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Kanyeshnah
I was reading a Larry Elder book and he stated that "blacks are more racist than whites." I'd like to hear some opinion on this.
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Jaime
QUOTE(Kaneshnyah @ Jul 3 2003, 04:35 PM)
I was reading a Larry Elder book and he stated that "blacks are more racist than whites." I'd like to hear some opinion on this.

What book? How about a small excerpt or two? It's pretty hard to debate anything based on what you have given us so far.
Kanyeshnah
Did it again! I lost the book so I can't give any excerpts but I can tell you the name, "Ten Things You Can't Say In America". There might be a "The" in front of the ten I'm not sure.
Bill55AZ
I was raised in an all white area, graduated from an all white high school in east Texas, and I can honestly say that rarely did any of us have anything to say about blacks. I knew of only one racist school mate, and having met his father I could tell where he got it.
Then I joined the Navy. It is my belief that blacks can be their own worst enemy. Right away I saw 2 blacks harassing another because his name was LeBlanc (French for white), and many times I worked with black technicians who would tell me to not speak to them after hours when they were with their black friends, as it would be bad for them to be known as a black who can get along with whites.
Another, a college graduate and pilot, told me that many blacks are 'carniverous', and will verbally attack any of their brothers who try to get ahead. Yet another, a marine stationed in Cuba; his fiance found out he was going to church with a predominantly white group, so she dumped him. It appears to me that prior to the 60's, it was the whites who wanted segregation, not it is the blacks.
Something happened back then, and it wasn't a good thing.
Passion51
I think the hatred among blacks is much more prevalent than among whites. Since the whites have held the power for so long that's not surprising.

That hatred is hurting the blacks though. Again, not surprising since hatred usually is hurtful.
Jaime
QUOTE(Passion51 @ Jul 3 2003, 06:00 PM)
I think the hatred among blacks is much more prevalent than among whites.

You think? On what do you base this? Not picking - just wondering.
Passion51
QUOTE(Jaime @ Jul 3 2003, 05:37 PM)
QUOTE(Passion51 @ Jul 3 2003, 06:00 PM)
I think the hatred among blacks is much more prevalent than among whites.

You think? On what do you base this? Not picking - just wondering.

I live in a large urban city, in a very diverse neighborhood. I work in the public sector, both for and with the members of all cultural and ethnic groups.

My job calls for frank discussions about race. Very frank discussions. My social circle is fairly diverse also. At least culturally. Not as much economically.

Those factors form the background for my stated opinion.

I'm sure there are many areas where this doesn't hold true, but my guess is that the overall numbers would prove me right.
Rumblestrip
QUOTE(Bill55AZ @ Jul 3 2003, 09:08 PM)
I was raised in an all white area, graduated from an all white high school in east Texas, and I can honestly say that rarely did any of us have anything to say about blacks.  I knew of only one racist school mate, and having met his father I could tell where he got it.
Then I joined the Navy.  It is my belief that blacks can be their own worst enemy.  Right away I saw 2 blacks harassing another because his name was LeBlanc (French for white), and many times I worked with black technicians who would tell me to not speak to them after hours when they were with their black friends, as it would be bad for them to be known as a black who can get along with whites.
Another, a college graduate and pilot, told me that many blacks are 'carniverous', and will verbally attack any of their brothers who try to get ahead. Yet another, a marine stationed in Cuba; his fiance found out he was going to church with a predominantly white group, so she dumped him. 


The problem comes from the response to "racism." Why is it that so many people seem to have the attitude that only Whites can be racist when the same sentiments can be found in ALL races?


When it is sensed in Whites, the response is "Oh, look at those hateful racists! What is wrong with them? What awful people!"

But when it comes from blacks, the response is "Oh, they must be responding to decades of oppression. They can't help it!"
Jaime
QUOTE(Rumblestrip @ Jul 6 2003, 04:47 PM)
The problem comes from the response to "racism." Why is it that so many people seem to have the attitude that only Whites can be racist when the same sentiments can be found in ALL races?


When it is sensed in Whites, the response is "Oh, look at those hateful racists! What is wrong with them? What awful people!"

But when it comes from blacks, the response is "Oh, they must be responding to decades of oppression. They can't help it!"

Do you have an real life examples to support any of these claims? Or is this just your perception? Because if we're only talking perceptions, I would say there are just as many white folks complaining about reverse racism. Hey, it's just my opinion. Why bother with facts? rolleyes.gif
kdubdub
I don't feel that anyone else is "more racist" than the other but I will say that there are many African Americans, especially men, who are always on the racism defensive. This usually stems from the fact that many black men have had there own "racist experience." It could be as little as being followed around in a store to having someone through an N-bomb at them. These occurances are always stuck in someones mind so when a black man catches someone staring at them, constantly asking to give assitance in a store, or anything of that nature...the first thing they think is racism. Now, someone becomes racist as a defensive reaction to what they perceived as racism.

You also have to remember that many black people have parents and grandparents that lived during the "Jim Crowe" period of this country and have passed on the defensive attitude to their children. We are only a generation removed from this.

I am not saying this applies to every black person but there are many who feel this way and still see racism. Every city isn't like Atlanta or New York. So I wouldn't say "blacks are more racist than whites" but "many blacks feel racism still exists and it makes them more defensive than whites".
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Bikerdad
I'm going to venture to say that yes, blacks are more "racist" than whites. However, I have to clarify what I mean.

Blacks place more importance on race than whites. Being black is a more significant element in their life than being white is to whites. There is more color consciousness among blacks than whites. Black pride, the BET Awards where being black is a criteria, etc. I'm not saying that white don't have some of the same hangups, just that it isn't as widespread throughout the "white community" as it is the "black community."

Larry Elder (a black commentator), Walter Williams (also black), Thomas Sowell (black), Alan Keyes (black as night black), and a lot of other black conservatives, as well as many black "independents" have all observed this phenomena.

The proto-Marxist class/race/gender agitators will put the relative lack of white "race consciousness" down to white's being the majority and in power. Perhaps that's true, or perhaps its simply that the only time most whites think of their skin color is when they're color matching clothing or makeup, or lamenting the likelihood of getting another sunburn...

Grace and peace, BD
Rumblestrip
QUOTE(Jaime @ Jul 6 2003, 09:03 PM)

Do you have an real life examples to support any of these claims?  Or is this just your perception?  Because if we're only talking perceptions, I would say there are just as many white folks complaining about reverse racism.  Hey, it's just my opinion.  Why bother with facts?  rolleyes.gif


Sometimes you sound like you don't get out much. Take a look around you. Look outside your normal little circle of friends. It goes on every day.
quarkhead
Anytime we think "blacks" are one thing, or "whites" are another, we are doing a disservice to actually solving anything. The statement "blacks are more racist than whites" is such a blanket statement it's ridiculous. First, it's unprovable. Second, it can only serve to limit thinking and increase whatever racial divides people think exist.

How could anyone possibly quantify this? How do we even define "racist" in this context? Is a black person who supports affirmative action a racist? Is a white person who opposes affirmative action a racist? From certain extreme positions, there are people who would answer "yes" to those questions.

If I actually believe that black people are more racist than white people, how is that going to affect my next interaction with a black person? I doubt it will be for the better. If I actually believe whites are more racist than blacks, how will that belief jaundice my next meeting with a white person?

Black people, like white people (believe it or not), are individuals, and ought to be dealt with on an individual basis. Statements like the topic header here are rather unconstructive, rather like the whole idea of "black leaders." Why is Rev. Jackson a "black" leader? Did all the blacks get together in some secret "black cabal" and hold a secret election to make certain black people their leaders? If they did, they've kept it secret fairly well.

There are some black people who are more racist than most white people. There are some white people who are more racist than most black people. That's about all we can actually say on this subject - anything more is not merely unconstructive, it is actually... racist.

Rumblestrip, your implied insult to Jaime is way off the mark. Have you met every black person, and every white person in America, and asked them enough questions to know the answer? If so, present some data. If not, then Jaime has every right to ask you to back up your opinion. If in my life I have never met a racist black person, it would still be stupid for me to extrapolate from my experience that there are no racist black people.
Jaime
QUOTE(Rumblestrip @ Jul 11 2003, 01:28 AM)
Sometimes you sound like you don't get out much. Take a look around you. Look outside your normal little circle of friends. It goes on every day.

I should be annoyed at a personal jab like that. However, I don't think I need to, your answer itself speaks volumes.

I was only trying to point out how anecdotal stories don't always add much to a debate. Want to see? Read on.

I live in a city that is more or less 50% black/50% white; my neighborhood very much mirroring those numbers. Would you believe me if I told you I absolutely love it here? That I actually chose to live in this neighborhood? Probably not, your mind seems made up and I doubt you would accept my "evidence" as proof as I don't accept yours.

flowers.gif
Bikerdad
[quote]Anytime we think "blacks" are one thing, or "whites" are another, we are doing a disservice to actually solving anything.[/quote] Wrong. Your's is such a blanket statement that if accepted, it would do a disservice to everybody and actually prevent solving things.

Here are two irrefutable scientific facts: black people are far more susceptible to sickle cell anemia than white people, and white people are more susceptible to skin cancer than black. If we take your blanket statement at face value, then it would be rational to put 70% of the resources dedicated to fighting sickle cell anemia into studies on whites... Seems pretty dumb, doesn't it?

[quote]The statement "blacks are more racist than whites" is such a blanket statement it's ridiculous. First, it's unprovable.[/quote]

Its not unprovable (although I will grant that I haven't proved it), it is, however, a generalization, and must be understood as such. If you are railing against applying the generalization to every specific case, then I'm with you. If you are declaring that generalizations shouldn't be used at all, then you're living in a hyperrational fantasy land of omniscients. If you object to this generalization, then you'll have to do better than you've done so far, because the original question is framed as a binary. Its either a yes or no. Perhaps a more useful and less inflammatory question would be along the lines of "how widespread is racism within the black community", since the question itself leaves the comparative aspect alone. (Although I doubt if the folks ANSWERING the question would leave the comparison alone...)

[quote]Second, it can only serve to limit thinking and increase whatever racial divides people think exist.[/quote] Yes, that's a potential risk, but it is most emphatically not the only potential result. It can also serve to expand thinking and decrease racial divides. If the generalization is true (as a generalization), and that is counter to the prevailing conception among blacks, then they have an opportunity to change their ways. The truth will set one free.... There is a fairly widespread meme among "leftist" thought that the "oppressed" cannot engage in the erroneous behaviors that characterize the oppressors. Thus, radical feminists hold that women can't be sexist, hardcore marxists hold that workers can't be greedy. Likewise, there is a strain of thought that embraces the notion that blacks can't be racist. This question challenges (rather clumsily I might add) that notion.

[quote]How could anyone possibly quantify this?[/quote] That's what sociologists and anthropoligists live for...

[quote]How do we even define "racist" in this context?[/quote] I've already offered my definition of it, a definition that is not as negatively loaded as the more general understanding. "Race consciousness"

[quote]Is a black person who supports affirmative action a racist?[/quote] Yes. So is a white person who supports AA, an Asian, an Arab, an Indian (either the subcontinental or the new world variety), or anybody else who supports AA. Affirmative Action makes race a consideration, it is therefore, by definition, "racist."

[quote]Is a white person who opposes affirmative action a racist?[/quote] Insufficient information to reach a conclusion. The opposition to Affirmative Action can be based on numerous reasons. Racism, in the sense of not wanting to see OTHER RACES benefit, is one of those reasons, but so is a desire to judge people solely on the basis of their character and accomplishments, without regard to race.

[quote]If I actually believe that black people are more racist than white people, how is that going to affect my next interaction with a black person?[/quote] I don't know, that's up to you. Do you give individuals the benefit of the doubt, or do you require them to prove their innocence?

[quote]I doubt it will be for the better. If I actually believe whites are more racist than blacks, how will that belief jaundice my next meeting with a white person?[/quote] I guess you answered my prior question. sad.gif

[quote]Black people, like white people (believe it or not), are individuals, and ought to be dealt with on an individual basis. [/quote] Really! w00t.gif Wow, what a revelation! rolleyes.gif

[quote]If in my life I have never met a racist black person, it would still be stupid for me to extrapolate from my experience that there are no racist black people.[/quote] Depends on your "sample" size. If you'd only met one black person, then you'd be correct. If, however, you'd met 1,000 blacks and not one was racist, then it would be stupid for you to conclude that there ARE racist blacks. Once you met a racist black, THEN it would be stupid for you to conclude that there aren't any. There is a distinction between rational logic and pragmatic intelligence. You know and I know that if you went your entire life without meeting a racist black, and on your deathbed in the hospital you did meet one who was worse than Farrakan, you would be SURPRISED. Why? Because you would have concluded, based upon your experience, that there weren't any. Stupid conclusion? No, rational, based on available evidence. To identify as stupid any conclusion that is not made based on the entire universe of known and unknown evidence is, well, arrogant.

You may, if you want in this hypothetical scenario, qualify your conclusions to protect yourself from "stupidity" with this "thus far, I have encountered no evidence that there are racist black people." In the hypothetical world, you can say it often enough for everybody else to conclude that you ARE stupid, working so hard to cover your keester. Or you can do what most of us do in the real world, base our conclusions on what we've seen, heard, experienced, and recognize that there's still more data coming in that may alter our conclusions.

With regards to the original question itself, with "racism" understood solely as a negative, then I'll say that my personal experiences do not support a conclusion either way. Within popular culture, self-represented blacks appear to be more racist than whites, but whether the attitudes projected from the stage are representative of their true behavior is unknown. Black comedians may be overplaying the racist schtick, while whites are self-censoring, both simply as an act.

Grace and peace.
Hugo
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 11 2003, 01:02 PM)
Likewise, there is a strain of thought that embraces the notion that blacks can't be racist.  This question challenges (rather clumsily I might add) that notion.

[
QUOTE
Is a black person who supports affirmative action a racist?
Yes. So is a white person who supports AA, an Asian, an Arab, an Indian (either the subcontinental or the new world variety), or anybody else who supports AA. Affirmative Action makes race a consideration, it is therefore, by definition, "racist."


There is a strain of thought that teaches that racism can not exist without power. I was exposed to this strain of thought in an African-American literature class. In discussions on this strain of thought I would say about 10% of the blacks considered this a true thesis. The fact that this strain of thought exists at all among people with strong academic credentials is somewhat disturbing. It can be used to whitewash racism.

A black persons positive stand on affirmative action is no proof of racism, an individual can favor present discrimination to offset past discrimination and not be a racist. You can discriminate, without being a racist. In the battle for economic gain, groups may form coalitions to benefit themselves, to fight for discriminatory advantages, without being racist.
Mrs. Pigpen
I have a friend who explained to me the confusion his three year old son had when he was told he was black. 'No, I'm not black...I'm more brown. That's black!" he said, pointing to a black crayon. His dad said, 'no...You're black'.
I think therein lies the difference. I have never had to explain to my son that he is white, because it will never be an issue. When he starts kindergarten, he will become familiar with different ethnicities within the classroom, and the current term for each ethnicity. He has friends who are black now, and doesn't know there's a perceived difference in people. Black skin, to him, is the same as a tan or hair color or eye color.

A person who is black has to inform their children at a young age to protect them. That's just a fact. Race is an issue in their lives whether they want it to be or not.
Bikerdad
QUOTE(Hugo @ Jul 11 2003, 07:27 PM)
A black persons positive stand on affirmative action is no proof of racism, an individual can favor present discrimination to offset past discrimination and not be a racist. You can discriminate, without being a racist. In the battle for economic gain, groups may form coalitions to benefit themselves, to fight for discriminatory advantages, without being racist.

I may be wrong here, but methinks that you are attempting to distinguish between "motivational" racism, i.e. acting with malevolent intent based on race, and "consequential" racism, acting in such a fashion that the consequences are shaped by race.

If so, then I dispute your assessment. Regardless of the motivation for affirmative action, it is a racist undertaking. It may be benevolent in intent (of course, those who are bumped to make room for affirmative action beneficiaries will disagree), but the criteria remains "race." That makes it "racist." Its a simple logical construction. If A, then B. A beneficiary of affirmative action does not have to demonstrate that he (or she) has ever suffered as a result of racism, it is assumed that he has, based on his race.

That affirmative action is racist can be demonstrated quite easily with this hypothetical: if an African-American, born in the US but raised his entire life in Africa, were to come to the US, he would get the full benefit of affirmative action. The reverse is also true, a Norwegian-American raised in Norway would be penalized. The height of absurdity would be when our two hypothetical prodigals returned home and were competing for the same prize under affirmative action. Thor would be penalized simply because he's white, in order to redress wrongs that he has NEVER been a party to committing, and Jamal would be advantaged simply because he's black in order to redress wrongs of which he has NEVER been a victim.

That, especially given that we are dealing with institutionalized (read bureaucratic) processes here, is real, pure racism. It may not be as malevolent as burning crosses and Jim Crow, but it is racism.

If the ends justifies the means, then affirmative action may be "good". The jury is out, since both the law of unintended consequences as well as the realities of the return on investment have yet to be fully manifest. If the end does not turn out as intended, then clearly AA would be "bad". Unfortunately for the proponents of Affirmative Action, diversity, and that whole ball of wax, it doesn't look like things are turning out as well as they'd claimed. If, on the other hand, one believes that two wrongs do not make a right, then affirmative action is unconscionable.

When you fight for discriminatory advantages, and the basis that you will use to discriminate is race, then you're being racist. Turn it around. When whites argue for advantages solely because they are white, there's no doubt in anybody's mind that they're being racist. Why is it so hard to understand that the reverse is true?

Yo, have a fine weekend, I'm outta here.

Grace and peace, BD
Paladin Elspeth
It seems like more critical comments come from African-Americans about Euro-Americans on television, especially news reports and comedy routines. Based on this alone, it would seem like blacks are more racist than whites.

But the trouble is, we can't see into each other's minds. While the current political climate seems to favor racially derogatory expression by one group of people over that of another, actual racism cannot be quantified that way.

Having been chastened for perceived racist remarks by being fired, Jimmy the Greek might identify with this quotation:
"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him."
--John, Viscount Morley of Blackburn
Hugo
rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1)The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2)Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Under the second definition of racism BikerDad is right. I was arguing based on the first definition.
nighttimer
dry.gif Blacks are more racist that white?

This question is so silly that I can hardly believe that it's seriously considered.

What is the black equivalent to the Ku Klux Klan? What is the black equivalent to the Tuskegee syphilis experiment? What is the black equivalent to the the Tulsa race riots? Who is the black version of James Earl Ray or J. Edgar Hoover? Is there a black version of Jim Crow used against whites? How many whites have been lynched by black mobs?

What is the black equivalent to slavery?

How many times have you as a white person been fired by a black person? How many times were you hired by a black person? How many times has a black person cheated you in a investment or sold you a car that was a lemon or was hired to perform a service and did it half-way or not at all? Who was the last black banker that turned you down for a loan or the black real estate agent that wouldn't sell you a house in the neighborhood you wanted to live in?

When was the last time a black President sent your son off to war for trivial reasons? How many black governors or state legislators have raised your taxes? When was the last time the black Supreme Court ruled against your interests?

When was the last time a black person beat you out of anything besides the better parking space in the shopping mall parking lot?

There seems to be an assumption that everything has evened up and blacks are just as proficient at racism as whites. An assumption is all that is. Nothing more.
quarkhead
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 11 2003, 12:02 PM)
QUOTE
Anytime we think "blacks" are one thing, or "whites" are another, we are doing a disservice to actually solving anything.
Wrong. Your's is such a blanket statement that if accepted, it would do a disservice to everybody and actually prevent solving things.

Here are two irrefutable scientific facts: black people are far more susceptible to sickle cell anemia than white people, and white people are more susceptible to skin cancer than black. If we take your blanket statement at face value, then it would be rational to put 70% of the resources dedicated to fighting sickle cell anemia into studies on whites... Seems pretty dumb, doesn't it?

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Perhaps I should have made this statement more conditional, I guess I figured that from the tone of my entire post, it was fairly obvious that I was referring to the types of blanket statements like the one that frames this topic's question. Statements of belief, intent, or behaviour. It does not serve our society for the better to hold generalizations as core beliefs - "black people are more racist than white people," "white people are more uptight than black people," and so on. To attempt to answer this question one way or the other only speaks to the part of us which divides and categorizes, rather than helping rid us of preconceived notions about one another based on flimsy notions.

QUOTE
There is a fairly widespread meme among "leftist" thought that the "oppressed" cannot engage in the erroneous behaviors that characterize the oppressors. Thus, radical feminists hold that women can't be sexist, hardcore marxists hold that workers can't be greedy. Likewise, there is a strain of thought that embraces the notion that blacks can't be racist. This question challenges (rather clumsily I might add) that notion.


How "widespread" would that be? I guess I should be thankful I'm not a "leftist." The way you use the term, it sure sounds a lot like a synonym for "stupid people." Is there perhaps a widespread meme among "rightwing" thought that "leftists" are "idiots?" I don't know - because I'd rather treat each person I meet as an individual. Such thoughts as your "meme" statement are necessarily limiting. Sorry, I guess you'll have to do better. tongue.gif smile.gif

I'm furthermore sorry you spent so much time attempting to answer my rhetorical questions. My point was that each of us might answer these questions differently.

Bikerdad, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post or thought I was being arrogant. I was attempting to point out that those who go through their lives carrying the weight of a preconceived notion like "blacks are more racist than whites" are playing into racial stereotypes, and are going to have a more difficult time taking people as simply people, and not representative of a complete set of stereotyped images and notions. I must have worded it very badly, as I was attempting a communion rather than a division. biggrin.gif
Digital Patriot
Nighttimer:

Not necessarily in AD, but in the general public: I would loose more credibility and would be labeled a racist, if I called you a nigger publically, than if you called me poor white trash. Regardless of the context we used those words in.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are perfect examples of highly racist black leaders.

Check out Black and White standup comedians. I think the Black ones are more freely racist than white ones. If a white guy got up on stage and started talking about stupid black people, he'd be labeled a racist, and no one would go to his shows. But when black people get up on stage and make fun of white people, everyone laughs.

I admit I don't know much about them, but aren't the Black Panthers up there with the KKK?

Ever heard of the Crown Heights Riots? Fueled by Mr. Sharpton, I think that could be considered a lynch mod. Though the means were different, then end was the same.

Most of your examples have nothing to do with race. Race has nothing to do with a Black or White President sending troops into battle. Race has nothing to do with raising taxes.

For the record, I happen to report directly to a black guy at work. So he's further along the career path than I. And as well he should be, he's a smart dude. So yeah, a black guy hired me. tongue.gif

I don't think more black OR white people are racist. But I DO believe black people can speak more openly about it, without fear of retaliation or being slapped with a negative stereotype.

It's an assumption that white people are more racist than black people. But that's all it is...an assumption.

--cheers
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jul 11 2003, 11:48 PM)
What is the black equivalent to slavery?  

How many times were you hired by a black person?  


Slavery. There was slavery in Africa at the same time as we had it in America. That's where Americans bought theirs. Actually, slavery exists in parts of Africa to this very day.

I was hired by a black man for my last job (about 6 years ago). He was the school principal.
Rumblestrip
QUOTE(Jaime @ Jul 11 2003, 12:13 PM)

I was only trying to point out how anecdotal stories don't always add much to a debate.  Want to see? Read on.

I live in a city that is more or less 50% black/50% white; my neighborhood very much mirroring those numbers.  Would you believe me if I told you I absolutely love it here?  That I actually chose to live in this neighborhood?  Probably not, your mind seems made up and I doubt you would accept my "evidence" as proof as I don't accept yours.


Maybe I'm, an oddball here, but I always thought that anecdotal evidence - that is, one's own life experience, is how one forms opinions. You can do all the research you want and put together a report on what "should" be true, but if those facts differ from what you see for yourself in day to day life, which set of facts are you going to give more credit to? The ones that you read in a book somewhere or the ones that you saw with your own eyes?
Bikerdad
[quote=nighttimer,Jul 12 2003, 06:48 AM]dry.gif  Blacks are more racist that white?[/quote]
[quote]This question is so silly that I can hardly believe that it's seriously considered.[/quote] Dismissing the question as silly isn't going to make it go away. Understanding how it is framed, and the context of the question, will help you understand it better.

[quote]What is the black equivalent to the Ku Klux Klan?  [/quote] In the spirit of ignoring the context of the original question, I'll offer the following: Zanu PF, the Nation of Islam, the Black Panthers, and/or the NAACP, depending on the context you choose and the relationship between methods and goals.

[quote]What is the black equivalent to the Tuskegee syphilis experiment?  [/quote] Context, Nightimer. The question is framed as present tense, not past tense. What happened 25, 50, 75, 150 years ago isn't the question, unless one assumes that white racism is inherent and unchangeable. Is that your assumption?

[quote] What is the black equivalent to the the Tulsa race riots?[/quote] Uhh, the Cleveland race riots this past year, the riots in South Central, Reginald Denney (sp??), etc... The most important consideration is that the Tulsa riots occured 80 years ago, what's the situation been for the last 8 years?

[quote]Who is the black version of James Earl Ray or J. Edgar Hoover? [/quote] Mayor Willie Brown. Robert Mugabe. Idi Amin.

[quote]Is there a black version of Jim Crow used against whites? [/quote] Yes. Its called "post colonial land reform", all the rage in Zimbabwe.

[quote]How many whites have been lynched by black mobs?[/quote] Reginald Denney for one. Hundreds, if not thousands in Africa in the last 2 decades. How many blacks have been lynched by white mobs in the last 2 decades?

[quote]What is the black equivalent to slavery?  [/quote] Slavery. Not a single "western", i.e. "white" nation today practices slavery. Can you say the same for black nations? If you want to go back into the American past, you have the inconvenient fact that the blacks brought to America as slaves were captured and sold to the white slavers by other blacks, and some were even bought by blacks when they reached our shores. But since the question is present tense, what purpose does it serve to indict whites today for events that occurred before ANYBODY alive today was born?

[quote]How many times have you as a white person been fired by a black person? [/quote] None. I have verbally and physically abused by black supervisors though, does that count? FWIW, I've never FIRED a black person either, so its kind of a wash.

[quote]How many times were you hired by a black person?[/quote] None. Never hired one either, but that might be becuase I've never hired anybody.

[quote]How many times has a black person cheated you in a investment or sold you a car that was a lemon or was hired to perform a service and did it half-way or not at all?[/quote] rolleyes.gif

[quote]Who was the last black banker that turned you down for a loan[/quote] hmmmm, maybe the last banker that turned me down for a loan. Of course, he(she) could have been a martian for all I know, because I never met him, and he had no idea who I was.... gee, maybe my crappy credit had more to do with it than anything else... whistling.gif Of course, I could just assume that I was turned down because of my color/race/sex/ethnicity/religion/eyecolor/sexual preference/....

[quote]How many black governors or state legislators have raised your taxes?  [/quote] Last month.

[quote]When was the last time the black Supreme Court ruled against your interests?[/quote] Thursday.

[quote]When was the last time a black person beat you out of anything besides the better parking space in the shopping mall parking lot?[/quote] When the personnel requirements of the short-term consulting contract I'm working on now shrink, and they keep the other guy (he's black), then I'll be able to give you an exact date.

[quote]There seems to be an assumption that everything has evened up and blacks are just as proficient at racism as whites.[/quote]

Nothing will ever 'even up', because people aren't "even." "Even" is a childish standard, because its unrealistic. The incredibly complex interractions of culture, genetics, economics, class and family environment all mean that we cannot achieve "racial parity", and any attempt to do so is doomed to failure. The best we can do is get out of the way and remove the racial filters period. Or, as Dr. King said, judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

As for blacks being just as "proficient" at racism as whites, we aren't talking about "proficiency", we're talking about behavior. Proficiency is a measure of how effective someone is, not attitude or frequency. Accordingly, I'm going to stand by my generalization that currently American blacks are just as, if not more so, racist than American whites. Why? Because they are just as human as whites, which means that blacks have the same potential for weal or woe. They may not have had as much opportunity in America 50 years ago, but they have plenty of opportunity for racism today, and most who engage in it today are getting a free pass.

Racism is not a function of power, it is an ATTITUDE. The disgraced Nazi mumbling to himself in some forgotten prison cell is no less anti-Semitic because he no longer has the controls of the ovens under his fingertips, he's simply less DANGEROUS. The attitude remains...
aquapub
In general, I think so called, "civil rights" leaders perpetuate it, but yes, with the slavery reparations lawsuit, the demanding of lower standards for blacks(at the expense of the 1964 civil rights amendment, the riots here in Cincinnati, and the idea of dressing like a thug and complaining about not getting a cab, yes, I think blacks are infested with paranoid bigotry.
nighttimer
Sigh.

Bikerdad, I find it interesting that throughout your post you dismiss historical acts of white racism as irrelevant but when it serves your purpose you aren't the least bit reluctant to dredge up the past.

For example: What happened 25, 50, 75, 150 years ago isn't the question, unless one assumes that white racism is inherent and unchangeable. Is that your assumption?

We will get back to my assumption. Let's focus on your answer to my question, "Who is the black version of James Earl Ray or J. Edgar Hoover." Your reply? Mayor Willie Brown. Robert Mugabe. Idi Amin.

To the best of my knowledge Mayor Willie Brown has never been accused of assassinating a civil rights leader nor has he been accused of being a closeted homosexual who used the power of his office to gather personal information on thousands of American ciitizens, denied the existence of organized crime, or approved the notorious COINTELPRO program.

Robert Mugabe is a tinhorn tyrant with no standing or following of any measure in America. Trying to link him to Black Americans is like blaming White Americans for Ian Smith, Josef Stalin, Ted Bundy and Augusto Pinochet.

Idi Amin was another monstrous and murderous despot. Oh, and he was deposed in 1979. That was 24 years ago. Gee, just made it under the wire of your cut-off of "25, 50, 75, 150 years ago" before passing into irrelevance.

By the way, what riots in Cleveland are you talking about? When the Cavaliers drafted LeBron James in the NBA Draft last month? unsure.gif

I asked how many whites have been lynched by black mobs. You replied, Reginald Denney for one. Hundreds, if not thousands in Africa in the last 2 decades. How many blacks have been lynched by white mobs in the last 2 decades?

Reginald Denney was the victim of a violent street crime. He was attacked by black people. He was also rescued and protected by other black people. Unlike many black victims of lynching, Mr. Denney survived.
As to your, "hundreds, if not thousands" of whites lynched by blacks in Africa, that's an interesting assertion. Got any facts to back it up?

Regarding how many blacks have been lynched by white mobs in the last two decades, I don't know why I should play by the arbitrary cut-off of 20 years, but I can start with the chaining, dragging and decapitation of James Byrd in Jasper, Texas and go from there. Now, if you really want me to take you there, I can promise you I can give you examples of lyncing of blacks by whites that would crash this site's server.

"What is the black equivalent to the Ku Klux Klan?," I asked. I'll offer the following: Zanu PF, the Nation of Islam, the Black Panthers, and/or the NAACP, depending on the context you choose and the relationship between methods and goals. was the reply you gave.

I don't know enough about the Zimbabwe African Nation Union Patriotic Front (ZANU PF) to comment intelligently but you didn't help matters by not providing any examples of their black supremacist and racist attitudes against whites. Well, maybe later...

Will you please provide all of the gentle readers of this forum some examples of how The Black Panthers, Nation of Islam and/or the NAACP have committed acts of murder, assault, arson, intimidation and harassment in a manner similar to that of the Ku Klux Klan? Please provide me with examples of black hate groups that are dedicated to the eradication of the white race. THAT is the context and the relationship between methods and goals that I choose.

Finally, a few short answers to a few offhand remarks on your part:

How many black governors or state legislators have raised your taxes? Last month.

When was the last time the black Supreme Court ruled against your interests? Thursday.


One: There are no black governors nor any state legislative bodies in the U.S. that are predominantly black.

Two: There is only one black Justice on the Supreme Court. And not much of a black man at that.

Oops. Now you've got me being snide and smarmy too. dry.gif
Digital Patriot
Crown Heights riots anyone?

http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/01/crown.heights/

QUOTE
By the way, what riots in Cleveland are you talking about? When the Cavaliers drafted LeBron James in the NBA Draft last month?


har har

perhaps he meant the cincinnati riots?

http://www.cincinnati.com/unrest/

specifically:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/04/1...nore_pleas.html

Black people are no less and no more racist than white people. The mere thought is ludicrous. Black on white violence happens all the time, it's just not publized. The press wouldn't want to be called racist now would they? biggrin.gif

QUOTE
There is only one black Justice on the Supreme Court. And not much of a black man at that.


Why? Because he's conservative? pfffft. I think he's pretty successfull actually. He should be praised for his efforts and his success and used as an example of what black people can accomplish. Instead, he's insulted. That's truely sad, and I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll be proud of him enough for the both of us wink.gif

--cheers
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
There is only one black Justice on the Supreme Court. And not much of a black man at that


I think that statement pretty much sums up the answer to the debate question.
moif
QUOTE
Are black people more racist than whites?


I don't think so. I believe that if you look at the people in Africa, then you will find they are just as diverse and 'multivarious' as Europeans and Asians.

Essentially, I think all people are the same in this regard, and any differences are cultural differences. You might for example, do a survey that indicates American black people are more racist that South African black people, but less racist than Brazillian black people (or it might be the other way round).

But you might also find that American White people are more racist than Spanish white people, but less so than Russian white people.... (or again, it might be the other way round).

For my part, I have never met a black man who made a racial comment... but then we don't have all that many black people in Denmark.
nighttimer
QUOTE(Digital Patriot @ Jul 15 2003, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE
There is only one black Justice on the Supreme Court. And not much of a black man at that.


Why? Because he's conservative? pfffft. I think he's pretty successfull actually. He should be praised for his efforts and his success and used as an example of what black people can accomplish. Instead, he's insulted. That's truely sad, and I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll be proud of him enough for the both of us wink.gif

QUOTE


No. Not because Uncle Thomas is a conservative. It's because he's an unprincipled conservative whose sole ideological motivation is to appease and flatter white conservatives as he bows and scrapes and curries their favor.

It doesn't surprise me that conservatives think Uncle Clarence Thomas is their idea of a swell, okay, kinda of black guy (just as long as he doesn't marry your sister).

Why is it that it is the most docile, meek, deferential, head-bowed, "I pulled my self up by the bootstraps" black men that conservatives like? Why is it when a black man parrots the words of conservative white men he becomes acceptable?

Why should Uncle Thomas be "used as an example of what black people can accomplish" when what he accomplished was through the very affirmative action programs he personally benefited from and now seeks to deny others like himself? What kind of example of black accomplishment is Thomas but a bad one?

Why am I asking questions I already know the answer to? dry.gif
Amlord
This topic is not about Clarence Thomas. Let's get back to debating...
QUOTE
I was reading a Larry Elder book and he stated that "blacks are more racist than whites." I'd like to hear some opinion on this.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE
It's because he's an unprincipled conservative whose sole ideological motivation is to appease and flatter white conservatives as he bows and scrapes and curries their favor.

That is about the most blatantly racist comment I've read on here yet. You are claiming conservatism = racism by insinuating conservativism is a "whites only" club.
Digital Patriot
Good call Amlord. Thanks for setting that up.

QUOTE
It doesn't surprise me that conservatives think Uncle Clarence Thomas is their idea of a swell, okay, kinda of black guy  (just as long as he doesn't marry your sister).


Lastly, let's watch the blanket statements shall we? Let's continue this discussion on the other thread.
nighttimer
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Jul 15 2003, 04:35 PM)
You are claiming conservatism = racism by insinuating conservativism is a "whites only" club.

QUOTE


That's your interpretation, D.R. Mine is not that conservatism equals racism. I never said any such thing, nor would I. Being a conservative doesn't make someone a racist any more than being a liberal means you can't be a racist.

My point that you and others have missed in your zeal to rush to Thomas's defense, is that there are many black conservatives whom have reached this philosophy through study, observation, personal experience and a studied preference for the tenets of conservatism.

There is a long and established history of prominent black conservatives from Booker T. Washington, Zora Neale Hurston, Louis Armstrong, Edmund Brooke, and ad infinitum. These and many contemporary black conservatives arrived at this school of thought through an honest political genesis.

But then there are the opportunitists whom cynically and with calculation exploit their race to appease and flatter the predominant white conservative culture. They see that the territory on the Political Left is crowded, so they opt for the considerably less crowded Political Right as to where they will hitch their star.

Clarence Thomas is one of those opportunists. This isn't about racism. That was your word. Personally, I'm a bit more judicious in applying that term less it become devalued and disbelieved like the boy that cried wolf once too often.

cool.gif
bayside
I don't really know any blacks who are racist; basically most of the blacks that I know are upper middle class and attempting to make it to the top. Upwardly mobile blacks need whites to get to the top. It is the white man, who has the power and control. Whites absolutely gain nothing from blacks. Minorities are not in power. How many whites, want to work for black CEO's.

First issue with this threads and question. You can't generalize all blacks or whites into a common group. All blacks and all whites are not the same. Blacks in Atlanta are different than those in California and different from those in New York and different than those in South Africa than those in Egypt.

Are we talking about black descent or mixed blacks? Are we talking about Poor ghetto blacks or Upper West side New Yorker blacks? I hope you see my point!

I think ignorant, poor and simple-minded people come in all shades. Whites in the Deep South may be more racist than those in North. Whites that live in Harlem may be less than those Whites that live in Great Neck, Long Island. White racism toward blacks has been researched and shown many times on TV. 20/20 did an excellent special about racism in housing towards blacks, along with employment. They had two college grads apply for the same job-- One white and one Black. The Blacks was never allowed to interview for the job. They also did this for housing. You can guess the results. They even had discrimination when buying. Blacks were charged more than whites for car purchases. Serious price markup.
http://more.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020...on_feature.html

Do you know that it is rare to see a black descent male waiter in Manhattan or even in the five boroughs except for Harlem? I am sure this is so in other states. They will hire mixed blacks, which look like Derek Jeter, but not those that look like eddy Murphy.

Take a look at the mall and most of the stores and try to find a black male working in a major store, besides doing stock. Black males and Fat people are discriminated, purely by looks. I have never in my life in New York have been served by a black male waiter. I know many in college, who apply for positions, but never, got those jobs. I also never saw a black bartender in NYC clubs, lounges or bars. Does this mean that the owners are racist? No, not really, but there are less opportunities for blacks in general, even those with degrees. Yes, some whites believe that they lost jobs to blacks because of a quota. This may be so, but it is no way in comparison to all the jobs, housing, opportunities that comes with being white. Blacks must assimilate and remove all of their blackness to fit in to the upper society. They were robbed of their land, culture and now identity and whites wonder why they have an attitude. They are without a country or within a country that they are made to feel as if they don't belong. This great research project called a class divided gives a better understanding of how blacks feel.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...d/etc/view.html

Blacks worry about living in the south or moving to a low crime area on the upscale because of hate groups, such as the KKK, the new order, neonazi, etc. These organizations are real. Go to this website and feel the hate. http://www.stormfront.org/ This is one of the many more racist groups designed to keep blacks in their place. So, even if blacks are more racist--which I doubt, blacks are effected more by racism from whites than whites are from blacks. Being that most middle to upper middle class what to get out of the caste into upper class, so they can't be racist, but instead must conform. Blacks and their hate against whites don't really affect whites too much. Blacks don't have the power, the money or the control to make a true dent in the white world. Whites own media, property, Employment, education, etc. Blacks lead only in sports and entertainment and with the system we have in the world against blacks it is almost impossible to escape the caste.
Bikerdad
[quote]Sigh. 

Bikerdad, I find it interesting that throughout your post you dismiss historical acts of white racism as irrelevant but when it serves your purpose you aren't the least bit reluctant to dredge up the past.[/quote] If the distinction in relevance to the original question between "recent past" and "two centuries ago" escapes you, then there's no point in continuing a dialogue with you.

[quote]We will get back to my assumption. [/quote] ???

[quote]To the best of my knowledge Mayor Willie Brown has never been accused of assassinating a civil rights leader nor has he been accused of being a closeted homosexual who used the power of his office to gather personal information on thousands of American ciitizens, denied the existence of organized crime, or approved the notorious COINTELPRO program.  [/quote] Okay, I'm accusing Mayor Willie Brown, the ORIGINAL "Slick Willie" of coddling racist murderers and thugs and of being a racist himself. Oh, and while I'm at it, he's also a closet S&M disciple who's into bestiality and likes long walks on the beach. w00t.gif

[quote]Robert Mugabe is a tinhorn tyrant with no standing or following of any measure in America.  Trying to link him to Black Americans is like blaming White Americans for Ian Smith,  Josef Stalin, Ted Bundy and Augusto Pinochet.[/quote] Gee, seems as though you don't like it when somebody else steps out beyond the context of the question, do you? Just like trying to link dead American, English, French, Spanish, Dutch and Portugese slavers from more than two centuries ago seems a bit out of context, eh?

[quote]Idi Amin was another monstrous and murderous despot.  Oh, and he was deposed in 1979.  That was 24 years ago.   Gee, just made it under the wire of your cut-off of "25, 50, 75, 150 years ago" before passing into irrelevance.[/quote] oooohhhhhhh, but he's black.... isn't that enough to indict him, and by extension, every other black man who's ever lived or ever will live? Somebody get the waaaaaaambulance.

[quote]By the way, what riots in Cleveland are you talking about?   When the Cavaliers drafted LeBron James in the NBA Draft last month?   unsure.gif [/quote] Cleveland, Cincinnatti, they're all "C" cities in Ohio. My bad, which is English for mea culpa. whistling.gif

[quote]Reginald Denney was the victim of a violent street crime.  [/quote] Because he was white. [quote]He was attacked by black people.[/quote]A MOB of black people, because he was white.
[quote]He was also rescued and protected by other black people.[/quote] Did they rescue him because he was white, or simply because they where decent people?
[quote]Unlike many black victims of lynching, Mr. Denney survived.[/quote]Like many black victims of lynching, Mr. Denney survived.

[quote]As to your, "hundreds, if not thousands" of whites lynched by blacks in Africa, that's an interesting assertion.  Got any facts to back it up?[/quote]
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32758

[quote]Regarding how many blacks have been lynched by white mobs in the last two decades, I don't know why I should play by the arbitrary cut-off of 20 years,[/quote] Fine, pick an arbitrary cut-off point of your choice, and then we can argue about whether the attitudes and behavior of the folks THEN are representative of NOW. Somehow, I think picking 1910 Alabama isn't going to do much to answer the question of NOW.

[quote]but I can start with the chaining, dragging and decapitation of James Byrd in Jasper, Texas and go from there.   [/quote]Where's the mob? Why doesn't this simply qualify as a "violent street crime"? Maybe you should start with the crime statistics instead, which show that black on white crime rates are far higher than white on black crime. (Black on black crime rates are even higher...)

[quote]I don't know enough about the Zimbabwe African Nation Union Patriotic Front (ZANU PF) to comment intelligently but you didn't help matters by not providing any examples of their black supremacist and racist attitudes against whites.   [/quote] Then find out.

[quote]Will you please provide all of the gentle readers of this forum some examples of how The Black Panthers, [/quote]David Horowitz handles this quite nicely.

[quote]Nation of Islam[/quote]If you're going to claim that the Nation of Islam isn't a racist organization that's going strong today, then you're an ideologue who is immune to the truth.

[quote] and/or the NAACP [/quote] National Association for the Advancement of COLORED People. The name itself is racist, and they haven't changed it.

[quote]have committed acts of murder, assault, arson, intimidation and harassment in a manner similar to that of the Ku Klux Klan? [/quote]As I've already stated, racism is an attitude.

[quote]Please provide me with examples of black hate groups that are dedicated to the eradication of the white race. [/quote]

The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the late of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years -- Louis Farrakhan, City College audience in New York

The white man is not only practicing racism and Zionism and with the prostitution ring, the so-called Jew man with the Jew woman all over the world to make a few dollars. He is also practicing sexism. He's a racist, he's a Zionist, a sexist, and imperialist. He's a no good bastard. He's not a devil, the white man is the Devil -- Khalid Abdul Muhammad, Nation Of Islam & New Black Panther Party

I mean, if black people kill black people every day, why not have a week and kill white people? You understand what I'm saying? In other words, white people, this government and that mayor were well aware of the fact that black people were dying every day in Los Angeles under gang violence. So if you're a gang member and you would normally be killing somebody, why not kill a white person? Do you think that somebody thinks that white people are better, or above dying, when they would kill their own kind? -- Sister Souljah In A Washington Post Interview, 1992

Civil rights laws were not passed to protect the rights of white men and do not apply to them -- Mary Frances Berry, Chairman, US Commission on Civil Rights

I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health -- Charles Barron, a New York city councilman at a reparations rally, 2002

If they don't pay us reparations now, we're talking about scorched earth -- Charles Barron, a New York city councilman at a reparations rally, 2002

I say to Jewish America: Get ready...knuckle up, put your boots on, because we're ready and the war is going down... The real deal is this: Black youth do not want a relationship with the Jewish community or the mainstream white community or the foot shuffling, head-bowing, knee bobbing black community... All you Jews can go straight to hell. -- Quannell X, National Youth minister for the Nation Of Islam, New York Daily News, October 17, 1995

I am going to be like a pit bull. That is the way I'm going to be against the Jews. I am going to bite the tail of the honkies. -- Khalid Abdul Muhammad, Nation Of Islam & New Black Panther Party, at Howard University, 1994

Now, I ask you, which one has more members? The Nation of Islam, or the KKK?

[quote]THAT is the context and the relationship between methods and goals that I choose.[/quote]Well, why didn't you say that you were talking about something other than topic of the thread? Next time you want to do that, start your own thread. This one is about attitudes in the present and near past, as denoted by the tense of the verb in the question. Are, not Were.

[quote]One: There are no black governors nor any state legislative bodies in the U.S. that are predominantly black. [/quote]I didn't say that a black governor has raised my taxes, nor a black LEGISLATIVE BODY, because that wasn't your question. Black legislators have voted to raise my taxes, and their working hard to raise them more. To my knowledge, none of the legislators working to keep the taxes down are black. Mind you, I don't think that the black legislators who are trying to raise my taxes are doing it because I'm white and they're black. No, they're doing it simply because at heart they're part and parcel of a pack of thieving Democrats in cahoots with a gaggle of thieving Republicans. tongue.gif

My prior post to you was all about context. I had hoped that my deliberate use of contextually innapropriate examples of black racism would make you sensitive to context, and that you would realize how far off you have gone. Apparently, I was too optimistic.

You may, if you want, continue looking into the past, rehearsing old wrongs. If you do, you'll only be left further and further behind. Or, you can confront what is REALLY happening NOW, and so help to craft a better future for everybody. I say "really happening now" because even many of your claims of present day discrimination don't hold up. A fine example is the bank loan accusation. IF the banks were discriminating against blacks in giving out loans, then those blacks who did get loans would be "higher quality" borrowers than the whites, a distinction that would show up in the default rates. Guess what? There's no difference in default rates between blacks and whites.

Your choice. When things are even worse for blacks in 30 years than they are now, when the average standard of living of the children of today's immigrants is higher than that of blacks who've been here for two centuries, don't expect much sympathy from those who you've been pilloring ceaselessly for events of which they weren't party.

I'll leave you with this, said at an NAACP function as a rebuke to the NAACP's position on Affirmative Action:

[quote]16-year-old high school senior Cherlina Forshee of Fort Lauderdale, said she wished race would stop being a consideration in jobs and in university admissions.

"African Americans always see everything that happens a certain way, they blame it on race," said Forshee, who is black. "I try to put myself out of race. If you do what you have to do and try your best, you could make it in life. You don't have to worry about being black."[/quote]
nighttimer
Three points:

1. Bikerdad, it's obvious that you have nothing to base your loathing of Mayor Brown on besides your own personal opinion. That may be fine for you, but it doesn't make the case that Brown is a racist or coddles racist murderers. Do the research and make your case. Right now you're just makng unsubstantiated allegations.

2. The Nation of Islam is a black separatist group. The anti-Semitic and racist attitudes of the NOI is it part a response---and a wrong headed one---to white racism. That does not excuse the NOI for its supremacist, homophobic, racist and sexist beliefs. However, you still have failed to provide examples of when the Nation of Islam has instigated or directed violence against whites. Hateful speech is to be detested, but you'll have to provide evidence that the NOI or Black Panther Party have actually carried out acts of violence directed against whites. I'm not immune to the truth. I'm just waiting patiently for you to produce something more substantial than rhetoric.

3. The NAACP chose the word "Colored" as to not be identified as an exclusively Negro-identified organization. The name isn't the least bit racist.

If I really believed you were interested in "crafting a better future for everybody" Bikerdad, I would agree that to "continue looking into the past" is counter-productive and I wouldn't engage in the activity. However, the past is often prologue and we all know what happens to those whom forget the mistakes of the past.

Presently it seems we're stuck in a limbo where blacks are obsessed with the injustices of the past and whites are obsessed with the inequities of the present. Put the two together and how do we move into the future?

At some point I would hope we could reason together and get past our differences to find that common ground. Unfortunately, it seems that presently we're talking at each other and not to each other.
Rumblestrip
Blacks Are Their Own Worst Enemy

Commentary by Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson
President of BOND

QUOTE
Now is the time to drop the notion that the biggest problem facing the black community is racism. Nearly 150 years after the end of slavery, nearly fifty years after the dawn of the civil rights movement, and many years after welfare and affirmative action, it is time for the black community to drop their slave mentality.

Now is the time to admit what we've been trying to hide for decades-that the greatest problem facing the black community is the black community and our stubborn adherence to race as an excuse for failure.

...



Full article at http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_89.shtml

The black community in general needs to get the chip off its shoulder.

Everyone needs to stop hoping for and fighting for "equality." There never has been and never will be such a thing.
Bikerdad
Three points:

QUOTE
1. Bikerdad, it's obvious that you have nothing to base your loathing of Mayor Brown on besides your own personal opinion. 
Actually, I base my disdain, not loathing, on his oily mug appearing in too many otherwise fine movies. cool.gif

QUOTE
That may be fine for you, but it doesn't make the case that Brown is a racist or coddles racist murderers.   Do the research and make your case.  Right now you're just makng unsubstantiated allegations.
Yup. I'm actually "painting him with a gallon of "Guilt by Association", which has more substance than your attacks on Hoover. That was my point, I had hoped the "long walks on the beach" would have given it away... wink.gif

QUOTE
2.   The Nation of Islam is a black separatist group.   The anti-Semitic and racist attitudes of the NOI is it part a response---and a wrong headed one---to white racism. 


What difference does it make that its a "black separatist" group? That's the only type of black Hate group! Per the Southern Poverty Law Center (the folks who designate NOI as a "black separtist" group), "White groups espousing beliefs similar to Black Separatists would be considered clearly racist.

QUOTE
That does not excuse the NOI for its supremacist, homophobic, racist and sexist beliefs.  However, you still have failed to provide examples of when the Nation of Islam has instigated or directed violence against whites.  Hateful speech is to be detested, but you'll have to provide evidence that the NOI or Black Panther Party have actually carried out acts of violence directed against whites.   I'm not immune to the truth.   I'm just waiting patiently for you to produce something more substantial than rhetoric.
Which is it going to be, carried out or merely instigated? Ahh, never mind.

Last July, the spiritual leader of the Nation of Islam, Louis Farakhan, traveled to Baghdad and had this to say: "The Muslim American people are praying to the almighty God to grant victory to Iraq."

Since my standard for racism is ATTITUDE, I don't have to provide evidence that NOI has acted violently, their words are enough to establish their racist credentials. As for the Black Panthers, just read David Horowitz's experiences with them, and the Clarence Thomas article referenced in another thread.

QUOTE
3.  The NAACP chose the word "Colored" as to not be identified as an exclusively Negro-identified organization.   The name isn't the least bit racist.
huh? Its still exclusive of whites. In truth, I have no objection to them using it, since it is a historical term, but don't try to spin us here. The NAACP is about benefitting "America's darker citizens", and yahoos like Julian Bond are moving it headlong towards making the SLPC's Hate Group list, right alongside the NAAWP.

Earlier, you brought up James Byrd. Have you ever heard of Ken Tillery? http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...cle.asp?ID=1337

Now, do the examples of Ken Tillery or the Wichita Massacre prove all blacks are racist? Not at all. What it DOES do though is give credence to the idea that there is a double standard, and over time it becomes harder and harder to believe that there isn't a massive virulent strain of racism that's being covered up, overlooked, etc, among blacks. That's the challenge YOU have to deal with as long as most blacks choose to see the world through the distorted lens of race first.

QUOTE
However, the past is often prologue and we all know what happens to those whom forget the mistakes of the past.
Yup. Remember though, skin color is no protection against making the other guy's mistakes.

QUOTE
Presently it seems we're stuck in a limbo where blacks are obsessed with the injustices of the past and whites are obsessed with the inequities of the present.   Put the two together and how do we move into the future?
Except for the fringe, few whites are really all that concerned with the "inequities" of the present. Its the hypocrisies that rile us up. Whites didn't start talking about it until after 20+ years of being constantly beat up for the past, of having the sins of the past paid for from the flesh of the present. There are no white men who have the ability to undo the past, all we have to deal with is the present and the future.

If we can't even agree on the subject of discussion, whether it will be the past, the present, or the future, then I doubt if we'll make much headway. Perchance we'll have fun trying tho! laugh.gif

Grace and peace, BD
AGiantBean
I think that this pretty much depends on the area. There are many countries in the world where blacks don't have any reason to have racist attidues, so they don't. In the US however, we have quite a long history of slavery and racial segregation. The blacks who lived during the 60's and prior to the 60's have plenty of reason to be extremely racist. The blacks my own age, don't. Nobody refers to them with racist language or attitudes, or treats them in a racist manner. Still, you'll hear things when you're walking around like, "What the F**k you lookin' at, whitey?" Or, "White piece of *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***." These things are said for no reason. Nobody's been mean to them, treated them poorly, or done anything even close to that. I consider this to be not only overly-racist, but overly racist without any reason to be.
erratic_energy
I'm going to try to keep this short... I think racism comes from all sides not just white. My old HS has become increasingly hispanic and black in the past 2 years after I graduated. My little brother and sister both go there. In any case my sister got to the point where she hated going to school, not because of the acedemics but because she was afraid of being made fun of and picked at because she was white (as she had experienced that on numerous occasions). She told me of a black girl in her goverment class who made a blantently racist comment and how she had wanted to stand up and say something but if she had said anything she was afraid A. she'd get beat up and B. she'd be deemed racist, which she is not. My point isnt that blacks are racist or intimidating in that respect on the whole but that SOME blacks (abiet maybe a minority, maybe for the most part in certain areas) are just as, if not more racist than whites, and in many cases certainly more vocal. On another note it took me a full semester freshman year of college to get my black neighbors to even acknowledge my presence when I said hello or nodded in their direction to be friendly. That situation was extremely weird for me as I had sprinted in HS track (a primarily black dominated sporting event) and had become acustom to having a multicultural friend group (which until that time I thought nothing of). When I hit college it seemed the campus was more southern than I thought, it was self-segregated. Even my indian roomate (who I roomed with for 1.5 years) and who came into college with mostly white friends eventually dropped almost all of her white friends and started hanging out with all indians.

I just remembered this and wanted to add it, my ex boyfriend was a military kid, a chubby white boy, growing up and often going to primarily black schools. He was unable to make friends until HS when they settled down in a more mixed area after his father died. For a while (this is according to him, I didnt meet him until much later) he was a bit racist because in the past he had recieved poor treatment from the black peers he had. He said eventually living in a different area and meeting blacks who were not the same as those he had grown up knowing, he came to realize that his racist ideas were wrong and that not ALL blacks were mean etc.

so to answer the question short and sweet I think that Blacks are NOT more racist that whites nor do I think that whites are more racist than blacks. I think with regards to racism it depends on the individual and the society/area that one grows up in. I believe AGiantBean made a similar point in the post previous to mine.
andyjojo87
I think there are more racist black people than racist white people, but when i saw the comment
QUOTE
Ever heard of the Crown Heights Riots? Fueled by Mr. Sharpton


But just to be fair, Al Sharpton is an idiot, so is Jesse Jackson, and the problem is people see these morons on tv and think all black people are like that.
Jaime
Care to provide any support for your opinion, andyjojo? dry.gif
andyjojo87
QUOTE
Care to provide any support for your opinion, andyjojo?


Not really, but because you asked, I'll give an example. Does anyone here remember when Al Sharpton was rallying agianst BurgerKing because they were giving black teenagers (as well as white teenagers) entry level jobs with minimum wage. He was boycotting BurgerKing because he thought they weren't paying black teens enough. People go to their T.V. and see this, and they think "All those black people want is special treatment." (and yes, I thought that to before I got all the facts.)

Just because Sharpton has the loudest voce dosen't mean he should be the only one heard.
TolkienCrazy
I have just picked up on this discussion.....

I would just like to add that maybe instead of being racist, blacks can tend to be self segregating. I have noticed this at my school. At first I felt bad that all the blacks and whites had seperated themselves, but I have grown to realize that most, not all mind you, tend to do things together, and not with whites/other races.
Cephus
QUOTE(andyjojo87 @ Aug 22 2003, 02:57 AM)
Not really, but because you asked, I'll give an example.  Does anyone here remember when Al Sharpton was rallying agianst BurgerKing because they were giving black teenagers (as well as white teenagers) entry level jobs with minimum wage.  He was boycotting BurgerKing because he thought they weren't paying black teens enough.  People go to their T.V. and see this, and they think "All those black people want is special treatment."  (and yes, I thought that to before I got all the facts.)

A couple of other examples of Sharpton's racism:

In 1991, Sharpton incited riots, terrorism, and murder against whites and Jews in Crown Heights, New York. Leading 400 protesters and stirring mobs, four nights of violent rock- and bottle-throwing and the stabbing-murder of Yankel Rosenbaum, resulted from Sharpton's shouts of "diamond merchants" and his followers' chants of "kill the Jew." In 1995, Sharpton incited the burning down of "Freddie's Fashion Mart," which he called a "white interloper" business in Harlem. No matter that the store employed mostly blacks and Hispanics, and that two people – a black and a Hispanic – were killed in the Sharpton-inspired arson, while he led chants of "Bloodsucking Jews!"

Sharpton has also been strangely silent in every case of blacks abusing whites and Jews. Indeed, like all another self-anointed civil-rights crusaders in the country, he said nothing in response to the October 18, 1995 killing of Richard Will, a white man who was doused with lighter fluid and set afire by a group of black youths in a Chicago suburb. Sharpton was similarly silent in May 1997, when a black member of a Nation Of Islam offshoot viciously beat a white New York woman named Laura Zirinsky, injuring the woman so badly that she needed emergency brain surgery to save her life. Even though the perpetrator was carrying a notebook filled with anti-white writings advocating a race war, Sharpton never once vowed "to make a national example" of this racially motivated abomination. In fact, Sharpton had long been an unapologetic supporter of the infamous Khalid Muhammad, a Black Muslim whose vulgar diatribes against whites did not preclude Sharpton from calling him "a very articulate and courageous brother."

Nor did Sharpton feel "fired up" enough to condemn a 1997 incident in which six black Michigan youths fatally shot two white males in the head, then forced a white female to perform oral sex on them while they sodomized her, and finally murdered her as well. Neither was Sharpton's patience for injustice tested in January 1998, when a fifteen-year-old black gangster shot and killed Vitaly Bereslavsky, a hardworking Latvian immigrant in Brooklyn. When investigators later sought to ascertain the motives of the killer, who had robbed his dead victim of the two dollars in his pocket and promptly spent the money on fruit punch and cupcakes, the remorseless youth explained tersely, "I was hungry." Sharpton, however, had no appetite for publicly denouncing this fiend.

Nor did Sharpton take to the airwaves early in 2000, after a black Pennsylvania man named Ronald Taylor gunned down five innocent whites inside an apartment building. Though Taylor's residence was laden with anti-white and anti-Jewish writings, and though Taylor had candidly declared his intent to "kill all white people," Sharpton felt no inclination to publicly condemn either the crime or its racist roots. Nor did he have anything to say in April 2000 after a black man, who had previously been incarcerated for a hammer attack on a white stranger to whom he referred only as "whitey," pitilessly slit the throat of an eight-year-old white boy named Kevin Shifflett

Source: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Print...ble.asp?ID=3484
countrockula
QUOTE
I would just like to add that maybe instead of being racist, blacks can tend to be self segregating. I have noticed this at my school. At first I felt bad that all the blacks and whites had seperated themselves, but I have grown to realize that most, not all mind you, tend to do things together, and not with whites/other races.


That's a common perceptual mistake that people in majority groups make. I forget the name of the social theory that describes this, but the theory itself runs along the lines that if there are one hundred people in a room - ninety white and ten black - the black people have to band together to prevent having their racial indentity subsumed. In that situation a black person who chose friends completely randomly (without any regard for someone's race) would have almost no black friends.

Another way to put it is that white people have the luxury of not having to consider race as a factor in social relationships, since the majority of people in America are white.
Cephus
QUOTE(countrockula @ Sep 12 2003, 10:40 PM)
That's a common perceptual mistake that people in majority groups make.  I forget the name of the social theory that describes this, but the theory itself runs along the lines that if there are one hundred people in a room - ninety white and ten black - the black people have to band together to prevent having their racial indentity subsumed.  In that situation a black person who chose friends completely randomly (without any regard for someone's race) would have almost no black friends.

Which is half the problem. You don't see a lot of white people worrying about their 'racial identity'. We don't base who we are on the color of our skin. Many blacks/hispanics do. Skin color should have NOTHING TO DO with who you are, it's ludicrous to purposely make an issue of your skin color and then claim people are being prejudiced against you because of it.
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