skin has nothing to do with it. If they harbor hate it's because of their shortcomings and ignorance. Saying one race is more racist than another race is an ignorant broad definition in itself and feeds the whole racist cancer in this country.

It would be hard not to become a racist when the majority of people look at the color of your skin and treat you according to your color and their preconceptions instead of looking at you as a fellow human being.

It's not a matter of one race being more racist than another; it depends on individual and collective circumstances.

Are Blacks more racist than whites?

I don't think so. If anything, I'd say that all human beings share an equal propensity to stupidity and violence.

And looking at it from a cultural point of view, then I'd have to say it really all balances out. The only reason why 'white' people have demonstrated a greater level of racism towards all other races, is because they had the opportunity to do so.

And, if history shows us anything, then its that all human societies are more or less the same, and every nation on the planet (bar Iceland perhaps) has at some point or other in its history, demonstrated the fundamental human characteristic of self delusion.

In America, today, perhaps, the problem is shifted some what, but I think this is only natural since you cannot stop a pendulum in mid curve. It will take time for the reverberations to decrease.

So on reflection, concerning the USA, I would have to say that yes, perhaps, there is a greater feeling regarding race, amongst 'black' people than amongst 'white' people.
But I really don't see how that should be much of a problem considering what led to that greater feeling.

For my own part I live in a part of the world where 'black' people are so scarce that they hardly even register as an ethnic minority, and I have rarely have much to do with any body who was not a Scandinavian by descent. In fact there is only one 'black' person in my life today, and I only rarely meet him in a work capacity.

When I lived in England however (when I was a student) I was informed by a 'black' woman, that 'black' men were all racist pigs, and especially African men. When I asked her what she meant, she told me that amongst themselves, 'black' people look down on each other for being more 'black'.

Apart from being depressed by this news, I found it very difficult to understand, is it racism if one lighter skin manned considers a darker skinned man inferior? I suppose it is.

At the same time, my father hates anyone who is not 'white' who comes to Denmark, but has no problem with htem if they remain in 'their part of the world'. Is that racism? I think so.

I can only conclude there fore that racism is alive and well and more or less lives in the hearts of all human beings.

I don't like the terms 'Black' and 'White' as you may have guessed. I find them very annoying since they do not refer to the wealth of people who really are neither.


Hobbes



If I were you I'd write human being.

I agree with you Billy Jean that racism is a disease of the mind, body and soul and not a hard-wired trait that is predisposed to one group over the over.

However I disagree that saying one race is more racist than another "is an ignorant broad definition." Perhaps that is so in terms of genetic disposition, but in terms of actual practice and implementation of racism, I think it can be demonstrated that one group has engaged in more racist behavior when compared to another.

How can that be demonstrated in the US in the twenty first century? In the past, yes, we had slavery, segregation and the such, but how is it possible in todays society? I think racism today is done more on an individual and personal level and is would be much harder to gauge.

Edited to add: The only ones who think racism is relevant are those that choose hold on to it, both blacks and whites, but in my opinion, they are slowly either dying off or being ignored.

Let's start off with me saying that I personally am not racist. I dislike all people equally but get alone with everyone. Everyone has their flaws but everyone also offers something to society regardless of what it is. If they weren't important they wouldn't be here.
Second no I do not believe that any certain race hates one more than another, once again there are a few unintelligent people that dislike someone because of a grudge against someone of a certain "color". People are only racist because they are P.O. about something that more than likely happened a long time ago and probably can’t remember what it ever was. I think this is all stupid. If you are going to dislike someone do it for the right reasons not because of their race, color, religion, etc. do it because you just plain flat out don’t like that individual person not everyone that might look like him/her.
Third, to the individual with all of the “facts” about spending habits of races, I found all of your remarks of comparisons between two different races quite well stupid. Yes, if you live near the “ghetto” then you would have a valid example of spending habits but there is life outside of the “ghetto”

This was written by DAVID WHALEN (a black man) which is a writer in Kansas City:
“African Americans more often rely on brands to make informed purchase decisions. Brands help to define status, identity and trendiest for African Americans, especially early adopters and trendsetters. The analysis states that of the $543 billion of earnings blacks received in 2000, $400 to $500 billion of that went towards purchasing goods and services. On average, black households in the United States spent more than $24.7 billion on apparel products and services; $31.337 billion on new and used cars; $52.9 billion on entertainment and leisure; and only $5.4 billion on education.

What this article does not say is how the African American community has grown over the past 20 years and is a huge buying power in today’s global market. They are earning higher degrees in college than ever before and also starting more small businesses only to expand to larger sometimes corporations. (U.S. Census)
I don’t know about you but American Eagle, Gap, and Abercrombie & Fitch, sure aren’t racking in all of the dough from different races they are raking it all in from us white folks; that’s all name brand.

So to just down right strike any credit away from a race of what I see as hard workers, one should be able to back up all personal feelings and so called “facts”.
To end all agruements about racism, sexism, and discrimination we as a human race should do one simple thing Quit Labeling People The bottom line is that we are all equal and when you die you'll figure it out.

Which way to the magic kingdom you're living in Billy Jean? Let me ask you this. Is the homophobia you face as a lesbian equally dead and gone as racism? Is the bigotry you face as a religious person a thing of the past?

It's a deliciously quaint notion that only those who "choose (to) hold on to it" make racism relevant, but it reflects a disturbing lack of awareness of the very real racism that still afflicts us all---black and white and everyone else---today.

If racism is "dying off" why is it that it still persists long after many of it's most infamous perpetrators have shuffled off to their not-so-great reward? If racism is something that can be "ignored" why are there so many threads on America's Debate devoted to the subject. For a concept that is dying off and being ignored it sure seems to have quite a bit of life left in it.

If you are in need of examples of racism--real hardcore racism--I wouldn't be glad to provide some, but for your enlightenment I'd be willing to do so.

Wishing away racism doesn't make it so. It takes hard work, commitment to equality and bridging the gap between various racial groups to make it happen.

Life is lived rather badly when those who seriously want to face the issue of racism head first are derided as the ones that keep it alive. However, I prefer to open my eyes and keep my head up and deal with the realities of racism in 2003 than to close my eyes and bury my head in the sand and say it doesn't exist.

I agree with you for the most part, nighttimer, but there are some people who to such great lengths to avoid being racist that they come all the way back around to being racist again. Those are the type of people who need to stop worrying so much about racism.

Racism is something you can't ignore, but you also shouldn't make a bigger deal out of it than there already is. I guess what I'm saying is to strike a balance between being color-blind and culturally sensitive.

Agreed, Pheeler. You can't go around life being paranoid and blaming all your problems and failures on race. I know there are black folks who can blame everything that goes wrong on white folks.

It rained today? White folks were messing around in outer space.

Your car got repossessed today? White man wouldn't give me a job so I could pay the bill.

Got a cold and sniffles? White man probably sprayed something in the subway that just gives black people the flu.

Kid came home with all "F's" on his report card? White man's racist school system wants to keep black folks ignorant!

This can become very tiresome, but it's a easy excuse for some people to use it as their explanation for their failures and shortcomings in life. "Waaah--white people wont' give me a break!" I get it that this type of whiny excuse-making gets on the last good nerve of white people.

But it gets on my last good nerve when white people assert without anything to substantiate the claim that the playing field is level and there's no more racism and even if there is there's only a teeny tiny little group that feels that way and nobody pays them any attention and if you don't either they'll just go away and yadda-yadda-yadda...

You don't have to accept my feelings of the persistence of racism as being genuine, but don't dismiss it with a wave of your hand that it's all in my head, because it aint necessarily so.

A bit more tolerance and a lot less cynicism is much appreciated.

I agree. Is there racism in the world? Yes. Will it ever go away entirely? No. However, there are people who see racism hiding behind every tree and every time something goes wrong, no matter what it is, it's RACISM, I tell you... RACISM!

A lot of the things that are claimed racism simply aren't. It has nothing to do with skin color and it simply isn't helpful to be pointing fingers in the wrong direction. There has to come a time when everyone, regardless of skin color, stands on their own two feet and takes responsibility for getting where they want to be. If you are truly restricted by the color of your skin, that's one thing. To say that all bad things that ever happen to you are because of racism is patently ridiculous.

Im not racist but Im disgusted by the fact that black people can disrespect white people constantly without being thought of as being racist. Haley Barry(sp?), for example, can stand up on national television, during the ACADEMY AWARDS, and say, "This is for all the black people out there..". Now, I am white, and if I were to win an academy award and as apart of my reception speech and say, "... and this is for all the white people out there.." I would probably be shot, or in a more real sense, be thought of as being racist. Too me, that is not justice.

Also, there was an article a couple weeks back during hurricane Isabel that reported a black congress women from texas stating that "hurricanes dont and should have black names!" and deemed it to be racist. Now, who really cares what a hurricanes name is? And who really cares what nationality decent the name has? I think this is just ridicules.

The Civil War and the 1950s are over people... get over it.

I don't even know where to start with this...

(emphasis mine)
That's a fairly stereotypical beginning. Fairly transparent.


It actually disgusts you? Seems like you might be even more hung up on this issue than Barry. Of course, you've disproved your own statement. You think it's racist. In fact I've heard an awful lot of white dudes whining about this stuff, all over the media, and even on this forum. They think it's racist too.



Perhaps that would change if hardly any white people had ever gotten academy awards, and then you won one. You might indeed say something of the sort.



Can you post a link to this information?



Absolutely. Too true. I am in agreement with you that we need to focus on this. The first place would be groups like the CCC, the KKK, the idiots at Stormfront, and the retards from Aryan Nations.

Groups like that aren't taken seriously quark. Their message is labeled correctly as hate. Society shuns them. They have no political pull. They have no voice on TV, in news print, etc. They do have a right to exist and associate no matter how distasteful it is to you and me.

As I’ve stated on another thread, I believe those who profit from keeping racism alive are the bigger obstacle. I also believe the race card is played so much it's losing its value.

Bela, I wasn't trying to say those groups shouldn't be allowed to exist - just that when it comes to vitriolic racism, in spite of the increasingly tiresome pouting of a few white males, whites still got it all over blacks.

When someone says "I'm not a racist but..." it first makes me chuckle a bit, but really it is quite a sad thing, that people of any race can become so obsessed. Some people will cry foul at the top of their lungs about supposed disadvantages for whites, and on issues like poverty, will say, "well, no one said life was fair."

You can't really change others, but you can change yourself. You can't control others' actions, but you can control how you react.

Also, some of those groups, like the CCC, are less far from mainstream conservatism than you might think.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that there is still racism in the world. And I'm not being selective on what is important, nor do I turn a blind eye or wear rose colored glasses to the obvious. My point in my earlier posts are that people see the color of a persons skin before anything else. The one aesthetic thing that a person can't change about themselves. The one superficial thing that technically makes them different than another others on the planet but in all actuality doesn't mean anything other than the pigmentation of their skin is different. One slightly different dna variation. I'm just get very frustrated (being a midwesterner who's lived in the south for 15 years) to see racism so blatantly. I was raised by parents who would have slapped me in the mouth for saying the "N" word. I'm sorry, but I don't give into the whole black\white thing. You can call me what ever, but I don't live in Neverland. But I am color blind when it comes to how I treat people and judge them. I judge people on an INDIVIDUAL basis. I don't interact with racist people if I can help it, black or white. I'm sorry if I'm open minded in that respect, call it naive, but I assure you it's not.

I just felt I had to emphasize this



How did I disprove my own statement? I just vocalised on how I feel about her actions.



You cant really say that. Its not like there is a limitation on how many black people can win an academy award. Black people have the same, equal chance as white people do to win an academy award. Theres NOTHING holding black people back. Now, if there was, I would agree with what your saying.



http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33896

19YearsNcounting


Then answer a few questions for me. Why do black families have far fewer assets than white families? Why are blacks paid less in the same professions as white people? Why do fewer blacks own homes?

Are they just stupid? Are they inferior? Some people look at the positions someone like me holds about race in America, and they would call me an apologist for reverse racism. I am not excusing the actual racism of anyone, white or black. However, I am willing to hold the assumption that all humans are created equal in potential. Because I believe this, I have to examine why a disparity exists. If the reason blacks have less, make less, etc. is NOT due to their own failings or inferiority, then what is the cause? Is it in fact due to 400+ years of slavery and oppression? Are the effects of that still lingering? To those who say NO, there is no lingering disparity in our culture, then please give me a sound alternative to explain the economic disparities between blacks and whites.

Let me be more clear.

1. Fact: blacks make less money (even in the same professions), own fewer homes, pay higher loan interest rates, than whites. (whether viewed by median or average, this is true)

2. There must be a cause. What are our causal choices?

a: they are still being pushed down by whitey. (I don't believe this, not systemically)

b: they are still recovering from years of oppression. In essence they started the race way behind the starting line.

c: they are inferior, and incapable of achieving at the same level as whites.

3. So, what to choose? I have simplified these choices of course, but they cover most of the ground. Because I do not believe blacks are inferior, and I do not believe they are still under the yoke of apartheid, I end up thinking that they are in a sort of "economic recovery" period. Therefor, I view such things as affirmative action programs, and all the stuff some few complain about, to be merely ways in which our society can aid that recovery, can in fact help get everyone to that starting line.

Of course, I must say that though I have contributed to this thread a fair amount, I find the question posed to be ultimately pretty irrelevant. It's impossible to answer in a scientific way. In fact, I would say that the very posing of such a question misses the larger issue of working to end all the bigotry in our own hearts, regardless of whether certain actions or policies are "fair" or not.

Racism still exists in our society. I see it on a daily
basis, though it is more "masked" than it has been in previous times,
and more subtle...

I personally try not to judge others based on skin color. But, if
I was walking down a dark street, I'd be more worried about
encountering a black 20-year-old male than his white counterpart.
I don't know if that falls into the category of racism? I guess it
does - it's prejudging someone based on his skin color (and sex)...

I'm not black, so I cannot answer this question: When a black person
encounters a white, does he/she automatically assume that the white
person is a racist??

There seems to be racism on both sides, but it is more harsh
coming from the white side.

1. Fact: blacks make less money

True, however this is something that needs to be looked at closely. From www.jointcenter.com:



As you can see much of the difference in the income between black and white families can be atributed to the fact that more black families are run by single parents. You can claim that this too is a result of racism, but please if you advocate government programs to eliminate income disparities you need to focus on the balck family. There seems to be a lot of economic discrimination against single parent families, regardless of color. Or could it be single parent families are economically and socially inferior family units?

2. There must be a cause. What are our causal choices?

I agree the answer is most of the problems are a result of recovering from a period of oppression. Sadly this oppression has created an environment where the average IQ of blacks is substantially below whites. When the single parent factor and IQ's are factored out white incomes and black incomes are approximately equal.

3. So, what to choose? I have simplified these choices of course, but they cover most of the ground. Because I do not believe blacks are inferior, and I do not believe they are still under the yoke of apartheid, I end up thinking that they are in a sort of "economic recovery" period.

Incomes will remain unequal, more blacks will be imprisoned. The statistics on black crime will continue to be used to justify racism. Until the issues confronting the single parent family, regardless of race, are addressed. AA programs are akin to spitting on an oil well fire. Dysfunctional families are the major cause of crime and poverty. That is what should be addressed, not racism.

Hugo:


It's not that I really disagree with you here, Hugo, but how do we address this? I mean, as a society? And for the record, I am positive that marriage is only a tangential corrolary to functionality - in other words, functionality is more important than having two parents. Two functioning parents are ideal, of course, but one functional parent is far better than having two parents who are very disfunctional.

You say "confront the single parent family," but how, exactly? Pass laws against divorce? I say that the best way to produce functioning parents the next generation is to pay extra special attention to the generation growing up right now - help them to get better educational opportunities, better employment opportunities - they will be more likely to be functional producers of the the next generation. In that sense, AA programs may be far more effective than you seem to think.

Back to The Bell Curve again, Hugo? The supposed intellectual inferiority of blacks seems to be the tentpole upon which you prop up some very ugly and suspect notions.

Intelligence alone, without wisdom and empathy for suffering, is hollow.

--- John G. Stoessinger/Why Nations Go to War

"The average IQ of blacks is substantially below whites?"

Not if some of the unsubstantiated, fallacious. fatuous and pernicious ravings and droolings of some of the white posters on America's Debate is any indicator.

That statistic is pretty widely accepted. There are some differences in estimates, but few dispute an IQ gap. What is not accepted is the conclusions made in "The Bell Curve". The fact is blacks have larger families than whites, blacks have poorer pre-natal care than whites, blacks have more children born to teenage mothers than whites. When you consider all these factors, blacks would have to be genetically superior to have,on average, IQ's equal to whites.

We have a rather small sample size on America's Debate.

A summary of studies by scientists at Northwestern and Columbia Universities that rebutted "The Bell Curves" conclusions, but not it's statistics.

No Bells Curve Here

A bit from that link:

As in many other studies, the black children in the study had IQ scores a full 15 points lower than their white counterparts. Poverty alone,the researchers found, accounted for 52 percent of that difference, cutting it to 7 points. Controlling for the children's home environment reduced the difference by another 28 percent, to a statistically insignificant 3 points -- in essence, eliminating the gap altogether.

The study includes data from birth to age 5 on 800 black and white children who were born premature and with a low birth weight. Collected from eight health care sites around the country, it is the only data set that combines high-quality measurement of developmental outcomes (i.e., full-scale IQ tests) with longitudinal data on family economic status, neighborhood conditions, family structure and home environment. Because the study looks at very young children, the subjects' IQ measures cannot be attributed to such non-family influences as schooling or work

"The study strongly suggests that economic and learning environments of the home are the most powerful predictors of racial IQ differences in 5-year-olds," said Brooks-Gunn.
(end of quote)


Until a man can present facts without being labeled a racist, the root causes of black vs. white income disparities cannot be addressed. The IQ gap is a fact. Any government programs should be directed at eliminating this gap.

A bit on Ms. Brooks-Gunn

She received her B.A. from Connecticut College, an Ed.M. from Harvard University and a Ph.D. from the University of Pennsylvania. Author of over 300 published articles and 15 books, she has received the Vice President's National Performance Review Hammer Award, for her participation in the Federal Interagency Forum on Child and Family Statistics, National Institute for Child Health and Human Development Research Network (1998). She has been awarded the Nicholas Hobbs Award from the American Psychological Association's Division of Children, Youth, and Families, for her contribution to policy research for children (1997), and has also received the John B. Hill Award from the Society for Research on Adolescence for her life-time contribution to research on adolescence, (1996). In 1988, she received the William Goode Book Award from the American Sociological Association for her book Adolescent mothers in later life. She is editor of a new book series on youth and research and policy at the Harvard University Press.

Dr. Brooks-Gunn's specialty is policy-oriented research focusing on family and community influences upon the development of children, youth and families. Her research centers around designing and evaluating interventions aimed at enhancing the well-being of children living in poverty and associated conditions. She is conducting, with Mathematica Policy Research, the National Evaluation of the Early Head Start program, and with the Harvard School of Public Health, the middle childhood and adolescent follow-up of the Infant Health and Development Program. Both are randomized trials of early childhood and family support intervention programs. She is Co-Principal Investigator of the Child Supplement of the Panel Study of Income Dynamics and the Fragile Families and Child Well-Being Project, two national longitudinal studies of parents and their children. She is a Scientific Director of the Project on Human Development in Chicago Neighborhoods.

Her books on these topics include, Adolescent mothers in later life (1987), as well as several edited volumes including, Consequences of growing up poor, (1997); Escape from poverty: What makes a difference for children? (1995); and Neighborhood poverty: Context and consequences for children, Volume 1. Policy Implications in Studying Neighborhoods, Volume 2. (1997). (end of quote)


She does not sound like a political hack, or a racist to me. I would not be surprised if she was black. I would be surprised if she is not a liberal.The income gap between blacks and whites is not primarily due to racism against black adults, it is primarily due to the fact that black children have socioeconomic disadvantages. As long as we cannot debate the IQ gap without hearing crys of racism we cannot effectively address the root causes of poverty in the black community.

No, I am not a racist, nor is Ms. Brooks-Gunn. We both recognize facts.

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts---for support rather than illumination.

--- Andrew Lang

When is a fact not the truth? When "facts" are employed to bolster an point that is racist and white supremacist.

I could care less about the "facts" supplied by some obscure scientist. Not to rehash The Bell Curve again, but science has often been the crutch upon which racist theories are propped up on.

I have zero interest in engaging in a debate with anyone on this board at anytime who rests their argument upon the discredited junk science of eugenics.

However, dabbling in this noxious nonsense does resolve the question of, "Who's more racist?"

Whites who believe in the genetic inferiority of one race and the superiority of their own race are far more racist than blacks.

More's the pity.

And there I agree with you 100%. Of course the IQ gap is not evidence of genetic inferiority.

I think both parties are equally guilty. There is racism, started by whites long ago, and now more than ever we can see counter-racism.
An interesteing anecdote: In an Atlanta area drugstore, I have a close friend who works as a pharmacist. As you may know, the name of Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport was recently changed to honor the black mayor Maynard Jackson. Ultimately, the name was heifenated and includes both names. Nevertheless, a black man came from the bathroom and accused the pharmacist and all his co-workers of being racists. The man said that someone had written "Maynard Jackson International Bus Station" on the wall of the public bathroom in the store, and threatened to call the police if the manager didn't apologize and clean it off. I suppose that man didn't even stop to think that the employees would have had no way of knowing about the comment, and even if that were the case not all of the employees would have agreed.
The point here is, stereotypes and assumptions are a major fuel for racism, and i think assumptions like the one this man made illustrate how racism is a cycle not easily stopped.

And who knows? The tables might be turned if the questions were phrased differently.

Nobody really knows if people who are one color are more racist than people of another color. And really, the only attitudes over which we have any control are our own individual ones. That's where the problems start and where they have to be solved.

My question is this, are there really that many people that believe that black people cannot be just as intelligent as white people. The statistics that are produced are only statistics based upon a certain control group at a given time in history. I'm positive they did not interview every black person on the planet. So it's obvious to me that some data is missing. Charles Hamilton Houston was the first black person to enter Harvard Law School and is considered to have had one of the greatest legal minds of our time. Benjamin Banneker was a great astronomer and mathematician. No person in my family has scored low on any IQ test. At the college I attend I was also told that I had one of the highest scores in the school. (My college is predominately white) History has also proven to us, time and time again, a traditional education is not required to be a genius. Nor does it prove that by having one you'll be a genius. If anything, the statistics prove the value, we as a society has placed upon education. The scores do not tell me who is smarter. Only who at this time in history is more interested in a traditional education. In my state $12,000.00 is spent per inmate per year. Only $2000.00 is spent on each child for the school year.
My husband is white. I am black. We have a son together. We've experienced racism from both sides. So have both of my parents families. Since many of us are either products of interracial marriages or we are in one. There is no such thing as one race being more racist than another. There are racists in every culture/ethnic group. I've heard some black people say white people are no good devils. I've heard some white people say that all blacks are lazy. My husbands family hated the fact that he was with me and that we were having a child together. My family was happy. However, my family knew about discrimination from both sides, and we realize that just because one person is, doesn't mean everyone is. I don't look at his family and think any less of them. I just think that their views are not based upon logical thought. I therefore feel it is my duty and honor to show them love and teach them a different way of living. When my cousin went to school some black kids called him h**** and some white kids called him n*****. Unfortunately, there are still people in this world that judge people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character. You won't find the content of a person's character in an IQ test. Blanket statements are one of the characteristics of someone who feels victimized. As long as person perceives his/ herself as a victim, they disempower themselves to change their situation. We are all individuals. One thing I possess that no other person before me or after me will ever possess is my fingerprint. Which identifies me as one of a kind. I may have genetic similarities and cultural similarities with other people, but there is only one me.

Hey KRS-1 had a lyric about this. The song was "My Philosophy" I believe.

"We'll have 'em eating out of our hands forever."
President Johnson

The legacy of the Great Society programs is the creation of a permanent underclass and, more importantly, a perpetual voting block lorded over by black race-baiters and their fawning Democrat lackeys. Using the cry of racism as a whip, these masters of the ‘New Plantation’ strive to create and control successive generations of black voters. Blacks who erringly think for themselves and challenge this status-quo are labeled as “Uncle Tom’s”, “sell-outs” or (perhaps most tellingly) “acting white”. Individuality in the black collective is unacceptable.

Liberals that argue for the proliferation of the welfare state and race based preferences point to years of systemic racism and discrimination as a moral justification. The necessity for these programs is proven, they say, by the present day state of Black America. Surely the ‘vestiges of slavery’ are responsible for the family instability, high crime, welfare dependency and poor academic achievement that are epidemic.

But consider these historical facts… From 1890 to 1940, blacks had a marriage rate slightly higher than whites and a comparable rate of two-parent families. In 1940 illegitimacy among blacks was 19 percent. In 1960 illegitimacy was 22 percent. In a study conducted by Herbert G. Gutman ("The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom, 1750-1925") it was determined that , in Harlem between 1905 and 1925, only 3 percent of all families were headed by a woman under 30, and 85 percent of black children lived in two-parent families.

Why are these numbers important? A one-parent family is six times more likely to be poor than the two-parent family. 60% of children with unmarried mothers are likely to score in the lower half of their class and 25% are likely to have behavioral or learning problems. 70% of the young offenders in our criminal justice system today come from single-parent households.

What are the results of President Johnson’s ‘War on Poverty’? Today black illegitimacy is 70 percent. Only 36 percent of black children live in two-parent families. One of every three black males (20-29) is involved in the penal system (this is projected to be two of every three black males by 2020). 40 percent of black males are marginally illiterate. One of every 12 black males in Washington, D.C. is a victim of homicide.

Wouldn’t it stand to reason that if slavery and institutionalized racism are the roots of black disenfranchisement - that the negative societal reaction of blacks to those evils would have been more prominent in the generations immediately following slavery and during the era of Jim Crow? How can Liberals explain the past strength of black families in a time of lynching and segregation in juxtaposition to the current failures of black society? Yet Liberals would have us continue to believe that 39 years after the enacting of Civil Rights reforms and after $7 trillion dollars spent on the ‘Great Society’ programs that Black America is in worse shape NOW because of the ‘vestiges of slavery’. Welfare has sponsored and encouraged illegitimacy, immorality and the destruction of the black family.

Liberals are incapable of admitting the painful truth: the inability of the welfare state to effectively change society for the better. The failure of present day Black America has (in large) nothing to do with race or racism… and everything to do with the nature of government – and how the increasingly liberal face of government has undermined the family and the individual.

“Since the social victim has been oppressed by society, he comes to feel that his individual life will be improved more by changes in society than by his own initiative. Without realizing it, he makes society rather than himself the agent of change. The power he finds in his victimization may lead him to collective action against society, but it also encourages passivity within the sphere of his personal life…

“To have more college-educated minorities, we don't need to work at instilling the principle of intellectual excellence, or at raising the standards in inner-city schools, or at making minority neighborhoods safe for children. (In fact, we allow license and lowered standards to prevail in these areas.) And we don't need to engage our ``client population'' personally. A group preference in college admissions is a simple and impersonal intervention by which we can manufacture a wonderfully ``diverse campus'' even when black students average three hundred SAT points below whites and Asians, as has been the case at the University of California at Berkeley.”

Shelby Steele

“I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

Benjamin Franklin, in "The Encouragement of Idleness," 1766

“The remedy for poverty is not in the material resources of the rich, but in the moral resources of the poor. These, which are lulled and deadened by money-gifts, can be raised and strengthened only by personal influence, sympathy, charity. Money gifts save the poor man who gets them, but give longer life to pauperism in the country.”

Lord Acton